The Veritas Shooting Plane

[Derek Cohen]

OK folks, as promised, once Rob and Co released their brand spanking new shooting plane, I would publish a review of the plane for your entertainment and education :)


The website link is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane_html_22a7cc3a.jpg


Feel free to ask any questions.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Great analysis Derek. A very well thought out and well written evaluation! Very cool to see such a detailed comparison of it and the LN 51.

I do, however, have one point of criticism. I find the comparison to a Bald Eagle inaccurate and also a blatant and feeble attempt to sell a "foreign" product to U.S patriots ;).

Despite this insultingly obvious ploy I would like to extend to you an olive branch and offer you a comparison that universally appeals to true U.S. patriots...

THE BAT MOBILE

269420 269421
(the one from the 90s)




No need to thank me...I just want what's best for all of us:p



(Obviously, I'm just being silly per my usual m.o. Really a very good article and analysis)

[Derek Cohen]

I think that we shall have to vote on that, Chris ... Batmobile vs Bald Eagle. :)

However my understanding is that it is a bird of both the USA and Canada! The BE is not a foreign product. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Beauchesne]

Derek: A wonderful ( as usual ) comparison - As a lefty, I am impressed with the fact that Rob and gang came up with the southpaw option - - Deneb spent a lot of time with me and a LN # 51 last fall - a wonderful piece, but the right handed version makes it just ' not feel right ' to this lefty. That being said, I don't know if I can justify one at this time.

[Chris Griggs]

I think that we shall have to vote on that, Chris ... Batmobile vs Bald Eagle. :)

However my understanding is that it is a bird of both the USA and Canada! The BE is not a foreign product. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Touche'!

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Thanks for humoring my stupid sense of humor:)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Wow Derek, what a great review. I bet there are a bunch of seriously miffed formites after reading the results you posted.

Anyway, I wonder if the Veritas PM-V11 blades made for the Stanley 4-1/2 would work in the Lie-Nielsen #51? Rob would have plenty of sales if this was the case.

Question for you though, would you recommend a blade with a bevel angle >25 degrees for side grain work? Lee Valley have the 38 degree PM blade available for the Jointer/Bevel-Up Smoother lines.

Thanks again.

[Adam Cruea]

Wow Derek, what a great review. I bet there are a bunch of seriously miffed formites after reading the results you posted.

Anyway, I wonder if the Veritas PM-V11 blades made for the Stanley 4-1/2 would work in the Lie-Nielsen #51? Rob would have plenty of sales if this was the case.

Question for you though, would you recommend a blade with a bevel angle >25 degrees for side grain work? Lee Valley have the 38 degree PM blade available for the Jointer/Bevel-Up Smoother lines.

Thanks again.

Funny you should mention that. I've thought about getting a PM-V11 blade for my LN 51 since I've been so impressed with the PM-V11 blade I have in my 604 smoother. I see no reason why it wouldn't work as long as it's the proper width.

Anywho, awesome review, Derek. I've noticed the same about the LN A2 blade on the plane, too. Every-so-slightly annoying that you only get wear on an itty-bitty portion of the blade, but hey. . .maybe I can talk the wife into allowing me to get a Tormek so that sharpening isn't such a pain (I dread having to re-grind primary bevels).

Silly question, though. . .did you notice that the space in the toe for the adjustable mouth plate caught on anything until the full width of the board could register against the plane?

[David Weaver]

Funny you should mention that. I've thought about getting a PM-V11 blade for my LN 51 since I've been so impressed with the PM-V11 blade I have in my 604 smoother. I see no reason why it wouldn't work as long as it's the proper width.

Anywho, awesome review, Derek. I've noticed the same about the LN A2 blade on the plane, too. Every-so-slightly annoying that you only get wear on an itty-bitty portion of the blade, but hey. . .maybe I can talk the wife into allowing me to get a Tormek so that sharpening isn't such a pain (I dread having to re-grind primary bevels).

Silly question, though. . .did you notice that the space in the toe for the adjustable mouth plate caught on anything until the full width of the board could register against the plane?

Adam, what are you using to regrind right now? Stones or sandpaper?

[Chris Griggs]

Every-so-slightly annoying that you only get wear on an itty-bitty portion of the blade,

Adam, it might be worth considering a ramped shooting board. I made one a while back, and while I don't think it really does much to improve the cut (some disagree here), it is nice that it helps to wear a slightly larger area of the blade. I think that's really the biggest thing to be gained from a ramped board, especially if you have a shooting plane that works with as much ease as the 51.

[Adam Cruea]

Adam, what are you using to regrind right now? Stones or sandpaper?

A 220 Sigma II for now. I prefer doing a hollow-grind on my bench grinder, but I can never get the grind uniform (in other words, perfect).

@Chris> I may do that. . .jack up the back of my current shooting board and see if it helps. Or, I could just learn to cut close to 90*. :-P

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't worry about it being perfect, it will get better as you go. Just leave the grinder set on the angle you use for a primary grind, at least on one wheel and over time you'll get quick with it. It took me at least three times as long to use a tormek as it does a dry grinder - it's money better spent elsewhere. If you have issues with burnt edges or something (probably not or you would've mentioned it), you can get a softer wheel if you don't already have one. I grind right to the edge, or extremely close to it. Did with a hard wheel and now that I have a soft surface grinder wheel, no issue. I spent more time getting water to the tormek, changing water, grading the wheel, playing with the microadjust, etc than I do for the entire grind now with a dry bench grinder. It was a novelty at first, but the novelty wears off. There's a reason you see a lot of 5+ year-old tormek machines with barely-used wheels, but not many complaining about their dry grinders. Derek will probably disagree but he is the only person I've ever seen who can grind with a dry grinder who disagrees.

I think a lot of the rest of the folks buy them because they see demos that make them look better than they are, or the lure of "it cost $700, so it must be good". And then they get a dry grinder or go back to their dry grinder, anyway.

Grinding with bench stones is OK, but it should be reserved for irons that were designed to be hand ground (laminated or thin irons). It's self torture to do thicker alloyed irons.

[Derek Cohen]

Funny you should mention that. I've thought about getting a PM-V11 blade for my LN 51 since I've been so impressed with the PM-V11 blade I have in my 604 smoother. I see no reason why it wouldn't work as long as it's the proper width.

Hi Adam

I am looking at trialling a PM-V11 blade in my #51. I suspect that the LV Stanley type is about the same thickness as the Smoothcut white steel blade.


Adam, it might be worth considering a ramped shooting board. I made one a while back, and while I don't think it really does anything to improve the cut (some disagree here), it is nice that it helps to wear a slightly larger area of the blade. I think that's really the biggest thing to be gained from a ramped board, especially if you have a shooting plane that works with as much ease as the 51.

