LN tapered tenon saw

[Lloyd Robins]

I am posting this due to a past thread. I recently ordered a LN tapered tenon saw. I asked about the new size, and there seemed to be a question in the person's mind about sizing. I placed the order anyway and then emailed them again about the saw sizing. I got the following reply:

Lloyd,

The tapered Tenon Saw is now 3" at the tip and 3-3/8" at the heel. This makes the blade less likely to warp and makes it a little easier to control.

I apologize for the confusion. We missed making the change on our website when we changed the saw.

Cheers,

Deneb

I checked a few hours later and the site reflected the correct saw sizing. This makes the saw plate very close in size to the Gramercy sash saw only a couple of inches longer, which is exactly what I wanted. I hope this helps. The saw should be here in a couple of days, and I am looking forward using it.

[Bryan Robinson]

I bought the tapered carcass saw and it is fantastic! I will be interested to hear about the tapered tenon saw.

[Lloyd Robins]

Bryan, I really like their tapered saws also. I have the other two already, and the hang and taper just seem to make cutting level easier as well as faster. I did have the LN progressive dovetail, and I liked it. But now that I intend to try my hand at sharpening, I decided that it would be a too complicated. I also had the 14 in tenon crosscut, but it was just too large for the work that I do, so I went with the tapered crosscut saw. So far I am very happy with the decision to change.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I apologize for the confusion. We missed making the change on our website when we changed the saw.

Deneb

I checked a few hours later and the site reflected the correct saw sizing.

P1sses me off completely that it took them six weeks to make the change on their website after I emailed them about it.

Good luck with it and let us know how you like it. I still have mine but it feels a tad bit too long.

[James Conrad]

I think the changes they made achieved what they wanted, I was able to try out the saw on my recent visit to Maine. I have the older version which I do like, not the most used saw in bunch, but I may swap it out for the new one.


P1sses me off completely that it took them six weeks to make the change on their website after I emailed them about it.

Good luck with it and let us know how you like it. I still have mine but it feels a tad bit too long.

Send the tool back if you don't like what you got due to a site listed error, Lie-Nielsen is a straight up company. It would be nice in the utopian world if all the quality tool companies we depend on did everything perfectly, I'd rather they kept that perfection in making their tools.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Send the tool back if you don't like what you got due to a site listed error

I was going to but just couldn't get around the money wasted on shipping, whoever was paying. My real point was that it takes a few seconds to correct the 6 characters of text on the page, why not just fix it when the error was first reported.

Anyway, they are great saws.

[Lloyd Robins]

Sorry, I didn't mean to reawaken any controversy over the saws. I really just wanted to let everyone know that the error was corrected and also to share my happiness over completing (for now) my saw nest. Hilton, I would have been upset at what happened also, and I certainly understand especially with the distance, time, and cost to return the saw. In fact, I did really look at other saws, even though I have drunk the LN Kool-aid and really like their tools. Also, if you don't count the Pax saw, the LN saws are also on the lower end of the price range for jointery saws, which seems strange to say. Even from Daryl W. and others the prices for the Disstons are right there with the LN. LV saws were less costly, but didn't quite meet what I wanted. All the other new saws were $90-$100 more except the Wenzloff which is out of stock at LV. Lastly, I think that the new size will be perfect for me, so I really had to go with the LN. The saw shows to be out for delivery today, and I will give it a try tonight.

[David Weaver]

LN's saws are more machine done than a lot of the more expensive looking saws, and LN has better production facilities for the stock parts of the saw (slotting backs, dealing with spring steel, cutting teeth, etc). If you look at their dovetail handle, there is a little bit of hand work in it, but not much. It still looks handsome given the amount of labor that's not in it compared to a handle that someone like wenzloff would've done. Atria is another one where the handles appear on the surface to have been designed to eliminate hand work.

The other thing LN does is to apparently not scale handles on the bigger saws for the size of the saw, and to put the handles on all of the saws pretty much in the same place. Their large tenon saws look awkward with what is similar to a disston #4 size small handle (that disston would've put on many 10 and 12" saws.

