Add slow speed bench grinder or worksharp 3000?

[Mike Leung]

I have shapton ceramic stones 1k 2k 5k, a diamond reference lapping plate, and a dmt course diamond plate. I need to do some angle changes on some chisels so I need to add some speed. Would a worksharp or a bench grinder be better to supplement my stones? Or would a wet system be best? What would you do? Your advice is much appreciated.

[Chris Griggs]

6" dry grinder is all you need. The 6" variable speed porter cable that Lowes sells it a great buy if you don't want to spend a ton.

[Don Jarvie]

Slow speed grinder. The PC mention above come 8 inch also. You need to add a better tool rest though.

[Frederick Skelly]

I looked hard at worksharp in the spring to supplement my stones. It looks like a reasonable tool for a hobbyist. And Stumpy Nubbs had some clever add ons you could build.

But the real reason I wanted a machine was to speed the really tedious stuff like repairing a bevel, setting a new bevel angle, lapping the back of a plane iron, etc. And I got the impression doing those sorts of things werent too much faster on a worksharp than i can do by hand. (Maybe your thread will correct my previous impression- hope so because i really liked the worksharp.)

So Chris has a good idea on the grinder. Match it with a good honing jig and youd be set. Heck, i think i just talked MYSELF into it.

But Im keeping my stones ; )

Fred

[Mike Leung]

So using a grinding wheel will not be a problem to set a bevel and finish on stones? I was worried that the grinder will leave a concave surface and then I would have to do a lot of work on the stones to flatten the concave surface. I like the price of a bench grinder. Even decent stones cost more. I think the worksharp should be faster than setting angles or doing repairs by hand. Does anyone have experience on both systems? I am leaning towards the grinder now.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Lee Valley sells a great tool rest (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=32972&cat=1,43072,45938) for the grinder and for a bit more you can get the Norton wheel specifically designed for grinding chisels and plane blades.

I would look out for a second hand grinder and then add the above.

[Kees Heiden]

I would buy a high speed 6" dry grinder, not a slow speed one. They are much cheaper. Invest in a good coarse stone, like 46 grit. The blue Norton 3X stones are very good. And buy one of these diamond T-shape stone dressers, so you can keep the stone clean easilly. There is a bit of a learning curve of course. Grind with light pressure, keep a finger just behind the edge to feel for heat, move the iron from left to right constantly and dip it in a cup of water when you feel the steel gets warm (not hot, warm). Dress the stone occasionally to keep it clean and expose fresh grit. I grind almost to the edge, so I can put it on a 1000 grit waterstone and raise a wireedge in 10 -20 strokes.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I had a 6" high speed grinder with a Norton 3X wheel (80 grit). When the Worksharp came out, I was intrigued and bought one. It did work well on chisels, but since this was pre-large blade jig time, not so well on larger plane blades. I sold it, for the simple reason it never matched the speed of the grinder and honing on a hollow grind. I also got the blades sharper on the hollow grind.

Now I have a slow speed 8" grinder, with a similar Norton wheel. I don't use any sharpening jig after the grinder. With it being maybe 4 or 5 years after selling the Worksharp, I don't miss it at all. I would opt for a wheel a bit coarser than the 80 though - maybe something around 60 grit.

[Chris Griggs]

You don't need to flatten out the concave surface. In fact you want it, it minimizes the amount of metal you need to work on the stones, and facilitates easy freehand honing. If you are using a jig and microbevels those things don't really matter for helping you, but they won't hurt either.

As far a the PC grinder goes I still have the stock gray wheel on mine (though I just bought a nicer one), and still am using the tool rests that came on it. You do not NEED to replace either, though and upgrade of both would likely improve your experience and make things easier. The biggest problems with the rests that they have "teeth" in them so they lock into set positions. I filed the teeth off mine but you can also put a washer in them so that you have continuous motion instead of locked positions.

The variable speed grinders are nice because you can set them slow when you are first learning to grind, but once you get comfortable, you will probably want to use them at full speed for faster grinding.

The only reason not to use a wheel grinder is if you specifically just prefer flat bevels or if you have a large number of japanese tools that you wouldn't want to dry grind with a hollow. I only have a few japanese tools so when I need to reset the flat bevel on them I just jig them on and put them on a coarse stone or some PSA sandpaper stuck down to granite.

A lot of it depends on what you want to do. If you plan to learn to free hand hone (this is by no means a requirement) a wheel grinder is worth its weight in gold. If you just want something that lets reset primary bevels and grind out chips without really having to put much thought into it or learn a new skill (a valid desire) and if money is not a major concern then something like WS3k may be the way to go.