Hi Chris

The ramp does make a significant difference. I have demonstrated this many times. I do not see its primary benefit as spreading wear. The angle is simply too low. For spreading wear, I would stay with a flat board and what you could do is have a high fence, and then add a removable (series of) layers to the shooting board's platform (i.e. building it higher). Then the workpiece will be in line with an unused section of the plane blade.


Derek will probably disagree but he is the only person I've ever seen who can grind with a dry grinder who disagrees.

:) :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

:) :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

I fully expect that 10 other people will come along now and say that a dry grinder is slower than a tormek ---that's the nature of forums :)

Sort of like when we wrote the double iron article on wood central. When I mentioned it to warren several months prior and said I could not get the plane to tear out and that I had been wrong about the heavy iron tight mouth steep angle deal being superior, there were crickets except for the people saying that nobody actually uses the double iron to control tearout. And then after we published the article, gobs of back seat rearward facing drivers said "oh, everyone knew that". "look in this book". "look in that book". "I learned that at a pallet factory, you guys are writing articles about stuff everyone knows".

In your case, Derek, I know you do not post contrarian stuff just to create arguments. I still owe a video of the dry grind and hone in real time, but it will have to wait a week or two. We have more options here, practically, too, because our wood is softer. For the last three weeks, I have been using only a washita stone and stock planes with stock stanley irons (slowly trudging through kitchen cabinets, as I don't have a power jointer and get plenty of chance to process the door and face frame material with hand planes). I am enamored with the stock irons and washita (without any other finisher, just a bare leather strop) right now because I am working cherry. If I was sizing tropical blanks (like I had to do to make infill planes), i'd be less enamored with them. But so far, great. What should I do with the 50 or 75 or so sharpening stones I have ? :)

[Harold Burrell]

What should I do with the 50 or 75 or so sharpening stones I have ? :)

Really??? You have to ask???

Must be you've forgotten my mailing address...

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks, Derek for an excellent review. Really wanting to get my hands on some PM-V11 steel and try it out...

[David Weaver]

Really??? You have to ask???

Must be you've forgotten my mailing address...

Got it, Harold. I'll send you something really obscure and that doesn't cut very fast nor get a tool very sharp :)

Or one of the bags of stones I've come across that came out of a machinist shop - millions of little india stones that must've been used without oil until they were loaded, and then thrown away. :)

[Hilton Ralphs]

I think a dry grinder is slower than using a Tormek and I have nine mates who will attest to this.....

[Chris Griggs]

The ramp does make a significant difference. I have demonstrated this many times. I do not see its primary benefit as spreading wear. The angle is simply too low. For spreading wear, I would stay with a flat board and what you could do is have a high fence, and then add a removable (series of) layers to the shooting board's platform (i.e. building it higher). Then the workpiece will be in line with an unused section of the plane blade.


:) I knew you'd comment on that...I've read all your stuff in detail. Hence my note that some would disagree with my assertion. Could just be that my blades are so sharp there's just no room for improvement;).

In seriousness, I like my ramped shooting board, and am glad I made it. While I shouldn't say I don't think it does anything (sometimes things come out more black and white in when I write them then I intended), I haven't noticed a huge impact in ease of cut. For me, and I guess I should only speak for myself here..the difference is not all that significant. My mind may change someday...who knows... I have a good bit less experience with all this stuff than you.

It could just be another case of the woods we work being pretty different. Shooting end grain cherry and walnut or even hard maple isn't really all that difficult to begin with so the benefit may just be less noticeable for me. For that matter, I also don't find that a low angle of attack makes that much difference. Again, not saying it makes no difference, your tests and many people experience clearly demonstrate that it does. Its just that from my perspective the difference is not as huge in practice for me as many people say. I have some nasty something that I think is hickory in my shop...I should do some side by side playing with that on my straight and ramped boards. May highlight the extent to which the ramp is of benefit.

Of course, every little bit of improvement can add up to a big improvement, and I certainly wouldn't discourage people from using a ramped board and low angles.

You make a good point about it not spreading where all that much as I was thinking, especially on the stuff the size that gets shot typically. On wider boards the spread of wear is a little more significant since your using more of the slope. Your shim idea is an intriguing one, worth experimenting with. In fact, were I to make a shooting board again I'd almost be inclined to skip the trouble of making it sloped and just make a regular one and a stack of shims for it.

[paul cottingham]

Really??? You have to ask???

Must be you've forgotten my mailing address...
Now my wife is yelling at me cause I just shot coffee thru my nose all over the iPad.
Man.....

[Gary Muto]

Derek,
Thanks for another great review. It's a great plane too but I'm having a hard time justifying it... especially for a hybrid woodworker who already has a LV LAJ.

[Jim Koepke]

Great review Derek, thanks.

It also confirmed some of my thoughts about holding a plane when shooting. My shooting is mostly done with an LN #62 with a hot dog. Before getting this set up a #6 was used with a home made hot dog.

jtk

[Jim Belair]

Derek,
Thanks for another great review. It's a great plane too but I'm having a hard time justifying it... especially for a hybrid woodworker who already has a LV LAJ.

+1

I might pick up a PM-V11 blade for primarily shooting though.

[Jim Neeley]

I think a dry grinder is slower than using a Tormek and I have nine mates who will attest to this.....

Hilton,

Have you tried a stone like the 46 grit Norton 3x wheel? It grinds like chainsaw on a tree yet is quite cool due to its coarse grit. Still it only takes a few seconds (perhaps 10) to get a secondary bevel on a plane blade using a 1000g Shapton and perhaps 10 more to get a tertiary (15 secs or so if I add a couple mil of camber to the blade edges) with my 16K or 30K stones. Three or four seconds with the "ruler trick" on the fine stone to remove the burr on the back and I'm done. I traded in my finer white stones for the coarser wheel because I wasn't having to dip the tool nearly as often and would never go back.

Greetings from Alaska,

Jim

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Ohhhhh- I have an idea for those accessory holes- attach a miter slider to the plane and then route a miter slot in your shooting board. The plane will always stay on track and you can focus on pushing the plane rather than holding it tight to the fence.

[Harold Burrell]

Got it, Harold. I'll send you something really obscure and that doesn't cut very fast nor get a tool very sharp :)

Or one of the bags of stones I've come across that came out of a machinist shop - millions of little india stones that must've been used without oil until they were loaded, and then thrown away. :)

Oh, wow...what a guy!

And, not to be out done, I will send you some very nice gravel from my driveway. :p

[Jim Neeley]

Oh, wow...what a guy!

And, not to be out done, I will send you some very nice gravel from my driveway. :p

*Natural* stones, eh? <g>

[Joey Naeger]

Maybe I'm crazy but your shooting board looks ramped the wrong way to be used with the skewed blades in these planes. It seems like the ramp is putting your work closer to perpendicular to the cutting edge, negating the the skew effect slightly.

[Chris Griggs]

Maybe I'm crazy but your shooting board looks ramped the wrong way to be used with the skewed blades in these planes. It seems like the ramp is putting your work closer to perpendicular to the cutting edge, negating the the skew effect slightly.