As far as the price of the refurbished saws, as much as I'd like to encourage everyone to refurbish their own saws, I understand that's dicey if the saw isn't already in almost perfect condition and someone is on their first one. I still think it's an admirable goal, because your average nice saw cost will end up being about $50 instead of $250, and you'll be the saw doctor any time it needs attention.

Even 6 or 7 years ago, it wasn't hard to go out to ebay or look at tool lists and get very good disstons for about $25, and saws like the #12s in clean or close to it shape for $50-$60. The rise of the absolute pig dealers going to all of the tool auctions and outbidding anyone who might want to use anything, only to turn around and list the tools for 3 times what they bid has pretty much killed that, combined with the interest in old saws (which is definitely bigger now than it was 7 or 8 years ago). I still pick up saws when I see something that I like, but I am glad that the rise of the dealers who are absolute greedy pigs occurred after I got most of my saws. Most of the dealers of the walt/Josh/Former clint jones types are the dealers we were used to dealing with, they bought cheap and sold reasonable and still do provide value to the new users.

What still exists out there in very good usable form is the later saws that are not great quality, but are still good quality, and that can be bought at flea markets for $3 from time to time. They are actually very respectable user saws, and they are slightly softer than many of the really old saws and the new premium saws made of 1095, so they are easy on files and easy on the filer.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Love those curly maple handles.

[Chris Hachet]

I am posting this due to a past thread. I recently ordered a LN tapered tenon saw. I asked about the new size, and there seemed to be a question in the person's mind about sizing. I placed the order anyway and then emailed them again about the saw sizing. I got the following reply:

Lloyd,

The tapered Tenon Saw is now 3" at the tip and 3-3/8" at the heel. This makes the blade less likely to warp and makes it a little easier to control.

I apologize for the confusion. We missed making the change on our website when we changed the saw.

Cheers,

Deneb

I checked a few hours later and the site reflected the correct saw sizing. This makes the saw plate very close in size to the Gramercy sash saw only a couple of inches longer, which is exactly what I wanted. I hope this helps. The saw should be here in a couple of days, and I am looking forward using it.Thank you for the information, I have been considering this saw for myself as well. I already have a couple of larger back saws, this size seems like it would be idea. Please follow up with an "in sue report" when it arrives and you have had time to use it. Thanks! Chris

[Lloyd Robins]

David, I live in a saw free zone in the Mojave desert. There is one gentleman who sells excellent rehabed saws on ebay that lives in the area, but my guess is that he travels to the LA/San Diego area to find them at the swap meets and flea markets. The LN handles seem to fit my hand well (small) so I guess that I will see how it works on a larger saw. It seemed okay on the other LN tenon saws that I have tried. I got my #12 on ebay from a gentleman who has excellent feedback. It looks pretty beat up, but the handle is comfortable, and it cuts like a dream. The most comfortable saw handle that I own is my D-8 that I got from our own Mike 1010. It is a wonderful saw. I have tried one rehab of my own, and I really didn't enjoy it. I guess the saw was in extra bad shape, but I probably won't try it again for at least a while.

Hilton, I love the handles also, but I think that David is correct, which probably accounts for a lot of the price difference between the LN and higher priced saws. I wonder why Pax doesn't just step it up a bit and move into the market.

Chris, I will give you an update. I am not an expert or even good sawyer, but I will report as best as I can.

[David Weaver]

MJD auctions might be a decent place to get a batch of saws, but it's iffy whether or not they can get your bid made for you after you place it, and in the only case where I've had a high bid and they didn't screw it up, they tied my long saws together so tightly toe to toe that the top two were bent permanently in the shape that they tied them with a pronounced gradual wave that I had to hammer out.

At any rate, they still may be the best option. You can literally get a half dozen or a dozen saws for the price of one restored saw, just have to be careful in a lot like that where you pay only for the saws you'd like to have and ignore the ones you wouldn't and don't count them as value to you, they'll more likely be a burden (i.e., there are lots that have 6 saws, and 5 are desirable, and lots that have 6 and 2 or 1 are desirable and the one that's desirable is really really desirable - the others are no asset then and you only want to bid what you'd bid for the one).

