Sad package - UPS

[Pedro Reyes]

So today I get two boxes from Lee Valley, as soon as I picked one up, a drawer slide pair came out. Now what really upsets me is that the UPS driver knew of this yet he just chose to leave it without knocking on our door. This is the 4th time I have problems with UPS and why anyone would use them is beyond me.

Well I had ordered some hardware to make my daughter a train table, some drawer slides for the garage, hacking knife, polycarbonate sheet (oddly enough packaged by itself in a 12x10x8 box)... Anyway mostly project supplies and the best part was a detail rabbet plane, 1/4". Well guess what was not in the box? YES, that and a UHMW 4x24" sheet. All the other stuff was there including a small bag with 1/4-20 knurled screws!

Does anyone know how these little planes are packaged, is the box small enough to fall through this tear?

It really upsets me that UPS just doesn't care, I know they don't take torn boxes, and while the packaging at Lee Valley could have been better considering what was in the order, I know these brutes at UPS are the ones that damaged the box.

I called them (UPS), I really want UPS and not Lee Valley to pay for this one.

269483

/p

[Max Withers]

Ha, I'm in Austin too, and I find the whole UPS doorbell-ringing thing unbearable! That said, call Lee Valley, they will help you. UPS is an exercise in frustration unless you have an account.

If you do have an account, in my experience, UPS is fantastic, ymmv.

[Pedro Reyes]

Ha, I'm in Austin too, and I find the whole UPS doorbell-ringing thing unbearable! That said, call Lee Valley, they will help you. UPS is an exercise in frustration unless you have an account.

If you do have an account, in my experience, UPS is fantastic, ymmv.

Thanks, I also prefer no knock/ring, but when a package is clearly damaged, or when they left a flat screen in the rain, I would appreciate a knock.

I know Lee Valley will replace my things, they are pure class, but I truly want UPS to take some ownership here.

Nice to find another Austinite here.

[Lloyd Robins]

I think that most of us know how upsetting it is to be waiting and then receive a damaged package. UPS has a claims program and an automatic amount per package unless extra insurance was purchased. Give them a call and tell them of your problems - file a complaint and fill in the claim form. You might also let Lee Valley know, as their complaints might carry even more weight.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks, I also prefer no knock/ring, but when a package is clearly damaged, or when they left a flat screen in the rain, I would appreciate a knock.


Are you saying that you prefer UPS to leave the package on your front stoep without you knowing about it? Won't it get stolen?

[Chris Griggs]

I know Lee Valley will replace my things, they are pure class, but I truly want UPS to take some ownership here.


I would imagine that LV automatically puts insurance on their packages (at least when they are over a certain amount). If this is the case, they would hopefully be able to recoup the loss from UPS.

Anyway, that sucks. Let us know how it pans out.

[Jim Matthews]

UPS will run you around in circles on claims.

It's not insurance, in their parlance it's "Declared Value coverage" and that is based on their appraisal.
With a new item, that's less of a faff, but if the item is second hand - they'll base the replacement value of a vintage item on current retail offerings.

That's when the fun starts.

******

I think there's something else (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFeLrgZgvho) afoot in this case.

[Keith Outten]

I recently shipped a custom vector table that I built for a customer. I made a custom plywood box with a 2 by 4 frame. I covered the table with foam sheet and used screws to secure the box. Somewhere along the shipping route UPS crushed the corner of the box and destroyed the table. It would have taken a lot of force to crush a box like mine, either it was run over by a fork lift or a very large heavy crate was dropped on my box.

My attempts to hold UPS responsible for their irresponsible handling of my package have been received by a cold shoulder and the blame has been transfered back to me being accused of building an inferior shipping container. I have the phone number of the UPS corporate office with instructions to call them about my problem but I don't expect to receive any compensation, at this point they have even refused to refund my shipping fee.
.

[Rob Lee]

Hi Pedro -

Please give us a call. The UPS claims process is involved, and they'll ask you to get us to fill it in anyway. It's our job to get it there... and we'll put it right...

Cheers -

Rob



So today I get two boxes from Lee Valley, as soon as I picked one up, a drawer slide pair came out. Now what really upsets me is that the UPS driver knew of this yet he just chose to leave it without knocking on our door. This is the 4th time I have problems with UPS and why anyone would use them is beyond me.

