TOH - free-hand cuts on TS

[Brian Tymchak]

Guess I have to vent.. I watched an episode of This Old House over the weekend where Tommy is ripping some stock on a portable TS, freehand :eek:, without use of the fence or any guards. I saw him do this on another show sometime back as well. To me this is incredibly dangerous, just inviting kickback with the slightest waver while feeding stock into the blade. I guess if TOH has no qualms about showing that, I'm worried it's a pretty well-accepted technique in the building trades. I would hope that someone at TOH would know better, and at least edit that part out, realizing that any technique demonstrated in the show can influence a novice viewer to try it. With the recent case where Ryobi got successfully sued by a clueless contractor not using their saw properly, I would think these shows would be vigilant about demonstrating proper use of tools.

Having grown up watching Norm all those years on NYW, I keep hearing in the back of my head. "..Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools."....

OK - flame off.

[Art Mann]

Freehand trimming on a table saw is indeed a common practice in the finish carpentry trade. I have done it myself many times. Having said that, I think it is a somewhat dangerous practice even for experienced carpenters and I avoid it if there is any practical alternative. I would never demonstrate such a thing on national television, for fear that someone who does not thoroughly understand table saw dynamics and the risks involved would attempt it and get hurt.

[Stephen Tashiro]

What particular table saw was it? I didn't see the crime. I agree in principle with your verdict. However, small portable table saws are very low powered and are more likely to stall than to kickback. The guard arragnements on many portable table saws are so awkward that they are useless. Using a tablesaw on wood that has been squared up is a completely different thing than using it on the lumber for carpentry. The premise of "fine" wood working techniques is that boards have been trued up. I can see that a carpenter would do better cutting a line freehand than running the edge of a crooked board against a fence.

[Todd Burch]

Agree 100% - they should not be showing it without disclaiming it. (Even as stupid as the TV disclaimers are - like someone driving a car off a cliff, and the car is now soaring like a glider, and the caption says "don't try this at home".) Freehanding on a tablesaw is just a bad idea all the way around. I used my first tablesaw at 15. And even today, 35 years later, you could not pay me to freehand.

Along a similar vein... you got all these DIY shows on HGTV doing a remodel in 30-60 minutes, and I guess, for the audience excitement factor, they have clueless homeowners swinging sledgehammers in highly salvageable kitchens and bathrooms, and people punching and kicking and jumping through walls as well. All of them completely idiotic. They film this stuff as if that's the way you are supposed to do it.

[Brian Tymchak]

What particular table saw was it? I believe it was a Dewalt portable, although I can't say for certain.

[Alan Bienlein]

I do free hand cutting myself. It takes alot of hand eye coordination. If you want to see some more skip ahead to the 4:50 and the 8:50 marks. It is an interesting video it shows some interesting ways of dealing with cupped and bowed/twisted boards..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQvURVFpqSI

[Mark Bolton]

I do free hand cutting myself. It takes alot of hand eye coordination. If you want to see some more skip ahead to the 4:50 and the 8:50 marks. It is an interesting video it shows some interesting ways of dealing with cupped and bowed/twisted boards..



Alan,
I think you may succeed in multiple cranial explosions posting a video like that HAHA.. Should be funny. Clearly craftsman but lordy may there will be some ticks and twitches when people watch that :D Large panel glue ups with 3 clamps, or four if lucky. "Are those mitered bread board....?!?!?", Production style jointing by hand, on and on. Great video, but not one for the over-complicators. Couldnt get a good look but looked like the three clamp glue up even used HF clamps.

[Eric DeSilva]

Interesting. Anyone using the one-handed bidirectional jointing technique shown around 10:00?

[Chris Padilla]

...and people punching and kicking and jumping through walls as well. All of them completely idiotic. They film this stuff as if that's the way you are supposed to do it.

Hmmm, that is how I always do it!!! Why take all the fun out of taking a wall down or stripping drywall, Todd!! :p

[Todd Burch]

Interesting. Anyone using the one-handed bidirectional jointing technique shown around 10:00?

Not one handed, and not bidirectional**, but I frequently concentrate on the high spots before doing the whole edge.