Browns auctions also do the same thing, sell in bunches.

If that isn't palatable, ebay still has a lot of saws that go through, especially atkins or some disstons that you can ask the seller if they're straight, and if the answer is yes and the teeth are in decent shape, they are a hop and a skip from being a great saw. Handles with names carved in them and such make them a better deal for a user.

[Chris Griggs]

FWIW Chris, I too think the LN saws are a very good value. They bridge a nice gap between the LV saws (which are a crazy good value, but possibly not everyone's cup of tea), and the smaller makers who smallest saws start at like $175. My first 2 backsaws were LNs and they served me very very well (sold both when I made my own...thanks Archie!). I had the 11" 15 ppi rip carcass which made for a great dovetail plus other things saw that I and the 14" xcut tenon saw. I loved the carcass saw especially, it was fantastic...though I have no regrets about selling it I still miss it sometimes just because it was the saw I learned on. The tenon saw was nice but I personally like a thinner saw plate so I was less in love with it...good saw though, and thinking back on it, it probably came with just a hair too much set in it and had I known at the time to stone it just a little I probably would have liked it even more.

The LN 16" thin plate tenon saw is a phenomenal tool..I've only used it briefly but it was love at first stroke. If I hadn't gotten into building my own I definitely would have purchased it, NO QUESTION.

[James Conrad]

I was going to but just couldn't get around the money wasted on shipping, whoever was paying. My real point was that it takes a few seconds to correct the 6 characters of text...

Agreed on that, I don't know what they have for content management system, or who does their marketing for that matter - but if they are trying to keep it local they may be challenged in finding a decent provider outside of Portland. My experience shows that a majority of Maine businesses still rely on that customer/programmer route to get ones site updated, and that can be unfortunate... Anyway enough on that.

[James Conrad]

David your synopsis is spot on, really liked reading that.
Thanks.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Dave,

Did you score on any of the saw lots at the Avoca auction? All I got were a couple of wooden plow planes, an expensive plumb bob and a Preston turning saw (I "accumulate" plumb bobs and anything Preston).

[David Weaver]

No, I think I would've won one of the lots that I bid on but I don't know if the high bidder was a mail in bidder or someone at the auction (I had high bid on one of the bids they screwed up). They took my bids and switched them to other lots, which I then "won" (but didn't bid on and ultimately declined, of course)

Dealing with making sure they didn't send me the lots that they switched my bids to (which were junk lots) was a chore, but it was clear that they were pretty unconcerned about the whole thing despite the fact that I mentioned that I was pretty disappointed. I'd assume 99% of folks would have a better experience than I did, though. For the bids that didn't get screwed up, the prices are so high that I don't really even want to be in the running, but I'd have given a fair bit more than the winning bid on one of the auctions they switched me out of.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have no quibble with what I bought as an absentee bidder. However I may quit auctions entirely, be they live or via the web, as I always seem to get items that are not high on my priority list (in other words, I have terminal auction-itus). If you recall at the time of the auction, a few of us here did indicate we had some issues with submitting bids. My issue was limited to not being able to access the site a few days before the submittal deadline. That could be that the MJD audience is growing beyond the size his server can handles.

PATINA and the two Brown sales/auctions will be it for me hereon out (or so I say at this moment).

[Mark Dorman]

Maybe I missed it but what is the advantage of a tapered saw blade?

[Chris Griggs]

Maybe I missed it but what is the advantage of a tapered saw blade?

What I'd always read is that the purpose was to help ensure you hit your line on the visible side of the work piece before you hit the back side and this avoid cutting past it. No idea if this is true, but it makes sense I guess. I mean if you are sawing down with the spine perpendicular to the piece the near side would hit the line sooner. I have a couple saws with tapered plates, and in reality I don't notice a difference in how they work then a non tapered plate, as I make a point to pay attention to where my line is regardless. Hang angles and rake have a far bigger impact on how the saw feels in general. I like them though, and if/when I buy/make more I will probably use tapered plates again, but honestly its mostly just because I think the tapered plates look cool. Its not something I would pay extra money for (and in the case of the LNs you don't), but its a cool feature given the option.