The ramp of a shooting board doesn't skew the cut the same way a skewed blade does. The board holds the wood at a skew to the work allowing the blade to start the cut progressively, but it does not create a shearing cut and thus will not negate the shearing cut of a skewed blade regardless of the slopes direction. A skewed blade is skewed in relation to the motion of the plane so it does create a shearing cut throughout the entire stroke and lowers the effective angle of attack. Took me a while to wrap my head around the difference but skewing the work piece and skewing the blade in relation to the direction of the motion of the plane are not the same thing. Though you make a good point. I suppose that if the skew of the board was as such so that it negated the skew at the entry point it it could have some cancelling effect..as you say make it closer to perpendicular. Hope that makes sense....as I right this I'm realizing that I don't know what I';m talking about...I should just stop posting.

I'm not quite sure how/if a ramped board would benefit an already skewed blade anyway, but I believe Derek feels it does benefit the skewed bladed plane (not just the straight) and he obviously evaluates these things pretty thoroughly. Derek can probably explain it better.

[Hilton Ralphs]

It seems like the ramp is putting your work closer to perpendicular to the cutting edge, negating the the skew effect slightly.
Presactly!

[Derek Cohen]

The ramp of a shooting board doesn't skew the cut the same way a skewed blade does. The board holds the wood at a skew to the work allowing the blade to start the cut progressively, but it does not create a shearing cut and thus will not negate the shearing cut of a skewed blade regardless of the slopes direction

Chris has it.


I'm not quite sure how/if a ramped board would benefit an already skewed blade anyway, but I believe Derek feels it does benefit the skewed bladed plane (not just the straight) and he obviously evaluates these things pretty thoroughly. Derek can probably explain it better.

Perhaps not better, but this is what I wrote in an article on the topic: "While there is a much debate whether the ramped board can be said to impart a true slicing cut, there was no mistaking that any plane on the ramped board cut with less effort and less apparent impact than when used on a flat board.The ramped board does appear to cause the blade to hit the edge of the board at an angle, which leads to it enter the board at a progressive angle. By contrast, a flat board will cause a plane with a square blade to strike it across its full width."

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Cruea]

The ramp of a shooting board doesn't skew the cut the same way a skewed blade does. The board holds the wood at a skew to the work allowing the blade to start the cut progressively, but it does not create a shearing cut and thus will not negate the shearing cut of a skewed blade regardless of the slopes direction. A skewed blade is skewed in relation to the motion of the plane so it does create a shearing cut throughout the entire stroke and lowers the effective angle of attack. Took me a while to wrap my head around the difference but skewing the work piece and skewing the blade in relation to the direction of the motion of the plane are not the same thing. Though you make a good point. I suppose that if the skew of the board was as such so that it negated the skew at the entry point it it could have some cancelling effect..as you say make it closer to perpendicular. Hope that makes sense....as I right this I'm realizing that I don't know what I';m talking about...I should just stop posting.

I'm not quite sure how/if a ramped board would benefit an already skewed blade anyway, but I believe Derek feels it does benefit the skewed bladed plane (not just the straight) and he obviously evaluates these things pretty thoroughly. Derek can probably explain it better.

Hrm. . .I just had the epiphany about this. The ramp just basically makes it like the blade is sliding down the board being cut.

[Chris Griggs]

I wonder if the fact that the blade is sorta sliding across the wood creates a slicing action of sorts..even if its not the same as the skewed "shearing" action. Now I really need to go mess with my ramped board some more.

(says the guy who just yesterday went on and on about how he doesn't think it does that much :)...maybe I've just started taking it for granted)

[Chris Vandiver]

The ramp of a shooting board doesn't skew the cut the same way a skewed blade does. The board holds the wood at a skew to the work allowing the blade to start the cut progressively, but it does not create a shearing cut and thus will not negate the shearing cut of a skewed blade regardless of the slopes direction. A skewed blade is skewed in relation to the motion of the plane so it does create a shearing cut throughout the entire stroke and lowers the effective angle of attack. Took me a while to wrap my head around the difference but skewing the work piece and skewing the blade in relation to the direction of the motion of the plane are not the same thing. Though you make a good point. I suppose that if the skew of the board was as such so that it negated the skew at the entry point it it could have some cancelling effect..as you say make it closer to perpendicular. Hope that makes sense....as I right this I'm realizing that I don't know what I';m talking about...I should just stop posting.

I'm not quite sure how/if a ramped board would benefit an already skewed blade anyway, but I believe Derek feels it does benefit the skewed bladed plane (not just the straight) and he obviously evaluates these things pretty thoroughly. Derek can probably explain it better.

If you skew the work 20deg. and the plane slides straight forward, then the effect is the same as a 20deg. skewed blade. So it is possible to skew the work so that it counteracts a skewed blade.

I'm not sure I agree with "blind faith".

[Hilton Ralphs]

Nah, I still think Joey has a point. The ramp certainly negates the nice skew that Rob spent millions perfecting. To recreate the skew on a normal bench plane you would need to either raise the back of the plane or raise the front of the board. On Derek's ramped shooting board, the back is raised which does nothing for a sheer cut (so I agree with this part).

However with the forward skewed Veritas plane combined with a rear raised shooting board, you may as well just use a No.51.

Anyway that's how I see it but it is Hump Day so anything is possible.

[Chris Griggs]

If you skew the work 20deg. and the plane slides straight forward, then the effect is the same as a 20deg. skewed blade. So it is possible to skew the work so that it counteracts a skewed blade.

I'm not sure I agree with "blind faith".

Yeah, I don't agree with blind faith either.:)

I'm not sure this is correct though Chris. I'm not disagreeing that it might have *some* cancelling effect, but skewing the work and skewing the blade in relation to the forward motion of the plane are 2 different things, right? Regardless of how you skew the work, the blade is still skewed in relation to the motion of the plane...its still lowering the effective angle and its still taking a shearing cut. As far as I can tell skewing the work would only effect the cut at entry. Though, I've been known to be wrong before. I guess my only point is that the skewing of the work and the skewing of the blade in relation two the direction of motion are doing to different things....this may be a totally moot point in practice though.

[Adam Cruea]

Nah, I still think Joey has a point. The ramp certainly negates the nice skew that Rob spent millions perfecting. To recreate the skew on a normal bench plane you would need to either raise the back of the plane or raise the front of the board. On Derek's ramped shooting board, the back is raised which does nothing for a sheer cut (so I agree with this part).

However with the forward skewed Veritas plane combined with a rear raised shooting board, you may as well just use a No.51.

Anyway that's how I see it but it is Hump Day so anything is possible.

The blade is skewed as well on a No. 51 (at least LN's version of it). Same 20* skew as Rob's, I think.

