big glue ups with type III

[jack forsberg]

sometimes you need tunes to get thing to go together better.

this a big door 48x 86 i made 8 of for the mill shop.

<br>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjqgBoiSSG0



http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/doors30002_zpsd5a99959.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/doors30002_zpsd5a99959.jpg.html)

[Gordon Eyre]

Wow Jack, that is some kind of glue up. It was fun watching you work. The doors look great.

[Mel Fulks]

Enjoyed watching it ,had to turn down tunes . Like the doors and that period color. I know these doors are for you ,but I thought of something I haven't seen mentioned here before...I insist on leaving lugs of about an inch on bottom of slab
doors as on commercial jobs I've seen a couple of floor line changes requiring unnecessarily difficult lengthening when there were no lugs. And if I may ,Type 3 titebond glue and type 2 titebond can be thinned with water ,but Im not sure they CONTAIN water. As I wrote the other day mfg acknowledges adding it can cause problems.
Im told that polyurethane glue contains no LIQUIDS. I don't understand that ,but I'm sure some here do.

[Tony Rodoracio]

OK, How did you get the raised panels in the doors after the glue up?? They look awesome. Thanks for the video!

[Peter Quinn]

Beautiful doors Jack, gets my heart pumping just watching a good glue up. I've actually set a timer on some large glue ups before just to see how close to the total 20-25 minute open assembly time I was coming. Proved distracting, never had the nerve to actually tape it, plus my glue ups aren't usually G rated by the end! Roll that beautiful glue footage.......I am curious to know more about the glass muntin details. Do you slip those in later, no mortises? I'm usually required to have all the bars in stub mortises of at least 3/8-1/2", I'm assuming thats not possible with these doors? I never thought it was of much importance other than as a locator, the glass seems to provide a good deal of the strength anyway. Love to learn more about your method for those. Great work there, I love the wall of doors too. Thanks much for sharing your work.

Mell, if its PVA, its water based. It contains water, and water is critical to the reaction. There is a lot of water in there, like 30% IIR? Never let it freeze, breaks the emulsion, becomes useless. Water is both a kind of catalyst and a retarder, and its the solvent too. When it fails its almost always because the "free water" was absorbed too quickly for the reaction to gain strength, the classical starved joint. Funny, if you size butt joints they get pretty strong too. There was a detailed FWW article about 8 years back that covered the chemistry in some detail. One part PU needs water for the reaction, but does't contain it at all. Part of the reason its very strong for end grain to end grain work, i't does't suffer from starvation, but does push deep into the end grain seeking moisture. Type II and III are kind of like precat lacquers to the extent they have a cross linking agent in them that develops more strength as they cure, versus two part adhesives, which are almost always stronger, but obviously trickier to mix, store, and have a pot life. I know a guy that uses Ashland Isoset a lot, its a two part water based adhesive, has a hardener similar to 2K urethanes, sort of nasty stuff in the hardener. I think it buys a much longer open time....this guy is primarily a curved sash maker, big complex frames, but you get the water clean up. Only down side is its a 6 month shelf life and starts in 5 gallon buckets!

[jack forsberg]

OK, How did you get the raised panels in the doors after the glue up?? They look awesome. Thanks for the video!

the moulding in a full bead and so can't be coped. this is what i do so i can glue and nail the bead and not lock the panel

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/door_zps3abe440e.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/door_zps3abe440e.jpg.html)
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/001-2_zpsce8ed31d.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/001-2_zpsce8ed31d.jpg.html)
a movie with bad sound sorry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMUlIk1u6A&amp;feature=player_detailpage

[mreza Salav]

Eventhough I had seen these videos I watched them again. Nice work Jack. It's good to have a helper in the shop especially during glue ups!!
I don't have that luxury. At least my wife knows not to call me when I'm in the middle of a glue up :)

[Alan Bienlein]

Eventhough I had seen these videos I watched them again. Nice work Jack. It's good to have a helper in the shop especially during glue ups!!
I don't have that luxury. At least my wife knows not to call me when I'm in the middle of a glue up :)

See that's where you went wrong. You need to train your wife to help you on those larger glue ups. Thats what I did with mine!