** don't tell anyone, but sometimes I don't lift the board all the way up and I do hear some cutting when pulling back. No damage has ever been done. ;)

[Chris Padilla]

V2 of what was posted above and A LOT more woodworking to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7NOb-EF2TeU

[Alan Bienlein]

I loved how well his mitered dove tail joint went together!

[Matt Day]

Along a similar vein... you got all these DIY shows on HGTV doing a remodel in 30-60 minutes, and I guess, for the audience excitement factor, they have clueless homeowners swinging sledgehammers in highly salvageable kitchens and bathrooms, and people punching and kicking and jumping through walls as well. All of them completely idiotic. They film this stuff as if that's the way you are supposed to do it.

I completely agree that some (most) of the DIY/HGTV shows do not stress safety like they should, especially when the expert/contractor is the one free-hand cutting on the TS or nobody is wearing the right PPE or none at all. I've seen Tom Silva do the free hand cut on a TS before as well - he knows better which is the sad thing.

I disagree that they're all idiotic. I watch them to learn about new products and to see different styles of projects. I'm glad they have these shows and I hope they inspire some people to get dirty and try it themselves. Too many people in my generation (I'm 33) don't know anything about home improvement or maintenance. I just hope they don't learn about safety from some of these shows!

[David Weaver]

Where do I get the board smasher shown at 10:00?

[Cody Colston]

I don't remember the episode but I saw Norm make a free-hand cut on the TS once. He even announced "I'll do this freehand." I never saw him do it again so I'm guessing the safety police sent droves of emails condemning the method. I think it's similar to seeing an experienced carpenter hold a two-by-four across his knee and cut it with a circular saw. There's just some things that the inexperienced need to realize they shouldn't try. Like Dirty Harry said, "a man's got to know his limitations."

[Todd Burch]

I disagree that they're all idiotic...

OK, you're right. They are not ALL idiotic. ;)

[Jeff Duncan]

This came up on another forum as well several weeks back. It led to many pages of crucifying TOH and Tom for such reckless behavior. If they had a stake and a torch things would have gotten ugly:eek:

I like TOH b/c it shows how "real" contractors do things in their day to day. If someone finds something too dangerous....don't do it! It's pretty simple when you think about it. So my vent is that I'm tired as heck of the PC police and the pages of warnings and labels that come with any and every device that could possibly cause an injury.....and some that couldn't! Watch the show and enjoy it for it's entertainment value and even learn something from it. But I don't want to see these shows become edited to the point of meaninglessness b/c of all the PC police jumping all over anything they personally consider dangerous:(

I've worked in this trade for close to 2 decades now. Over those years I've learned a lot of different tips, tricks, and techniques. Many of these I won't ever recommend on a forum b/c I know there too dangerous for the average guy to attempt. Moreover I wont even let employees do them in the shop unless I'm absolutely certain they have the experience and comfort level to do so. Most guys should never attempt doing a freehand cut on the table saw, and I know plenty will argue nobody should. But most guys shouldn't drive their cars 200 mph like they do in Nascar. Most guys shouldn't walk into a cage with a tiger like animal trainers do. Most guys shouldn't juggle chainsaws....and so on and so on. People who have years of experience doing something can do certain things most guys can't. So understand that Tom's made many thousands of cuts on the table saw and even though it may look incredibly dangerous to some, it's something he has done before and is comfortable with. So simply put.... if you see someone do something on TV and your not comfortable with it....Don't do it!!!

vent over,
JeffD

[Duane Meadows]

Saw a guy cutting aluminum trim freehand... workpiece held with one hand, circular saw with the other. Yes, he cut himself before I finished the job I was there to do. Not to seriously, thankfully, but some things just aren't worth the risk. He was very fortunate not to get cut worse than he did.

[glenn bradley]

Incredibly foolish. All of you who do this simply increase the injury statistics for tablesaws sooner or later. Thanks for helping that nimrod win his lawsuit for doing the same thing; unsafe use of a known dangerous tool.

. . . was I too blunt? ;)

Being dumb on your own time is your business. If you are in an instructional capacity, of ANY sort - to ANY degree, it is your solemn responsibility to demonstrate excessive safety. That way when the observer only does things half as safe as the way you showed him, he will still be able to count to nine.

