Glass for cabinet door question

[Dan Chouinard]

I need to make some true divided lite kitchen cabinet doors. Is 1/8 or 1/16 inch thick glass typical?

[George Bokros]

I believe 1/*' glass is typical

George

[Mel Fulks]

The single strength is common in old work .Been a long time since I read code requirements ,but I think it needs to be
tempered glass .Few ,if any ,glass companies will temper the thin glass.They also usually have fairly big minimum size to
keep it from getting caught in conveyer and breaking ,I would find out what that is. This part of code is federal law.

[Peter Quinn]

1/16" is more typical for cabinet doors, tempered is required if it swings. Ulitmately it doesn't matter, except regarding weight, modern lass is quite clear, you could hardly tell the difference.

[Bob Glenn]

Worked in a glass tempering plant for thirty years. Eighth inch glass is minimum thickness for tempering. Eighth inch glass is also know as double strength, single strength is a bit thinner. I've never seen single strength glass that was tempered.

[Tom Ewell]

I'd go 1/8" tempered if feasible but I have used 1/8" 'art' glass in several doors (my own) that have made it 10 years or so, the safety factor is mitigated somewhat by being on wall cabinets where the little folk might not get to them.

Just did a display case with large glass, set it up using these Freud (http://www.freudtools.com/p-126-glass-panel-cabinet-door-bit-set.aspx) cutters. (Lee Valley has the spline for reasonable.) Makes for easier glass replacement should the need arise.

Of course, there are enumerable ways to mount glass but tempered would be a primary concern and as mentioned, 1/8" looks to be the minimum.

[Peter Quinn]

Another option we use is 1/8" laminated glass, its cheaper, very strong, blocks UV rays which is good for display cabs, and the local glass shop stocks it and can cut it to order, unlike tempered which must be cut then tempered, longer lead times.

[Rick Alexander]

I put single strength non tempered on my son's kitchen cabs. I was trying to keep it as reasonable as I could to save money plus just seemed like 1/8 would be pretty heavy. I did have the one upper corner one crack after about 6 months. I don't know if it was because it was so much taller than the others (42 inches) or because I didn't put soft close hinges on there or what. They put their drinking glasses in there as well so maybe they didn't get one all the way into the cabinet - don't know. Anyway I replace that glass and put soft close on all the doors and so far so good- going on 3 years now. I always just figured if I had a problem I could always fix it later and so far it's worked just fine. I'd also make sure you put those little clear bumpers on there - top and bottom so they won't bounce against the FF.

[Mel Fulks]

The laws ,penalties ,and permanent liability are pretty strong. That said ,I have seen some glass doors put out for bid with
no details on glass and with admonition work would have to be fast and cheap. Ive seen some irritation from employers a few times when I ordered glass and specd out tempered glass where I knew it was required.

[Peter Quinn]

The requirement for safety glass on moving doors is not to make the doors stronger, nobody cares about the aesthetics of a cabinet door with cracked glass. The requirement is for safety, behind staircases broken glass is one of the single greates dangers in a home. Best case scenario it never breaks, you live a long happy life, the end. Worst case scenario, and it has happened, the glass breaks, pieces of falling glass cut a child or person standing net by, they bleed a lot. Or they were in motion, this cause the glass breakage, they bleed a lot......etc. Or the next home owner is not as careful or coordinated and breaks the glass.....they bleed a lot......safety glass is not astronomical in price, it's a good value in terms of insurance.

[Ellen Benkin]

Well said, Peter.

[Bob Glenn]

We used to have to certify our tempering furnaces when we made a change over from one glass thickness to another. The certification as required by the Glass Tempering Association, was to temper a 34 by 76 inch piece of glass, then mount it in a frame and swing a leather punching bag full of lead shot into it from a designated height. This test was to simulate a one hundred pound kid running full speed into a closed patio door. Usually, the glass did not break. Strong stuff as long as you don't hit the edges.

[Jim Barstow]

I use tempered glass everywhere. How would you feel if some got hurt because you tried to save a little on the glass? Especially if the injured one was a family member.

