Oliver Model 166 12" Jointer Restoration

[Sal Kurban]

I am thinking about restoring an Oliver 166 jointer. When Transporting it, the direct drive 5 HP motor hit the wall and cracked into pieces. The machine has the older clam shell cutterhead which is said to be extremely dangerous to the life and limbs of the operator.I am having a hard time removing the cutterhead and the rotor assembly. Since I intended to replace the cutter head, I have the following options:

1) Restore the original motor (this requires rebuilding the motor nsince the impact damaged the windings)
2) Fit the machine with a brand new belt driven motor and a tersa or shelix cutterhead
3) Brand new motor but find an old planer or jointer cutterhead and machine it to size to accept a pulley.
4) Not worth restoring; scrap the jointer (weighs about 1600 lbs) and forget about it

Any feedback?
Thanks,
Sal.

[Keith Weber]

Sal,

First thing I'd do is get rid of the clam shell cutter head. If you still had the motor intact, I'd consider having a Byrd head made so that the motor attached to the cutter head. On a Northfield, the cutter head shaft IS the motor shaft - it does not bolt on. I'm not familiar with Oliver to know if the motor on the direct drive bolts on, or is integral to the cutter head. If it is integral, it would add to the cost of making the cutter head. Something to consider. Direct drives are said to run smoother than belt drives, but there is only one speed (that of the motor) unless you use a VFD. On a belt drive, you can make the cutter head speed whatever you want with pulleys.

Given that you've destroyed the direct drive motor, I would go the way of modifying it to be a belt drive and get a head machined of your liking. Don't forget to build a belt guard if you do. This also gives you the option of putting whatever motor you want on it, too (ie. single phase, if it's your only 3-phase machine).

Keith

[Jeff Duncan]

I believe there are 2 ways I remember seeing direct drive motors. One is as mentioned by Keith with a singular shaft that runs through the motor. The other is with a Lovejoy type connection. I would think that the latter would be easier to replace the motor and cutterhead. With the former I'm not sure what the 'best' bet would be as even if you rebuild the motor you would still ideally want to replace the cutterhead to a more modern and safer version. I think with a little investment in time and $$$ any of the first three options should yield you a very nice and fully functioning machine. Which way to go is really personal preference as guys use all three methods to modernize their machines. Do some reading, especially at OWWM where this type of thing has been discussed and guys have gone through similar fixes in the past, before you make any decisions.

As far as the jointer being worth saving....of course it is! If someone still made that jointer today your probably talking about a $8k or more machine! If you get to the point where you don't want to attack the problem I'd suggest simply posting it for sale in a place where folks who like old machines will see it. There's likely someone out there who will be up to the challenge.

good luck,
JeffD

[Sal Kurban]

Thanks gentlemen for the thoughtful suggestions and ideas. I believe the motor to be a direct drive with no lovejoy type connection. Now I am inclined to find a jointer or planer cutterhead and fit them. I presume they have to be the same diameter as the original, correct? Also is there a substantial disadvantage to conventional 3-knife cutterheads as opposed to 4-knife cuterheads?
Sal.

[Mel Fulks]

Many old timers, and I'm one of them ,prefer 2 or 3 knife heads. Real old one are usually 2 knife. My theory is they went to more knives when they started putting cheaper lower grade knives in new machines.

[jack forsberg]

Many old timers, and I'm one of them ,prefer 2 or 3 knife heads. Real old one are usually 2 knife. My theory is they went to more knives when they started putting cheaper lower grade knives in new machines.

I sure do like the 2 knife Wadkin Head. It a plate type like the Oliver but with out the problems or dangers.

the head is 6" round and very heavy too.

here you can see that the cutter block is tapered on the sides the jointer knifes plates/clams go. unlike the Oliver witch is a German head sold to them.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead001.jpg




the wadkin is old too could be before 1920 that head has keyed jacking/ knife adjustment screws and you don't need the plates to to hold the knifes from slipping like the Oliver head. the stud hole is through the head and the stud bottom on a small rim on the top edge.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead002.jpg


a set of Wadkin spent knifes(no life left) with the key slot at the back on the blade. only half of the knifes are useful in this design. the blade are about 1 1/2" wide when new. You are still able to get theses from wadkin.


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead003.jpg
i have found regular knifes placed in front of the key screw. this is very dangerous with this type head.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead004.jpg
I have a 12" section for moulding knifes in this 26" jointer head and it does not upset the straight knifes.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead005.jpg


the hard wood side of the head is thinner than the softwood side of the head by about 5/8" this is what skews the knife. Yes boys skewed knives.with a jointer 26" wide and skewed knifes sending a board through skewed on the table leaves no desire for the new helical heads.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead006.jpg
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead007.jpg
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rmhead009.jpg


hope you enjoyed the view of the Wadkin Plate type head. You never get me to change this baby.

