Dovetail jigs/machines: Cool tool or blasphemy?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I actually have often thought of getting a dovetail jig, but hand dovetails are just- well- just the way dovetails should be. Cutting one with a machine is a sin, isn't it? Before Moses broke the stone tablets, wasn't there an 11th commandment, "Thou shalt not make dovetails by machine?"

My grandfather built amazing furniture in a small home shop. His work still remains perfect as the day it was made 50+ years ago- a testament to the quality of his work. He did lots of hand work and hand carving, and used hand-cut dovetails.... Or so I thought. One day, while going through my deceased grandfather's tools many years ago, I found this funny-looking tool. It was two boards perpendicularly mounted with these strange finger protrusions. Not sure what it was, I kept it simply because it was his, and also one day maybe I would figure out what it was and actually have a use for it. Many years later, now an accomplished woodworker, I contemplated getting a dovetail jig, but hate the blasphemy of such a tool. Suddenly it dawned on me- that thing I had found in grandpa's stuff was a dovetail jig!!!! OH MY GOSH! Grandpa had broken the 11th commandment! I was crushed. What else did he do in secrecy? A routed flute? A machined dado? (Huge gasp) BISCUIT JOINERY????

I always dreamed of meeting grandpa in heaven and making furniture together. Now I don't know- did grandpa go to hell for this?

Okay folks, I am being intentionally silly here, but my true reason for the post is to pose a question: Machine-made dovetails: love 'em or hate 'em? ***Not for production shops, but for home stuff just for you. Religious remarks made here are solely out of poetic license. We all know that you don't really go to hell for not making dovetails by hand- you go there for throwing away perfectly good offcuts. Thank goodness grandpa died with enough offcuts to fill an entire attic. Please stick to the question of dovetails by hand or machine. Also are we becoming too reliant on machines and losing the art of woodworking in the process?

I am 90 percent "neander" and always feel a little devious when I pull out the router, although I do admit to the occasional routed edge. In all fairness, I post this because I have admittedly coveted a dovetail jig for projects where time is of the essence, but I just never could bring myself to get one, as I felt I was putting speed ahead of the enjoyment of the craft itself. More importantly, hand dovetails are like a woodworker's signature. Putting a routed dovetail would be (to me) like Rembrandt using a rubber stamp to sign his painting.

That said, I use a table saw and a thickness planer, so label me a hypocrite, but there has to be a line. Is a dovetail jig the line? Is that the point where you turn in your Lie-Nielsen or Veritas card and just go full-on power?

Buy a jig and get over it, or keep the faith? Please chime in.

[Gordon Eyre]

After fixing several non-dovetail drawers for my neighbor after they came apart I am of the opinion that any dovetail is a good one. May the angels smile down on you no matter how you cut them.

[Prashun Patel]

I bet the romans and egyptians would haave killed for a router. And electricity.

I suspect many might think us silly to eschew technological advances.

A century from now, will you think any less of our descendants who work with perfect dust collection, finishes that have no harmful or flammable solvents, or work with renewable lumber?

IMHO, everything has its place; our job as craftsmen, engineers, honeydolisters, and artists is to understand them and use what's right and appropriate.

[Paul Wunder]

I would recommend discussing this problem with a trusted religious adviser.

[Jerry Miner]

I think it comes down to what the goal is. Some people emphasize the process, others emphasize the results. For me, the results are what matters. Sure, all woodworking can be done by hand: sawing, planing, jointing, etc., but why make it harder than it needs to be (unless the process is your goal)?

A mortise made with a mortiser is just as good as one made by hand. (And if I'm billing for my time---which I am---why would I plane to thickness by hand? I'm trying to provide good value to my clients, so if I can produce the same results with a faster, easier machine-process, that's what I'll do. If it takes hand work to produce the right results (or greater efficiency) then that's what I'll use.

Same with dovetails. Machine-cut dovetails are just as strong as those made by hand. But if you love the process--or the look (hand-cut generally look different than machine-cut)--then hand-cut are appropriate. There is no sin in using power tools or machine processes.