[Alan Bienlein]

This came up on another forum as well several weeks back. It led to many pages of crucifying TOH and Tom for such reckless behavior. If they had a stake and a torch things would have gotten ugly:eek:

I like TOH b/c it shows how "real" contractors do things in their day to day. If someone finds something too dangerous....don't do it! It's pretty simple when you think about it. So my vent is that I'm tired as heck of the PC police and the pages of warnings and labels that come with any and every device that could possibly cause an injury.....and some that couldn't! Watch the show and enjoy it for it's entertainment value and even learn something from it. But I don't want to see these shows become edited to the point of meaninglessness b/c of all the PC police jumping all over anything they personally consider dangerous:(

I've worked in this trade for close to 2 decades now. Over those years I've learned a lot of different tips, tricks, and techniques. Many of these I won't ever recommend on a forum b/c I know there too dangerous for the average guy to attempt. Moreover I wont even let employees do them in the shop unless I'm absolutely certain they have the experience and comfort level to do so. Most guys should never attempt doing a freehand cut on the table saw, and I know plenty will argue nobody should. But most guys shouldn't drive their cars 200 mph like they do in Nascar. Most guys shouldn't walk into a cage with a tiger like animal trainers do. Most guys shouldn't juggle chainsaws....and so on and so on. People who have years of experience doing something can do certain things most guys can't. So understand that Tom's made many thousands of cuts on the table saw and even though it may look incredibly dangerous to some, it's something he has done before and is comfortable with. So simply put.... if you see someone do something on TV and your not comfortable with it....Don't do it!!!

vent over,
JeffD

+1 and thank you for saying what I was thinking!

[John TenEyck]

Well Norm may have said " "..Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools.".... , but he sure never followed it. I never, ever, not once, saw the splitter or guard installed on his TS. Maybe way back in the beginning he said they had been removed "for clarity" or some such foolish dribble, but he sure didn't say it at the start of every episode. I don't believe he wore hearing protection either much of the time. Probably a much longer list, but those two always stood out as glaring contradictions of that opening statement about safety. I like Norm a lot, just not that part.

John

[Larry Frank]

I do not care who you are or how experienced but cutting freehand on a table saw is nuts. But, hopefully the only person who will get hurt is the guy doing it. Some may be able to get away with it once 10 times, 1000 times,.....but the probability is that it will get you.

I just love all of the people who say they are some experienced that they can get away with it. What happens when you have a bad day or are thinking about something else or have a cold.......its your hands and fingers to do what you will.

[Steve Baumgartner]

Have people forgotten the lawsuit and expensive judgement against Ryobi when a contractor was injured doing exactly this operation? SawStop certainly hasn't!

[Peter Quinn]

Yup, guys freehand on portables all the time. I watched another TOH where a cabinet sub was scribing toe kicks freehand on a little ryobi TS. Yes, purposefully making a long radius curve to match an old floor. Scary to me, I'd use a jig saw, he did it like eating cake. I have a good friend that does this as a matter of practice. We had a talk about it after I picked him up off the floor of my shop. He says its easier to snap a straight line and straighten a board on site, no jointers available generally, and you can lean into the blade to stall the saw and kick the over load should things get weird. So he tries this with my 5HP PM66, failing to recognize there are a few major differences between that and his job site saw...he's been in the trades for almost 30 years.....solid gut shot, thank god he was wearing a sweatshirt and heavy down vest to take a little of the hit. He had this cool little patch of skin with blood just trickling up in beads like it was leaking through a wet paper bag. You can't stall a 5HP 220 saw with a piece of 4/4, you have to use 10/4 for that I told him! He has yet to try that again, and now knows how to use my jointer.

