Another Basic Cabinet Question

[Mark W Pugh]

Basic carcass building questions.


OK, just in the planning stages of building some base cabinets for my work shop. I have read NUMEROUS books on cabinet building. There are SO many different ways to build the carcass’, so I would appreciate any/all your inputs. This is my first whack at doing this, hence the basic questions.


So, I plan on using 3/4” pre-finished ply for the boxes. Questions


1. Butt joints (no glue) vs rabbet joints (with glue). I just want to know what works for you guys?


2. I planned on a dado for the 1/4” back material. The dado would be set in to the box to allow the 3/4” nailer to be flush with the back edge of the sides. What do you guys do with the backs?


3. Or, do you guys use 3/4” ply for the backs, which would seem like a waste?


Thanks.

[Sam Murdoch]

I like prefin ply quite a bit and use it often.

General comments - These are shop cabs so depending on your preference you have more latitude than with more formal cabs. Of course the questions needs to be asked - how wide will the interior shelves be and how much weight do you intend to load into them. Anything wider than 30" or deeper than 12" needs some extra consideration. Maybe add a face frame or a screwed on back depending on your intentions.

Here is one source of relative information ihttp://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip01.html

Another source reference is the "sagulator" - http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm.

To your questions -

1) If you don't mind seeing the screws on the outside you can just screw into your horizontals with 1-1/2" screws and build a very rugged cabinet even without glue. For a more finished look - use a washer head "lube" finish type screw available from McFeely's and other sources. Again, a secure back and/or face frame or how these cabs are fastened to the wall could add lots of structural integrity even to cabs built this way. It is difficult to keep boxes square just using screws into the end grain of the horizontals without the help of the back or a face frame.

For a more joinery and glue technique here is one reference thread here on the Creek that moi started that can answer some of your questions - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198249-Bookcase-Joinery-Simple-Method-Secure-Joints

2) I never use 1/4" ply for backs anymore. I nearly always use 1/2" ply screwed directly into my 3/4" sides/top/bottom. Advantages are: this adds the squaring up factor and immensely helps the structural integrity of the box, you can eliminate the nailer, you can add fastenings to secure to your wall pretty much anywhere you need without concern that the box will pull off the wall.

In regards to seeing the edge of the ply at the sides if you do a full overlay you of course have the option of rabbeting the sides to receive the 1/2" ply. I would rabbet the full 1/2" depth x 5/8" wide in order to get the most bearing and screw surface. Glue is optional, but pre-drilling is not. I use 1-1/4" screws but pre drill just to make certain that I don't split the ply or worse yet drive the screws in crooked and blow in or out - looks so unprofessional :(. Cut the depth of the tops and bottoms of the cabinet so that the 1/2" ply back can fully overlay these. Why bother with the rabbet unless the edges absolutely must be hidden?

OK - so that's my take on the subject. Just a start to the discussion I'm sure.

[Alden Miller]

I concur with Sam, 1/2" ply for the back.

My method would be dadoes for the top, bottom, and back using glue and clamps for the assembly. With the 1/2" back you don't need to worry about a nailer.

-Alden

[Larry Frank]

I used 3/4" Arauco plywood for my shop cabinets. The place I bought it from had flat sheets and the quality is very good.

- The joints are all butt joints and held together with pocket screws.
- The back is also 3/4" plywood. Since, the cabinets in my shop would be heavily loaded, I used the 3/4" plywood on everything including the drawers.
- I would have liked to use the prefinished plywood but the cost was very high and I needed about 35 sheets to complete the project.
- The cabinets that I built were euro style with no face frame. I edged the plywood with 1/2" thick pieces of pine.
- I prefinished all of the parts with oil based poly. I rolled the finish on for the first two coats and then brushed the last one on. I thought that I would never see the end of the parts.
- I drilled the shelf holes with a jig that uses a plunge router which made that go much faster. The holes are 5 mm, 32 mm apart and the front ones set back from the front edge 37 mm. While all this seems like a pain, it makes the installation of drawer slides and euro hinges very easy. Given that I had some many parts to drill holes in, it made the time for making the jig very worthwhile.

One other thing to think about. I had not made this many cabinets before and wanted to make certain it would work out well for my application. I made one upper and one lower cabinet to make certain that everything would go together smoothly and the hinges and drawer slides mounted easily.

Good Luck

[Mark W Pugh]

I like prefin ply quite a bit and use it often.


2).......... I nearly always use 1/2" ply screwed directly into my 3/4" sides/top/bottom. Advantages are: this adds the squaring up factor and immensely helps the structural integrity of the box, you can eliminate the nailer, you can add fastenings to secure to your wall pretty much anywhere you need without concern that the box will pull off the wall.

In regards to seeing the edge of the ply at the sides if you do a full overlay you of course have the option of rabbeting the sides to receive the 1/2" ply. I would rabbet the full 1/2" depth x 5/8" wide in order to get the most bearing and screw surface. Glue is optional, but pre-drilling is not. I use 1-1/4" screws but pre drill just to make certain that I don't split the ply or worse yet drive the screws in crooked and blow in or out - looks so unprofessional :(. Cut the depth of the tops and bottoms of the cabinet so that the 1/2" ply back can fully overlay these. Why bother with the rabbet unless the edges absolutely must be hidden?

