automotive wiring splice and solder..???

[Dennis Peacock]

OK...maybe not truly automotive, but motorcycle. My youngest son has a Honda VT1100C2 v-twin cruiser, 2003 model. The wires from the stater that pass under the seat to a connector and then down to the rectifier (or whatever you call it) have burned in two. The first time I fixed it (it had already been repaired before) I cut out the burned connectors/wire and crimped on new connectors and connected the wires together again.

This lasted for a few months and then just this week it happened again. I checked around the "net" and some say that this is not a strange happening with these bikes and is a common break/fix. The wire coming from the stater is like an 18 gauge wire and is the same gauge wire going to the (well....I need to go lookup what it's called....BRB...).....ok it is called a regulator/rectifier.

In my past electrician days, if a wire heated up....it was because the wire was too small for the load it was carrying. Here, the wires only burned where the connectors were.

I was trying to solder the wires today by tinning then first and I simply could NOT get solder to stick to the wires. I cut the wire back a short bit and stripped back a little and still the solder would not stick to the wires. Does this require the wires to be clean as in like new condition before the solder will stick well?

How does one typically spliced 2 wires back together in an automotive type setting? I'd like to fix this on a more permanent type repair.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Educate me....I'm not proud nor bashful.....so I'm asking. ;)

[Todd Burch]

Maybe the wires are aluminum? I've never had an issue soldering older model vehicle wires.

Todd

[Stephen Cherry]

One thing I have noticed from soldering on my boat is that the lead free home depot type solder will not work. I got some normal solder with lead from radio shack, and it worked like the old days.

You can also get some pretty good waterproof crimp connectors from the boat store, but the problem will be the crimp tool. A good crimp tool is very expensive, but the one they have at HD for about 30 dollars is OK (I think that it's klien). The pressed metal tools are a joke, in my opinion.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100630657?productId=100630657&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=100630657&ci_src=17588969&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-100630657&ci_gpa=pla#.Uhl9glePjgc

Of course, none of this deals with the underlying issue, the wire should not be melting down.

[Dennis Peacock]

Todd,
The wires are in fact stranded copper wires. When cut, you see nice shinny copper staring you in the face. Maybe I'll have to get some different solder. Is there like and acid core solder and one that is not acid core? I don't know....just guessing here.

[Biff Johnson]

Try going to a good auto electric supply shop or marine shop. They will have butt connectors with solder inside that heat shrink over the wire, all in one pass. Just make sure you understand how to use them because it can be easy to apply to much heat. Test on scrap wire first. It will make an awesome watertight connection.

It sounds like you may have another problem though. Perhaps too much resistance in the circuit and it's overheating at the weak point which is that connection. Maybe check all your ground connections on the frame and at the rectifier. It's not enought to look at them, take them off and brighten them scotchbrite or emery, make sure it's down to bare metal.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dennis.....acid core solder is used for plumbing.......rosin core is used for electrical. Because of the "acid" in acid core solder, it is not recommended for electronics as it can damage circuit boards, etc.

Check out this link: http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/3/what-are-the-different-types-of-solder-used-for

[Dan Hintz]

I would suggest replacing with a 16AWG wire from point to point rather than continually patching this one up. If you must patch it, however, you need to make sure the wires are properly cleaned. While Ken's comments about rosin versus acid core solder is correct, this is not sitting on a PCB where the acid can attack, so you'll have no real issue (wash the connection with some baking soda solution and be done with it). If solder isn't sticking, it's two possible things: lack of clean wires (flux helps here), or not enough heat (what wattage is your soldering iron?).

[Todd Burch]

Yep, put a bigger wire on it and initiate the smoke test.... :eek:

Seems like not having enough heat to the wires and too much on the solder might be the issue. Let us know how this turns out.

Todd

[Brian Elfert]

PErsonally, I would use heat shrink butt connectors and skip the solder. You can get heat shrink butt connectors at NAPA. You do need a crimper to crimp the connectors.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Dennis - in addition to Ken's info (I call it flux core), I would be concerned as to why the wires are burning up in the first place. How close to the exhaust are the wires? I am wondering if it might not be a better fix to use a larger gauge wire and reroute them away from any heat source.

[Jack Schmidt]

Not that unusual for the connectors to be the weak point. You can't really change the wire size as this is the same wire going all the way to the stators.

The majority of motorcycle charging systems have the regulator work in a shunt methodology, meaning that full current is always output and bled off to charge the battery. All you need is an imperfect contact in one of the connectors and it will start to arc and heat up. Many DIY motorcyclists eliminate the connectors as you have researched. If one uses connectors they must be of the best quality and the wire contact to them must also be very good.