[jack forsberg]

I am curious to know more about the glass muntin details. Do you slip those in later, no mortises? I'm usually required to have all the bars in stub mortises of at least 3/8-1/2", I'm assuming thats not possible with these doors? I never thought it was of much importance other than as a locator, the glass seems to provide a good deal of the strength anyway. Love to learn more about your method for those. Great work there, I love the wall of doors too. Thanks much for sharing your work.



peter i did make a few videos of the how i deal with true divide lites


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDmg4TLSW7I

see next post for part two

[jack forsberg]

part 2 window bars



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7qkVTET4-k

[Mel Fulks]

I like that groove and spline system when using applied moulding .Works well and guarantees no light gets through. Peter thanks for glue info and test posts . One I understood ,will look for Cliff's notes on the other...

[Peter Quinn]

I like that spline system Jack, fantastic way to do bars, really delicate. Our narrowest cope and stick set does 15/16", and even those look a little chunky on sash with a lot of lites. Thanks again for sharing that, great videos of your fine work.

[glenn bradley]

Thanks for all that Jack. I always enjoy watching others methods and madness. Always a treat to watch someone work who has a system down to a science. Lots of cool things going on with your machines and setups too.

[Jeff Duncan]

Great to see how others work in their shops! I was wondering how many glue-ups you had done to get to that level of 'flow'....then I saw the stack of doors at the end;) I want to see the video of the first door glue-up....I'm sure that's the one with the most cursing though:D I know in my shop the first one is always the craziest and then they get smoother as you go!

I've used the same applied bead on interior doors in the past and I find it works really well. I'm wondering if you have to worry about moisture issues in the horizontal rails at all? I haven't built any exterior doors, but was under the impression the horizontals had to be gently sloped to shed water that might try to collect behind the molding?

nice job!
JeffD

[Phil Thien]

This thread has answered so many "how would I do..." questions I've had about making my own doors/windows.

Thanks!!!

[jack forsberg]

I've used the same applied bead on interior doors in the past and I find it works really well. I'm wondering if you have to worry about moisture issues in the horizontal rails at all? I haven't built any exterior doors, but was under the impression the horizontals had to be gently sloped to shed water that might try to collect behind the molding?

nice job!
JeffD


Jeff
you that same guy that rebuilt the Martin and has a 12" AGS?

There are a few way I deal with that problem of water egress if you want to call it a problem. First I always use 2 panels back to back. This lets me get a better grade on my panels(only one face) and use 4/4 stock which in general is cheaper. For these panels I used cedar fence boards that I culled at home depot picking quarter saw stock. Now there as green as a first year apprentice so dyed them before use is necessary, in fact all these doors are made from green decking material that I did the same culling of the piles.
Whats great about HD is they let you pull grade from the pile, something a real lumber yard would never let you do. I had time to do this as the mill shop is what we work on when we have time,so ever time I am there I pull clear. I got the cedar for about $950 a thousand(that's $0.95 a board foot in laymen terms)

So like said I use 2 panels and the exterior are 1/4 grain. I find up here in Canada the temperature extremes can be 60C degrees from inside to outside. Many of solid wood panels crack up here because of this differential in temperature and moister content. The two panels are separated by a vapor film like tin foil so that they can move independent of the interior panels.

