Shop Made Kenyon Sash Saw Redux (critiques welcome)

[Chris Griggs]

Last fall I made a couple saws from parts I got from Wenzloff. The first I made was a 14" sash saw (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?192686-A-Kenyon-Seaton-Style-Sash-Saw-I-Made) and the 2nd was a dovetail saw. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?194414-A-Kenyon-Style-Dovetail-Saw-I-Made) Both were made using some of Wenzloffs Kenyon saw handle patterns. The dovetail saw came out very nice but I was never all that happy with the sash. The shaping came out pretty well, but the mortise for the spine was a bit sloppy and the piece of wood I choose didn't end up looking all that nice. I had chosen a piece of would with some flaws (worm wholes) that I thought would mostly plane out and with some weird color variations that I thought would look cool, but after reflecting on some good feedback I got I decided that something made from a nice clear piece of wood would look nicer.

So I finally got around to redoing that saw this weekend, and since I was taking the saw apart anyway I used it as an opportunity to tweak several things.

1) I decided to taper the spine some. I unseated the plate and filed an approximately 1/8" taper down the length of the spine. I was actually going to do a slightly more dramatic taper but grinding all the brass was really tiring so I decided 1/8 was good enough.

2) When I reseated the plate after working the spine I reseated less deeply than I originally had. First time around I had seated the plate until it bottomed out in the spine but later found out that that wasn't necessary so this time I seated it about 3/8" less then the full depth giving my saw a touch of extra depth.

3) Wenzlof has a couple different series of Kenyon saw patterns, the one modeled after the Seaten chest saws and the ones modeled after what I believe are older examples of Kenyon made saws. The first time around I used the Seaton pattern which is a pretty typical British saw pattern with a pretty standard hang. This time I decided to give the old school "early kenyon" pattern a try. This is the one with the particularly round cheeks and a very very low hang. Not quite as old school as saws modeled after the White Backsaw, but somewhat similar in style.

4) I ordered a new pair of Gramercy Split nuts for the remake as I had mangled the slots on the original ones I used.

So here is the result (link to the original version is in first paragraph)

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I think the sculpting came out nice and the clear piece of walnut is a big improvement over the previous wood used. Its amazing how much easier it was now that I've done it a couples times before. Handle is finished with BLO, then pore filled with wet sanded shellac, toped with a thin layer of padded on shellac and then rubbed out with wax and steel wool. The teeth are filed for a hybrid cut with 10 degrees rake, 10 degrees fleam, and 10 degrees of slope. The low handle is very comfortable, but the low hang will definitely take some getting used to. I just feels so different right now, but I think I will like it once I get used to it. I'm not sure if I'll come to prefer it over a standard hang saw, but I really wanted to try it, and as weird as it feels its by no means bad, just very different...we'll see how it goes.

Questions and criticism are welcome.

[Peter Pedisich]

Chris,
I do like the new handle better - I guess because the wood grain & color take a back seat to the design - and I like dark handles on saws with brass backs. Really, really like the subtle taper. Nice bench, too.
-Pete

[David Weaver]

I used that handle pattern on my first saw (i rounded that saw handle all over the place, that was before george was here to tell us what's sculptural, and he's exactly dead right about every single thing that needed improvement on mine.

Anyway, I think I used that pattern on my second one, too, but I'm not sure. It works well on a crosscut saw at 14", and that one should crosscut well, maybe nicer than it rips. Just a guess, though.

My big saw that had that pattern was one of mike's 16" plates with a heavier back than that and a plate just a hair deeper, and I have it set pretty aggressive pure rip - it cuts like mad hades.

Tapering the brass is a pain!! on the first two saws I got, mike was sending out finished backs that were tapered, that had no cracking in them (like the kit backs do from not being annealed, I guess) and they were stamped, too. Tapering the brass on the last one (that wasn't finished) was a PITA of the first degree. No good place to get a hold of it and everything you clamp the back in gets in the way of the taper. If you power grind it, then it gets hot and it's a challenge to do neatly freehand.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Pete! I love walnut tool handles....well i just love walnut.

David, yes I used a combination of power grinding and filings. Both were a pain. I think the power grinding did help remove some of the bulk a little faster, but there was still lots of filing to true it up. Its amazing how much heat a big chunk of brass like that can hold. It didn't heat up right away but once it got hot it stayed hot. I ended up doing it in short spirts and than would leave it on the cold concrete floor to act as a heat sink.

The filing really does rip very well..somewhat suprisingly. I had been using this filing previously before I redid then handle and have been very happy with both the ripping and crosscutting. I've messed with a couple renditions of the hybrid filing and the 10-10-10 seems to work the best. As far as the hang goes, what little I played with it, it seems ideally suited for sawing tenon cheeks, because you tilt the work piece and then just sort saw straight. For cross cutting the hang is nice for starting the cut since the toes automatically tips forward, but finishing the cut is requires you to drop down your body and arm a little more to bring the cut fulling across the work piece. I like it though. I think if I made a relly large tenon saw i would use a low hang handle again, I really do quite like it for sawing cheeks, but if I were to make more dedicated crosscut I would probably use typical hang handle.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Chris:

Very nicely done!

