Saw stop Question

[Jay Jolliffe]

I have a PCS saw. Is SawStop the only saw with that technology.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jay, at present, yes.................Regards, Rod.

[Frank Trinkle]

You have the second best table saw on the market now! The only better one is the more expensive Industrial Table Saw (ICS), also from SawStop. Enjoy, while enjoying the reality that you will likely save your fingers in a momentary lack of concentration.

Cheers!

[Joe Mioux]

You have the second best table saw on the market now! The only better one is the more expensive Industrial Table Saw (ICS), also from SawStop. Enjoy, while enjoying the reality that you will likely save your fingers in a momentary lack of concentration.

Cheers!

Agree, but then again I am a biased ICS owner.... :)

[Jay Jolliffe]

I've had the saw for about 1 1/2 yrs with no problems....It had the best instructions I've ever seen to put any thing together. Why I was asking is someone was working with me in my shop & he took some classes somewhere. He said he thought the table saw where he went was a Felder he tripped the safety on it & he had to replace the cartridge like on the Saw Stop....So that's why I'm asking. I didn't think so but I don't know all. Just ask my wife....:rolleyes:

[David Hawxhurst]

there are others working on flesh sensing technology but i don't think any of them have released it yet. if it wasn't a saw stop it maybe a prototype system.

[glenn bradley]

If Felder had is I imagine they would brag on it. I have not seen anything about them using this technology but, maybe they're shy.

[Kent A Bathurst]

You have the second best table saw on the market now! The only better one is the more expensive Industrial Table Saw (ICS), also from SawStop.

Sez you................:p :p :p

couldn't resist......

Signed:

Non-Kool-Aid Drinker.

;)

[Joseph Tarantino]

Sez you................:p :p :p

couldn't resist......

Signed:

Non-Kool-Aid Drinker.

;)

and, they're off!

[Clay Fails]

I dont want to fan any flames here, but i too am an ICS owner who thinks its a great saw. My buying decision, believe it or not, was not based on the flesh sensing technology; that was a bonus. I went sawstop due to the overall build quality in every componen. I looked at PM, Delta and SS, and SS came out on top in my mind.

There lots of great machines out there that will provide excellent results.

[Peter Aeschliman]

It's hilarious to me how people get so upset about sawstops. If you want one and have the budget, buy one. If you don't, then don't. Simple as it gets.

[Danny Hamsley]

I met with two guys today, a hardwood lumber retailer and a guy that has a sawmill, kiln, and does custom millwork. Both were missing fingers, and they proceed to have a missing finger "how-it-happened" discussion. I have all ten fingers and I have a sawstop. Not to say that if you don't have a sawstop that you will be missing fingers, but technological innovation is a good thing. Although all I have is the 1.75 HP contractor saw version, it is still a great saw. Not to get into a political discussion, but maybe other manufacturers can develop similar technology and level the playing field.

[Erik Loza]

If Felder had is I imagine they would brag on it. I have not seen anything about them using this technology but, maybe they're shy.

What is interesting is that there are way more safety regulations and criteria for machines manufactured in the EU than what is allowed to be sold here in the US. For example, the dado cut is forbidden in Europe (due to the fact that is a blind cut with no depth limitation and a human hand passes the workpiece over the blade). With the Euro machines, you're not going to see any single "magic bullet" safety features like a blade brake or whatever. The actual design of Euro machines is what precludes the operator from danger, i.e., the operator never stands directly behind the blade, the riving knife is there, 90% of the work happens to the left of the sawblade and uses a frame table to support the workpieces, etc. This is why the Europeans "see no point" in having a technology like this, if that makes sense.

All this being said, if I were in the market for a regular style table saw, I would consider it. Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Henderson]

This is why the Europeans "see no point" in having a technology like this, if that makes sense.

All this being said, if I were in the market for a regular style table saw, I would consider it. Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

It hard to imaging any entity who is interested in safety saying that they "see no point" in a fallback safety device, especially if the device was a small part of the overall cost of the unit. While there may be a smaller chance of someone putting their hand into the blade on a European machine, there's still a chance. I'd certainly want such a fallback safety device if I owned one of those units.

Mike

[Erik Loza]

Mike, I'm not arguing with anyone or taking a position on this or that feature and naturally, neither of us want to see anyone get hurt. Just telling you how the Europeans view things and why they design things the way they do. Obviously, any machine can hurt anyone who is careless enough to let it, regardless of how many "dummy proof" features this or that mfr. installs in it. My point was that the EU manufacturers have historically tried to engineer the entire machine in a way that minimizes the operator to possible danger, as opposed to just one feature. Again, I am not opposed to the product being asked about.

Regards,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Stephen Cherry]

It hard to imaging any entity who is interested in safety saying that they "see no point" in a fallback safety device, especially if the device was a small part of the overall cost of the unit. While there may be a smaller chance of someone putting their hand into the blade on a European machine, there's still a chance. I'd certainly want such a fallback safety device if I owned one of those units.

