Felder RLvs ClearVue, Omga vs Festool Mitre saw, Wide belt sander & workshop layout

[Albert Lee]

Hi All

I am new to this site, hoping someone can help me out here.

I live and work in NZ, I have a part time workshop in my garage which I have been making small furniture in the last 4-5 years with hobbist tools. I have recently upgraded from a sub $1000USD generic table saw to a Robland Combination NX410 Pro (wanted to buy a Felder CF741Pro but it cost $27,000 USD for a base model here), and I also upgraded to Festool handheld powertools such as the Domino XL/Sander and a CT36 Vacuum.

Ever since the upgrade of my table saw, I have been wanting to further upgrade of my current tools:

1. Dust collection
2. Chop saw
3. Wide belt sander

1. Dust collection
I have been considering either a ClearVue CVMax or Felder RL200, I like the build quality of the Felder and its certification by German government, I dont like the MDF and heavy plastic material by ClearVue, plus we dont have a Clearvue agent in NZ, there is one in Australia. However, the cost of the Felder RL200 is about 3 times the cost of Clearvue CVMax, is the Felder really worth the extra?

2. Chop saw
I want to upgrade compound mitre saw to something solid and long lasting because a chopsaw is one of the most used tool in my workshop at the moment

I have been looking at the Omga chop saw

At the moment I have a Makita LS1216, I never used the sliding function, I purchased this item before I bought the sliding table saw, sometimes the locking mechanism on the LS1216 may become loose - maybe after too many cuts it will just become loose, also if I wanted to cut something wider, I use my Robland, I find it easier to adjust and safer to cut wider boards on the slding table saw.

I did consider Festool KS120, only because I have a Festool vacuum and I want to utilise it, not because how "beautiful and quality cut", put a quality blade on any mediocre saw and you will get a "beautiful cut"

KS120 is about half price of the Omga T50-350.

By the way the T50-350 has its dedicated dust collection unit sitting below the saw in a dedicated cabinet. pretty cool stuff....

Have I missed anything else on the Omga saw? they should be more reliable and more solidly made than the KS120?

3. Wide belt sander
I need a wide belt sander. but how big do I need to go to? 600mm? 900mm? I never made anything wider than 600mm, but I know its never big enough and you probably want to cry once laugh forever when it comes to woodwork machinery.

here are some quotes I have received for the WBS, all are double belts with platen

620mm Holytek, $15000USD
920mm Holytek, $21000USD
650mm Griggio, $27000USD
950mm Griggio, $33000USD
950mm SCM Sandya 300, $36000USD, there is a local furniture maker want to sell their 10 years old Sandya 300 for $12000USD, 1 owner since new.
950mm Felder, $24000USD (single belt)

The Holytek is made in Taiwan, Griggio and SCM are made in Italy, not sure about the Felder.

Its a small economy here and we have limited access to larger machines.

4. Workshop Layout
my workshop is my garage, its 9m by 6m, about 27' by 18', the ceiling height is 8', should I have the 8" ducting along the wall or in the centre of the garage along the long side? How do you insulate your garage so its sound attenuated (more or less), where we live the council has regulation of 45dBA at the boundary of a residential property, when I use the thicknessor with dust extraction turned on (loudest operation), its about 70dBA at the boundary, I really want to quiet down my operations.

I do have limited budget and if I want to compromise, what should I get/not get? by the way to install 3 phase power to my property will cost another $3000USD, I dont have 3 phase power now.

Any comments welcomed

Thank you for your time.

[David Kumm]

Omga is truly an industrial grade machine but I've no real experience so no help there. The RL is a great machine but at the end of the day, it is all about the filters. There is no cyclone in the RL so the filters handle both coarse and fine dust. Any clone preseparates so then it is a matter of what filters you use. The CV is sort of in between the RL 160 and 200 in CFM so not a true comparison but for the price difference I'd take most any good cyclone with good filters. I would not use cartridges with a widebelt so that means you need more room. The size of the sander will dictate what you need as they require lots of CFM. I run a Torit cyclone for everything but the big widebelt which has a Coral four bagger dedicated to it. DC are loud but can be silenced somewhat. The RL is more quiet than the CV but you can deal with that.