On the exterior side I mastic the panels in for air tightness and water egress on the bottom edge only. This has worked great and I have proof it works as the shops doors are done this way on the bench shop and were installed in 1997. Full sun dark color too on a southern exposure and what i have to told to be impossible in solid.:rolleyes:

All I have of the mastic seal to show is the window work but its the same I do for doors exterior panels.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/doors13001_zpscbdd4711.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/doors13001_zpscbdd4711.jpg.html)

here is the old door on the bench shop southern exposure dark color after 12 years with this detail. needs a paint job.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shop005_zps99d3a26e.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shop005_zps99d3a26e.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shop006_zps24b7c4a0.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shop006_zps24b7c4a0.jpg.html)

Now never being satisfied with a solution for wood exteriors I put massive 6 foot overhangs on the mill shop to keep the weather and sun off the doors in the summer but allow solar gain in the winter.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shop004_zps0d5f6c13.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shop004_zps0d5f6c13.jpg.html)


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shop001_zps8eaddd1f.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shop001_zps8eaddd1f.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shop002_zpsbc0c8800.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shop002_zpsbc0c8800.jpg.html)

here is how I do the windows for water egress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cscyjAqOoY

[Jeff Duncan]

Yup, that's me.....both still going strong too:)

I've been toying with the idea of replacing my shop door for the last few years now as it's really in pretty bad shape. I've done more than a couple interior doors over the years but haven't made the jump to exterior, so am always curious as to methods other guys are using. Unfortunately mine is not going to be protected much, it's got about 18" of overhang so it's pretty close to full exposure:( Won't be nearly as fancy as yours though, no glass and really just need it to keep the weather out. Since I don't own the building I need to keep it on the cheap;) Of course if I ever have some extra time I might even think about replacing a couple windows, probably won't be anytime soon though.

thanks for the videos!
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Jeff, I once worked in an ancient factory that made all kinds of millwork. The door the customers had to walk through to buy a door had sagged and dragged on the floor. But that was before PR and marketing geniuses.

[Mel Fulks]

I like back to back panels ,too. Additional benefit is when panels go in sticking and groove, fit is more uniform and less
troublesome by referencing exact center .Beautiful building,How often do the trains stop?

[jack forsberg]

[QUOTE=Jeff Duncan;2147092]Yup, that's me.....both still going strong too:)

JeffD[/QUOTE

thought that was you toolguy0300? or something i think. small world!

[jack forsberg]

I like back to back panels ,too. Additional benefit is when panels go in sticking and groove, fit is more uniform and less
troublesome by referencing exact center .Beautiful building,How often do the trains stop?

that.s Wadkinville Mel. first stop nirvana station.:p

I do run the backs on the table Mel. I known the big shops run top and bottom panel raisers on the spindle moulder for a good fit. not something you would do hand feeding on though. gives a nice fit to the grove. Jeff could do on the Martin and maybe he does? I am still looking for a Wadkin EQ to help me out.

[Mel Fulks]

I've seen a bunch of guys get panels not back to back then try flipping them because "they are all same thickness". On the few occasions where I've had to use panels glued full thickness I ran first side cutting bottom ,then flipped the head ,reversed rotation and ran other side maintaining same face on shaper. Sure others here have done that ,too. I will not
test fit and perform corrective surgery on every panel...until they are covered by Obamacare !

[Jeff Duncan]

Mel, I actually have a large piece of 1/2" ply screwed to the inside of the door to keep it from sagging! Mostly since I literally had to kick the door in a couple winters ago when it was covered close to 1" thick solid ice:eek: Gotta love New England:D

Jack, I think that's my handle over at the old stuff site! Or close enough anyway, (I have my computer set up to auto login so that I don't have to remember all the names and passwords etc.). As far as the panels I also do them back to back, with the back to the table. Not in that big a hurry that I need/want to run doubles. I run an Innovator head that makes short work out of shaping panels. I did have to pick up another big boy shaper though as I haven't gotten around to buying a VFD for the Martin. As of now it runs 1 speed which is good for 80% of the work I do, just not slow enough for panel raising. I like the foam idea you used in your doors. The only ones I've done with back to back were 2-1/4" doors so I used foam insulating panel between them. Not so much for the insulation since they were interiors, but just to deaden any hollow sound in them;)
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2123.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_2123.jpg.html)

JeffD