Aged wire even though covered with insulator will still develop an oxidized surface that makes it harder for rosin core solder to flow. Some have used acid core solder when wires are not near CBs or other areas where residual acid will not corrode surfaces. Acid core solder near a connector for example is not a good idea. Rosin core solder really is the best choice no matter what.

There are products that can remove the oxidation on the wires, the best under the trade name De-Ox-It. A little mechanical abrasion with Scotch-brite or very fine sandpaper can also work. Some have used toilet bowl clearer, an acid, then washed the heck out of the bare wire with alcohol before soldering, but you never know if you got it all out as it will wick up the lay.

It has been shown by testing that a tight, proper crimp actually is a better electrical connection then technically loose wires held together by a alloy (solder) where the electrons have to cross dissimilar metals, but this can get into a discussion equal to that of what the best motor oil. A pretty good guide for critical aircraft wiring is this if you care to review:

http://www.keybridgeti.com/videotraining/manualdl/25827.PDF

When I do my electrical soldering I use Eutectic solder, usually quad but tri is available, This is the best and while rosin core there are times I also use additional rosin flux on the copper just to add insurance. Radio Shack used to carry these and may still.

[Art Mann]

I would try a paste flux and a hotter iron. Be sure the iron itself is well tinned as this facilitates good heat transfer.

[Chuck Wintle]

OK...maybe not truly automotive, but motorcycle. My youngest son has a Honda VT1100C2 v-twin cruiser, 2003 model. The wires from the stater that pass under the seat to a connector and then down to the rectifier (or whatever you call it) have burned in two. The first time I fixed it (it had already been repaired before) I cut out the burned connectors/wire and crimped on new connectors and connected the wires together again.

This lasted for a few months and then just this week it happened again. I checked around the "net" and some say that this is not a strange happening with these bikes and is a common break/fix. The wire coming from the stater is like an 18 gauge wire and is the same gauge wire going to the (well....I need to go lookup what it's called....BRB...).....ok it is called a regulator/rectifier.

In my past electrician days, if a wire heated up....it was because the wire was too small for the load it was carrying. Here, the wires only burned where the connectors were.

I was trying to solder the wires today by tinning then first and I simply could NOT get solder to stick to the wires. I cut the wire back a short bit and stripped back a little and still the solder would not stick to the wires. Does this require the wires to be clean as in like new condition before the solder will stick well?

How does one typically spliced 2 wires back together in an automotive type setting? I'd like to fix this on a more permanent type repair.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Educate me....I'm not proud nor bashful.....so I'm asking. ;)

someone suggested to use a brush on flux, rosin based only (do not use plumbing flux) and heat the wire and connector and apply solder. all the connections needs to be high quality with the lowest possible resistance. AS you probably know P= I^2R or the heat being produced at the connector wire junction. Too much of it and the connector and wire burn up. If these are crimp type connectors, first crimp them and then add some solder to the crimp and wire to reduce the inline resistance.

[David G Baker]

High temp wire is also available but don't know where to buy it.

[Chuck Wintle]

High temp wire is also available but don't know where to buy it.

wire with a teflon based insulation will take high temperatures...do a search on the net for it.

[Brian Elfert]

Isn't high temp wire mostly about the insulation? Is the wire itself really any different? Dennis' problem seems to be the wire itself breaking.

[Chuck Wintle]

Polytetrafluoroethylene or PTFE Insulated Wire

High dielectric strength and volume resistivity unaffected by thermal aging.
Very low dissipation factor unaffected by exposure to humidity.
Extremely low dielectric constant unaffected by temperature, frequency and humidity.
Extremely high operating temperature

[Jim Koepke]

My vote goes to changing the wire. If it heats up enough to melt copper, it will melt solder.

Your wire may have become what is sometimes called passivated. This takes place on the molecular level and can raise the wire's resistance. Resistance creates heat. It will also keep solder from adhering.

New wire of a heavier gauge will be cheaper and less headache than trying to fix something that wants to stay broken.

The next question is something drawing more current now than it did originally or is it just a wire failing?

jtk

[Stephen Cherry]

Also, don't ask me how I know, but electrical fires are no fun while riding a motorcycle.

