Do you use an awl to mark with???

[john davey]

Hi all, I am wondering if you use an awl for layout? I am having issues finding a marking knife I am comfortable with. I have tried the Veritas knives that were introduced a little while ago that sold for under $10. They work for me but I press really hard and am bending them. Most likely user error. I am currently using the Stanley knife that Paul Sellers recommends but again am not perfectly happy with it. I see that lee valley has some new Japanese awls for sale: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42935,42936,42951,70874&p=70874 and I started wondering if I would like them. I may just buy them and try them since damn near anything from them sells here for most of what you pay for it so I wont get killed for trying it. I am also considering the thicker Hock marking knife. There would be no bending that thing but it is a little spendy and I would need to fabricate a handle for it (not a big deal). So who likes an awl for marking? Thanks, John

[David Weaver]

Of all of the knives I've used, a heavy chip carving knife is my favorite for heavy marks.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001789/3961/Chip-Carving-Knife-Style-F.aspx

I don't like the way awls work that much on some woods.

LV might have a chip carving knife like that, too (and probably cheaper if they do). It is thin enough that the mark is accurate, but strong enough that you can mark really deeply. It's double bevel and really easy to sharpen, and though the double bevel might seem like it would cause probems in marking, the bevel is so fine that it might actually be an advantage because the knife doesn't walk up the endgrain on anything that you're using to mark to length (e.g., if you're marking a drawer length off of another drawer side, etc).

You can easily make that style of knife on your own if you want, also. Slab an old piece of sawblade between handles and epoxy or pein it and you'll have a strong knife that's easy to sharpen (and free). Ugly doesn't count for marking tools.

(just make sure if you do get a chip carving knife, that it's one that has the gradual fine bevel and not a big blunt double bevel. I have no idea what the different uses are for actual chip carving, but I wouldn't want to get those two mixed up as a thick double bevel blade would be problematic).

[Chris Griggs]

Same here. My chipcarving knife is now used more than my spear point Pfeill (though it still gets used)

This is mine: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001336/10281/Butz-Carving-Knives.aspx

Awls are really nice for starting screw holes and any kind of single point marking. I noticed those LV ones too, and like that they have the torefied maple handles so they can take mallet taps. I wish made a birdcage tip for them too though. That would be really great! Though I probably throw one in my cart regardless next time I place an order.

[Adam Cruea]

I use this one from Veritas, mainly because I'm too lazy to make one:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=60044&cat=1,42936

Never had an issue with it bending yet. I use my sharpening stones on it when it gets dull, too. Works wonderfully for me.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Keeping 'em sharp helps a lot for cross-grain work. The two knives I use are the striking knife that Adam linked to, and a smaller knife from Chester Toolworks (our very own moderator David Anderson) which I love.

The immediate thought to me is that if you're bending the blade, you may just be going to hard. There's a natural limit to how deep any line can go, of course, and a heavier knife would probably allow a heavier line in the end, but I'd rather take a couple light passes, firming up a little each pass, than try and press real hard for one pass. I get a better line with less wandering that way.

Still trying to find something that works well for oak along the grain, however. I'm not a big fan of oak anyway, so it's not a huge deal to me though.

[Bruce Haugen]

I use two, one of which is a chip carving knife much like those previously mentioned, and the other is one I made, which is similar to the one Pat Leach sells (http://www.supertool.com/layknife.htm).

i forgot to add that my first good one was the result of a group build on the Oldtools list, which Paddy O dubbed "The Shiv," and was based on a blade supplied by Ron Hock.
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Scales were provided by the builder (I chose padauk, riveted on). It is not skinny nor flexible, being about 3/32" thick. But it is heat treated to about 58 RC or so, takes a really good edge and doesn't roll off the bench. It serves as far more than a marking knife.

[Jim Koepke]

One solution would be to make your own.

My two knives that get used are both shop made.

My first "real" marking knife was made from an old plane blade. The blade was cut with a dremel and a cutoff wheel.

268847

The knife at the top was made from an old kitchen knife that was broken. It never worked real well due to the geometry and the double bevel. The bottom blade was made from a plane blade that was in pretty bad shape. The bare metal wasn't real comfortable so a handle was added:

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Now it gets a lot of use.

The second one is made from an old saw blade:

268848

The handle was turned. The ferrel came from a Parker fitting store in town. It is great for marking in tight places but does have a tendency to flex if pushed hard.

As for an awl, sometimes when nothing else is handy mine is used for rough marking. If one was going to be used all the time my tendency would be to grind the tip to my liking with one side flat and the other side beveled.

When making your own, if you don't like it, you can fix it.

jtk

[Hilton Ralphs]

This knife (http://www.leevalley.com/US/gifts/page.aspx?p=58313&cat=4,104,53212,58313)from Lee Valley is so inexpensive it's worth trying.

[Lloyd Robins]

Of course there is the Blue Spruce marking knife that many people love, or the older striking knife which would give you both a knife and something close to an awl point (I have never used one. The point on the back worries me, but Chris Schwarz seems to like his.) I have tried an awl for marking, but I did not really like it (skipping and visibility) Also, as a thought, did you sharpen the Stanley (Sellers) knife?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi John

I have the LV knives you are referring to and do not experience your difficulty. I also have built many similar knives over the years, and a line line this is now produced by Chris Vesper. Dave Anderson's Chester Tools and Dave Jeske's knives are all quite similar. While they are designed for detail marking, such as dovetails, they can create quite deep lines. The way to do this is progressively - not all in one go. You score lightly to begin, then again, and again. This is not only going to allow a blade that does not bend, but it enables much more control when you do it this way.