[Jamie Buxton]

Geez, the guy is making divided lite doors for kitchen cabinets -- presumably uppers. The panes are probably 6"x8", and they are captured in a wood frame. If they're 1/8"-thick glass, they're going to be darn difficult to break. Safety glass is overkill.

[Lee Schierer]

I would like to see the text from the uniform building code that says inside cabinet doors in a home kitchen cabinet need safety glass. Aren't they talking about safety cabinets, entry doors, glass walls, store fronts and fire doors not kitchen cabinets? I know there is an exception for beveled glass and leaded glass.

[Jeff Duncan]

Yeah FWIW I don't think upper cabinet glass doors have ever had to be tempered. I've done several kitchens with 'art' glass and I don't think you could get it tempered if you wanted to? I've also used both 1/16" and 1/8" glass and can't really say there's an advantage either way. They're both cheap and easily available, they both cut pretty easily, and if installed correctly and not abused, they'll both last a lifetime more than the average kitchen......which I believe is something like 20+/- years:o

Now entry doors and side lites are a whole differnet kettle of fish and are dictated by codes.

good luck,
JeffD

[Leo Graywacz]

I usually use 1/8" myself (double strength) but on occasion I have used 3/32 (single strength). I've never seen 1/16" glass

And I'm sure it's a regional thing for the tempered glass in the uppers. In all the shops I've worked at we've never put in a pc of tempered glass in a swinging cabinet door.

I know that anything below 18" needs to be tempered in my area.

[Mark Bolton]

+1 . I've installed lots of glass doors from major manufactures, diamond, Kraft made, Conestoga, and so I. Art glass or not they're not tempered. The cost of a heavily glassed kitchen would choke you. We commonly use art and leaded glass and none of its tempered. As already mentioned, it's overkill, but that's no shock.

[Peter Quinn]

Ok, did some research, apparently the code does not address cabinet doors, so you are free to do what you want, or what you think is best. I know my kids, I'd use bullet proof glass.

[Richard McComas]

I can't quote from codes. I've worked for the past 15 years in the maintenance carpentry shop with about a year of that time in glass shop for Anchorage School District. We replace broken windows and glass in display case and cabinets quite often. Plus we build a lot of display case and cabinet with glass doors.

All we have ever used is laminated glass of different thickness depending on the project. When replacing existing broken glass I can only recall running across temper glass on two occasions.

[Leo Graywacz]

Replacing glass in a school or gov owned building has nothing to do with replacing glass in a residential kitchen. I am sure because of insurance and regulation for the schools and gov buildings that they would require tempered glass because you are dealing with the public.

[Mel Fulks]

Peter,I'm with you on this one . Don't you just hate it when your opinion is not the law ? I know I do.

[Richard McComas]

Replacing glass in a school or gov owned building has nothing to do with replacing glass in a residential kitchen. I am sure because of insurance and regulation for the schools and gov buildings that they would require tempered glass because you are dealing with the public.Maybe you miss read or I didn't make it clear. We don't use tempered glass and its' rare that I find any in the schools.

[Leo Graywacz]

Guess I misread. Oopsie.

[Mark Bolton]

How in the heck would you make a tempered leaded or decorative panel? How much would it cost for simple beveled glass AND tempered? Cut and fit a leaded panel and send each piece out to be tempered and the ship it back for assembly? Insane. Custom beveled glass is a fortune as is. Add in tempering and your in goofy land. It's just nuts. A single glass cabinet door, perhaps arched, or odd shaped, beveled, etc., would cost a fortune just for the glass ?!?! I've done kitchens with a dozen or more glass doors. It'd put it out of the realm of possibility.

Im sure we all grew up as I did in a home with virtually no tempered, safety, laminated, whatever, glass in them what so ever. Are you dead? Have long lost childhood friends who were severely mamed or bled to death from a freak cabinet door accident? It's nuts.

It's no wonder the insurance companies are rich when they have a chunk of the population believing the malarkey. Likely a small percentage of paid claims get the insurance companies to lean on the regulatory agencies to implement safety glass for one reason, to pay less claims. It has nothing to do with their concern for their customers safety. Then people get on the fear wagon and the cost goes up for all of us.