[Dennis Peacock]

Here are some pics to give you a better idea of what I've cut out and quick crimped together to just get it going for now. I'm researching how to fix this more permanent like.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/sawdustar/general/ACD3955C-C9C0-41D1-900F-738306F281F4-251-000000152912D385_zps33f482ca.jpg (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/sawdustar/media/general/ACD3955C-C9C0-41D1-900F-738306F281F4-251-000000152912D385_zps33f482ca.jpg.html)

And one more from a little further back....BTW....all this is under the drivers seat.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/sawdustar/general/ECD297E9-E505-404C-A534-FC269A791842-251-00000014F7142CE1_zpsa0841abc.jpg (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/sawdustar/media/general/ECD297E9-E505-404C-A534-FC269A791842-251-00000014F7142CE1_zpsa0841abc.jpg.html)

[Jim Koepke]

Just a reminder based on British vehicle electrical systems:


Electrical Theory by Joseph Lucas:
"Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working."

jtk

[ray hampton]

do these wires move around and maybe wear thru. the insulation then short OUT

[Chuck Wintle]

Just a reminder based on British vehicle electrical systems:



jtk
a friend of mine once told me that BSA motorcycles had 3 positions for the light switch...flicker, smoke and melt.

[ray hampton]

how close was the fire to the gasoline tank ?

[Art Mann]

Based on the photos, I retract my previous comments. The wiring harness needs replacing. Anything less risks being stranded somewhere ... or worse.

[Mike Cutler]

You're getting a cold joint Dennis.

Strip wires and clean with Isopropyl alcohol.
Pretin wires if possible.
Mechanically affix wires together.
Attach hemostats on both sides of joint to act as heat sink.
Apply flux.
Tin soldering iron with 60/40 rosin core solder.
Hold iron to wires.
Apply 60/40 solder to iron tip until solder begins to flow and forms a "bridge" with the iron and wires, then move it to the wires. 60/40 will start to flow at about 375 degrees. It doesn't take as much heat as people think, and excess heat can cause a joint to scale. Typically you're looking for just enough heat to form the bridge and be in and out in 3-5 secs.
Let joint cool.

I tend to agree with Art though, but I've seen and repaired worse. Those pic's show a joint that has been repaired previously, a few times incorrectly, and now the wires have probably got oxidants and contaminants in the strands that has migrated under the insulation. You need to cut back beyond all discolored wire/insulation and graft in an entirely new section.
If you were closer we could redo those butt splices. They need to be a "gas free" splice, and those are not. They look line inline automotive splices from a kit.
See if you can locate some RayChem splices, AMP PIDG butt splices, or Solistrand crimps and heat shrink to redo those inline butt splices.

[Dennis Peacock]

how close was the fire to the gasoline tank ?

6" away....just to the left in the pics.

[Dennis Peacock]

You're getting a cold joint Dennis.

Strip wires and clean with Isopropyl alcohol.
Pretin wires if possible.
Mechanically affix wires together.
Attach hemostats on both sides of joint to act as heat sink.
Apply flux.
Tin soldering iron with 60/40 rosin core solder.
Hold iron to wires.
Apply 60/40 solder to iron tip until solder begins to flow and forms a "bridge" with the iron and wires, then move it to the wires. 60/40 will start to flow at about 375 degrees. It doesn't take as much heat as people think, and excess heat can cause a joint to scale. Typically you're looking for just enough heat to form the bridge and be in and out in 3-5 secs.
Let joint cool.

I tend to agree with Art though, but I've seen and repaired worse. Those pic's show a joint that has been repaired previously, a few times incorrectly, and now the wires have probably got oxidants and contaminants in the strands that has migrated under the insulation. You need to cut back beyond all discolored wire/insulation and graft in an entirely new section.
If you were closer we could redo those butt splices. They need to be a "gas free" splice, and those are not. They look line inline automotive splices from a kit.
See if you can locate some RayChem splices, AMP PIDG butt splices, or Solistrand crimps and heat shrink to redo those inline butt splices.

Mike,
Your info and guidance is exactly what I've been looking / hoping for. I know almost ZERO about this type of stuff, but I do know enough to know that my last fix at this spot was a "get me by for now" fix. I can see oxidation and stuff under the stripped back wire insulation. I just need to figure out how to splice in and buy a soldering gun or something that has enough heat to solder what I need done.

Thank you for your detailed info Mike.!!! Much appreciated.

[ray hampton]

Mike,
Your info and guidance is exactly what I've been looking / hoping for. I know almost ZERO about this type of stuff, but I do know enough to know that my last fix at this spot was a "get me by for now" fix. I can see oxidation and stuff under the stripped back wire insulation. I just need to figure out how to splice in and buy a soldering gun or something that has enough heat to solder what I need done.

Thank you for your detailed info Mike.!!! Much appreciated.

I always use a pocket knife to scrap the wires until the copper was bright before I solder the wires or use a wire nut to hold them together