Well I had ordered some hardware to make my daughter a train table, some drawer slides for the garage, hacking knife, polycarbonate sheet (oddly enough packaged by itself in a 12x10x8 box)... Anyway mostly project supplies and the best part was a detail rabbet plane, 1/4". Well guess what was not in the box? YES, that and a UHMW 4x24" sheet. All the other stuff was there including a small bag with 1/4-20 knurled screws!

Does anyone know how these little planes are packaged, is the box small enough to fall through this tear?

It really upsets me that UPS just doesn't care, I know they don't take torn boxes, and while the packaging at Lee Valley could have been better considering what was in the order, I know these brutes at UPS are the ones that damaged the box.

I called them (UPS), I really want UPS and not Lee Valley to pay for this one.

269483

/p

[Hilton Ralphs]

Please give us a call. The UPS claims process is involved, and they'll ask you to get us to fill it in anyway. It's our job to get it there... and we'll put it right...


This is what makes Lee Valley a great company to deal with. Well done Rob.

[Adam Cruea]

Are you saying that you prefer UPS to leave the package on your front stoep without you knowing about it? Won't it get stolen?

Depends on where you live.

*knock on wood* Where I live, it's on a fairly busy road, so anyone just walking up to my house and taking a package off the front steps would be noticed. Not to mention, we have a very nosy old neighbor that watches our house like a hawk, even to the point of "your motion lights went on last night. I checked and couldn't see anything."

Old ladies. . .better than ADT and loads cheaper. :-D

That said, though, I prefer UPS leave packages on my side porch that is sheltered, but they don't always. I've known a few guys that have worked for UPS and their attitude is "we have a union and can't get fired, so why should we care? The company will pay for damages." But there are also employees there that treat packages with the utmost respect. I've watched drivers fling a 50 pound package like they didn't care and I've seen drivers stand and ring a doorbell multiple times holding a 70 pound package. For what it's worth, after working in shipping and receiving for a year and a half, all the major carriers are like that. When you get into freight carriers it gets even scarier; as in, some people are so oblivious they'll drive a forklift off a dock out an empty door, sometimes rigs will take off without making sure a trailer is hitched.

[Paul McGaha]

Guess we're lucky where I live. Our packages tend to arrive undamaged. From UPS, USPS and FedEx.

As for our local UPS driver, He's a super good guy. I've heard he's brought his truck to the local elementary school so the kids can get a tour of the truck. He leaves treats for our dog when he delivers to our house. He's a very hard guy to not like a lot.

PHM

[Chris Griggs]

I live in West Philly. God help me if anything gets left on my doorstep. Fortunately, USPS, UPS, and Fedex all seem pretty reliable where I live....I think it really varies with location. When I was in NOLA USPS left my brand new set of sigmas from Stu right on my doorstep...they never used to leave anything but for some reason they just left those! I couldn't believe it when got home to find them there. I sure was thankful that they didn't walk away (not that most people would know what they were) and leave me out $250!

Now I just get everything shipped to work! It's always fun to have a hand plane or something come in to break up the monotony of a typical work day.

[Jim Belair]

With all the horror stories out there about UPS it's surprising any shipper still uses them.

[Prashun Patel]

Don't get me started on UPS. My company ships about $100k with them annually. We opt for insurance on every package. We even have a 'dedicated' account manager.

We have at least 2-3 damaged shipments - and I mean, damaged to the point of our product cannot be used by our customer - PER MONTH. It is always we who have file the claim. We do get paid often, but it's such a run-around. I am convinced it's in their business model to do this because it discourages claims.



"With all the horror stories out there about UPS it's surprising any shipper still uses them."
There's a basic duopoly.
In my experience, Fed Ex isn't much better.

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Just a few general comments on packing.

Most people take it for granted that packages will arrive in good shape, and on a timely basis... and this is a pretty good assumption. Current delivery systems ensure the minimum amount of handling, and often the best routing (which is not always the shortest!) for a balance of speed and cost. If a package is handled by a person - it's generally as a sort operation - placing or diverting packages on conveyors. "Transport" (lifting, throwing, carrying etc.) operations are performed as much as possible by machinery - with people handling the decision functions. The opportunity to throw, drop, kick, or whatever else on the part of people involved in the process, is very much reduced. I think it would be fair to say that most package handling today does not involve the amount of "vertical" travel that older manual sort systems had.