[Archie England]

More speed = greater chance for drawing the temper. More speed = faster restores. High speed grinder with a very low grit stone might do everything you want (resetting bevels). Your Shaptons will eat away the hollow very quickly; but, as ChrisG stated, that hollow can actually benefit your freehand sharpening. In the end, all these above options work! Pick one and thoroughly learn to use it. Eventually, you might own a bunch of various "methods." :)

[Pinwu Xu]

If you check the early Fine woodworking, there was article talking about sharpening with 46-grit grinding wheel, and the speed
was not mentioned (so it's the high speed one)

[Joey Naeger]

I had access to a workshop at my job for a couple of months. The bevels it produces are slightly dubbed and difficult to hone free hand. I much prefered to use it to as a stand alone sharpener. We all called it the quick and dirty because it worked, but the edge was not as precisely shaped as one honed on a stone. The tools that I continued to hone by hand received a hollow grind from a 6" grinder. I currently don't have access to a worksharp and don't miss it.

[paul cottingham]

I have the veritas version of the worksharp and quite like it, tho not as much as I thought I would. I do use it to grind fresh primary bevels, and micro bevels, but I still finish with an 8000 grit stone, as I get a better edge that way. To be honest, I would probably sell it, but my hands are too wrecked to establish primary bevels any other way.

[Harold Burrell]

Slow speed grinder. The PC mention above come 8 inch also. You need to add a better tool rest though.

How about this (since we're talking about it)?

You go with something like this: http://www.lowes.com/pd_80500-46069-PCB575BG_0__?productId=3162497&Ntt=bench+grinder&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dbench%2Bgrinder&facetInfo= and use a 6" wheel instead (to slow it down even more)?

[george wilson]

I have never had a slow speed bench grinder in all the years I've been working. Just learn to grind. I dip a tool in water,and leave drops on the blade. Keep water drops near the THIN edge. As soon as the water sizzles,I quench instantly. The thinner the edge becomes,the more diligent you need to be. The most useful thing is to get as coarse a white Norton wheel as you can find. I like a 36 grit. Get a diamond to draw across the wheel to sharpen it. You will be fine.

Large grinders need to be slow as the peripheral speed of the larger wheel is moving faster than that of a 6" wheel.

From the picture,I can't tell if the variable speed Porter Cable grinder has double jointed tool rests like my old flat faced Craftsman grinders from the 60's. If they are double jointed,they are MUCH better than a single hinged tool rest.

[Chris Griggs]

That would be waste Harold. If you really want slow speed the variable speed 6" gets plenty slow as is, and you can very easily grind at full speed without fear of burning the edge. In my opinion WAY TO MUCH is made of the risk of drawing temper. Keep your fingers somewhat near the edge and you will feel the heat well before you burn the edge. I had NEVER ground a blade before I got my 6" PC grinder and I was using it at full speed, with the gray wheel and rests (that the magazines say you need to throw away) within a week of getting it without any problems. I will occasionally burn a corner ever so slightly if I'm just flat out being to aggressive but it is not AT ALL hard to avoid. Burning and edge is not something one should fear, it is simply something one should be aware of having the potential to do. I do think a more friable wheel is nice just because its faster, as it both grinds faster and requires less quenching and dressing, but it is not a requirement.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just a big believer in a standard 6" grinder, and I rant sometimes about it because I kept putting off buying one thinking that I had to be prepared to spend $200 or so just to get started ($40-$100 for the grinder, $50-$100 for tool rests, and $40 for a new wheel, plus more if I wanted to balance the wheels). This is not and was not the case, and I'm soooooooooooooo glad I finally just bought one for the $80 or whatever it cost and used it as is...my only regret ever was that I didn't do it sooner. That PC or equivalent will work off the shelf with the gray wheels and stock rests. It comes with a dresser as well as a little water dish, and has everything you need to get started hollow grinding. I'm not saying not to buy after market rests, and I'm not saying not to buy more friable wheels...they are legit improvements, but know that in spite of what the mags say, they are not a requirement.

Happy grinding. Rant over.

[paul cottingham]

How about this (since we're talking about it)?