I don't have a problem with Tom doing anything he's comfortable doing. He is not being paid to teach junior high school shop class, he is a professional carpenter building high end homes for money, has decades of experience, is fully qualified to determine what is safe for him. He's too old for a nanny. I hear the DIY network advertise the reruns of TOH as "The show that sparked the DIY revolution..." Stupidest statement I've ever heard. I grew up in a family that was in the trades, plumbers, electrical, carpentry, drywall, we had a few of each. to me TOH is about bringing a camera into a place most people never see, to see things most people never do, done by people that are some of the best at what they do. They get the latest tech, newest tools, innovations, products. And they completely modernize and old house, they give you the modern comforts but keep as possible the old beauty. And they are all pros. What about that show inspires people to think "Hey, if they can do that so can I!" ? Seriously, its insulting. Do you watch court TV then decide to represent yourself in court? Do you watch the medical channel then decide to give your cousin brain surgery, or yourself for that matter? Do you watch a space shuttle launch then go out to the garage to start working on a rocket? Carpentry and wood working may not be brain surgery or rocket science, but its a little more involved than you can pick up from watching a TV program. Do they ever let Kevin freehand on the TS? When they do you have something to complain about.

Funny side not, I own a pile of router bits and some odds and ends given to me by the friend who took the gut shot....he got them from a former employee's Dad, Dean of Cardiac Surgery at a regional hospital, gave up wood working after nicking his hand real good on a router table then having a near miss on the TS where his fingers nearly found blade. He had the good sense to walk away from something which could end his lucrative and highly trained career. Got rid of his tools and went back to golf! Working with power tools is inherently dangerous..........etc.

[Prashun Patel]

If u are going to teach someone, let alone the novices who might watch a tv show, then teach them the right way and the safe way. It has nothing to do with being pc. We are not talking about hurting someones feelings, but hurting someones fingers.

Many of u experienced guys probably forget what it was like to be a newbie. I dont. It is easy to underestimate the saw's speed and to underestimate the user's ability to control the situation.

If TOH is teaching a seminar to pros then they can be forgiven for shortcuts that take risks understood by all. But when teaching the masses under the guise of youcandoittoo, then the standard is higher.

[Chris Fournier]

If u are going to teach someone, let alone the novices who might watch a tv show, then teach them the right way and the safe way. It has nothing to do with being pc. We are not talking about hurting someones feelings, but hurting someones fingers.

Many of u experienced guys probably forget what it was like to be a newbie. I dont. It is easy to underestimate the saw's speed and to underestimate the user's ability to control the situation.

If TOH is teaching a seminar to pros then they can be forgiven for shortcuts that take risks understood by all. But when teaching the masses under the guise of youcandoittoo, then the standard is higher.

There is no short cut for pros vs newbies Prashun. The machine treats us all the same, it will maim pros and newbs alike. I find this post to be terribly misguided. Safe practise is safe practise regardless of your experience, machines mangle human tissue regardless of professional status. Experience does not make you immune from danger. Safety is all the time for everyone. Period.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I do free hand cutting myself. It takes alot of hand eye coordination. If you want to see some more skip ahead to the 4:50 and the 8:50 marks. It is an interesting video it shows some interesting ways of dealing with cupped and bowed/twisted boards..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQvURVFpqSI

English translation associated with these videos

http://kougeihin.jp/en/crafts/introduction/wood/2907?m=cu

[Justin Ludwig]

That ol' codger is one with his table saw. Looked like it was his first time free hand ripping. ;)

I free hand trim weird angle plywood cuts that won't fit on the bandsaw. Not so much anymore now that I have a Festool TS55, but I never attempted solid lumber as I know my limitations.

Hmmm, maybe I should start another anonymous club... "Freehand TS Cutters of America"

[Rod Sheridan]

Peter, I do agree with you that these shows feature professionals who have a great deal of experience that cannot be transferred to someone who simply watches the show.

I do not however agree that they should show any of these dangerous practices on the show simply because people who are watching will think that's how things are done, and get injured in the process.

As professionals, the people in the show need to act accordingly and make sure that they follow all the safety laws of the country, and generally accepted industry standards when demonstrating things for television.....Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

If u are going to teach someone, let alone the novices who might watch a tv show, then teach them the right way and the safe way. It has nothing to do with being pc. We are not talking about hurting someones feelings, but hurting someones fingers.

Many of u experienced guys probably forget what it was like to be a newbie. I dont. It is easy to underestimate the saw's speed and to underestimate the user's ability to control the situation.