From a shipper perspective - weight or cube are expensive. It is in our interest (hence yours - as you ultimately pay for it) to keep the weight and volume to a minimum. Dunnage - or void fill - is the material in the box that you didn't order... the filling. Many people are under the impression that lots of padding and wrapping is a good thing - it is not. The purpose of void fill is really to restrain movement of the package contents - not to provide "cushioning". Most damage to parcel contents is inflicted from inside the box - not outside. If void fill compresses - then the contents are free to beat on each other (and the carton walls) as the package travels. One of the best ways to "stop" void fill from compressing, is to eliminate it as much as possible! If you take a look at how electronics are packed - you'll see there's very little "cushioning" - formed styrofoam foam is used to constrain movement, and there's a layer or airspace (or foam) to protrect from intrusion. Box corners are like the "crumple zones" on cars - they absorb the hits.

Where most damage tends to occur, is in those packages that are exceptions - too long, to heavy, too dense etc. - as those are handled by more people. It will also occur at a higher frequency where product inside the box does not have it's own packaging - as OEM packaging also serves to protect and restrain product contents. Packaged product (like void fill) - can also compress or break free inside the box (blisters crush or separate, or boxes lose integrity) which creates a problem.

Of course - none of this is really an issue with proper handling. All of the carriers are much better at this than they were, and get better at it every day.

Still - stuff happens - and most of us in this business are set up to handle it. If there's ever an issue with a package, pick up the phone - or fire off an email to the person/firm you ordered from first; it's in our best interest to fix whatever went wrong with a minimum fo fuss for you. After all - we want you to come back....

Cheers -

Rob

[Tai Fu]

UPS = United Parcel Shredder

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks Rob for that informative feedback.

Amazon tends to package parcels based on what you've said in terms of void fill. Not a lot and as a result most of the stuff arrives in one piece.

[Bob Glenn]

I used to be the shipping manager for a company that made mirrors. Need I say more? UPS destroyed every box we shipped, then told us our packaging was inferior. I have shipped boxed mirrors all over the world with out any problems with other carriers. UPS would destroy an anvil in shipment.

[Keith Outten]

Bob,

So who do you recommend?
I was going to try FedEx to ship the replacement table I had to build but I have never been a fan of their service. I'm sure at this point that I will never sell another vector table because the kind of crate I will have to build to protect it will cost me more to ship than the product cost to build.
.

[steven c newman]

seems that the post office is copying the ups guys269501inside this mess was a DE6c269502269503269504Salvaged what I could, used the refund to buy a new base for it, and made new handles. Mailcarrier just dropped the box on a lawn chair and left it. Came that way from a sorting center?

[Gary Muto]

Oddly I got a shipment from LV this week too and it was damaged. First time in all of my shipments from LV. The funny thing is that I'm temporarily in an apartment and the other UPS packages I recievced were left at the office with a notice sticker on my door. This one was left at my apartment door. There are a couple of items missing and I'm sure Lee Valley will make it painless.

Anyway, I have been pretty happy with UPS too. What got me was that someone tried to retape the box but they weren't very effective.

[Jim Koepke]

When I lived in California my order from LV was "misdirected." The tracking information indicated the package had been delivered. LV was very good about this but wanted me to check with FedEx to see if they delivered to a neighbor or put it behind a gate or whatever. FedEx sent the delivery guy out and I could tell he was at a total loss as to where he left the package.

My understanding is that the FedEx driver pays for such mistakes. On future shipments I requested UPS.

FedEx bought some delivery companies that were not real great. This expanded their service model. The company they used for ground shipments was never able to find my old residence. My current understanding is each FedEx ground carrier is actually an independent contractor to FedEx. Some entrepreneurs will buy multiple routes and hire drivers.

Now that the local route operator for FedEx lives two doors down and knows me, FedEx would be fine, but my understanding last time I ordered from LV was they no longer use FedEx.

I think our UPS driver is afraid to come in our gate. We have two geese who probably honk at them when they pull up when we are not home. Fortunately we are well off the road so a package left in our yard isn't much of a problem as long as we see it.

jtk

[Mel Miller]

I only use UPS when there is no other option because of their past record. Some time back, they destroyed some antique car radiator ornaments I shipped. Had to keep going higher in their corporate ladder to finally get a refund.

I've found that whenever you're not having any luck getting a problem resolved the best thing is to ask "who is your superior" then call them. Repeat as necessary. This approach has worked for me several times.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The pressure on all delivery companies to deliver more, with fewer people, in a shorter time for less money is the same pressure all other companies are feeling in this current business era.