[Gary Muto]

OK, my theory:
The ramp adds extra travel to the shooting process. lets say that you are shooting a 4" board and the ramp surface drops 1" over the 4". you have effectively pushed the plane 4" along the edge and 1" across the edge. If the amount of work (energy to make the cut (Force x Distance)) is conserved then it would feel easier. You have extended the distance by 25% so the force would drop 25%.

My numbers are an extreme exaggeration and my theory is probably wrong anyway but maybe someone else can correct me.

[Chris Griggs]

OK, my theory:
The ramp adds extra travel to the shooting process. lets say that you are shooting a 4" board and the ramp surface drops 1" over the 4". you have effectively pushed the plane 4" along the edge and 1" across the edge. If the amount of work (energy to make the cut (Force x Distance)) is conserved then it would feel easier. You have extended the distance by 25% so the force would drop 25%.

My numbers are an extreme exaggeration and my theory is probably wrong anyway but maybe someone else can correct me.

That's actually a very intriguing conjecture. Spreading the power needed to make the full cut over a longer difference...similar to how gears on a bike work. I'm just nerding out now. I just find this stuff interesting for whatever reason.

[Adam Cruea]

You'd actually be shrinking the distance.

Think of a ramped board like the hypotenuse of a right triangle. The hypotenuse is always longer than the base. In essence, let's say you have a 4 inch board on a ramped board 1 inch up. Lying flat, your plane has to travel 4 inches to cut a 4 inch board. Lifted up on that 1 inch fall, though, you only have to move the plane 3.87 inches.

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

In this case, we know A and C. . .1 and 4. So 1 + X = 16. X = 15, and we know X is a squared number. Sqrt 15 = 3.8729833462074168851792653997824.

At least, that's my understanding.

[Gary Muto]

You'd actually be shrinking the distance.

Think of a ramped board like the hypotenuse of a right triangle. The hypotenuse is always longer than the base. In essence, let's say you have a 4 inch board on a ramped board 1 inch up. Lying flat, your plane has to travel 4 inches to cut a 4 inch board. Lifted up on that 1 inch fall, though, you only have to move the plane 3.87 inches.

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

In this case, we know A and C. . .1 and 4. So 1 + X = 16. X = 15, and we know X is a squared number. Sqrt 15 = 3.8729833462074168851792653997824.

At least, that's my understanding.

Adam,
I agree and stand corrected. Thanks for the input!

[Jim Koepke]

I am confused, does the ramp increase the skew or does it decrease the skew of the blade?

Guess a cup of coffee and a bit of thinking about this is in order.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

Adam,
I agree and stand corrected. Thanks for the input!

Ah yes. Me too. I missed that. I'm not fit to call myself a former math teacher :(

[Chris Vandiver]

Yeah, I don't agree with blind faith either.:)

I'm not sure this is correct though Chris. I'm not disagreeing that it might have *some* cancelling effect, but skewing the work and skewing the blade in relation to the forward motion of the plane are 2 different things, right? Regardless of how you skew the work, the blade is still skewed in relation to the motion of the plane...its still lowering the effective angle and its still taking a shearing cut. As far as I can tell skewing the work would only effect the cut at entry. Though, I've been known to be wrong before. I guess my only point is that the skewing of the work and the skewing of the blade in relation two the direction of motion are doing to different things....this may be a totally moot point in practice though.


If the leading corner of the work is raised the same number of degrees as the skewed blade, then the effect is the blade moving through the work at 90deg.

Now if the trailing corner is raised(the ideal)then you would have some real slicing action.

[Gary Herrmann]

Has Rob or anyone at LV indicated that they're going to offer a corresponding shoot board?

[Rob Lee]

Has Rob or anyone at LV indicated that they're going to offer a corresponding shoot board?

Hi Gary -

No - we won't make a shooting board, there are boards already out there that this plane will fit. We will be releasing a track for planes to run in, and are working on a precision fence/head system that will allow people to make what they want.

Cheers -

Rob

[Chris Griggs]

Hi Gary -

No - we won't make a shooting board, there are boards already out there that this plane will fit. We will be releasing a track for planes to run in, and are working on a precision fence/head system that will allow people to make what they want.

Cheers -

Rob

Hi Rob, if you don't mind sharing, will these be designed just to fit the shooting plane or will they be adaptable to any number of planes that might be used for shooting? Based on your description, I imagine the track would only fit the Shooting Plane, but the precision fence could be adapted to a number of planes?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Hi Gary -

No - we won't make a shooting board, there are boards already out there that this plane will fit. We will be releasing a track for planes to run in, and are working on a precision fence/head system that will allow people to make what they want.

Cheers -

Rob

Placing my order. This is truly the best innovation in hand planes in quite some time. I love the style and thought that goes into LV planes. Well done! I think this is like a Dusenberg and the DX60 like a Ferrari.269577

[Rob Lee]

Hi Rob, if you don't mind sharing, will these be designed just to fit the shooting plane or will they be adaptable to any number of planes that might be used for shooting? Based on your description, I imagine the track would only fit the Shooting Plane, but the precision fence could be adapted to a number of planes?

Hi Chris!

The track should fit ours and Toms (I'll check that). There are two tapped holes on the "bottom" face of our shooting plane that will also ley you attach a plate sized to fit any track width you want, for other shooting boards of fixtures...

The head/fence unit is designed to be used on any board of your own making. Our focus here is a unit that you can adjust and zero after installation.

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Lee]

Placing my order. This is truly the best innovation in hand planes in quite some time. I love the style and thought that goes into LV planes. Well done! I think this is like a Dusenberg and the DX60 like a Ferrari.269577

Malcolm -

I'll be sure to pass your comments to the designer... who will no doubt be insufferably pleased with himself for days......

Cheers -

Rob

[Chris Griggs]

Hi Chris!

The track should fit ours and Toms (I'll check that). There are two tapped holes on the "bottom" face of our shooting plane that will also ley you attach a plate sized to fit any track width you want, for other shooting boards of fixtures...

The head/fence unit is designed to be used on any board of your own making. Our focus here is a unit that you can adjust and zero after installation.

Cheers -

Rob

Cool! Thanks for the info Rob. Always appreciated.

[Rob Lee]

Has Rob or anyone at LV indicated that they're going to offer a corresponding shoot board?

Gary -

I was remiss in not pointing this out....

http://www.evenfallstudios.com/woodworks/2013/08/28/shooting-boards-for-the-veritas-shooting-plane/#.Uh8-hzvvux8

No financial interest here....just glad to see another small maker do well. I beleive Tico Vogt may have a solution too....

Cheers -

Rob

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Hi Chris!

The track should fit ours and Toms (I'll check that). There are two tapped holes on the "bottom" face of our shooting plane that will also ley you attach a plate sized to fit any track width you want, for other shooting boards of fixtures...

The head/fence unit is designed to be used on any board of your own making. Our focus here is a unit that you can adjust and zero after installation.