OK - so that's my take on the subject. Just a start to the discussion I'm sure.

So, you say skew "into" which means it covers the entire back edge, or you rabbet it in?

I should have said that this is a mock run for a kitchen later. I understand on how to cover edges, I think, just basic box building.

Thanks

[Stephen Cherry]

For a shop cabinet, if you may want to use the top as a work bench, you might want to dado everything and spend the couple of extra bucks for 3/4 backs.

I've read about tons of ways to screw a cabinet together, and have tried a few, and if you half care about what you are doing you will be way ahead of most of the commercial cabinets which are more and more built like cardboard held together with toothpicks.

[Sam Murdoch]

So, you say skew "into" which means it covers the entire back edge, or you rabbet it in?

I should have said that this is a mock run for a kitchen later. I understand on how to cover edges, I think, just basic box building.

Thanks

I normally use a full overlay back, If I don't want the edges to show - for a kitchen or library cabinetry for example - I add a finished end. Lots of folks will say that I overbuild but in a custom shop being able to screw and glue with certain results is actually easier than trying to do everything with the thinnest lightest (and I think ) most fragile materials. One way among many...

[Mark W Pugh]

So, what do you guys find more useful in shop cabinets, drawers or shelves?

[Ben Martin]

So, what do you guys find more useful in shop cabinets, drawers or shelves?

This picture will answer the question for me...

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp325/martbj/General%20Workshop%20Pictures/2010-08-14_14-04-39_558.jpg (http://s424.photobucket.com/user/martbj/media/General%20Workshop%20Pictures/2010-08-14_14-04-39_558.jpg.html)

(old shop, repainted but reused in the new shop)

Ben

[Matt Meiser]

Both kitchens I did, I did dados and rabbets, glue, and screws. Even the good plywood I used had some inconsistency in thickness sheet to sheet. A friend who has done several kitchens told me he has switched to butt joints with screws so I'm doing it on the current bath/laundry cabinet project I'm doing for my parents. I used 1 domino in a loose setting at each corner and didn't bother gluing--just for alignment assistance. Went really fast and the boxes feel just as strong as what I've built in the past. A perfect cut is mandatory with this method, which I get off a good quality track saw.

I've been doing 3/4 backs. For uppers it makes for a really strong box and I can put screws wherever I need to hang them. The lowers its overkill but I bet on a kitchen it costs less than $50 extra since the savings on 1/4" isn't that great and I bet it saves a sheet on average.

[Jim Neeley]

So, what do you guys find more useful in shop cabinets, drawers or shelves?

I find drawes generally the most useful although a few cabinets with slide-out shelves (HD drawer slides) may be more practical if you store larger, heavier things such as a lunchbox planer, desktop sander, grinder).

I'm in the process of ridding myself of shelves as they are sawdust magnets, making for a nasty-looking place and very dusty items stored there.

Just my $0.02... YMMV.

Jim

[Mark W Pugh]

Just thinking out loud here. Is there any good reason, other than looks, if you could see it, why one would finish the inside of drawer only base cabinets? Just looking at cost of pre-finished ply vs not p-f, and wondering if it really matters on the drawer base cabinets.

[Mark W Pugh]

Another question. What depth of drawers seem to be beneficial and which ones seem to be too deep or too shallow? I know it depends, but since you guys have made some, just trying to find out what is working the best for you.

[glenn bradley]

So, what do you guys find more useful in shop cabinets, drawers or shelves?

Drawers. They look neat no matter what's in them and they keep what's in them cleaner than shelves.

[Scott Ramos]

I did a mix of cabinets and drawers. I have a mix of cabinets and drawers. For the drawers, first I did 3 deep drawers, but ended up making 4 shallow and 1 deep drawers. I made individual units rather than a large built-in. The carcass was made of 3/4 MDF, the face frames are poplar and the door stiles and rails and drawer fronts are 3/4 birch ply. The door panels and drawer bottoms are 1/4 birch ply and the drawer sides are drawer stock. The counter tops are MDF with a Formica top.


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Scott

[Judson Green]

I always used ½ or ¾" for backs. Just butted the joints, sometimes would biscuit the top of the cabinet and sometimes add cleats to the bottom (cabinet floor). And always added finished ends even if the the finished end I added was just flat. I too feel its easier to over build and be able to screw with certainty. And using at ½" backs makes for a nicer looking inside of cabinet.

Just doors or drawers? I don't know. I feel that when I go looking for something I havta open and dig through every drawer. But on the other hand with cabinet doors you gotta get down there and dig though everything. Maybe the best solution is less stuff:eek: . I guess that's one you gotta figure out what's best for you.

On finished ends. I mitered the joining styles (The one for the face frame and the one for the finished end). Built the face frame and finished end. Built the carcass. Joined the FF to the carcass and lastly the FE to the FF and carcass.

If you do this for a cabinet that will be a somewhat clear finish I'd suggest getting the styles out of one wider board so the grain will wrap. Unfortunately I haven't a picture of this in a clearer finished wood but the effect is really nice.

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