I do like walnut, and one of these days have to round up the necessary bits and make a saw - too many other things on my plate for a while yet though.

I picked up ( this weekend ) some curly, quartered Madrone, actually enough to make at least 30 handles- not to hijack your thread, but has anyone used / tried Madrone for saw handles?? I would think it is a nice candidate.

Again, well executed my friend.

Dave B

[Jim Koepke]

My only criticism is that your camera is clearly not doing justice to your work.

I will be interested to know how you feel about the hang angle after a few projects. Also how it seems to work best for usage.

Like plane totes, saw handles have a lot of influence on how we go about using our tools.

Different hangs have different effects in different situations. Sawing at a saw bench a low hang seems to work fine.

May be a relationship of the shoulder position to tooth line formula could be derived. Then again, other human factors might have to be included.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

Dave B, Thanks! High jack away...always interested in hearing about different species used for handles.

Thanks Jim, I know I do terrible with pictures of my work (every time I post pics). Still haven't replaced our camera since ours got stolen...I'll try to get some better shots. My cell camera can actually do aright if I make an effort to get put stuff under decent lighting. Actually, we might have another older digital camera around somewhere that I should dig out, I'm sure it would do better than a cell. I will followup with my feelings about the hang when I do some projects with it.

[Chris Griggs]

Okay, dug out the old camera. Not fantastic pics still, but far better than the cell phone photos taken in my not nearly bright enough lit shop.

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[Jim Koepke]

Those pictures are much better.

The challenge of taking pictures in our shops is likely a common one. Even using a tripod or flash can leave one with poor results.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

Thank Jim! Of course, there is one benefit to crappy pictures. They hide the mistakes and make us look like better woodworkers than we actually are :).

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Man Chris, that's a terriffic job! The handle you've built is on of the best I've seen for a long time. Very impressing.

Take care
Klaus

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Klaus! The feedback you gave me on the first version last fall was very helpful in getting this one to turn out that much better.

[Tony Shea]

I agree, very well done Chris. I like the crispness of your lines a bit better than your first handle. You can tell you really took your time and payed attention to the details. No sense to rush and bang out a lap desk every weekend. Like you, I consider myself a slow and meticulous woodworker which is fine by me.

I'm not so sure I like this design over your last handle though due to the hang angle I guess. But I have zero basis for how the saw would feel and function. I also would've probably done the other design the second time around just to try something different. You certainly nailed the design and I'd really like to try it out to see what a difference it makes in use. I would also really like to try out this hybrid sharpening I've read and heard about so much. Is it really that nice opposed to just having dedicated saws for each function?

I'm glad Jim spoke up about your original picture quality, the lighting was rough. Much better the second time around. I get the same awful yellow in my pictures if I take them in the shop. My lights really aren't as yellow as they show up in pics though.

I wish like heck that Wenzloff kits weren't so hard to get a hold of, you make this project really look like fun. I don't have it in me to make all the parts from scratch as some do on here.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Tony. Yeah these old English designs and the low hang definitely odd compared to what we are used to. The the more upswept tote on the Seaton chest handle as well as most modern handles is definitely pleasing to the eye. I had a chance to use it a bit more tonight and I'm getting used to the hang pretty quickly. I wouldn't say I like it better or worse than the higher hang saws that I'm used to, but now that I've gotten used to the hang it is definitely a very comfortable design (the fact that it is custom shaped for me doesn't hurt either :-).

Far as a hybrid cuts goes. Its suprising how little of each function you loose IF you do it right. Yes it rips a little slower and cross cuts a little less smoothly, but if you do it right the difference is negligible (to the point of being totally unnoticeable) in the North American hardwoods I work. I wouldn't say its better than dedicated saws but I do find it very nice to have one saw that I can leave at my bench that can do 90% of what I need to do...with another 5% being covered by the dovetail saw and the last 5% being either very fine crosscuts (my dozuki does those) or really big tenons (which I pretty much never do). The one thing I did notice with a hybrid filing is that you need to do an especially good job with filing and setting since you are already deliberately adding some sacrifice to the cuts...I had overset my saw a little when I first did it and really wasn't happy with it...it was sorta like the the hybrid filing and the slight oversetting had a multiplicative impact. As soon I went back and stoned and jointed out the set, reset it very very lightly and re-filed it, it has worked extremely well on both rips and crosscuts. I use if for the vast majority of cuts I make. Give it a try on one of your saws, something in the 12-13 ppi range and see what you think. 10 fleam and 10 rake is good place to start. If you don't like it its easy enough to file out.

I hear you on the Wenzloff kits. If he ever starts selling folded backs again I'm going to snap up enough to make every saw I would ever possible want,