Cheers -

Rob


AHA!!! That is what I was thinking when I saw it had threads. Cool. I ordered the plane yesterday. Keep us posted on how well they sell the first week. I suspect they will fly off the shelves. I noticed the day they came out two LN versions went up on eBay! Ha! Perhaps you have some converts already.

*** Not knocking LN and have given them plenty of love from the wallet.

[Adam Petersen]

I love seeing all the innovation that goes on at Veritas/Lee Valley. Now....about those tenon saws.....

[Joey Naeger]

The ramp of a shooting board doesn't skew the cut the same way a skewed blade does. The board holds the wood at a skew to the work allowing the blade to start the cut progressively, but it does not create a shearing cut and thus will not negate the shearing cut of a skewed blade regardless of the slopes direction....

Makes sense. It's only something that struck me as odd.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Now....about those tenon saws.....

Ask Derek, he's probably testing a couple as we speak....

[Chris Griggs]

Makes sense. It's only something that struck me as odd.

Yeah, I can totally see what you meant and what Chris V is saying. Quite frankly I don't think I really understand the effect/difference between a skewed blade and skewing the work not mention the potential for them to cancel each other out. I completely see how a board that is ramped the exact opposite amount of the skewed blade would cause the it hit the work at 90 degrees, but I don't think that's the whole story. They still seem different to me. Its one of those things that if I'm really motivated to know I'll need to go carefully observe the similarities and differences myself. Doesn't really matter though..whatever works is good, and I'm not sure I want to bother closely examining the differences and potential cancelling effects. There are far better way for me to spend my time in the work shop (and I need to keep telling myself that or I'll just end up tinkering endlessly an accomplish even less than I already do. :))

[Brian Loran]

Thanks for the info Rob! That sounds like a great compromise. A lower cost but just as functional solution for everyone (manufacturer and customer) by offering the critical components to build a solid chute board. So....... available this year, next year, some time in the future? My LV shoot plane should show up Tuesday so I will be building a new board for it ASAP. Maybe I will not spend much time on its quality and bells and whistles if these components will be available soon.

[Rob Lee]

Thanks for the info Rob! That sounds like a great compromise. A lower cost but just as functional solution for everyone (manufacturer and customer) by offering the critical components to build a solid chute board. So....... available this year, next year, some time in the future? My LV shoot plane should show up Tuesday so I will be building a new board for it ASAP. Maybe I will not spend much time on its quality and bells and whistles if these components will be available soon.

Hi -

After my lousy batting average quoting delivery time on the tenon saw (now Nov?????) I am leery of estimating too early. Both track and head involve tooling - so they're still a couple of months away at absolute earliest. I'll be pushing the track quickly... the head will be several months, as it is still in the quoting stage.

Cheers -

Rob
(who can confirm that the track design is adjustable for planes or plates 2" - 2 1/4" in width)

[Chris Griggs]

The point being made in itself isn't necessarily a bad one. E.G. does the plane meet the basic criteria of doing what it is designed to do (despite the fact that our buddy Charles, found a way to make such a simple question sound as critical as possible).

That said, at this point I'm quite comfident that both LN and LV planes will do this and in the rare occasion that a dud gets slipped past the goaly I also know either company would make it right. I can't speak for why Derek didn't include this, but given both companies reputations, I doubt that most potential buyers are really asking themselves whether or not is succeed at the most basic level...I for one have no interest in seeing a review where someone hold a square up to a light and pronounces the tool good. If there were an obvious basic problem I'm sure it would be corrected before the tool even went to market, so I'd much rather see an attempt at objectively describing differences in design/function/features that impact the subjective experience of the user. I thought Derek did a very good job of describing the difference in bedding, mouth adjustments, weight, centers of gravity, and how those things impact use experience. Those things are much more important to the potential buyer who already has confidence that both work on a basic level and is trying to figure out which will suit them best.

[Gary Muto]

I think we got the point about PM steel from other reviews of yours. I don't see anything in this review of the new Lee Valley shooting plane that mentions whether or not the plane produced squared boards -- no photos of boards being tested for square, no verbiage to that effect. Can you explain why this was omitted? The review appears to be mostly a rehash of tests of various tool steels, or at least a good portion of it is. PM outlasted A2, B12, Vitamin C, yada, yada, yada.


Mr Stanford,

Perhaps you could provide us with one of your reviews to show us how it should be done. I personally have enjoyed reviews by Derek (here and on his site) more than probably any other single source.

Derek,

Apologies from the norhern hemisphere and please continue to keep up the good work.

Best Regards,

[Malcolm Schweizer]

If it didn't cut squarely then I would blame the shooting board, not the plane.

[paul cottingham]

Btw, great review, Derek.

[Charlie Stanford]

Btw, great review, Derek.

Three reasons it wouldn't plane square: 1) shooting board itself; 2) plane; 3) user.

Not necessarily in that order.

If you're reading a review about a shooting board plane I think it's reasonable to see something included in the review referring to the plane's ability to do what it was designed to do -- produce a square end on a board (or a prescribed angle), and not withstand a patently absurd test of edge longevity on species less than 1% of the people who will ever buy the plane will actually ever use. That's my take on it. Sorry if that rankles you Paul.

[Harold Burrell]

Gary, I'd be tickled to death to review one and will promptly do so when I receive one free like Derek did. But actually he reviewed his own work since he was involved in design and prototyping. If he panned the plane then he would have been panning his own work. Objective? Not really.

Sounds like his wasn't so "free" after all. I mean, if he was involved in the making of it, it then stands to reason that he would get one in return.

;)

[David Weaver]

I think we got the point about PM steel from other reviews of yours. I don't see anything in this review of the new Lee Valley shooting plane that mentions whether or not the plane produced squared boards --

Plenty of people must've thought this was one of the most hilarious "questions" they've seen so far.

"Questions" is in quotes, because it has to be revised to include throwing shiny hooks. I can't believe anyone would actually ask that out loud and not delete it after they thought about it for a second. Really, I can't.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I really am tired of the snarky, sophomoric, baiting responses to this thread. A lot of this is not the level of civility expected at SawMillCreek.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

If someone feels that a post or poster is out of line or violating the TOSs. Report the post. Reported posts create a thread in the Moderator's Forum and all Moderators can see it.

When an individuals posts are reported often enough, there is evidence that all the Moderators can see. Then it's easy to justify removing someone's posting privileges.

[Pedro Reyes]

Three reasons it wouldn't plane square: 1) shooting board itself; 2) plane; 3) user.



Of these you can't expect anyone to review 1 much less 3, and I think it has been demonstrated enough that a company like Lee Valley can hit 90 degrees pretty consistently... I found the review useful.


On the other debate...

Skewing the blade (to direction of travel) lowers the angle, in This case by about 2 degrees. Angling the board does two things (assuming the blade is not skewed), it spreads the wear along more of the blade width, and it reduces the initial shock of meeting at the full board thickness.