You go with something like this: http://www.lowes.com/pd_80500-46069-PCB575BG_0__?productId=3162497&Ntt=bench+grinder&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dbench%2Bgrinder&facetInfo= and use a 6" wheel instead (to slow it down even more)?
I have the delta branded version of that grinder,and quite like it. I have a white 8" Norton wheel on it, and run it very slowly. I still need to quench a lot.
If i were to do it again, i would probably look for a good, old used American made grinder. Stick a white wheel on it, and hand it down to my grandchildren when I can no longer work wood.

[Chris Griggs]

From the picture,I can't tell if the variable speed Porter Cable grinder has double jointed tool rests like my old flat faced Craftsman grinders from the 60's. If they are double jointed,they are MUCH better than a single hinged tool rest.

If by double jointed you mean that it has 2 placed that can be loosened and repositioned then yes it is double jointed. The lower one mostly serves to slide the rest in and out and the upper one adjusts the angle. They not great rests, just cheap aluminum, but with the teeth filed off they are very adjustable and capable (well the right is, the left has one of those stupid drill bit grooves in it)

The cheaper $30 or so grinders (like the skill lowes sells) tend to have single pivot points and very limited adjustibility. One would NEED an after market rest for those. In fact if one was going to buy an aftermarket rest anyway, I'd be inclined to think that it might be worthwhile to save some money on the grinder and just get one of the uber cheap $30 ones. I haven't used the Skill so I can't say for sure that it functions as well as the PC as far as the bearings and motor are concerned, but my impression was/is that the extra you pay for the PC is more about the little conveniences/add ons, and not necessarily an improved "heart" to the grinder (again though, haven't used the $30 ones so can't say that for sure)

[glenn bradley]

I am an avid WS3K user but, I would not use it to make major changes to profiles. You could but, a coarse grinder is better suited. If you are changing the leading edge from 25* to 30* as a sort of El Grande secondary bevel, the WS3K is your tool. JMHO.

[Jim Koepke]

My electric sharpening system is the Veritas Mk II. I am not sure if it is equivalent to the Worksharp or if the Worksharp is equivalent to it.

It has been quite useful for almost all of my work.

At times a grinding wheel could be an effective alternative. Especially for some of my regularly sharpened tools like a shovel or scythe.

jtk

[Matthew N. Masail]

I took Georges recomendation at the time and I have been very happy:


- 6inch grinder
- tool rest (I went with the veritas - for easy adjustability)
- coarse white wheel (I found 46grit I think)
- diamond dresser
- learn to grind - and the white wheel help with this


the only thing I plan to add is a jig for the diamond dresser that will allow my to true\refresh the wheel without having to change the tool rest position.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

the only thing I plan to add is a jig for the diamond dresser that will allow my to true\refresh the wheel without having to change the tool rest position.

Interested in seeing what you come up with, Matthew, this thought has crossed my mind a few times.

[Prashun Patel]

My take's a little different:

Since I discovered cheap 6" diamond lapidary plates that fit the Worksharp 3000, it's much easier for me to establish a primary bevel on a flat blade. the port below is fast for chisels. I sharpen anything wider than the port above the wheel with a honing guide. I can go straight from the WS to my Shaptons.

I have a 200g wheel on my WS and it sharpens as fast as any bench grinder can. I have never been successful at using a grinder to get a square edge on flat blades. Everyone else seems to be able to do it, but not me.

[george wilson]

A USEFUL note: If you use a diamond tipped wheel dresser,tilt the diamond a bit down hill at the wheel. Presenting it at an up hill angle will shatter the diamond. Diamonds are VERY brittle.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I started with sand-paper, had good results.... and then I needed to rehab some problematic items so I purchased a WorkSharp. I had some OK luck with it, but not great. I know some people that really like it. My biggest problem was with wider blades getting the angle to be exactly 90 degrees. Probably just me, but, I gave it to a friend who had nothing and he claims to have good luck with it. Of course, he also had never had any luck with hand planes until I gave him some and he said "I think my problem was that I just did not know what it meant to be sharp".

So, why was I OK with dumping my WorkSharp? Because I purchased a Tormek slow speed wet grinder. I usually put a hollow grind on it, and then I don't need to mess with it on the Tormek until I have worn down the hollow grind on my water stones. With the hollow grind, it is very fast to polish up by hand.

I will admit that I also have a dry grinder that I purchased from WoodCraft. It is mostly a piece of junk, but it was very inexpensive junk and I use it to do very fast adjustment when things are seriously out of whack.

