Top Load HE Washing Machine - Agitator vs No Agitator

[Charles Brown]

I absolutely hate my front loading HE washing machine. Hate, hate, hate, hate. GE was so proud of the product they produced that they discontinued the model (and service) less than a year after releasing it. It was the first washing machine the wife and I purchased back in 2008. Time to move on. We are looking at a top loading washing machine to work around a few issues with the front loading machines. I went to the store to look and saw that some machines do not use agitators any more. Who knew?!

My question, do top loading HE washing machines that do not come with an agitator clean clothes as well as the models that use an agitator?

Second question, does anyone have any recommendations for models I should look at? I do not need an extra large basin, a steam clean option, fancy buttons, or extra features. I want a good, reliable, and long lasting machine. This machine will be used inside our house.

I'm so sick of the mold smell that goes with with my front loading machine (well documented on the internets). No amount of cleaners, air drying, bleach, rain dances, or home remedies seem to alleviate the problem. Time to get a new beast.

thank you for your opinion.
Charlie

[John Lohmann]

Bought a Samsung WA5471 top loader, their top of the line. It broke under the extended warranty, so did the matching dryer. My wife hates them & the durabilty so far is not good, both had electronics problems.

[Ryan Baker]

Find something with the smallest possible amount of electronics on it. Motherboard replacements on modern machines often can run more than the machine is worth ... and they wil fail. The pre-2000 machines that were almost entirely mechanical run circles around the front loaders.

I have heard stories that the agitators don't really result in better cleaning, but I'm not sure I believe that. YMMV.

If you get things narrowed down to a few models, you might want to try looking them up somewhere like repair clinic to get an idea of what repair costs will be like. It sucks to find out later that you have the one special model that doesn't use the standard part but instead requires a part four or five times more expensive. Review periodicals don't help much. They pretty much show lousy reliability for every brand these days. Everything is made by only about two parent manufacturers anyway. The Whirlpool family of brands have generally been as good as anything (IME) and are pretty reasonable to service.

[Phil Thien]

Look on Craigslist for used (older) Maytag top-loading models.

[David Weaver]

I absolutely hate my front loading HE washing machine. Hate, hate, hate, hate. GE was so proud of the product they produced that they discontinued the model (and service) less than a year after releasing it. It was the first washing machine the wife and I purchased back in 2008. Time to move on. We are looking at a top loading washing machine to work around a few issues with the front loading machines. I went to the store to look and saw that some machines do not use agitators any more. Who knew?!

My question, do top loading HE washing machines that do not come with an agitator clean clothes as well as the models that use an agitator?

Second question, does anyone have any recommendations for models I should look at? I do not need an extra large basin, a steam clean option, fancy buttons, or extra features. I want a good, reliable, and long lasting machine. This machine will be used inside our house.

I'm so sick of the mold smell that goes with with my front loading machine (well documented on the internets). No amount of cleaners, air drying, bleach, rain dances, or home remedies seem to alleviate the problem. Time to get a new beast.

thank you for your opinion.
Charlie

Fisher paykel ecosmart, the base model (about 600 bucks). Nothing overcomplicated about it, but it gets clothes clean, it's stingy with water and energy and it's reliable.

It's sort of halfway between as far as the agitator goes. There's one in it, but it just ticks in one direction, it doesn't do the back and forth like the old hard core agitators did.

[Myk Rian]

We just bought a Maytag Bravos XL. Wife loves it. More a commercial build than cheaper washers. Nice and quiet also.

You have to stack the clothes up the side of the tub, instead of just tossing them in.

[John Lanciani]

Fisher paykel ecosmart, the base model (about 600 bucks). Nothing overcomplicated about it, but it gets clothes clean, it's stingy with water and energy and it's reliable.

It's sort of halfway between as far as the agitator goes. There's one in it, but it just ticks in one direction, it doesn't do the back and forth like the old hard core agitators did.