In an angled board with a skewed blade, you still get the lowered angle benefit from the skew, you also spread the wear, but if you angle the board at the same angle of skew you lose the benefit of starting at a corner and instead shock at that full board width.

I also believe that while the initial shock is reduced on angled boards, throughout the majority of the cut you need more force to cut since you are cutting wider than the board's width, this may be unnoticeable since less momentum is lost from starting at the corner and not full width.

/p

[Hilton Ralphs]

Soooo, who has ordered one?

From what Rob has told us about the accessories coming in the not too distant future, overall this sounds like a decent investment.

Those retail shooting boards that rob mentioned are very nice but "very" expensive. I don't doubt they are mad extremely well but I can't see myself forking our $300 for some plywood. I'm not knocking the product, just saying it's something I'd rather make myself.

Each to their own of course.

[Mark AJ Allen]

I would like to think that if the plane wasn't capable of producing a squared corner, it wouldn't even be worth the time to review, nor would it be worth LV's reputation to sell it. I'm certain if it didn't make square corners, it would have been evident and reported. What I found most interesting is the quantitative evaluation of how long the blades lasted for the shooting tests.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Soooo, who has ordered one?

From what Rob has told us about the accessories coming in the not too distant future, overall this sounds like a decent investment.

Those retail shooting boards that rob mentioned are very nice but "very" expensive. I don't doubt they are mad extremely well but I can't see myself forking our $300 for some plywood. I'm not knocking the product, just saying it's something I'd rather make myself.

Each to their own of course.

I ordered one. It has not shipped yet but I figure today it should ship and I should have it next week. I love the idea of being able to add a track to it. Also I will add a rail to the edge of my shooting board now that I have a proper shooter with a straight edge on both sides.

I missed the post about the $300 shooting board you are referring to, but I certainly agree- that is a lot for a jig. Heck, that's almost what the plane costs.

[Derek Cohen]

I have no idea what the costs will be, if they are value-for-money or not, but I have seen the a rendering of the fence and track, and both are really terrific designs. There will be no disappointment in regard to their design.

The shooting boards of both Rob Hansen (Evenfall) and Tico are both excellent from their pictures (again I have only seen pictures). I have built my own boards (no, not for sale) and this is what I recommend that others do first, if they have the time and inclination. Lots of articles on my website.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Cruea]

Plenty of people must've thought this was one of the most hilarious "questions" they've seen so far.

"Questions" is in quotes, because it has to be revised to include throwing shiny hooks. I can't believe anyone would actually ask that out loud and not delete it after they thought about it for a second. Really, I can't.

Honestly, and I'm not defending anyone. . .it's one of those things that probably *should* be included.

I mean, come on. . .we have warnings on hair dryers and toasters these days to warn people that they aren't to be used in the shower. While it's obvious to us here, I can see someone seriously asking "but does it cut a 90* angle??" (probably while shoving his finger up his nose far enough to tickle his brain). I guess Charlie, oddly, brings up a good point; point out the obvious. Probably not in the best way, but again. . .people have to be told not to take electrical appliances into water-filled containers. Intelligent and deductive is not what I would call a large portion of the human race.

Now, on the vein of the PM-V11. . .I'd like to see a review of the PM-V11 blade vs. LN A2 blade. Not that there's a personal interest there or anything. :D

[Malcolm Schweizer]

269662 Here is the one I just built. There is going to be a 45 degree attachment that clamps in with the hold-downs. Now that I have this plane I will add a miter slot and put a miter slider on the plane. Not sure why the picture is loading upside-down.

[Rob Lee]

Gary, I'd be tickled to death to review one and will promptly do so when I receive one free like Derek did. But actually he reviewed his own work since he was involved in design and prototyping. If he panned the plane then he would have been panning his own work. Objective? Not really.

Charles -

Let's play fair here - Derek does not design tools for us.. he offers his feedback, and impressions. And he's one of many people that do the same. Yes he makes good observations - as he actually does a lot of woodworking. Design here is 80% consensus, and 20% dictatorship.

Cheers -

Rob (the dictator)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Rob (the dictator)

I see a movie in the future.

[Adam Petersen]

Sooooo....if it's Derek's review, can't he decide which criteria to include and which not to? I think the quality of the iron is an important aspect of the plane personally.

Derek, if you do end up demonstrating the plane can shoot a 90, please also review the square you use to confirm this. And please review the reference block you use to confirm the square you use to confirm the board you shot with the plane. Then and only then will I believe you that this is a quality tool......

[george wilson]

Adam,what is your post supposed to mean? I very seriously doubt that LV would put out a plane that is not square,or a less than excellent quality tool.

[Adam Petersen]

George, I'm just being sarcastic regarding Charlie's posts. I am a true believer in the quality of Veritas AND Derek's reviews. I've visited his site often for information that has helped me make informed decisions on purchases. I shouldn't even participate. Thank you Rob Lee for the innovative tools and thank you Derek for spending time reviewing them and posting great articles on them.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Our civility problems with this thread have been permanently solved. Please do not rise to any bait.

[James Conrad]

Mine arrived yesterday:)

[Gary Herrmann]

Gary -

I was remiss in not pointing this out....

http://www.evenfallstudios.com/woodworks/2013/08/28/shooting-boards-for-the-veritas-shooting-plane/#.Uh8-hzvvux8

No financial interest here....just glad to see another small maker do well. I beleive Tico Vogt may have a solution too....

Cheers -

Rob

Thanks Rob. I think I'll wait and see what your track and head are like. And I'm thinking about your new chisel plane. You evil, evil man.

[James Baker SD]

Ordered mine two days ago. Will get the support items as soon as they come out.

James

[Jim Koepke]

A few images might be of interest here.

Start a cut with the mouth open as wide as possible and either figure a way to take a flash picture as the cut is being made or stop when the cut is fully engaged to reveal the angle of the blade across the piece being cut.

From looking at pictures of Derek's shooting board it looks like the blade of a standard plane makes first contact with the bottom of the work piece.

Has anyone made a shooting board with the ramping opposite to this?

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Awwww man! You beat me. Mine just shipped. I live offshore so expect it by Wednesday or so.

[Adam Cruea]

A few images might be of interest here.

Start a cut with the mouth open as wide as possible and either figure a way to take a flash picture as the cut is being made or stop when the cut is fully engaged to reveal the angle of the blade across the piece being cut.

From looking at pictures of Derek's shooting board it looks like the blade of a standard plane makes first contact with the bottom of the work piece.

Has anyone made a shooting board with the ramping opposite to this?

jtk

I've actually been thinking of doing so since the 51 I have has the skew so that Derek's ramp slightly cancels the skew out just to see the results. I wanted to set up a shooting board that had 2 or 3 barrel nuts in the back that were synchro-turned in some way so that the incline of the board could be varied.