Mike

Mike- after having used my felder saw for a while, it seems to me that you would really need to go out of your way to get your hand into the blade. Most cuts are accomplished with your hand very far away from the blade, which is covered by the overarm dust collector/guard. Even in a normal rip, you push through with a push stick that stores in the overarm guard. The riving knife holds the lumber in place, you just reach up, grab the push stick and give a push. And your body is out of the line of fire.

As Erik mentioned, the eurosaws have safety built into the saws from start to finish. You get a design that attempts to address all aspects of safety, including kickback and dust. I would consider a sawstop a big step down from the felder in every way, including safety. Plus, you can put on a big blade for thick lumber, or use the scoring blade for ply.

Of course, comparing to a unisaw, pm66, etc, the sawstop is a big plus.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Let's keep this thread friendly please!

Sawstop threads have a history of being removed due to people being uncivil.

I believe the question the OP asked was is Sawstop the only saw with this technology. The answer is "yes" it is the only one currently in production.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I only started this thread is to ask a question. It's been answered so give it a rest.

[Rod Sheridan]

What is interesting is that there are way more safety regulations and criteria for machines manufactured in the EU than what is allowed to be sold here in the US. For example, the dado cut is forbidden in Europe (due to the fact that is a blind cut with no depth limitation and a human hand passes the workpiece over the blade). With the Euro machines, you're not going to see any single "magic bullet" safety features like a blade brake or whatever. The actual design of Euro machines is what precludes the operator from danger, i.e., the operator never stands directly behind the blade, the riving knife is there, 90% of the work happens to the left of the sawblade and uses a frame table to support the workpieces, etc. This is why the Europeans "see no point" in having a technology like this, if that makes sense.

All this being said, if I were in the market for a regular style table saw, I would consider it. Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Erik, are youy sure about the dado being forbidden in EU countries?

My understanding was that they were legal if the blade brake could stop the cutter in the required time and there was a saw guard on the saw?

I think the SS is the only significant saw safety improvement in the last 80 or 90 years. All the guards/riving knives/multi position fences are that old.

That said I do own a Euro saw/shaper combo that obviously doesn't have the SS technology.

My opinion is that in my use, always using the guard/riving knife or a stock feeder, and having the multi function fence, the SS technology wouldn't be as helpful as for someone who doesn't follow proper safety procedures.

The SS is fantastic, however it's meant to be a secondary safety system, for times when the primary safety system has failed.

That said, although I wouldn't get much benefit from the SS technology, if it were available on a format machine I would have ordered it as an option.

Regards, Rod.

[jack forsberg]

rod is right dado are not band it just the there use unguarded is and they tend to use other machines to trench. The reason is the riving knife is not suted to a stack and so the dander of kick backs is there but a power feeder or Shaw guard is used as long the saws breaking can stop the head in 10 seconds. EU just don't build with Dadoes that tends to be the realm of the amateur.

SS will never be on the big slider as the power to stop a big 18" blade is just not there. SS is for small saws.


jack
English machines



Erik, are youy sure about the dado being forbidden in EU countries?

My understanding was that they were legal if the blade brake could stop the cutter in the required time and there was a saw guard on the saw?

I think the SS is the only significant saw safety improvement in the last 80 or 90 years. All the guards/riving knives/multi position fences are that old.

That said I do own a Euro saw/shaper combo that obviously doesn't have the SS technology.

My opinion is that in my use, always using the guard/riving knife or a stock feeder, and having the multi function fence, the SS technology wouldn't be as helpful as for someone who doesn't follow proper safety procedures.

The SS is fantastic, however it's meant to be a secondary safety system, for times when the primary safety system has failed.

That said, although I wouldn't get much benefit from the SS technology, if it were available on a format machine I would have ordered it as an option.

Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

That's interesting: I didn't realize there was a "condition" that would allow use of dado. Thanks for clarifying. I know that for us, it's only the US machines that get this option. No other country seems to order it.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Hawxhurst]

so i'm curious how many saw stop owners have averted injury because of the flesh senseing technology?

[Erik Loza]

so i'm curious how many saw stop owners have averted injury because of the flesh senseing technology?

IIRC, there was a thread here not too long ago where this happened to someone.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Stephen Cherry]

That's interesting: I didn't realize there was a "condition" that would allow use of dado. Thanks for clarifying. I know that for us, it's only the US machines that get this option. No other country seems to order it.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA


Here's one. This could even convince non beliebers. I guess if you are going to cut without a guard, this technology is worth it.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198691-So-that-Sawstop-that-I-bought-for-my-employees&highlight=sawstop

[johnny means]

My Sawstop saved my Incra miter gauge, twice :-)

[Glen Blanchard]

My Sawstop saved my Incra miter gauge, twice :-)


LOL. Glad I'm not the only one with two miter gauge saves.