[David Kumm]

Sal, I know there have been lots of conversions over on OWWM, usually to keep the direct drive but sometimes to belt drive as well. Heads of the same diameter have been cut down and are very seldom Oliver as they are rare. Powermatic are more likely. If you find something that works the 3 vs 4 head is kind of irrelevant. Belt drive spins faster anyway and 4 knife are much more rare. I generally wouldn't bother with a byrd on a jointer but unless you can find a straight knife for cheap, the Byrd will probably return part of it's price in resale value. If the jointer had a grinder you would want to keep a straight knife. Dave

[jack forsberg]

David

Of all the talk there i think/know you will only find one person that cut a head down from a larger one and yes i do believe its was a 4 knife powermatic that Phil C pick had 4 of and handed out. That person was Bill T.who knows maybe Ray will finish the portor and make it two people but the years go by don't they.I think that after you pay a machine shop you will think the Byrd is a deal . You do get a full set of knifes with it.





Sal, I know there have been lots of conversions over on OWWM, usually to keep the direct drive but sometimes to belt drive as well. Heads of the same diameter have been cut down and are very seldom Oliver as they are rare. Powermatic are more likely. If you find something that works the 3 vs 4 head is kind of irrelevant. Belt drive spins faster anyway and 4 knife are much more rare. I generally wouldn't bother with a byrd on a jointer but unless you can find a straight knife for cheap, the Byrd will probably return part of it's price in resale value. If the jointer had a grinder you would want to keep a straight knife. Dave

[David Kumm]

Jack, I think you are right. More talk than actual modification. With pristine old jointers as cheap as they are, there isn't a lot of money to be made in buying a project jointer as when they commanded a higher price. I remember when an ITCH head cost more than the entire 299 goes for now. Dave

[Mike Leung]

I really enjoy using my Tersa cutter head. It really puts a beautiful sheen to jointed surfaces.

[Jeff Duncan]

Many old timers, and I'm one of them ,prefer 2 or 3 knife heads. Real old one are usually 2 knife. My theory is they went to more knives when they started putting cheaper lower grade knives in new machines.

I'm not an old timer.....so I like my 4 knife head:D In reality the number of knives doesn't make a difference as you can control the speed of the head, (usually), and the speed of the feed on a jointer. With the faster speeds and additional knives on modern jointers you can feed really fast, which I find beneficial when staring down a cart load of lumber!

I also think David and Jack are right that by the time you buy a head and have a machine shop mill it correctly for you it'll likely cost more than having Byrd make one. Unless of course you have a very close friend with a machine shop;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Jeff is right, but anyone new and buying first machine needs to read it carefully. He correctly mentions head speed. There
is a principle involved here that is easily misunderstood. A bandsaw with two teeth per inch can be fed faster than same
machine AT SAME BLADE SPEED with four teeth per inch. On modern jointers which do not allow the deep cuts possible on
old ones,simply because table won't drop down as far,most of this is moot. One advantage of four knife head is they can
also be used with just two knives. And with two high grade replacing two low grade knives....surface would be just as good. Forgot head diameter ,that matters too. My previous speculation about advent of four knife heads is based on the fact that they did not exist before the low grade steel grade steel came in and took biggest share of market....I think...

[Sal Kurban]

Very good ideas; did not think of these aspects. Now, on another point: Grizzly makes a replacement spiral cuterhead as in the T10127 for the G0609 for about $660. Aside from whether it would fit, would this offer any advantage over a conventional cutterhead? I am not expecting a Shelix performance but I do not want to invest in something that will yield sub par results.

As far as machining, I have access to a machine shop at a cost of $60/hour. Also I might wait as I am taking a machining class at the community college in the spring semester. Right now, I am taking a welding class at the community college.
Sal.

[Jeff Duncan]

If it's a spiral head as in solid knives that curve slightly around the head, I would worry about sharpening? Would you have to replace them with new every time, or can they be sharpened easily by a local shop? Also how hard are they to set compared to straight knives? I don't honestly know but those are a couple questions I'd want to know the answers to before proceeding.

A typical 3 or 4 knife head will yield you very good results on a machine like that. As Mel has mentioned there are a lot of factors to cut quality and you have them in that machine. A solid heavy cast frame to eliminate vibration and a large diameter head amongst other things. It's more a question of what's going to deliver the most bang for the buck. So you have to price out the cost of a large cutter head, which although are not rare are also not necessarily cheap. Then the cost to have it machined to either convert to a pulley driven machine, or if possible machined to work with your motor in a direct drive situation. I think the Byrd is going to be competitive, but you'll have to do some homework and talk to some machinists to really know for sure!