If TOH is teaching a seminar to pros then they can be forgiven for shortcuts that take risks understood by all. But when teaching the masses under the guise of youcandoittoo, then the standard is higher.

Again this is the mistake people are making....they're NOT teaching you! I'm not picking on you specifically Prashun, it's the argument that many are making. They are showing you how they perform their job, not how you should do something! You can't learn to drive by watching Nascar! You can't learn to fly a plane by watching it on TV! This is the argument that drives me nuts as it just doesn't make any sense if you actually stop and think about it! I guess I should go into my garage and build a motorcycle since I saw them do it on American Chopper the other night right:confused: They "taught" me everything I need to know just by watching them on TV? If you want to watch a 'how to' then watch Norm on NYW, he'll give you a 1/2 hour of 'how to' that'll teach you something. If you want to see how professionals work to do a real remodel, (not the crap work DIY drowns you in), then watch TOH. If you want a show that "teaches" you how to remodel a home.....your out of luck as your not going to learn that by watching TV anymore than your going to learn how to drive or fly.

As far as lawsuits and safety all the time and all these other arguments....bunk! How many pro football and hockey players get career ending injuries every year? How many guys have died in Nascar or Formula 1 crashes? How many photographers and reporters have been killed while on the job? How may people participate in unsafe activities for the purpose of entertaining and/or informing us every single day of the year? Yet how many people get in an uproar over any of these? I'm not against safety devices or safe practice. I wear my seatbelt and have guards on most of my tools. I am however aware that not everything in life is safe, and it's ultimately up to the individual to protect themselves not to blindly do anything they see on TV:(

Anyway that's my opinion and I'm certainly not trying to offend anyone. I'm just tired of the big brother mentality of protecting those who aren't smart enough to protect themselves. Let's face it, not one person has come forward to say "hey I'm going to try that technique". No it's all about protecting the other guy who doesn't know any better. Well where are all these people who aren't smart enough to protect themselves anyway? Maybe they're not smart enough to post in forums either??? I for one don't need for you to protect me from myself. Please leave TOH alone for I enjoy it the way it is, and prefer not to get a watered down, edited for content, safe for the masses version, that will basically be as realistic as the $300 2 day remodels on DIY network:o

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Rod, my point was that each person assumes responsibility for his own actions, and must use their own intelligence in doing so. You may learn something from TOH, but I never saw that as the shows primary function. People should not be sheep. I've seen Richard install plenty of gas lines, never tried it my self. You can legally do your own gas work here, which to me is insane. But everyone knows gas can be dangerous. It is or should be obvious. Some how people are less afraid to use a table saw? They should be equally cautious. Football is broadcast on my TV nearly every week most of the year, I don't watch it, much too dangerous. Does anyone ever watch a football game then go out in the back yard and play full contact ball running head on into each other without training? Pros do lots of things non pros might be better off avoiding. I suppose the best practices arguement could be made but I don't see that it fully applies.

[Eric DeSilva]

Again this is the mistake people are making....they're NOT teaching you!

Honestly, I think you are making the mistake here, not Prashun. TOH was about showing people how to renovate homes and encouraging them to do it. It wasn't some window into watching a renovation. Look at the TOH website--there is "how to" and "DIY" all over it.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't remember the episode but I saw Norm make a free-hand cut on the TS once. He even announced "I'll do this freehand." I never saw him do it again so I'm guessing the safety police sent droves of emails condemning the method. I think it's similar to seeing an experienced carpenter hold a two-by-four across his knee and cut it with a circular saw. There's just some things that the inexperienced need to realize they shouldn't try. Like Dirty Harry said, "a man's got to know his limitations."
A woodworker friend of mine was an ER nurse. She would tell stories all the time about guys who came in cut across the thigh. Since she knew woodworking, she'd ask them if they were cutting across their knee, and with the guard wired back. Most of the time the answer was "Yes". She said she'd tell them, "That was pretty stupid, wasn't it?"