+1 on Fisher & Paykel. We've had one for 12 years and it is still running strong with no issues to date. Clothes come out clean and water use is very low.

[Matt Meiser]

Multiple sources told me that current top loaders do not wash clothes as well because of the reduced water usage requirements. One told me they seem fine until you go to wash a load of really dirty clothes. Obviously that's probably a generalization of mid and low end machines.

We had one the renowned "real" Maytag machines and had planned to keep it going. We had the one failure everyone says not to bother repairing--transmission which is not serviceable and has to be replaced as a unit. I did sell the matching dryer on Craigslist pretty quick for $150.

[David Weaver]

I don't know if the water use is quite that stingy on the FP, but it defaults to using colder water whenever possible (i.e., if you do a warm wash, it might default to a cold rinse to save energy).

Newer machines than mine (~8 years old) might be more stingy on water in general, but I would say that if clothes are super soiled, the fact that they don't really agitate clothes hard like the old washers did might make a difference. The flip side of that is that my machine hasn't ruined any of my clothes, whereas our old whirlpool would get a hold of something from time to time and rip it up.

The FPs don't have a lot of digital gadgets on them until you get to the high end models (I avoid that kind of stuff, CR and other places that collect data are clear that the most reliable appliances are usually the base models), but the low end models have cycles that will let clothes soak for a preset amount of time to get a better result if they're very soiled. Never tried it, though. If I have something that's really dirty, I usually put it in a bucket overnight - that kind of stuff never has seemed to come out in one wash for me on any washer, but on *all* of them, if you keep the clothes and wear them and wash them whatever's in them seems to eventually come out. I've even got some Tshirts that got oil based stain on them so I relegated them to shop duty only, but the stain eventually came out completely after a dozen or so washes.

[Charles Wiggins]

Up until a couple of weeks ago we had this machine: Yes, that's my ad.

I thought it did pretty well, but LOML thought it was too rough on the towels. I thought it was because we buy cheap towels. We've had it for 10 years, but we bought it as a refurb from the Search scratch and dent area. I was pretty happy with it overall, but I would describe the cleaning as competent, not spectacular. There was more than one occasion where I had to put clothes back in to rinse again because of visible residue, even though it had a second rinse option with I used religiously. In ten years the only major repair was replacing the pump, until now.

Ryan is right. Not too long ago we started having a persistent error and one of the possible fixes seems to be replacing one of the two circuit boards, but the diagnosis was not definitive and we couldn't troubleshoot it without spending at least a couple of hundred $$. For the money, I think it will be a while before I give another HE top-loader a try.

Why limit yourself to a top-loader? We just got a new Maytag front-loader (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004F8SM44/) delivered Monday. It was one of Consumer Reports top picks last year. The "new and improved" model is out so we got ours at about half of MSRP, which made it was less than what we paid for the refurbed Kenmore top-loader 10 years ago and it has a lot more features. I've only done a few loads so far, but it seems to do great.

It has a "sanitize" setting where it will super-heat the water on certain cycles. The first load I did were my son's towels, which were about ready to walk out on their own. He's normally responsible for his own laundry, which he does about four times a year. His towels are always musty smelling, even right after laundering. I tried the sanitize setting and I use free and clear detergent and softener. When they came out of the dryer they didn't smell like anything at all. No odor whatsoever. The big downside is that most of the cycles are over an hour. If you do a power-wash with an extra rinse it's almost three hours.

[Charles Brown]

I appreciate all of the replies. Please keep them coming. I understand the problem with the circuitry failing and the electrical problems but that just seems to be the world we live in. I don't think I have the time (or patience) to wait out a craigslist find. I'm too fed up with the current GE model I own.