Alas, I am lazy, though, and have not done so.

[James Conrad]

Awwww man! You beat me. Mine just shipped. I live offshore so expect it by Wednesday or so.

You'll probably get to use yours first, it will be another month +/- before my shop is finished, couldn't let the discount go by. But, when the shop is done it will go right to work, along with my LN 62 in comparison, squaring up shop made veneer for a long overdue commission. Hoping to relegate the 62 to other tasks it is better suited for although it has made a fine shooting plane. This will be my first PMV11 iron as I have not been completely sold on all the hype, proof will be in the pudding as they say...

[Pedro Reyes]

I've actually been thinking of doing so since the 51 I have has the skew so that Derek's ramp slightly cancels the skew out just to see the results. I wanted to set up a shooting board that had 2 or 3 barrel nuts in the back that were synchro-turned in some way so that the incline of the board could be varied.

Alas, I am lazy, though, and have not done so.

Angling the board does not cancel the lower cutting angle benefit of a skewed blade, regardless of ramp direction.

I have to assume people angled boards because it enables the blade to enter the cut progressively as opposed to facing the board at full width, additionally it uses more of the blade which means the blade wears more slowly and this over time also has a positive effect.

/p

[Derek Cohen]

Sooooo....if it's Derek's review, can't he decide which criteria to include and which not to? I think the quality of the iron is an important aspect of the plane personally.

Derek, if you do end up demonstrating the plane can shoot a 90, please also review the square you use to confirm this. And please review the reference block you use to confirm the square you use to confirm the board you shot with the plane. Then and only then will I believe you that this is a quality tool......

Adam, I plan to use this square. It should keep everyone happy ...

http://flairwoodworks.com/2013/04/01/magic-square-changed-how-i-work/

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Petersen]

Ha! I'd like to see the Derek Cohen Magic Square. Some crazy Aussie wood, artistic detailing and brass pivoting pin. I think that would be a tool to buy. Rob, you may have your 2014 April fools tool there.

[Derek Cohen]

Regarding the ramped board ...

I had a close look today. The ramp does work against the skew, however we are talking 4 degrees here, and the blade is skewed 20 degrees.

I would conclude that the ramped shooting board is to be used with a straight bladed plane, where it will reduce the jarring on impact. The skewed blade of the #51-type (LV and LN) will work best on a flat shooting board.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pedro Reyes]

Regarding the ramped board ...

I had a close look today. The ramp does work against the skew...

Derek

I partially agree with this, which also means I partially disagree ;-)

A skewed blade on a shooting plane used on a shooting board, has 3 benefits
- lowered angle
- spread wear over more blade (basically the hypotenuse at 20 degrees)
- entering the cut progressively

Of these 3, angling the board could negate the 3rd one, completely at 20 degrees, but have no effect on the first one, it can also improve on 2.

/p

[Adam Cruea]

Regarding the ramped board ...

I had a close look today. The ramp does work against the skew, however we are talking 4 degrees here, and the blade is skewed 20 degrees.

I would conclude that the ramped shooting board is to be used with a straight bladed plane, where it will reduce the jarring on impact. The skewed blade of the #51-type (LV and LN) will work best on a flat shooting board.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Do you think a reverse-ramped board (where the raise is in the back as opposed to the front) would help any with a LV/LN skewed blade? Any clue where the magical "the gains are minimal" point is?

Just curious here. . .

[Harold Burrell]

Please do not rise to any bait.

Yeah...that would be me.

I'm sorry. :o

[Pedro Reyes]

Do you think a reverse-ramped board (where the raise is in the back as opposed to the front) would help any with a LV/LN skewed blade? Any clue where the magical "the gains are minimal" point is?

Just curious here. . .

I am not speaking for Derek but I see several things going on here which influence what ultimately could be a subjective perception.

Reduced cutting angle, this is due to blade skew... And I hope we all agree that ramping the board in either direction has no effect here.

Initial shock or jarring, this is influenced by both skew and ramp. On a straight blade, optimal entry would be a board at 45 degrees. Except of course there is not enough blade width to accommodate hardly any boards at anything more Ghana few degrees on a ramp, but let's ignore that. Similarly at 20 degree skew a board at 25 degrees is optimal for this factor only... Initial jarring.

Another aspect is width of cut, also influenced by both skew and ramp angle, more width more force needed. Ramping in the usual direction reduces width of cut with the minimal optimal at 20 degrees (remember this also increases the initial jarring on a 20 degree skew to the maximum). Any more angle (or any less) from 20 on the ramp, starts increasing the width of cut.

Finally there is wear, which does not always follow width of cut, the effect of this is over time after a blade wears less quickly. To figure this out you can take one corner of your board and measure the vertical distance to the opposite corner, and that is your width of cut, on both straight and skew planes minimal is at flat maximum is at 90.

It is all a compromise between these things, if you have a lot of mass likely cutting angle (only affected by skew) is more important than jarring, if you don't jarring becomes increasingly more important.

/p

[Jim Koepke]

Another aspect is width of cut, also influenced by both skew and ramp angle, more width more force needed.

There may also be the difference of a shearing cut and a slicing cut and where they diverge. My understanding of these could be totally wrong, but what the heck.

In my view, a straight on cut is a shearing cut. A slicing cut comes about when the work piece, the blade or both are skewed away from a straight on attack. My presumption is a shearing cut requires more effort than a slicing cut.

We also have the bedding angles to consider. If the Veritas Shooting Plane was available a few years ago, it might have been my choice over the LN #62 for a shooting plane. As it is, if a little extra money comes my way the VSP may still find a place in my shop.

jtk

[Pedro Reyes]

There may also be the difference of a shearing cut and a slicing cut and where they diverge. My understanding of these could be totally wrong, but what the heck.

In my view, a straight on cut is a shearing cut. A slicing cut comes about when the work piece, the blade or both are skewed away from a straight on attack. My presumption is a shearing cut requires more effort than a slicing cut.

We also have the bedding angles to consider. If the Veritas Shooting Plane was available a few years ago, it might have been my choice over the LN #62 for a shooting plane. As it is, if a little extra money comes my way the VSP may still find a place in my shop.

jtk

Jim, I'm not sure how to define them. But for the most part all end grain cuts are shearing cuts.

But I think what you mean is for example cutting a stalk of celery is easier if you pull your knife as you push it down, that simply pushing the knife down (slicing vs shearing).

This is influenced in our case by the skew only I believe, not the board angle, I am assuming fibers are round.

/p

[Adam Cruea]

Yeah, I'm just going to step away because there's a break-down in communication here somewhere. I think I'm referencing definitions of words others are not (which could be a misunderstanding of the terms on my part), and the physics in my mind just are simply not adding up.