Mike

[Eric DeSilva]

I'll never disagree that people assume responsibility for their own actions, but TOH was a show that was encouraging people to take on renovation tasks--a major feature of their early shows was, in fact, homeowners contributing "sweat equity" to projects. As such, the people who are involved in production take on a role that is more than you would expect of a pro that shows up at your house. I don't think that any of the hosts or people involved would dispute that they are involved in education.

I think what is being missed here is that watching TOH doesn't relieve someone of the obligation to use their own judgment--both about whether to take on a task or how to operate machinery to perform a task. At the same time, however, by portraying certain projects as authorities on the subject matter, they should assume a responsibility to portray they jobs being done in a safe manner or--at a minimum--tell people that their experience allows them to perform a task in a manner that someone with lesser experience should not attempt.

[Michael W. Clark]

I may be completely missing the point of the show. I never thought of TOH as a show that instructed and informed the weekend warrior on how to use power tools or to become fluent in a particular trade. The show advocates preserving historical homes/buildings, new products available, and the quality of work you can expect from professional craftsmen and tradesmen. The homeowner involvement that I have seen has been more of a"helper" or "apprentice" role, not like you see on DIY TV. Homeowners and customers are instructed on maintenance and care of their property, how the structural/electrical/mechanical systems work, and the advantages of the products and systems being installed.

As far as doing things you see done on TV and assuming it is safe..I don't skydive, bungee jump, parasail, base jump, xtreme ski, wilderness survival, etc. just an boring average Joe here. You can certainly see these activities on TV. Sometimes they have a disclaimer, sometimes they don't. Any of these could result in an injury far worse than loosing a finger or suffering a kickback from a table saw.

I'm with the others that want the show left alone. In fact, I would like to see more shows that feature professional tradesmen. Not that I intend to emulate everything they do, but someone that earns their living in the trade and has been successful has a lot to offer a hobbyist like me. The WW shows you see on TV (Roy Underhill excluded) seem to be mostly for beginners and covered up with safety this, safety that, same old thing. There is very little for the person that is in between a beginner and accomplished woodworker. I would rather read magazines and watch shows that are above my skill level to give me something to aspire to.

Mike

[Eric DeSilva]

When I watched TOH, there were always segments clearly aimed to showing people what the trades were doing and specifically getting into the details of how and why those things were being done. We can quibble about whether the intent was to educate complete noobs about how to do something or to educate people on how old houses are constructed and renovated, but fundamentally the program was an educational program. If it is an educational program, there is an obligation--it seems to me--to show things being done right. There's a big difference between educational shows and pure entertainment in terms of mission.

[Prashun Patel]

Jeff, I respectfully disagree and appreciate the debate!!!

TOH and Tom Silva also made this tablesaw safety video.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/video/0,,20504307,00.html

It makes no mention of freehanding a cut being dangerous. I think it's reasonable to assume that a homeowner might watch this video, then see Tom cutting freehand, and then assume it is safe.

TOH and Ask TOH air on DIY type networks (among others). At least some of the viewership watches these networks primarily to be instructed. The producers of the shows know that.

I understand that the restoration part of TOH has a different tone. However, Tom often demonstrates on Ask TOH as well, where homeowners with little experience are employed as assistants. The tone of this show definitely much more instructional.

I think it's reasonable given all the above that many people think of Tom as a teacher and there is an implicit instructional tone in everything he does or demonstrates. Therefore, he has a responsibility (at least ethical..?) to do it safely - especially with something so basic and unnecessary as freehanding on the tsaw.

[Prashun Patel]

Chris, I re-read my post, and I think you are right. If a potentially unsafe shortcut is taken, I vote that the teacher should disclaim it.

[Jeff Duncan]

I also appreciate a good well thought out debate....(which is better than what you find on some other forums).....though I still disagree;)

I've been watching TOH for what must be well over 20 years now, well before anyone had any idea of a DIY channel, and I've never thought about it as a how to show. I wouldn't dream of running my own gas line, nor wiring my house myself, even though I've seen them do it on TOH. And if I were foolish enough to try, the town inspector would step in and remind me, (very politely I'm sure:eek:), of my foolishness for trying something I was not qualified to do. The Ask TOH segment is fairly new....to me anyway. It is a segment that is sold as a how to. The guys go to the house and take you step by step in a 'how to' format showing you how to perform the task yourself. A much different segment from the restorations they do....IMHO.