[jack forsberg]

That's interesting: I didn't realize there was a "condition" that would allow use of dado. Thanks for clarifying. I know that for us, it's only the US machines that get this option. No other country seems to order it.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Erik

stub arbors can be had but like I said its not the machine used for trenching. there are far safer machines for that.

The HSE (heath and safety executive) UK have a safe practices PDF showing how to guard this cut with a Shaw guarding and if guarding was used the SS link mishap would have never happened.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/dado_zps0581ac87.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/dado_zps0581ac87.jpg.html)

[Erik Loza]

Jack, that's a really good reference guide for safety use on saws. Mind if I save it for sending to customers?

On that Shaw device, looks like it's just a shaper pressure shoe rather an actual saw guard, unless I am missing something. How would you use it on a table saw if it needs to be bolted to the cast iron table, behind the rip fence? Again, maybe I am missing something.

Thanks,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[mreza Salav]

so i'm curious how many saw stop owners have averted injury because of the flesh senseing technology?

According to sawstop, there have been over 2000 "reported" saves to them (it could be larger as I suppose not everybody who has been saved informs them, although you'd get a free brake cartridge if you do).

[David C. Roseman]

According to sawstop, there have been over 2000 "reported" saves to them (it could be larger as I suppose not everybody who has been saved informs them, although you'd get a free brake cartridge if you do).

Does this work for Incra miter gauge saves too? :)

David

[jack forsberg]

Erik the PDFs are available to anyone for training purposes there is a larger list of other tools here including the spindle moulder.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/workingmachine.htm

yes the Shaw guard/pressure shoes is used on a number of machines including the jointer though in the UK we call that machines a planner. The spindle moulder uses a 2 piece Shaw guard but for the most part its a well used old type guard made to be mounted on a number of machines.

here is how they set the spindle moulder up for rebates and dados in the UK the machine of chose ,and how you are trained to do so.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Kqxl1P3EY&feature=player_detailpage










Jack, that's a really good reference guide for safety use on saws. Mind if I save it for sending to customers?

On that Shaw device, looks like it's just a shaper pressure shoe rather an actual saw guard, unless I am missing something. How would you use it on a table saw if it needs to be bolted to the cast iron table, behind the rip fence? Again, maybe I am missing something.

Thanks,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[John Coloccia]

Does this work for Incra miter gauge saves too? :)

David

Actually, they can tell the difference. If you send the cartridge back and it's a legitimate save, they replace the cartridge for free, at least.

I've run my fence into various woodworking blades over the years....mostly into my bandsaw blade. Thankfully, never into my beloved SS blade (now gone....no more table saw in the shop :( c'est la vie :) )

[Andrew Pitonyak]

rod is right dado are not band it just the there use unguarded is and they tend to use other machines to trench. The reason is the riving knife is not suted to a stack and so the dander of kick backs is there but a power feeder or Shaw guard is used as long the saws breaking can stop the head in 10 seconds. EU just don't build with Dadoes that tends to be the realm of the amateur.

SS will never be on the big slider as the power to stop a big 18" blade is just not there. SS is for small saws.

Couple of thoughts.... First, "it sure would be fun to try and build one".... and you thought you soiled your pants when the brake fired on the existing SS :D "Blew out my ears and shattered the windows, but the blade stopped"

When I started with woodworking and knew almost nothing, I called Forest to discuss a Dado blade for my Ridgid table saw. There was obviously some sort of communication break-down, because they saw no reason I should not purchase the 10" DADO set rather than a smaller 8" set. Well, it turns out that smaller would have been a better choice for many reasons generally related to the potential mass of a bunch of 10" blades. Apparently this also stresses the entire mechanism. Sadly, I found out after I already owned the 10" set.

When I purchased my Saw Stop, I purchased a smaller DADO set.

Sorry Jack, but you triggered a memory where I lacked the requisite knowledge to make a good decision. :( My local Woodcraft dealer gave me a good lesson on such things after the fact.

[marty shultz]

I have a felder slider and a sawstop. I wish the Felder had the same technology for one additional level of safety.

[Kevin Groenke]

so i'm curious how many saw stop owners have averted injury because of the flesh senseing technology?

Since installing 2 of the first 50 SawStop's delivered back in 2004 in our higher ed student shop we have had at least 6 incidents in which flesh touched spinning blade. No stitches, no ER visits, very little blood: a few band-aids and some antibiotic. What could have happened if we hadn't invested in the technology? Your guess is as good as mine, but I would guess that at least one of those incidents could have been resulted in serious injury with life-changing ramifications. I have heard of many similar "saves" in similar shops around the country.

Of course the machines have all of the safety risks associated with a tablesaw: user knowledge, attentiveness and caution are always required but the added level of protection is great piece of mind in our situation.

-kevin