Griggio and Felder Widebelts are made by EMC in Italy. Felder assembles them and adds their own electrics but the differences are minimal. SCMI and EMC are pretty close in quality. Both are high end but not Weber or Kundig. You need to know what you are using it for. Veneer or lacquer sanding are a whole different animal than hardwood sanding. Calibrating heads vs combo heads and what type of platens. You also need lots of amps to run anything over 25". Asian sanders can be good machines, just not quite like the Euro ones but for hardwood sanding the difference is less noticeable. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Albert, the one item in favour of the RL air cleaner is that it actually passes a standard test for particulate collection and emissions, something the other dust collectors don't.

With the RL you get a machine that guarantees a standard of performance, to me that's worth extra money.............Regards, Rod.

[Michael W. Clark]

The Felder unit looks like a version of a unitary dust collector (do a google image search). The filter velocity on the RL200 seemed high for a sander application, probably fine for most other general use. I guess it depends on how often you intend to run the sander. I would ask about the option for the automatic cleaning system, otherwise you are going to have issues with the filters blinding/plugging. I suspect these are cartridge elements, but could be wrong.

I don't have any experience with this particular unit, just experience with industrial filtration equipment. There may be some magic in the box that is not readily apparrent.

Mike

[Albert Lee]

Omga is truly an industrial grade machine but I've no real experience so no help there. The RL is a great machine but at the end of the day, it is all about the filters. There is no cyclone in the RL so the filters handle both coarse and fine dust. Any clone preseparates so then it is a matter of what filters you use. The CV is sort of in between the RL 160 and 200 in CFM so not a true comparison but for the price difference I'd take most any good cyclone with good filters. I would not use cartridges with a widebelt so that means you need more room. The size of the sander will dictate what you need as they require lots of CFM. I run a Torit cyclone for everything but the big widebelt which has a Coral four bagger dedicated to it. DC are loud but can be silenced somewhat. The RL is more quiet than the CV but you can deal with that.

Griggio and Felder Widebelts are made by EMC in Italy. Felder assembles them and adds their own electrics but the differences are minimal. SCMI and EMC are pretty close in quality. Both are high end but not Weber or Kundig. You need to know what you are using it for. Veneer or lacquer sanding are a whole different animal than hardwood sanding. Calibrating heads vs combo heads and what type of platens. You also need lots of amps to run anything over 25". Asian sanders can be good machines, just not quite like the Euro ones but for hardwood sanding the difference is less noticeable. Dave

Thanks Dave, the belt sander I am looking at requires something 3000-4000 m3/hr, I think the dust extraction port on most sanders would be too small in size and quantity. I did consider CVMax with VFD, but the agent in Australia has been difficult to get hold of.

I will be using the WBS to sand panels of hardwood, nothing lacquer or veneer, I need combo heads and preferably two belts so I can have a finished panel in one pass. as for the platen I am still deciding.... the cost of the Asian machine is really having an impact on my decision, I wont be using the WBS as much as the guys in a factory, probably 1 hour a day and 2 hours on a weekend at most as its a part time workshop. I have a 60amp supply for the WBS/extractor, I think Sandya 3 requires 80amp start up. We have no agent for Kundig or Weber but there is Butfering, the Butfering is too expensive in NZ. I did consider buying a machine from a dealer in US and ship the sander to NZ, however the voltage is different in USA, our 3 phase is 400v here, I am not an electrical engineer and not sure if it is going to work at all if I buy from them and ship it to NZ.