The "old masters" had apprentices. We have power tools.

[Jay Rasmussen]

For me it’s a question of time, I hope someday to actually be able to have the time to hand cut dovetails but today I’m going with my Leigh jig.

I would rather have my meager shop time spent doing more projects than hand doing just about anything.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

All good responses. I do agree that the time saved can mean more projects. Personally I love sawing dovetails, but I also like to have time for more projects. For me the sawing and chiseling is relaxing. The thing that would make me consider a jig would be putting dovetails where I might not have put them before. Take, for instance, a wood storage box or maybe dovetail an unseen joint in the back of a piece of furniture that would have been screwed and glued.

Any purists out there want to comment? I didn't post in the neander forum because I figure the responses would be obvious.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I use a router and jig....and yet.....I have a future project during which I plan on doing some by hand just for the experience of doing them manually.

There is no right or wrong...it's subjective...a matter of personal taste or opinion.

[Andrew Gibson]

As long as the result is of appropriate quality, then the means of production is of little concern... I have entered in some local furniture competitions including the state fair, and I typically feel that my hand cuts are superior to the machine cut dovetails that others enter, but their joints are just as strong and durable as mine... I simply prefer the look of my own handy work and the no rules approach that hand cutting allows. Now that being said. The skills gained when projects are built without relying on electricity are without equal. The ability to shape, and form with chisels, rasps, planes, and scrapers allow one to build and think in a new way without the restraints of fences and jigs. Simply pick up the finely sharpened tool and quietly go to work.

[Roy Harding]

I do both - and it's a matter of time.

I make small boxes - when I have only a couple to do, I do it by hand. When I'm doing a "production run" of 5 or more (which is more usual), I use my jig and router. It's all a matter of time. I can cut two or three boxes worth of dovetails by hand faster than I can set the jig up perfectly. Once we get into "production mode" of multiple copies, however - the jig wins hands down.

Functionally, the joints are the same - and even aesthetically (with the exception of REALLY, REALLY, REALLY narrow pins - those have to be done by hand). I use the Leigh D4R Pro jig - which allows for irregular spacing of your dovetails (and thus alleviates the most common complaint regarding jig-cut dovetails).

Over the years I've also used a bandsaw to cut the tails, a table saw jig, and probably a couple of other methods that I don't recall at the moment. It's ALWAYS been a matter of time spent versus quality achieved.

I like what Jerry Miner said above about having power tools instead of apprentices.

[Dave Cav]

My great grandfather, Gus Arnold, was a professional furniture maker in PA back in the day. He did most of his work for one furniture store in Lebanon. He died long before I ever meet him, but the family still has a number of pieces he made. I have examined some of the dovetailed drawers he made, and they were only what you would consider average, and some of them have obvious repairs and shims to tighten them up. I think he would have been all over a router and jig.

Myself, I have never made a good piece of furniture with hand cut dovetails. All the DTs I have cut by hand have been mediocre at best, and I'm too lazy/busy/uninterested in taking the time to practice getting better (and that statement will probably get me thrown out of the Neander forum). However, I DO have both Keller and Leigh jigs, and know how to use them...

[Mike Cutler]

True heretic here.
I don't like the visual effect of exposed joinery unless it truly lends to the design, or period authenticity. I can admire the skill required to hand cut them, but at the end of the day, I don't want to see them unless I open the drawer. I have 10 drawers to make soon, in fact I was prepping drawer stock today, and the dovetails will be done on a jig.