Failing this, you may benefit from one of the knife blades sold by Hock. This are thicker. But not for dovetails.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

I use two, one of which is a chip carving knife much like those previously mentioned, and the other is one I made, which is similar to the one Pat Leach sells (http://www.supertool.com/layknife.htm).

i forgot to add that my first good one was the result of a group build on the Oldtools list, which Paddy O dubbed "The Shiv," and was based on a blade supplied by Ron Hock.
268854

Scales were provided by the builder (I chose padauk, riveted on). It is not skinny nor flexible, being about 3/32" thick. But it is heat treated to about 58 RC or so, takes a really good edge and doesn't roll off the bench. It serves as far more than a marking knife.

I have "the shiv", too. Don't know where I went, but it's a likeable tool for anything except delicate dovetails. I rounded the end of mine off a little - not much, just a little - makes it less snaggy.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I seem to have the best luck with an "Exacto" type knife I bought from Tools for Working Wood (can't remember the brand name at TFWW!). Blades are replaceable and are available as single or double bevel (one or both sides).

[Gary Muto]

My favorite knife.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020498/22631/pfeil-Swiss-Made--Marking-Knife-Large.aspx
I'm so used to it, I find it hard to use any other knife. I have the smaller one too but it isn't used as much.

[Hilton Ralphs]

My favorite knife.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020498/22631/pfeil-Swiss-Made--Marking-Knife-Large.aspx

I have one of those but I dropped it the day I bought it and of course it landed tip down. :mad:

[steven c newman]

I do indeed have a "scratch awl". Use it mainly to start screws with. Do have a marking guage, though. Basicly an all wood one with a sharpened nail as the cutter. Thinking about make a knife, have an old lathe chisel, a parting tool that has been replaced by a newer one. Might try some grinding on it......

[Tony Zaffuto]

The knife I referred to in an earlier post is named "Zona" and appears very close to an "Exacto" brand, and in fact, on Amazon, it is noted that "Exacto" brand blades fir the "Zona" knives. Dirt cheap for the knife and replacement blades. The knives are very thin and flexible, allowing for marking out both sides of dovetails. I've had mine (actually two) for several years and I'm still on the original blades, though I have replacements at hand (I have to note that I hone the blades occasionally).

[David Weaver]

Zona's got a bunch of useful duds, though some of them are a bit weak (some of their little saws are pretty soft and the plates will come out of the backs, but they're so cheap that it's hard to criticize).

My favorite fretsaw is a zona type that side clamps the blade and looks like the old german jewelers saws. It's my favorite because I feel like I can beat it without worrying about whether or not it breaks, and thus far, it's worked fabulously.

[Tony Zaffuto]

LV sells a couple of the small Zona "gent type" saws (IIRC it is LV!). I have the larger of the two and it is a gem! Just the ticket for small stock and dirt cheap also.

[David Weaver]

I think that the large one is the 35-350 or 35-380 or something. I remember trying to get it and I could only get the pull saw and it wasn't quite as good. Certainly is a good starter for someone on a budget, though, and you could probably file a zona gents saw 50 times with one file because they're a little soft (which isn't a bad thing on a saw like that).

[john davey]

Thanks for all of the replies. So where do I start. I do start with a soft line and then move on to firmer and firmer with the last one being the one that is most likely to hard and bending the blade. This only happens when I an scribing for a cross cut or dado or something. Where I chisel the waste side to get a little troth for the saw. I guess I go overboard getting the troth as deep as I cam. I am still learning dovetails and the veritas knife I have will work for them. So it seems the awl is not used much. I do have a birdcage awl for starting brace bits and such so I guess I do not need this set. I already have the inexpensive knife Hilton mentioned in my shopping cart at Lee valley next to the awls that I will most likely not get. I guess I will try the Hock at some point as it will take my overdoing the lines for cross cuts I am sure. Thanks again for all of the replies...John

[Roger Nair]

My experience differs from the fine woodworking of the readers here, however, as a pro timber framer working mostly in green oak, my primary layout is marked with awl and awl pointed gauges. Basically, I start with tapes marked up as storypoles that are quick clamped to the timber then my framing square is registered to each layout mark and an awl strikes the cut line fairly deeply with three strokes or so. I use common awls from General Hardware that are conically sharpened and polished to a fine long tapered point. I have found that awls strike lines more consistantly than knives since a knife has more of a tendency to steer away from the square. The awls mark is also somewhat more like a narrow trench. So the layout continues end to end. Marks parallel to the edge are then cut with a gauge. Layout is checked and then inked with old fashioned draftsman ruling pen, that places the ink in the trenched line very neatly freehand. After inking I markup with chalk, keel or sharpies. No pencils are monkeyed with.

I think that cutting layout has produced a more focused and committed layout with less tendency towards error.

[Michael Ray Smith]

I use an awl that I picked up somewhere and the Pfeil marking knife that I bought at Woodcraft. An awl tends to wander if you're marking with the grain. Works fine cross-grain. I like the flat side and two edges of the Pfeils. Come to think of it, I have both the large Pfeil and the small Pfeil. Not sure how I ended up with both. I have a couple of Mora sloyd knives that I use for various things, but not usually for marking.

[Scott Vanzo]

Do I use an awl for layout? No. They do not seem precise enough in most situations.

Most marking knives seem too dainty for my larger hands. I prefer to use a Murphy knife. Can be held like a carton knife or a pencil. I tilt the blade when marking to compensate for the bevel. You can buy one new for too much money, or find one at a Tool swap for like $5. Takes a keen edge.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/9559898848_fcb7c46073_z.jpg

[lowell holmes]

Paul Sellers was the master woodworker in the classes I took at Waco. He had us using box cutters.
You have to hold the knife in such a postion that one bevel is vertical. It gives you a pronounced knife wall
to work against.

I either use a box cutter or one of the LV knives.