I like the wet grinder because I don't need to worry about burning the tip and it is much faster than by hand. I can't polish the back on my tormek to save my soul. I have, however, gouged a few backs on my test chisels trying. Then again, I had trouble polishing the back on the WorkSharp, but I believe that at least one person has claimed on the forum here that they did this with no problems (I could be mistaken).

If you happen to live near me, or just want to make a long drive, we can try out a few things and see what you like.... but my WorkSharp currently lives in the great state of Minnesota, far from me.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks for that! I always do it that way or straight just cause it seems a smarter cutting angle , but I didn't know what you said.


Joshua I'll be sure to post it. might do it soon but I'm re-doing my shop into "simplicity" so don't know for sure.

[Hilton Ralphs]

A USEFUL note: If you use a diamond tipped wheel dresser,tilt the diamond a bit down hill at the wheel. Presenting it at an up hill angle will shatter the diamond. Diamonds are VERY brittle.

Thanks for the tip George!

[Chris Scimone]

Mike, for what you're looking to do (changing bevel angles on chisels) i think a regular speed 6 inch grinder will be perfect. George's advice about the water drops is all you need to keep from blowing temper. I learned a lot from Larry Williams 'Sharpening Profiled Hand Tools' DVD.

One key thing he taught me- you need a grinding and a sharpening solution. I got a beast of a 6" grinder for 20 bucks off craigslist, added the Veritas grinding rest and kept the 36 grit Norton wheel. I keep a metal polishing wheel (http://www.bealltool.com/products/buffing/polishwheel.php) on the other side for getting rust off damn near anything, been one of the best shop investments I've made.

With something like this for your quick and dirty grinds, your system of choice (water/oil/work/scary/tormek sharp) will get you the rest of the way.

my 2 cents,
Chris

[Curt Putnam]

I will probably never learn to grind well - shaky hands (condition is called essential tremors.) I am successful with a WS3000. I use the Wide Blade Attachment and can sharpen/hone anything up to an iron for a # 8. I usually have the leather honing wheel mounted. Power stropping is a real kick and get things sharp fast. I also have a Delta 1 x 42" belt sander/grinder upon which I usually keep a leather belt mounted. It gets knives very sharp, very fast. Just more power stropping. Most of my chisels have the primary bevel where I want it - which means I seldom want to use power. In fact, the more important the tool is to me, the less likely I am to use power. One can make mistakes faster and bigger with power. JMO & YMMV

[Mike Henderson]

I have an 8" slow speed grinder and the WorkSharp. For establishing a bevel, I prefer the WorkSharp with a 6" diamond wheel, primarily because it's too easy to overheat a blade on the slow speed grinder. Like Prashun, I then take my blade to a water stone and put a microbevel on it.

Fast, very little chance of overheating the blade, and produces very sharp results.

Mike

[Kenneth Walton]

I have the worksharp, and a collection of diamond plates.

I never had a problem working the bevels on the diamond plates with a veritas mkII jig. I really got the worksharp for lapping the backs of chisels and irons.

Unfortunately I've found that no matter how flat I hold the blade, I end up with a significant back bevel off the worksharp that takes forever to work away by hand. I should've gotten a grinder for easier freehand bevel honing, and just stuck with lapping by hand!

[bill tindall]

Some recommended a 6" grinder. The grit structure and bond friability is vastly more important than wheel speed in preventing tool heating. Hence, before purchasing a 6" wheel determine if there are a good selection of wheels and rests for it. I would recommend an 8" grinder and the Wolverine rest, or a home made equivalent. (A large flat rest is critical.) Then you have available a multitude of 7" surface grinder wheels which are cheap from any of the tool room supply houses, Enco,, MSC, Travers, etc. . With a good wheel and rest. and some practice, it is easily possible to grind your tools at 3600 rpm. I would start with about an H bond wheel, and pink 80 grit. You can get such a wheel in 1/2" for 10$. Then crown it for tool grinding. Swing tool across rest engaging the wheel to the tool just past the leading edge and carying through to the trailing edge (I call it touch and go like practice landings). Then repeat the other direction. Repeat back and forth till you are done.



I never grind to the edge. Once I have the edge straight, this straight edge is the target to hollow grind up to but not touching so as to not loose this reference line.

If you want the ultimate in slow speed, handy for lathe tools but unnecessary for plane blades, get a 3 phase grinder and run it from a variable frequency drive. It can be slowed to a speed that you can watch it go around.