Lastly there are generally certain things we all might consider dangerous, I don't disagree with that. But for those claiming ethical, moral, or other even educational obligations....how would you define safe vs unsafe, and on what basis would you make your decisions? For example, I think using 3" or larger diameter bits in a router is inherently unsafe....though guys use them all the time? I think 90% of the stuff I do on my shaper is unsafe for a rookie, though it's safe enough for guys who've been trained and experienced using the shaper. I've heard several times guys claim making any kinds of plunge cuts on a table saw or shaper is unsafe....yet most guys in this trade do it all the time? Who gets to decide what's safe and what's not when your dealing with tools and environments that are inherently dangerous? Add to it the vast differences in experience and I don't think you can really oversimplify. Most of those replying to this thread seem to agree that the freehand cut is unsafe, yet Tom is comfortable doing it and has forgotten more things about the trade than I know. Or here's another one....another show, (of which I've forgotten the name), has a guy cutting shingles on a rather large and menacing bandsaw. He was pushing them through almost faster than I could see. I guess that could be considered a 'how to' as well, but I didn't go out and start cutting shingles on my bandsaw to see if I could do it! Further even though I know it's inherently unsafe for me to try it, I still want to be able to watch it! And forget about watching those guys drilling oil wells.....I can't even go there in a discussion about safety!

If you want every show to put a disclaimer on it that's fine by me. But I still want to be able to watch the show and see how these guys work. Doesn't mean I'm going to try it, I just want to see the truth....not the version deemed safe enough for me to watch, by someone probably not competent enough to make that decision in the first place:( I'm a big boy, I prefer to take responsibility for myself and leave others to do the same. There's nothing as aggravating as someone trying to make decisions for you about what you are smart enough, (or not), to watch.

I know I'm not going to change anyones mind here, we're all smart people with our own opinions. But hopefully you'll understand there's some of us who appreciate and prefer TOH the way it is, and give Tom the respect and slack he's earned and deserves;)

JeffD

[Eric DeSilva]

Lastly there are generally certain things we all might consider dangerous, I don't disagree with that. But for those claiming ethical, moral, or other even educational obligations....how would you define safe vs unsafe, and on what basis would you make your decisions?

How about just starting with practices that the manual would specifically define as unsafe? Pretty sure my TS manual says you should always cut with either the fence or the miter gauge. This doesn't strike me as rocket science--the reason you see a strong reaction here is because the practice is one that is nearly universally regarded as unsafe. We aren't debating something close to the edge.

[Art Mann]

Shows such as This Old House are inherently educational, whether they intend to be or not. Consequently, I think it is a bad idea to demonstrate a technique requiring a great deal of experience to an audience that includes neophytes who may assume the operation is routine and near risk free. At the very least, the demonstrator ought to outline the risks involved. Failure to do so is reckless in my book.

On the other hand, I would venture to say that most who say freehand sawing on a table saw is too risky for anyone have never made a living in the building trade. The practice is routine and commonplace. A few people get hurt. The vast majority just get the job done and move on to the next one. It is the same with any high risk job. Think of coal miners or high voltage linemen for example. I have done this type of work enough to know that there are a few situations where any other method is either more dangerous or is so inefficient as to be uncompetitive. I don't think anyone would do it if there is another alternative that is practical for the situation.

[Brian Tymchak]

Wow, my post generated a lot more feedback than I expected. I'd like to clarify that I harbor no ill will wrt Tom Silva, that I like the show and will continue watching it. The show is best-in-class and I hope it continues for a long time. Tom Silva is obviously a very skilled carpenter and I understand that his performing this technique holds far less risk of his personal injury than I would have if I were to do that technique. When I wrote the original post, I was trying to be more-or-less non-judgmental on the technique itself. However, I guess in the end I did manage to slip in 1 or 2 editorial comments. Oops..
My main concern was that in some way, given the IMHO ridiculous result of the Ryobi suit, that showing the same technique
at the base of the lawsuit could be somewhat of a risk to the show itself.