We're all alive and well. Where's the fire?

[Ole Anderson]

I just did two glass doors in a china cab for my home using a designer glass called "Waterfall". I have no idea if it was tempered or not. 1/8" thick. Glass company knew what it was being used for. Held in place in the Hickory frame with a bead of crystal clear silicone. Blum soft close hinges.

[Jim Barstow]

I use "antique" glass in all my cabinets. It is made using modern techniques but has the irregularities of old glass. It is more expensive than normal glass but looks much better. I have it sent out for tempering which doubles the price. I got cut by I piece of non-tempered glass in a door and I'm not willing to risk someone getting hurt to save a couple bucks.

[Mark Bolton]

I use "antique" glass in all my cabinets. It is made using modern techniques but has the irregularities of old glass. It is more expensive than normal glass but looks much better. I have it sent out for tempering which doubles the price. I got cut by I piece of non-tempered glass in a door and I'm not willing to risk someone getting hurt to save a couple bucks.

Its great practice without a doubt but if your competing against commercial cabinets you have to operate in an apples for apples world. If your customer is willing to pay the up-charge for tempered glass thats perfectly fine. Its a great thing to offer as an up-sell. But there is simply no way it could be offered by default. We are finishing up a small office unit for a job which has four doors in the upper section with leaded panels. They are a simple pattern (only 9 individual pieces per door) however each glass panel, being hand made, will have pieces that are slightly unique. It would require us cutting and fitting the entire panel, then prior to foiling and soldering the panel together we would have to send all the small pieces out for tempering. They would return unmarked so it would be like a jigsaw puzzle to re-assemble. I would guess 10x'ing the price for the glass panels wouldnt cover the cost of tempering, shipping, and time lost.

I dont know that Ive ever done a project where the customer would pay the upcharge when likely every commercial cabinet door sold with glass doesnt incorporate tempered glass. At least Ive never seen one.

[Frank Drew]

I would, and always have, put some version of safety glass in cabinet doors if the opening is large enough and at a height that a person, or large portion of that person, could fall through. Divided light uppers, not such a hazard, IMO. In my experience in emergency medicine, table glassware and crockery, not to mention the always risky kitchen mandoline, are statistically a much greater household risk for lacerations.

(And I don't want to hear about safety from anyone who isn't religious about seat belt use!)

[Mel Fulks]

Mark,unless they have recently changed the tempering process the small pane scenario is not even possible. As I said the other day ,you need to check with the different dealers as to how small they will attempt. Glass goes through oven on rollers, small pane corners get caught and break,requiring shutdown and clean out . Any size they won't do requires the laminated safety glass,which costs more.

[Mark Bolton]

I agree Mel and was really just making a point. There is no way I'd ever walk into my glass shop with a box of pieces. Oddly I was at my glass shop today picking up some sheets for this job and I ran this by them and at least in my area you can't even send glass out to be tempered. They will only provide shapes from a pattern or dimensioned drawing. They don't temper art glass period and didnt see any point in doing so. So other than some patterns available in tempered your only options are the norms.

I have nothing against tempered for someone wanting it or the customer willing to pay for it but at least in my experience other than where its required by code it's likely not going to get paid for. Someone building something for themselves is one thing but to think that all cabinet door glass should be tempered is a bit of a stretch.

[Pat Barry]

Pardon my ignorance. Is window glass tempered? Is it laminated? I don't mean the stuff on a sliding patio door, just your standard double hung window.

[Mel Fulks]

Usually not tempered ,it depends on exactly where it's used whether it is required by law. Most of the double pane units are tempered just so they can be used anywhere. Code requires tempering or laminated in doors ,windows close to steps,sidelights up to (can't remember what height),'etc. With the modern wide use of factory door and window units most of us have to re-read code requirements when doing the more unusual custom jobs.

[Dan Chouinard]

The rabbit on the back of the doors is a strong 1/8" deep. Plan is to keep 1/8" thick glass from rattling with four dots of clear painters caulk, then applied molding to finish. Is there an elegant way to apply a removable grid of molding to the backside of glass doors?