Now as far as machining a head...this is not something your going to be able to do after a couple courses at the local college. This is a head which needs to be perfect in order to function properly and most important safely! I personally wouldn't recommend this as a project for anyone less than a well experienced professional....IMHO;)

good luck,
JeffD

[jack forsberg]

I think why many like the new heads is they put the knifes in a true cutting circle with out any skill. If you are not good at setting knifes its not going to matter how many knifes are in the head if there not set to withing the cutting circle by a thou or two. I like to stone the knifes off the back table to improve on this and this is what gets the best results. Really if the setting of knifes is off you are only really getting a one knife cut(the high knife). I find it an easy skill to master and it useful on the spindle moulder,or any thing that requires setting knifes. As to the cost of these heads i find it cheaper to by more than one machine so i don't have to change knives. i have 4 jointers in the shop set with HSS knifes all set for different work and the 6" 8" 16" and 26" combined cost me less than one of these heads. What bothers me the most with the new heads is i have to rely on a suppler for a cutting edge and so i become less self sufficient as a woodworker.

[Sal Kurban]

OK, I will not mess with machining something like this after just one class. I work at the university and they have a machine shop and a machinist I can hire. With budget cuts, they actually encourage us to commission work at the machine shop. The machinist charges $60/hour which is very reasonable.

I gather Shelix makes a cutterhead for this Oliver jointer at $1571. The cutterhead for the modern 12" Oliver and other generic ones is priced at less than $700. If the diameter is the same, I wonder if the latter can be adapted to the former since I am getting rid of the motor and the shaft assembly and fitting a pulley to the cutterhead to be driven by a motor.

Another question is speed. 3500-4500 rpm is what I see around; is that correct?
Sal.

[Jeff Duncan]

The short answer I believe is no. Being that your talking about an older jointer with a clamshell and direct drive I'm going to assume you have a babbitt bearing machine. The modern Oliver is going to be a ball bearing shaft and so the 2 will not be interchangeable. Could be part of the reason the head for yours is so much more expensive is that there's a lot more steel to machine accurately.

Even if your machine were ball bearing it still is very, very, unlikely that the newly designed and Asian built Oliver will be the same dimension as the older head:rolleyes: I would at least have a conversation with your schools machinist and see what he thinks of the idea. FWIW there is/was a 20" cutterhead out of a Powermatic for sale over at OWWM, (no affiliation with the seller), Not sure if it would be the right 'fit' for a donor or not, but something to look at;)

As far as speed that's outside my expertise, but I think if you stick with the same rpm's the motor is at you'll be safe;)

good luck,
JeffD

[jack forsberg]

If indeed its Babbitt it may not take the thrust load that the helical heads adds. Yes 3500 to 4500 rpm for a head that size is correct. the motor speed is 3450 rpm and belted machine run a little faster.

[peter gagliardi]

I'm currently retrofitting an Oliver 12B 24" jointer, with the clam head to a 3 knife gibbed head. It was belted drive with Babbitt journals. I am converting to direct drive, but keeping the babbitt,as they run smoother, and I don't need ultimate speed. These are very hard to come by it seems? Only seen a couple out there. They are the true "patternmaker's" jointer with a side tilting infeed table to plane draft into pattern mold parts for easy release. I look forward to seeing how yours comes out.
Peter

[jack forsberg]

peter My 26" wadkin paternmakers is ball bearing with two sets of double rowed self aliening bronzes machines cages on the inside with a massive 2308 on the out side . all are ABEC 5 class bearings and cost me $$$$$$$$$$$$$ to replace. run very smooth at 5000 RPM. mind you my head is only 2 knife but 6" around. The Babbitt does run very smooth but the higher speeds can be a killer on them.They sure don't cost as mush to replace as bearings when there of a abec class,

hope the conversion goes well.

[Jim Andrew]

If you have a machinist and shop available, could you not just machine new bearing holders and use a standard cutterhead of the proper size?

[Sal Kurban]

I took the motor and the cover out today and the jointer does not have babbitt bearings. It has regular greased ball bearings. That makes things easier I suppose.
Sal.

[Sal Kurban]

I have another question: I measured the diameter of the cutterhead, and it is approximately 4 3/4". Can I fit a cutter head between 4 1/2" and 5"? Given the range of adjustment for the cutting depth, I see some flexibility there... Second, since I have the ball bearings, and they seem fine (I hope to be able to use them), how do I remove the original cutter head without damaging the bed or the bearings?
Thanks,
Sal. 270703270704270705