Charles, to address the why only top-loader question is because I had such a bad experience with my front loader. We bought a GE model in 2008 and the rubber gasket that seals the door never drains water properly. When I called GE about it, their suggestion was to leave the door open so it can evaporate. Long story short, the rubber smells like mold no matter how well you clean it. If we don't clean the rubber every so often our clothes pick up the mold smell and make me nauseous. I figured the best way to avoid this problem is to avoid the rubber gasket in the front; top-loaders solve this problem. I'm also amazed that the enamel is flaking off to expose rusted metal on the front of the unit.

[David Weaver]

When we got the FP a while ago, I was reading a farmer forum, and one of the guys on there was an appliance repairman. I don't know if he'd read it somewhere or if he was guessing, but his comment about a moderate use washer before problems was that you can expect about 5 years now for most washers that are of the same style as the original maytags, which he described as 20-year washers. The flip side of that is the original maytag top loaders use so much hot water that a new HE inexpensive top loader that lasts 10 years may pay for the difference in lifetime.

Knock on wood, wife and I have probably gotten about 1500-2000 through the FP HE top loader with no issues, but we did wear out the front bearing surface on the dryer and I had to replace that (at a cost of about $30 for new plastic bearings and the part that holds them in place, as that had worn through also leaving nothing to hold the new bearing strips).

At any rate, pretty good so far, and the lack of drying time with the 1000 rpm spin (which is probably on everything now) has to be the best part of all of it. In a given week, that probably cuts out two hours of electric dryer time in our house, maybe more.

I do have qualms about when the PCB quits in ours, though, as the part is $385 or something in a washer that costs $600. It doesn't make a lot of sense to change it, but that's just the way things are now. 8 years ago, none of the machines I looked at had functional knobs. A lot of them had decorative knobs, but the appliance dealer showed us that they were just basically there for show for the folks who felt like a knob was better than a button. All they did is actuate a button, they weren't mechanically affixed to anything. The benefits of the PCB are nice, though, like auto load size, quick switching through cycles, various timing options, etc.

[Charles Wiggins]

Charles, to address the why only top-loader question is because I had such a bad experience with my front loader. We bought a GE model in 2008 and the rubber gasket that seals the door never drains water properly. When I called GE about it, their suggestion was to leave the door open so it can evaporate. Long story short, the rubber smells like mold no matter how well you clean it. If we don't clean the rubber every so often our clothes pick up the mold smell and make me nauseous. I figured the best way to avoid this problem is to avoid the rubber gasket in the front; top-loaders solve this problem. I'm also amazed that the enamel is flaking off to expose rusted metal on the front of the unit.

I noticed after I posted that you mentioned that. I'll have to keep an eye out for that. I did note in the manual that it recommended leaving the door open after the last wash of the day to allow the moisture to air out. The model we bought also comes with a self-cleaning cycle and they sent us a sample of this stuff they recommend called Affresh to use during the cleaning cycle. We'll see how it goes.

[Charles Wiggins]

When we got the FP a while ago, I was reading a farmer forum, and one of the guys on there was an appliance repairman. I don't know if he'd read it somewhere or if he was guessing, but his comment about a moderate use washer before problems was that you can expect about 5 years now for most washers that are of the same style as the original maytags, which he described as 20-year washers. The flip side of that is the original maytag top loaders use so much hot water that a new HE inexpensive top loader that lasts 10 years may pay for the difference in lifetime.

The water and energy savings were a big factor in our decision, both before with the Kenmore and recently with the Maytag. We pay twice as much for water down here as we did in Asheville. We borrowed an old fashioned top-loader for two weeks until the Maytag came and I am bracing myself for the water and gas bills. This time of year we usually pay only the minimum for gas. The 2010 energy use estimate on the Maytag was $12/yr with gas water heating and $18/yr with an electric water heater, and of course, being a front loader it uses a lot less water. It also has an extremely high spin cycle so we're hoping to save on dryer operating costs as well.

[David Weaver]

If you didn't have a 1000 rpm spin on the last washer, you'll think that you stole something the first time you run the dryer for 15 minutes and have dry clothes. At least that's what it felt like to me. It's money you don't have to spend on electricity and time the dryer doesn't spend wearing itself out.