Like Dave, please don't kick me out of the club.:eek:

[jack forsberg]

Not all dovetail machines/jigs are the same and the Brookman AKA "The British Bull Dog" is one that made a lot of furniture. This machine was design in the 20s and made will in to the 90s when it last sold for $25000. CNC is what does it now. I had been looking for one for years and picked up a 15 Pin machine , cleaned it up a little
plugged her in and fired her up .

she cut a set of dovetails almost perfect the first time , just a little adjusting to do
it takes about 5 seconds to cut a set of joints. This Brookman is a 15 spindle( they made 9 and 25 pin too) machine with all the bearing running a massive oil bath. The thing will run for ever and has 5 HP to do it. Bits can be pricey but i got 8 sets(15 to a set)on E bay that will last a life time. Takes about 30 sec to do a drawer box with one hand.

when you have a machine like this you dovetail everything for tool boxes to drawers. are they hand cut no but try that in Baltic.

here are some pictures of me unloading it
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/unload.jpg

just about to hit the floor all 1200lbs
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/landingjpg.jpg

after a blow out of dust , and checking the starters wiring/cleaning contacts
checking the oil, oiling all port
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/landright.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/landleft.jpg

just through some Baltic plywood in her to see what she could do.

that's my buddy holding the first cut
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/brook007-1.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/firstcutcloseupjpg.jpg
and that's his blood too.those cutter are sharp. Are hand cut nicer yes but i got to many to do and i don't need to do them all if i have help. The brookman is a joy let me tell you .


jack
English machines

[Paul McGaha]

I would recommend discussing this problem with a trusted religious adviser.

Too funny Paul.

PHM

[Frederick Skelly]

Man, thats some machine Jack. Congratulations on finding her!
Fred

[Sam Murdoch]

Machine cut or hand cut - that's the question :confused:. My feeling theses days is that if you are hanging a drawer box on souped up ball bearing side mount slides or the Blum Tandem types, dovetails are an affectation - practically any kind of connecting the parts will do. There I said it :rolleyes:.

Otherwise - I like the look and the process of handcut but I envy those guys who have the tools to mass produce - often would come in handy.
jack forsberg (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?108727-jack-forsberg) is my hero in this thread :D.

[Mike Henderson]

If you're making heirloom furniture, then do the dovetails by hand. People will be looking at them long after you're dead and will appreciate that the furniture was "hand made".

If you're making kitchen cabinets, which have a lifespan of maybe 20 years, feel free to make them with a jig. It would take too long to make them by hand and no one would appreciate it anyway.

Mike

[paul cottingham]

Quite the piece of kit, Jack. Congratulations!

[Rick Fisher]

There are lots of applications for a really strong 90 degree corner, which isn't heirloom..

A dovetail joint is a really great joint. A tool that makes one really fast is IMO simply a tool offering a better solution..

Heirloom drawers are a separate discussion..

[Chris Hachet]

After fixing several non-dovetail drawers for my neighbor after they came apart I am of the opinion that any dovetail is a good one. May the angels smile down on you no matter how you cut them.I think it depends on what your trying to fix...appropriate dovetails for modern kitchen cabinetry, modern furniture like I repair for the University I work for, shop furniture etc....machine cut. For period furniture, stuff I build for myself, etc...hand cut methinks. Although period style furniture can be fine with machine cut dovetails, and I've known people to hand cut dovetails with modern laminate style furniture. Methinks in a hundred years or so, furniture historians may have some fun figuring out a few pieces.....

[Chris Hachet]

I think it comes down to what the goal is. Some people emphasize the process, others emphasize the results. For me, the results are what matters. Sure, all woodworking can be done by hand: sawing, planing, jointing, etc., but why make it harder than it needs to be (unless the process is your goal)?

A mortise made with a mortiser is just as good as one made by hand. (And if I'm billing for my time---which I am---why would I plane to thickness by hand? I'm trying to provide good value to my clients, so if I can produce the same results with a faster, easier machine-process, that's what I'll do. If it takes hand work to produce the right results (or greater efficiency) then that's what I'll use.

Same with dovetails. Machine-cut dovetails are just as strong as those made by hand. But if you love the process--or the look (hand-cut generally look different than machine-cut)--then hand-cut are appropriate. There is no sin in using power tools or machine processes.

The "old masters" had apprentices. We have power tools.I like this way of thinking. Dovetails can be over rated and over used as a decorative device also....and I've never repaired a period piece...and I've repaired a bunch...that had perfect hand cut dovetails. Guys cutting them by hand in the good ole days were paid by the hour, and working 60 plus hours a week. They for the most part were not being fussy....