[Lloyd Robins]

The taper combined with the hang angle seem to work for me at least with the tapered crosscut saw. I did some x-cutting today on 6 in. wide 4/4 boards, and both sides of the board just seemed to finish at the same time without damaging the bench hook. This has not been the usual occurrence for me.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I suppose that begs the question about the tapered dovetail saw then. I mean how much is the taper going to help when cutting stock as thin as 1/2" or 3/4"?

[Lloyd Robins]

Hilton, I have not yet had much time to work with the dovetail saw. I have just done some test cuts in 4/4 wood. I guess with Christmas coming, I will try to find a project to see how it works. So far with my bench height and sawing motion the crosscut works extremely well. It just seems to flatten out my stroke. As to dovetails, how the moxon vise and the bench height work together will be interesting to find out. However, my bench height is adjustable, so I hope to be able work it out.

[David Weaver]

I have no quibble with what I bought as an absentee bidder. However I may quit auctions entirely, be they live or via the web, as I always seem to get items that are not high on my priority list (in other words, I have terminal auction-itus). If you recall at the time of the auction, a few of us here did indicate we had some issues with submitting bids. My issue was limited to not being able to access the site a few days before the submittal deadline. That could be that the MJD audience is growing beyond the size his server can handles.

PATINA and the two Brown sales/auctions will be it for me hereon out (or so I say at this moment).

Getting things "not high on the priority list" is a pretty good way to put it. If my bids would've been right, I would've won some mediocre stuff that I wanted, but the stuff that would've been more like what I wanted in my till is the kind of thing my bid isn't close on (despite bidding above their estimated ranges - you can usually guess the appropriate range from experience a lot better than they seem to be able to).

I'd imagine the audience for the MJD auctions are getting bigger than they can handle for internet bids. Another reason to avoid it until they can figure out what they're doing. Imagine those auctions were great things to go to 15 years ago.

[Chris Griggs]

I suppose that begs the question about the tapered dovetail saw then. I mean how much is the taper going to help when cutting stock as thin as 1/2" or 3/4"?

MATH TIME!!! The LN dovetail saw tapers 1/4" or .25" down its 10" length. .25/10 = .025 or 1/40th" taper per inch of saw plate. Divide that by 2 and you get 1/80th" of taper per 1/2". For 3/4" stock multiply 1/40th by 3/4 and you get 3/160ths" or 0.01875. More than enough taper!

Pretty self explanatory Hilton...Jeez surprised you even felt the need to ask :p

[Hilton Ralphs]

For 3/4" stock multiply 1/40th by 3/4 and you get 3/160ths" or 0.01875. More than enough taper!

Pretty self explanatory Hilton...Jeez surprised you even felt the need to ask :p

Ja well no so fine! (Saffer expression)

The question remains, how much does the taper help me..........

[Chris Griggs]

Ja well no so fine! (Saffer expression)

The question remains, how much does the taper help me..........

Don't know. I guess if you have a tendency to saw to the line on the side your facing you and just past it on the far side even a tiny bit is potentially helpful. I guess the reason I never thought it made the big of a difference to me is because I tend to saw with the saw tilted up hill a bit any way and then level it out at the end of the cut. The amount it helps probably depends on how you saw. I imagine that if you saw straight across even a tiny bit of taper would potentially help you out...you'd just be less likely to saw past the line on the side you can't see. Sounds like Lloyd found it helpful, it certainly doesn't hurt, so all things equal I'd opt the taper again. Have you noticed any benefit from it in your tenon saw?

[David Weaver]

Ja well no so fine! (Saffer expression)

The question remains, how much does the taper help me..........

I'll give the answer that many older folks used to give me when I was young (somehow, I got the nickname "24 questions"). When I asked how much on something subjective or variable, they would always say "about that much". Not with any hand signals or indications, just that verbal answer to throw me off!

