Need quick epoxy help!

[Derek Arita]

I just got some West Systems epoxy and am using it for the first time on a rocker bend. I used some filler to the consistency of runny ketchup. First, I tried to spread it on the pieces with a roller and that didn't work...seems the roller sucked up all the liquid and left the filler on the wood, so I scraped that off and started using a scrap piece of wood to spread out the epoxy and well as I could. After that, all went well.
Now, how long before I can remove clamps? My left overs are cured hard and hot. Did I make a mistake using the filler or will it fill gaps between the lams? Can I really just leave the plungers in the cans? Thanks for the help!
One more thing...why are the left overs in the cup, hard and hot and the squeeze out on the rocker is still tacky?

[mreza Salav]

Not an expert here (but I'm in the middle of a project using this): I always first "wet" the wood with not-thickened epoxy, basically take a brush and apply the very liquid form all over it until it soaks into the wood. Then thicken it with a filler to have a consistency that it doesn't run all over; I use a scrap piece of wood to apply it (like icing on a cake) and put the pieces into clamp (and you don't want a lot of clamp pressure). I usually leave it 24hrs, although they say cure time could be between 9-12 hrs (depending on what hardener you are using).

[Richard Coers]

Plungers can stay in the cans, I would not have used filler in your application. Filler is used when you need to really fill a gap, or in boat usage, to form a fillet between two surfaces. No idea what the weather is like where you are, and what catalyst you used. No idea of clamp time without that info. Best to go to their website for curing times.

[Wade Lippman]

I have left pumps in for 6 years, using them about once a year, and it has been fine. The epoxy gets dark brown when it ages, but it still works normally.
Your leftovers will cure much faster than the work, so give it a few hours after the left overs are hard.
You probably have to use some filler when using it as glue; otherwise it is so thin that it can run off before you get the pieces together.
Runny ketchup is about right. Hunts, not Heinz.

[Derek Arita]

By the way, I'm using the "Slow" hardener.

[Jamie Buxton]

The curing reaction in epoxy generates heat. Epoxy cures faster at higher temperatures. So in a big volume, curing raises the temperature, which speeds the curing, which raises the temperature, and so on. When the epoxy is spread out, like in a joint, the heat is absorbed by the wood, and there's no run-away. So the leftover glue in the cup cures faster than the glue in the joint.

There's lots of good info for you on West's web site -- for instance http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/.

[Sam Murdoch]

Yup, what they all said. This time of year your glue up will be hard in the morning and ready to be free from the clamps. I would not have used the filler either. For laminates just mix the resin and hardener and spread it out. I use a wooden paddle for big jobs and/or a throw away brush for small jobs. I clean up my squeeze out and tools with lacquer thinner or acetone if I have access to the work. Don't go crazy soaking your work with solvents, but you can clean up lots of the squeeze out and make the later clean up mach easier..

I typically use shrink wrap or wrapping tape on my form to keep the work from bonding to the form. You can paste wax the form and the top form or top cauls too. I also put my mixing container with any left over mixed epoxy outside away from my building as it goes off. You may not have seem my note in one of the other threads about mixing your epoxy in a shallow and wide dish like a roller tray rather than in a cat food can. This gives you a bit more working time as you are not concentrating the heat from the curing.

Yes, leave the pumps in the cans. Also place the cans in another tray. I find that the pumps will drip a bit and just setting on a shelf you end up with a really nasty shelf.

[Derek Arita]

Yup, what they all said. This time of year your glue up will be hard in the morning and ready to be free from the clamps. I would not have used the filler either. For laminates just mix the resin and hardener and spread it out. I use a wooden paddle for big jobs and/or a throw away brush for small jobs. I clean up my squeeze out and tools with lacquer thinner or acetone if I have access to the work. Don't go crazy soaking your work with solvents, but you can clean up lots of the squeeze out and make the later clean up mach easier..