[David Kumm]

SCMI makes a two head with one 30 hp motor-80 amps at 230v. Most others are 25 and 20 or 20 and 15hp. 3500 m3?hr is about 2000 cfm if I did the conversion correctly. The CV max will barely do that with ductwork and restrictions. That is in the range of a 7.5 hp motor with a bigger impeller. If you can separate the blower from the cyclone you could buy a separate cyclone and add a stand alone blower. Cincinatti fan, New York, Chicago Blower, etc. They all make units that you could tailor to your needs. When using a WB you need to be able to easily clean the bags or either go with an automatic shaker or a pulse jet cleaner. The filter ratings are only relevant after the air gets through the machine. If the best filters in the world clog up the flow slows down and dust gets to your lungs rather than the filters. You don't want to cough to remind yourself to clean the bags. Dave

[Albert Lee]

sounds like bigger machine I will require much more complicated setup for the dust extraction.

I dont think I will ever need a 30hp/80amp machine, a lighter duty 650mm/2 belt or 950mm single blet should enough for me, I really like the Butfering, but I read from a sawmillcreek post/reply that the entry level Butfering is made in China, not sure if there is any issue in long term, I know Griggio is made in Italy.

if I did get a Butfering 11kw 950mm wide one belt machine with platen, the suction requirement is only 1100m3/hr, CVMax can handle this easily.

[David Kumm]

sounds like bigger machine I will require much more complicated setup for the dust extraction.

I dont think I will ever need a 30hp/80amp machine, a lighter duty 650mm/2 belt or 950mm single blet should enough for me, I really like the Butfering, but I read from a sawmillcreek post/reply that the entry level Butfering is made in China, not sure if there is any issue in long term, I know Griggio is made in Italy.

if I did get a Butfering 11kw 950mm wide one belt machine with platen, the suction requirement is only 1100m3/hr, CVMax can handle this easily.

Yes, it is the second head that makes dust collection so tough. EMC makes a very nice sander in that size. The SCMI 5s would be the equivalent. Felder sanders are the same if they deliver to NZ. Butfering are Asian at the low end but if they watch the quality control the Asians can make a good sander. Sanders are not rocket science. Pretty simple with complicated electronics. Dave

[Jim Andrew]

Hi Albert, cool to converse with you in NZ. I have a small open end wbs, only one head, and for wide panels have to turn the panel around and run it through the 2nd time, and it only has one head, but sure beats a hand held belt sander or a drum sander. My cyclone is 2hp and is great for all but the sander, but the commercial shops I have had access to had wbs that were just full of dust, so thinking sanders are the hardest machine to collect the dust from. My sander runs a 16" wide belt, not sure how that converts to mm's.

[Albert Lee]

I may have to leave the large sander for now as the noise level at my property is already loud enough when I use a planer with my current dust extraction, come to think of it, its a actually a chip extractor according to Bill Pentz but its very quiet 3hp machine...

if I add a light industrial sander + 15-20 CFM compressor + good dust extraction ... am pretty sure there is going to be a lot of love from my neighbour...

[Albert Lee]

Likewise Jim, Likewise.

I have bought a sander like the one you have, its a 15-16inch (about 380-400mm) open end, heard some good things about it, think it may perform better than the Jet 22-44 oscillating sander, but I wont know cos I dont have a Jet sander.

my thinking was that until I find myself an industrial site where I can move my stuff in, setup properly with 3 phase machines and not to worry about the noise level, I will use this little WBS sander.

here is a picture of similar machine of what I bought and it is on its way...
269065

I had my doubt in this sander because when you turn the panel around it may sand the middle of the panel twice, but after seen one in action I have changed my mind, the lines in the middle of the panel can be removed easily with a ROS anyway.

[Jim Andrew]

Don't think you will be disappointed in the sander. Mine flattens panels as well as sands them. I glue up 1/16" thicker than I want the finished panel and use 60 grit belt to take it close to finished thickness then switch to 120. Even 2' wide panels come out flat.

[Nick Hicks]

here is a picture of similar machine of what I bought and it is on its way...
269065


I know I'm very late to this discussion Albert but can I please ask what machine did you buy and from whom? Drum sanders may be what I'll have to use but a WBS would be much better I think.

Cheers,
Nick