I don't have any saws that I use regularly that have a tapered back, and I don't have any particularly problem overcutting base lines. If you look around at the old saws, though, a large proportion of them are tapered.

So it's the kind of question that has an "about that much" kind of answer.

[Hilton Ralphs]

My question was merely rhetoric though.

Thought it would add to the ambiance of the thread.

[David Weaver]

Thought it would add to the ambiance of the thread.

I'll get the candles and the muzak machine.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Getting things "not high on the priority list" is a pretty good way to put it. If my bids would've been right, I would've won some mediocre stuff that I wanted, but the stuff that would've been more like what I wanted in my till is the kind of thing my bid isn't close on (despite bidding above their estimated ranges - you can usually guess the appropriate range from experience a lot better than they seem to be able to).

I'd imagine the audience for the MJD auctions are getting bigger than they can handle for internet bids. Another reason to avoid it until they can figure out what they're doing. Imagine those auctions were great things to go to 15 years ago.

I've been bidding on the MJD auctions for close to (or maybe even more than) a decade. His site seems a bit nicer today versus when I started, but the execution of bids does not seem to have kept up.

Did you ever get his CD showing prices realized? I did about 3 or 4 years ago and I'm due to get it again. I believe it comes out at the beginning of auction season and shows prices realized at all preceding (all prior years) MJD auctions. Very educational, though with any collectable, prices are subjectively based on condition.

[David Weaver]

Tony, no I didn't (get a realized price CD - but that seems a good idea, and would be a good indicator of whether or not I should be bidding at all), but I'm such a sucker that I just put in more bids on saws. I really have no ability to resist the oddball saws that look like quality saws but have names I've never heard of. I should kick my own rear end.

I wouldn't be surprised if they saw my name on the bids and canceled them, though. And I guess at this point, it wouldn't bother me that much, I shouldn't be bidding. The odds of having to chase my tail around to find out what they would send me in error can't be that great.

They have a woodrough and mcparlin saw of the vintage of the one I did get in my only successful bid ever, and I am so pleased with that saw that I want as many of those as I can find (they say "patent temper - patent ground" on them, some of the W&McP saws aren't that desriable, though).

[Jack Curtis]

MATH TIME!!! The LN dovetail saw tapers 1/4" or .25" down its 10" length. .25/10 = .025 or 1/40th" taper per inch of saw plate. Divide that by 2 and you get 1/80th" of taper per 1/2". For 3/4" stock multiply 1/40th by 3/4 and you get 3/160ths" or 0.01875. More than enough taper!

Now that's a thick saw. For it to taper 1/4" over the length it must start out > 1/4". I use mostly Japanese saws, and perhaps they've spoiled me for good, but not a one starts out > 1/4".

[David Weaver]

The taper is in height, and not thickness of the saw plate. I don't know if LN has a thick dovetail saw, but their saws are generally available in plate thicknesses between .015" and somewhere around twice that.

[Chris Griggs]

Now that's a thick saw. For it to taper 1/4" over the length it must start out > 1/4". I use mostly Japanese saws, and perhaps they've spoiled me for good, but not a one starts out > 1/4".

hahahah. Yeah just like their planes they decided to dramatically beef things up from the originals. They also offer saw plates in manganese bronze for those who want that added weight.:)

The word taper is confusing given its use to typically refer to saw plate. I prefer the term "canted".

[Hilton Ralphs]

I prefer the term "canted".
Trapezoidal shape.

[Jack Curtis]

hahahah. Yeah just like their planes they decided to dramatically beef things up from the originals. They also offer saw plates in manganese bronze for those who want that added weight.:)...

That's interesting, wonder what brings on this supersizing.

[Jack Curtis]

Trapezoidal shape.

I assume you're describing an end-of-the blade point of view. My Japanese saws have some taper, but most of it is top to bottom, not heel to toe, of which there is some taper though.

[David Weaver]

Hopefully he's talking about a trapezoid where unlike most cases, the base is one of the short sides (the ends of the saw plate that are parallel to each other).

[Hilton Ralphs]

(the ends of the saw plate that are parallel to each other).

zat is zee von