It really is a matter of luck and the individuals involved. It only takes one angry or careless or apathetic jerk to start throwing stuff to damage a lot of shipments. While the threads here nearly always berate a bad delivery with accompanying photos, you don't see posts and photos of the millions of packages that delivered successfully and injury free around the world.

A lot of it deals with the local office and workers. Same thing is true about the USPS. While FedEx and UPS do fine locally, the USPS can find more ways to screw up mail delivery than there are stars in the skies. In June my wife and I were in the Norfolk area for 12 days. We filled out a "Hold Mail Card" and turned it into the post office. Then, due to past repeated history, we made a little sign, placed inside our mail box so it was upright and mail couldn't be placed beyond the sign. The sign read "Please hold mail". Now I am hesitant to put that sign in there as our mail box is on the street. If some reason that door on the box were to be left open, the sign is available for all to read and know we aren't home. But, we do it because NUMEROUS times in the past, turning in the card, did not get our mail held. Luckily some neighbors and close friends would check periodically, remove the mail and hold it for us. The trouble is they are retired too and travel. Thus we aren't always home to look out for each others mail.

The kicker? After 12 days in Norfolk, it took 3 trips downtown to the post office to get our mail delivery reinstated. Each time a USPS postal worker assured us our mail would start being delivered the next day. On the 2nd day after the 3rd trip, I was prepared to visit the local postmaster if the mail didn't deliver that day as delivery should have started the previous day as promised.

The long short of it is......businesses .....FedEx, UPS and USPS are working under tighter constraints than in the past. The result is more damaged goods. Of course, social media like the internet allows people to make their complaints more visible than in the past.

[Eric DeSilva]

It really is a matter of luck and the individuals involved.

Amen. I've gotten a *lot* of packages delivered UPS and FedEx and I've had virtually no problems with any of them. Maybe I'm lucky or we just have good practices enforced where we are. All the shipping damage I've seen has been poor packing.

[Pedro Reyes]

Thanks for all the responses, it is just frustration, in the end I know a company like Lee Valley will do things right, that's why I hesitated to post this, because I really want to see UPS do something.

@Rob Lee. Thanks, for taking the time to repsond, I did call and leave a message, but I will wait the 5 days UPS told me to wait, I am in no rush and I'd like to see what they come up with. I understand your point of view, even UPS' in this environment. FWIW, the packaging was adequate, of course there could always be ways to make it better but I think it was very adequate, provided it is handled with some care.

If by Monday UPS has not determined anything, I'll call, I hate to see companies take these losses because of shippers. And to split the pain I can be charged for shipping as I'll be ordering the shooting plane ;-).

On shipping in general, I know machines let packages drop usually from counter height, at least that is what I was told at FedEx when I wanted a box the size of a pizza insured for $10,000. I work in semi-conductors, this was a platter (susceptor) about 15" in diameter, machined out of solid silicon carbide, with semiconductor type tolerances... anyway, the guy said he would only insure it if I could push the Box off the counter and know the contents were good.

I always wondered, if I could get my hands on one of these platters (cost ~$8300) from the lab, a used one, I wonder if they could make a good sharpening surface, I know they were flat beyond anything available commercially (or at least that good).

Other UPS stories include TV (in a TV box) left in the rain, an empty box with a hole, that one had files from Highland WWing I think, the funny thing here was explaining that they were not paper files, but metal files... that took forever, their argument was "the box was not supposed to weight anything if all you had was 4 files (4 sheets of paper in their mind)... anyway, beats driving to Canada from Austin.

peace and thanks

/p

[Jim Matthews]

I'm sorry to hear this is a familiar problem for you.

If you're persistent, and keep a positive manner with the eventual claim agent, you might prevail.
If you can get documentation of what the item will cost to replace, and have pictures of your packaging steps,
you'll have better odds in your favor.

I'm finding that while UPS wants to handle larger packages, as they get paid by volumetric weight,
they're not really prepared to handle things carefully. It's my belief that they're trying to drive
customers to use their franchise packaging locations, which are hideously over-priced.

I found that telling the claims agent that I was also preparing a small claims filing, in the event they didn't compensate me spurred action in my favor.

[Matt Ranum]

A few years ago I took a temporary job hauling for an overnight delivery service that runs the upper mid west region(non union shop). I hauled from the my local to the main dist center and back every night. My first night on the job was an eye opener as to how packages get handled. If a package made it onto the wrong line and it was small enough or light enough it was thrown to where it needed to be. I'm not talking a few feet, I'm talking 50 to 100 feet! When I brought it to my trainers attention he looked at me and with pride and said, "But we have the lowest damage claims in the industry."