I figure that the energy costs (which were labeled as $17 on the FP when we got ours) of an HE washer are probably about $35 savings per year for regular use. Since my wife likes to do a load a day, it might be close to double that. At the same time we bought ours, the old matyag types were shown as either $51 or $54, I can't remember exactly which, but the difference was large. Water for us might be a bigger expense than the gas - I guess it probably is. I understood at the time those would be phased out within a year or two via regulation, so no such thing probably exists now. There were $300 stripped down washers when we got ours, and of course, there were $1800 front load all-everything machines. Those machines that sold for $300 are emptying the pockets of their owners year by year - and helping to wear out the dryers.

[Matt Meiser]

Our new Electrolux washer operating cost is $12 if you have electric hot water, $10 for gas according to the tag. Didn't find the one for the dryer.

[Charles Brown]

When we got the FP a while ago, I was reading a farmer forum, and one of the guys on there was an appliance repairman. I don't know if he'd read it somewhere or if he was guessing, but his comment about a moderate use washer before problems was that you can expect about 5 years now for most washers that are of the same style as the original maytags, which he described as 20-year washers. The flip side of that is the original maytag top loaders use so much hot water that a new HE inexpensive top loader that lasts 10 years may pay for the difference in lifetime.

David, I completely agree. This is why I'm thinking about just getting a $400 - 600 HE washing machine and expect to replace it in another five years. We got five years out of our current one with out any electronics failing. I just can't stand the mold smell. We can go weeks or months without it and then if I haven't ran bleach through it in a while and the wife runs some clothes through, the smell will ruin a whole load of laundry for me. The worst part is I don't realize it until after she has put the clothes up and I have to do the sniff test shirt by shirt.

First world problem, I know. But aggravating nonetheless.

The Maytag Centennial model is on sale in my area for around $450. I may take a flier on that one unless someone has strong opinions against it.

[Brian Elfert]

You shouldn't expect to have to replace a washer or dryer in five years. My Samsung front loader I believe is five years old now and still going strong. I prop the door open after every use and no mold so far. The Samsung replaced a working Maytag Neptune. I got something new because the Samsung is supposed to vibrate less.

[Don Morris]

Seems to me that a bad experience with one manufacturers model, whether it be top or front is not good enough reasoning to exclude all models of that type of machine. All you need to do is look at reviews like Consumer Reports and realize every type has plus and minus'. Right now the front loaders may have some advantage in that they don't beat up your clothes and you can load more, but they generally take more time, probably because of load size. All of them seem to be having the 5 - 8 year electronics fail problem. Go beyond 8 and consider yourself lucky or that electronics board wasn't made on a Monday.

[Charles Brown]

Seems to me that a bad experience with one manufacturers model, whether it be top or front is not good enough reasoning to exclude all models of that type of machine. All you need to do is look at reviews like Consumer Reports and realize every type has plus and minus'. Right now the front loaders may have some advantage in that they don't beat up your clothes and you can load more, but they generally take more time, probably because of load size. All of them seem to be having the 5 - 8 year electronics fail problem. Go beyond 8 and consider yourself lucky or that electronics board wasn't made on a Monday.

Don, while I agree with your statement we had other issues with other GE products (our refrigerator) that soiled my opinion of the brand. I was really hoping someone here would say, "I bought Brand XYZ HE washing machine x years ago and love it; never had a problem with it." Honestly, I would take that recommendation as well as I would any other Consumer Report recommendation.

I am put off of front load washing machines because the unit is in a high traffic area and leaving the door open is, in my opinion, not a suitable solution to combat the mold growth.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

You folks need to stop talking about washing machines and their failures.

My wife is out of town for 2 weeks and sure enough when I began doing laundry Saturday morning, the washing machine began leaking.....:(

Stop it:mad:! These discussions on the internet can go viral!:eek::rolleyes:;):D

[Matt Meiser]

Hopefully water, not oil...