For example, in my mind, shearing is done with 2 blades. A plane is a single blade and slices, whereas scissors cut through a shearing action caused by two edges sliding past each other. A plane will *never* shear since it has a single blade. So nothing person to anyone. Perhaps I'll come back with a nice formula or something at some point to get across what I'm saying. :)

[John Stankus]

Maybe his should have its own thread, but am I the only one who noticed that the new Lee Valley woodworking catalog showed up in their ipad app a couple of days ago?

John

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Yeah, I'm just going to step away because there's a break-down in communication here somewhere. I think I'm referencing definitions of words others are not (which could be a misunderstanding of the terms on my part), and the physics in my mind just are simply not adding up.

For example, in my mind, shearing is done with 2 blades. A plane is a single blade and slices, whereas scissors cut through a shearing action caused by two edges sliding past each other. A plane will *never* shear since it has a single blade. So nothing person to anyone. Perhaps I'll come back with a nice formula or something at some point to get across what I'm saying. :)

I do see your point. I looked it up, and it turns out there are multiple definitions, so it could be used either way. Your definition: b : any of various cutting tools or machines operating by the action of opposed cutting edges of metal —usually used in plural

however, it can also mean: a : internal force tangential to the section on which it acts —called also shearing forceb : an action or stress resulting from applied forces that causes or tends to cause two contiguous parts of a body to slide relatively to each other in a direction parallel to their plane of concontacting

As for the discussion on ramping the shooting board, there is no need to ramp the board with a skewed blade because it is already angled to the wood. In the case of the Veritas shooter, the angle would be negated on an upward ramp, and enhanced on a downward ramp, but I don't see the need for an angle greater than what the plane comes with, and enhancing the angle would also minimize the thickness of board that could be cut.

[Jim Koepke]

For example, in my mind, shearing is done with 2 blades. A plane is a single blade and slices, whereas scissors cut through a shearing action caused by two edges sliding past each other. A plane will *never* shear since it has a single blade. So nothing person to anyone. Perhaps I'll come back with a nice formula or something at some point to get across what I'm saying.

Actually, you may be saying this clearer or more correct than my post, re: shear vs slice.

Maybe it would be clearer comparing it to pushing a blade straight into the edge of a piece of paper as opposed to presenting one corner of the blade to the paper and sliding it to the opposite corner while it is being pushed through the paper.

Maybe it is just being up so late that has my mind trying to figure it out.

jtk

[Pedro Reyes]

... there is no need to ramp the board with a skewed blade because it is already angled to the wood. In the case of the Veritas shooter, the angle would be negated on an upward ramp, and enhanced on a downward ramp, but I don't see the need for an angle greater than what the plane comes with, and enhancing the angle would also minimize the thickness of board that could be cut.

people keep saying this, and while I will not attach any qualitative adjectives (better, necessary or so) this is simply inaccurate.

a board at an angle is not the same as a skewed blade. Skewing the blade relative to direction of travel (as is on the LV plane used on a shooting board) among other things lowers the cutting angle, and this effect CAN NOT be enhanced or undone by ramping the board.

Wood is anisotropic, but end grain cuts at 90 degrees are isotropic (this means independent of direction), basically on faces and edges direction of travel matters, across the grain or along the grain (both with and against) make a difference. But on end grain direction does not matter, except if someone would argue the direction of rings on engrain (i.e. easier to cut flatsawn endgrain over quartersawn end grain)... if this is accepted, then the only other variables are cutting angle, cutting width and the initial shock or jarring effect. Angling the board has an effect on all but cutting angle.

Which one of all these is more important, may be subjective, not to mention influenced by the plane's mass in the case of jarring, the dimensions of the board in the case of width of cut, etc.

I am refraining from attaching qualitative arguments, just trying to explain the cutting physics

/p

[Derek Cohen]

There was a post today on Wood Central that raised the question of the ramped board and the skew of the #51 type plane. Of course I cannot link to that website, so I have copied part of my reply here:

First of all, the ramp angle of the shooting board is about 5 degrees, and the angle of the skew on the plane is 20 degrees.


The main advantage of the ramped board is to reduce the impact as the plane blade hits it. In a flat board with a square blade the impact would be square on. That produces maximum impact vibration. The ramping of the shooting board platform enables the blade to enter the wood progressively, that is, at an angle of 5 degrees, and this reduces the jarring from impact. A plane with a skewed blade, such as a #51-type, would enter the wood on a flat board at a progressive 20 degrees. On the ramped board this gets reduced to 15 degrees. For entry purposes this is insignificant. I would argue, nevertheless, that the main benefit from a ramped shooting board would be found for a shooting plane with a square blade.


The fact that there is a change of angle at impact does not mean that there is any change in the cutting performance of a skewed blade on a ramped shooting board. Once past the impact zone, the blade continues to cut as it always does. It is the shearing action of the skewed blade on the plane that is the strength of the #51-type shooter. The angle at which the work piece is held should not have any effect.


You may wish to read a comparison I made between three shooting planes (LN #51, LN #9 and LV LA Jack) on both flat and ramped shooting boards:http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared.html


Scan down to "Cutting Angles and the Effect of Skew".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Hello all,

Well it came! My new shooting plane is here! Of course the thing came while I was out of town so I didn't get to lay hands on it until Friday. By the way, thanks to air conditioned post office and humid, non-air conditioned shop, it already got its first bit of rust, but it knocked right off. I should have left it packaged and let it come to shop temperature but I couldn't wait, and it got a little condensation on it.

So certainly this is my new favorite plane. I am very pleased and I still feel it is one of the most innovative new planes in recent years. Certainly it does the job it is designed to do, but it's also very artistically rendered and so much sexier than a square miter plane. Kudos to the designers.

I love the adjustable mouth, the grub screws for maintaining blade adjustment, and the tapped holes for a miter track or a fence. Nice touch.

One negative, however, is the milling of the gap where the blade goes. It is very rough, and for me in the tropics that means harder to wax and easier to rust. Aside from that is has no effect on the use and/or accuracy of the plane.

certainly if my shop ever caught on fire it would be one of the first tools I grabbed, along with her brothers and sisters in the bevel up department.

270960

[Hilton Ralphs]

Nice Malcolm!

Is that the Jack you have there?

[Jim Koepke]

I am a little jealous. If I had not bought my shooting plane solution a few years back I would likely want one of these.


One negative, however, is the milling of the gap where the blade goes. It is very rough, and for me in the tropics that means harder to wax and easier to rust.

There are a few ways you might give a thought to on this:

1) Work the area your self with abrasive sheets and stones. (lots of work)

2) Brush an oil wax mixture into the area.

3) Paint the bare metal to protect it.

I live south of North America's tropical rain forest and know humidity well.

Just curious, where do you call home?

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

@Hilton, the one on the left is the jack. The middle is the jointer, which I LOVE due to the fence system.

@Jim, already working on refining the grind and put a little wax on it. Painting is a good idea. I might just do that. Home is the US Virgin Islands. We just had a lot of rain so it is very humid. The A/C in the car blows out steam!