I typically use shrink wrap or wrapping tape on my form to keep the work from bonding to the form. You can paste wax the form and the top form or top cauls too. I also put my mixing container with any left over mixed epoxy outside away from my building as it goes off. You may not have seem my note in one of the other threads about mixing your epoxy in a shallow and wide dish like a roller tray rather than in a cat food can. This gives you a bit more working time as you are not concentrating the heat from the curing.

Yes, leave the pumps in the cans. Also place the cans in another tray. I find that the pumps will drip a bit and just setting on a shelf you end up with a really nasty shelf.
Thanks! Lots of great info here. Being my first time, I was afraid that I shouldn't have used the filler. Will it weaken the bond by using it or will it be OK?

[Sam Murdoch]

You know - I have never used the filler on a laminate job :confused:. Can't imagine that it will compromise the bond in any way. West would have to sell it with a caveat. At least you made runny ketchup and not mayonnaise and you know that it will cure. Enjoy your evening :).

[Larry Edgerton]

High humidity will drastically speed up cure time as well. So on a hot humid day with a lit of volume, you better have a plan.

Filler/micro balloons are not necessary if there are no gaps to be filled, but they don't hurt anything either if used as directed.

Get on line and order West Systems manual. It will answer just about any question that you can come up with, and any it can't the tech line can.

I pour my leftover in the expansion joints in my shop floor. Makes it easier to clean up. Had my old shop floor almost filled so had to start over with a new shop.......... sometimes I glue quarters to the floor just to screw with people.

I clean up while wet with a little alcohol.

Larry

[Derek Arita]

Assuming the glue up goes well, can I machine as usual to get two rockers from the one glue up? Is the epoxy hard on blades?

[Mike Cutler]

Derek

Epoxy cures to 80% of it's strength in the first 24 hours and will continue to cure for a a couple of days. leave the glue-up in the clamps for 24 hours.
Like Jamie stated epoxy works by exothermic reaction. The cup has more epoxy per unit/volume/area, than the glue up and will heat up faster. An epoxy coated deck takes about a week to cure hard. For future reference, you can put the cup in a tray of ice and extend it's working pot life.
Yes, you can machine as usual. Is it hard on blades? For the limited work you have to do, you probably won't notice.
The micro balloons, filler, are the thixotropic agent. Unless you made cake batter, you should be fine. Think of the filler as "rebar", or diamond cloth, for epoxy. depending on the West product you used, filler may have been required. West does have a two part system with the filler already added in, so does System Three.

The roller for epoxy is special looking little doo dad. If you didn't get it at the Marine Supply house, chances are you won't find it in a wood working store. It's a hard plastic little, sometimes big, roller, that looks like someone ran it over with a car, or it got stuck in the mold.

There are mega buck yachts, and racers, that have been repaired and layed up with with the West line of products. Their products are in use all over the world, in some pretty harsh environments. You should be fine.

[Derek Arita]

Well, it's been about 5 hours now and it's looking good. The squeezout is really hard and although it's very tempting, I'll leave it in clamps till tomorrow. I am really anxious to see how it all comes out...my fingers are crossed.
I like the clear, hard nature of what I see so far. As long as it keeps that rocker bent, I'll be thrilled. Thanks all, for the help.

[Derek Arita]

Just wanted to show you what the glue up looks like. Thanks for the help and I'll post the final product...wish me luck...
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2041/yuok.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/yuok.jpg/)

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7637/0wha.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/0wha.jpg/)

[mreza Salav]

For bent lamination I usually use one piece mold for one part but segmented for the mating part and use clamps for each segment like the following:

269505

I find it reduces any chance of possible gap.

[Kevin Jenness]

One thing to be aware of is that epoxy adheres best to a sanded (80#) or sawn surface. I have had and seen numerous successful laminations of low density woods with machined surfaces, and have had several failures of high density wood laminations with machined or finely sanded surfaces. Try a small scale experiment and see how easy it is to split apart a maple glue up with jointed surfaces and WEST system versus coarsely sanded or sawn surfaces. Also, avoid a starved glueline caused by excessive pressure. Epoxy is a good gap-filling adhesive unlike pva glues, and it likes to have some thickness to the glueline.

[Derek Arita]

Got it...good tips to learn.