Peter Quinn, among several others, have raised an interesting point. The point being that just because a technique is shown on TV doesn't mean that everyone should do it. I can understand that position and, actually, I agree with it. Intuitively, I know not to do many things because I do not have the skills or experience, such as most electrical work. Why do I know that? Someone somewhere along the line told me the possible consequences of not knowing what I'm doing, either in person or on TV shows or via some other channel (personal experience). Actually, I think my 7th grade wood and metal shop instructors had a large influence my basic mindset. Boy, did they drill home (graphically) what could happen in the shop.


Also interesting is the question of whether the show is really educational or not, and, if it's not, should I know that and not watch it that way? I've never really thought about it from that perpective, but having spent a few minutes, I think any program, educational or not, fiction or non-fiction, can end up being a teaching moment (good or bad) for someone. So, in essence, I think everything published becomes educational.


Well, given the discussion, I think I can say that I don't have as hardline an opinion about whether the show should edit out anything as maybe I did when I first posted. But I still cringe when I think of that technique being shown. However, I Will keep on pondering the meaning of life...

[Keith Hankins]

Thanks for that vid. Shows we get caught up in tools sometimes. I'd love to spend a week with that dude.

[Larry Frank]

It is difficult for me to understand that someone would risk their hands because they do not think there is another practical alternative. If this is the case, then maybe it is time to stop for a moment and figure it out.

No, I did not make a living in carpentry

Yes, I worked in a much more dangerous profession making steel where we handled liquid steel at over 3000°F. We had ladles of the steel that weighed 125 tons. We always had people who wanted to short cut things and said that the safety precautions were not practical. People get used to these conditions and forget how really dangerous it is. Our rules were, if you could not do it safely, then you did not do it.

In my mind, there is no reason to freehand cut. It is dangerous. However, if you have to then you do it at your own risk and do not complain when you cut off a finger our damage your hand.

[Art Mann]

If I were to visit a foundry, there are a lot of jobs I would probably refuse to do because they appeared to me to be too dangerous. However, I would never be so bold or self righteous as to tell someone who works there that they are too dangerous or suggest he find some other way to do the job. I know finish carpenters who have worked in the trade for 30 or 40 years and have routinely used freehand table sawing among other "dangerous" practices and they haven't been injured yet. How long does it take to conclude that it is your lack of experience rather than their lack of judgement?

[Larry Frank]

I do not care how many times someone says it is safe for an "experienced person"...freehand cutting on a table saw is dangerous.

Good luck to you and I hope that you do not become a statistic.

[Sam Murdoch]

I do not care how many times someone says it is safe for an "experienced person"...freehand cutting on a table saw is dangerous.

Good luck to you and I hope that you do not become a statistic.

It's as simple as that!

[Sam Babbage]

Driving is inherently dangerous, that doesn't mean everyone should walk everywhere. (That's kinda funny coming from a professional woodworker that doesn't drive because he is afraid of hurting others but will happily use a spindle in "unsafe" manners because he is the only one at risk and can weigh the cost-benefit)

I've worked in "safety focused" workshops, I did my apprenticeship in one. I've worked in "unsafe" workshops, and you can, paradoxically, guess where the only accident I've seen happened. I know this is anecdotal, but individual skill and training trumps strict adherence to best practices.

Some things are best left to the individual's judgement, that said, purely instructional shows like Norm's should be much stricter than those like TOH.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say, in somewhat exaggerated terms, I think free handing a angle cut on 3mm mdf is far more comfortable than ripping 3" wild-grained timber even with a splitter/riving-knife.

[Art Mann]

Here is the deal. Telling someone that an operation they have done for 35 years without incident is too unsafe is exactly like walking up to a lineman climbing a utility pole and telling him he is eventually going to die of electrocution. It is either an insult or is laughable, depending on how you take it.

I am not advocating that anyone do any operation they feel is unsafe - for them. I agree that it is irresponsible for someone on a woodworking show to demonstrate such an operation without the strongest of warnings. I am just saying that the practice is routine in the construction and finish carpentry trades and you do not see or hear about an unusual amount of accidents as a result.