[Mike Holbrook]

Two other options. 1) The newer belts available for belt sanders, 3M Trizact, Gator..., last a very long time and create much less heat. I find I can "grind" a little easier with a belt sander than a wheel grinder. 2) The new DMT Dia-Flat Lapping Plate is a beast of a diamond plate, although it isn't cheap it is cheaper than a Veritas MK II, Tormek, Work Sharp 3000...The DMT Dia-Flat has the advantage of working with whatever methods one uses with their stones or other diamond plates.

[Gary Herrmann]

What is your budget? I think WorkSharps are about $200. You can get a grinder for less. You can also drop a grand for a Baldor.

[Mike Leung]

200-300 would be a good range. The makita 9820-2 wet sharpening wheel looks good too but the chisel port on the WS looks convenient. The grinders are much more affordable. I am used to sharpening flat bevels on my stones.
I would like to use one of these systems for Japanese chisels, plane blades and kitchen knives.

The posts form everyone are great. I am learning quite a bit from them. Thanks

[Jim Neeley]

FWIW, I do NOT recommend the WS for polishing backs of chisels. I have one and tried it on a dozen L-N chisel blades. I'm not in the process of reworking them by hand to fix what the WS left me with. On other than a chisel disaster I'd not go with them as they are prone to rounding the edges, especially a problem when its the leading edge. I don't currently know what I'll end up with once I get through actually *flattening* them by hand as some may be too thin to be practical.

A grinder, on the other hand, is an excellent tool for putting a hollow bevel on the front. Once the back is polished and a hollow bevel is on the front, about 20-30 seconds on a 1K Shapton to add a secondary bevel (just until there is a burr) and another 20-30 seconds on a 16 or 30k to add a tertiary, plus a couple of secs with a ruler at 16 or 30k to remove the burr and it's at least surgical sharp.

Since you aren't polishing the whole face, the coarser the stone the cooler it runs; my times above are based on a 46 grit 8-inch slow-speed grinder/wheel combination for the primary.

Until Rob explained to me *why* it works I woyldn't have believed it, but it does!!

Jim

[Mike Leung]

FWIW, I do NOT recommend the WS for polishing backs of chisels. I have one and tried it on a dozen L-N chisel blades. I'm not in the process of reworking them by hand to fix what the WS left me with. On other than a chisel disaster I'd not go with them as they are prone to rounding the edges, especially a problem when its the leading edge. I don't currently know what I'll end up with once I get through actually *flattening* them by hand as some may be too thin to be practical.

A grinder, on the other hand, is an excellent tool for putting a hollow bevel on the front. Once the back is polished and a hollow bevel is on the front, about 20-30 seconds on a 1K Shapton to add a secondary bevel (just until there is a burr) and another 20-30 seconds on a 16 or 30k to add a tertiary, plus a couple of secs with a ruler at 16 or 30k to remove the burr and it's at least surgical sharp.

Since you aren't polishing the whole face, the coarser the stone the cooler it runs; my times above are based on a 46 grit 8-inch slow-speed grinder/wheel combination for the primary.

Until Rob explained to me *why* it works I woyldn't have believed it, but it does!!

Jim

Thanks Jim. I'll remember to flatten backs on my shaptons by hand. Thanks to all for sharing techniques.

[Jim Neeley]

Thanks Jim. I'll remember to flatten backs on my shaptons by hand. Thanks to all for sharing techniques.

FWIW, flattening backs while watching a football or other game makes the process fly.. and provides some obvious accomplishment to your Bride while watching the game. Perception is everything!! <g>

[Jim Koepke]

I'll remember to flatten backs on my shaptons by hand.

What works for me on this is adhesive backed 80 grit roll stock on a hunk of granite, 4' long acquired from a monument maker.

A little vigorous work can actually make a chisel warm.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

The bench grinder is a fantastic tool in both the wood and metal shops. It can be put to many tasks and represents great value - quality wheels are not expensive and are easy to keep in top condition with cheap dressers and single point diamonds. Time spent learning proper technique and developing a good touch on the tooling requires patience but is not terribly difficult. Slow speed is not necessary but may be useful to you. I have a 7" Milwaukee grinder and it has been a solid machine for over 20 years.

I have two LV grinder tool rests mounted on a grinding station in my shop, they are very nice to work with and I highly recomend them.

[Jim Neeley]

+1 on good tool rests. The grinder just needs to spin the wheels w/o wobble so a cheap one works just fine, just trash the tool rests.

I prefer the Oneway rests because they are sizeable pieces of ~1/4" metal which is not only rigid but also provides a great heat sink although the Veritas ones are good too.