[David Weaver]

Remembered incorrectly. The label on the FP says $11 and $19, depending on the source of the hot water. That being said, I'm sure my we spend 4x that based on how much laundry my wife does.

[David Weaver]

David, I completely agree. This is why I'm thinking about just getting a $400 - 600 HE washing machine and expect to replace it in another five years. We got five years out of our current one with out any electronics failing. I just can't stand the mold smell. We can go weeks or months without it and then if I haven't ran bleach through it in a while and the wife runs some clothes through, the smell will ruin a whole load of laundry for me. The worst part is I don't realize it until after she has put the clothes up and I have to do the sniff test shirt by shirt.

First world problem, I know. But aggravating nonetheless.

The Maytag Centennial model is on sale in my area for around $450. I may take a flier on that one unless someone has strong opinions against it.

Not sure what causes the mold smell. coming up on 8 years of use, we don't have any smell in the FP. My wife is so tidy that I had to argue with her constantly to keep the lid open (I just can't see any detriment to doing that, our basement is semi-finished so nothing is going to go in it). But no smell problems in the washer to speak of. It seems like if there is one, it might be a design issue.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Hopefully water, not oil...

Water.... I have tried to isolate the possible cause by function.....is it in the fill cycle.....the spin dry cycle with no conclusive results.

I am going to buy a downloadable service manual and try to isolate the potential cause.

[Clarence Martin]

Got a Maytag front loader that was made in Germany. Don't know if they still are made in Germany, but this machine is good. Only have 2 complaints about it.

1. That gray rubber seal that covers the round white plastic thingamajig. Have to squeeze the rubber seal to clean out the white plastic part. Mold and crud buildup all around the plastic part once a month.

2. As to smell, throw in a couple of cups of bleach and that cures the smell.

3. Oh, yes, the BLEACH DISPENSER!!! :mad: Picture washing a bunch of white tee-shirts and having to use some bleach in the bleach dispenser . The whites come out of the washer nice and white! But throw in 7 or 8 pair of black sweatpants in the 2nd wash , new ones at that !!! and they ALL CAME OUT OF THE MACHINE LOOKING LIKE SOME ABSTRACT PICASSO PAINTING!! I would have thought that all the bleach would have been emptied from the Bleach dispenser on the 1st wash!

[David Weaver]

So (maybe it was said already), the bleach was a frontloader issue? I didn't ever seriously look at front loaders, because they had reliability issues 8 years ago, and I didn't like their price (and at the time , they weren't more efficient than the FP top loader). They were absolutely the rage back then, though. I watched a "I have better stuff than you" type buddy buy one for $1600 and then turn around and buy another one two years later. Senseless. I'm sure a lot of them were decent, but it was too hard to know which was which back then, and it seemed like there was little difference between a $1500 W/D pair and a pair that was almost $4000 with the stands. So, I punted.

[David C. Roseman]

Last month, Jeff Rossen filmed a report for NBC on the mold and odor problem with front loading HE washers. Ongoing lawsuits over it. The new models are supposedly being designed with better venting to allow things to dry out between uses. May have largely solved the problem. Here's the link:
http://www.today.com/news/your-washing-machine-growing-hidden-mold-6C10671363

FWIW, we bought a Whirlpool top loading HE washer four years ago, avoiding the front loaders because of the anecdotal reports of mold even back then. No mold problem, but it didn't clean the clothes very well either, and a slight soap residue remained even using the HE detergent! Exchanged it two weeks later for a regular Whirlpool Cabrio (not HE), and the clothes get clean.