I had to ask, "And just how much is that?"

My jaw hit the ground when he told me 21%!!!!!!

I learned a great deal about packing my own packages after that, when I think I have it good enough.....pack it some more.

BTW- I have never used their service since. I don't think it makes any difference which company handles them either, depends on supervisors and the quality of the line people they hire for the job.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Pedro,

LV shouldn't have to take a loss.

A few years ago, I was given a lathe and tools by the turners here at SMC. Later when I upgraded to a bigger lathe, I tried to pay forward that debt I felt. I bought a double-walled cardboard box, built a wooden frame, bolted the Jet VS Mini 1014 to the wood and shipped it along with other accessories via FedEx. to a fellow Creeker in the US Navy stationed at Colorado Springs, CO.
Professionally for several decades, I went to the FedEx office several times a week minimum. I know some of the drivers and all of the counter personnel personally. The two ladies who work the counter, I know how many kids they have, where the kids live etc. I shipped and received hundreds of parts annually with FedEx.

FedEx destroyed the box and the lathe in it. The FedEx employee in Colorado Springs encouraged the Creeker to whom I was paying it forward to refuse to accept delivery and he did. FedEx shipped it back to me in anther box. In a few weeks time, I was able to get copies of the receipts from the Woodcraft Store where the idiot turners bought it and had it delivered to my home. I had receipts for some of the accessories. In the meantime, I called the Colorado Springs WC store and bought a new lathe using a credit card. I paid it forward. It only took a couple weeks for FedEx to reimburse me fully for full cost of the original lathe and accessories. I didn't find it demanding that FedEx wanted copies of receipts and photographs of the damaged lathe. It makes sense they want assurance to prevent fraud.

I suspect that LV won't suffer any loss to UPS.

[Jack Curtis]

Guess we're lucky where I live. Our packages tend to arrive undamaged. From UPS, USPS and FedEx.

Same here, and I live in Austin at least six months of every year.

[Tony Wilkins]

Remembered this thread but hadn't had any problems with UPS. Well, guess what. My last Lee Valley order was supposed to be here yesterday. We were home. Checked tracking, it said delivered, went right out and checked - nada, nothing, zilch. Not on any neighbors porch (he's been here enough times he should know us by now anyway). Called UPS, call the vendor. Lee Valley reshipped right away but I feel sorry for them. It wasn't there fault that the package never got here.

[Matt Meiser]

If one ships a heavy, item like a set of drawer slides or a 6C in box with only a little filler paper to keep it from moving around, its going to try to dig its way out of that box. That's not the shipping company's fault. I've shipped a lot of stuff. I pack stuff tight and tape heavily. I've never had a complaint. I once shipped a tubing bender in a large flat rate box. I built a crate from plywood that JUST fit inside a flat rate box. Forget the weight, but I was maybe 10lb under the max allowed for a large flat rate box. Mailman probably hated it but it showed up safe and sound. Had I thrown it in the box with some paper, it would have suffered the same fate as the items above. I've received a lot of stuff packed as shown below and stuff has gone missing as a result. That's not to say the shipping companies don't damage stuff they shouldn't but from what I see in the pictures above, I'm not surprised.

[Gary Muto]

Just to update. I got my replacements that were lost in the original order. LV made it painless for me. I even offered to let them ship it with a back ordered item but since the back order is now pushed to November, LV insisted on shipping right away.

Great Customer service as usual! Oh, UPS did well this time too!

[John Huds0n]

Most of my experience with UPS has been very good. Yes, I do get the occasional damaged package, but it usually few and far between.

UPS recently implemented a free service called "UPS MY CHOICE". I get email alerts the day before telling me that a package will be delivered and also a notification when the package was delivered. I could even request the package be held at the UPS facility pick up or for $5 I could have the package delivered to the nearest UPS store where they would hold it for me. They also have a premium service ($40 a year) that offers some other features

Check it out

http://www.ups.com/mychoice/features/

[John Powers]

the studio where I take classical guitar lessons in center city Philly had a $12,000 French guitar go to midland Texas instead of Philly. seems the europeans make their ones like our sevens. can you imagine the condition of the guitar when it finally got to Philly?

[Tony Wilkins]

I hadn't had much trouble with UPS either. Outcome of my problem as of today - UPS accused my wife of lying about not getting it and now we have to sign for all packages from UPS. Won't be doing business with UPS if I have a choice for a while.