On repairing the modern machines, coincidently, last week the 4-y/o machine's "start" button stopped working. I pulled the control console and found that a small plastic, "springy" tab under the button had broken off, so that the micro-switch on the control panel beneath it couldn't be activated. Everything else worked fine, and the machine started right up when I plugged it in and clicked the micro-switch directly. Here's the surprise: The only way to replace the plastic strip with the broken tab would be to buy a complete new console, which is only available with the included control board and more, for $230. :rolleyes: Not to be outdone by controlled obsolescence, I just cut out the button, and we now start the machine by just pressing the micro-switch directly. Cost $0. Self-satisfaction priceless. :cool:

David

[Clarence Martin]

Last month, Jeff Rossen filmed a report for NBC on the mold and odor problem with front loading HE washers. Ongoing lawsuits over it. The new models are supposedly being designed with better venting to allow things to dry out between uses. May have largely solved the problem. Here's the link:
http://www.today.com/news/your-washing-machine-growing-hidden-mold-6C10671363

FWIW, we bought a Whirlpool top loading HE washer four years ago, avoiding the front loaders because of the anecdotal reports of mold even back then. No mold problem, but it didn't clean the clothes very well either, and a slight soap residue remained even using the HE detergent! Exchanged it two weeks later for a regular Whirlpool Cabrio (not HE), and the clothes get clean.

On repairing the modern machines, coincidently, last week the 4-y/o machine's "start" button stopped working. I pulled the control console and found that a small plastic, "springy" tab under the button had broken off, so that the micro-switch on the control panel beneath it couldn't be activated. Everything else worked fine, and the machine started right up when I plugged it in and clicked the micro-switch directly. Here's the surprise: The only way to replace the plastic strip with the broken tab would be to buy a complete new console, which is only available with the included control board and more, for $230. :rolleyes: Not to be outdone by controlled obsolescence, I just cut out the button, and we now start the machine by just pressing the micro-switch directly. Cost $0. Self-satisfaction priceless. :cool:

David

Oh yes, the old "Controlled obsolescence" !! They make things so that you either have to spend a ton of money to repair it , that it makes it easier just to buy a whole new machine , or fix it yourself and possibly voiding the warranty.

Remember the days when machines were made to last for YEARS!!!

[David Weaver]

Between the intentionally limited design lifetime and the cost of manufacture (and designing to make the cost of manufacture as low as possible), there's not going to be much that is intentionally created to last a long time and be easy to repair.

That is, perhaps, just slightly less irritating than the intentionally shallow bowled washers they make for coin-op places so that you can't put many clothes in them. When I used to live in an apartment, the washers were good maytag commercial jobs, but the tub was very shallow so that you had to pay to do more loads.

[David C. Roseman]

Don, while I agree with your statement we had other issues with other GE products (our refrigerator) that soiled my opinion of the brand. I was really hoping someone here would say, "I bought Brand XYZ HE washing machine x years ago and love it; never had a problem with it." Honestly, I would take that recommendation as well as I would any other Consumer Report recommendation.[snip]

Know just how you feel, Charles! Unfortunately, I've concluded that so much of what we must base our consumer buying decisions on is anecdotal that it's pretty much luck of the draw with most products. GE makes great jet engines, but I've come to steer clear of their consumer products division when I can, and your experience with your GE fridge fits that experience. Yet I have a 40 y/o GE refrigerator that we bought used 27 years ago for $75 humming away in the basement storage room. It has never missed a beat, not even needed a light bulb! One of the best consumer investments ever.

Even with a good review from Consumer Reports, it can be serendipity. I can think of several "Best Buys" from CR over the years that turned out to be total lemons for me, including a 1971 Opel station wagon when production was still in Germany. :rolleyes: Anymore when I'm researching a product, I tend to study the specs, then read as many online reviews as I can and hope for the best. Not much scientific to crowd sourcing, I suppose, but at least I can feel that I did my due diligence!

David

[Dan Hintz]

I've come to steer clear of {GE's} consumer products division when I can, and your experience with your GE fridge fits that experience

Same here... I've watched a dishwasher (or two), a refrigerator, and several smaller appliances die an early death. I swore there would never be another GE appliance in any home I ever owned.