[Rod Sheridan]

My FIL had a traditional English apprenticeship just after the war, and he of course cuts dovetails by hand, with very little marking.

They fit extremely well, and he says that after your first few thousand, you get pretty good at it.

I don't use machine cut dovetails, not because I don't believe in machine cut joints, I just don't like machine made dovetails.

For machine made joints I like drawer joints or finger joints.

I make dovetails by hand, and mine are nowhere near perfect, however they look more "fine furniture" in my opinion than perfect machine made dovetails.

Regards, Rod.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Exactly Rod- it is like using a typewriter versus hand-writing. The handwriting may be less legible, but it has more character.

For the record, I am not knocking machine made dovetails per se; I just have not yet embraced the technology fully. I am okay with it in production but always feel like I am cheating with one-offs. This is mostly just something engrained in me that dovetails are a handmade item. I just wondered if I am alone here.

I regret that I cannot for the life of me find grandpa's dovetail jig. I think it was lost in a move. I have no access to one to try out.

[dan sherman]

for me it's a question of time and the materials in question. If i need to make several of the same piece, then i use a jig, If I'm working with a really hard wood then I use a jig. This is a drawer from my current project. the front is Jatoba, everything else is hard maple. No way was I making half blind dovetails by hand in Jatoba, I love the wood but it's brutal on hand tools, it's brutal on all tools for that matter.

268868

[jack forsberg]

While i can see that most think the dovetail machine to be the quick and dirty method that reveals itself with fat even spaced pins and modern. The hand group thinks that hand cut dovetail to be the old best way to cut thin pins attractive joints need to only dig a bit deeper into history, I can assure you that dovetailing machines have been around longer than your grandfather.

this English Robinson dovetailer is in there 1873 catalog and can make any joint that could be cut by hand multiple times.


http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2685/4196.pdf

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/robinson_zps931bd937.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/robinson_zps931bd937.jpg.html)

jack
English machines

[Dave Zellers]

Pics from my kitchen in progress. I know there are folks here who can achieve this by hand, but I ain't one of them. These were done with the new(ish) Porter Cable OmniJig dovetail jig (16" in my case) that has perplexed so many since it was introduced. Myself included. But I refused to succumb and after hours of trial and error, I declared war and set aside 3 days (if needed) to wrestle this thing to the ground until it cried uncle. After the first day, I knew I had won. The problem is, it is an engineering marvel but a manufacturing disappointment. I would love to meet the guy who designed this- he's brilliant. The problem is, the user has to over come the manufacturing deficiencies. Once you understand how it was designed to work, the light goes off. (or on?)

The preceding kitchen vs heirloom discussion is spot on but this IS a kitchen and as I said, I know I can't achieve this kind of perfection without the jig and router(s).

Cherry front and white ash sides and back. Note the telltale Blum Tandem notch and hole at the back. Even tho the cherry front is 7/8" and the ash back is 3/4" they were done with the same setup, the only difference being a 1/8" difference in the half blind dovetail remainder of the stock thickness. Easy.

My chance of achieving this level of perfection by hand is less than zero. Put me in the jig camp, happily.



268897268898268899268900268901

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree completely Dave, I would use a jig for those drawers, which look very nice..................Rod.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Okay, I would use a jig for Dave's project too. That would be a lot of dovetails. I'm warming up to the idea of getting a fancy adjustable jig. For the time being I can't justify it for the number of times I would use it. If I ever did a kitchen then yes- I would get a jig. Please don't tell anybody. :-)

[Dave Zellers]

Yeah- it will be 20 drawers when it's done. Phase 1 is these 6 big ones (2 each of pic 3) and phase 2 will be 14 more normal sized ones.

Dovetailpalooza.

[Chris Hachet]

My FIL had a traditional English apprenticeship just after the war, and he of course cuts dovetails by hand, with very little marking.

They fit extremely well, and he says that after your first few thousand, you get pretty good at it.

I don't use machine cut dovetails, not because I don't believe in machine cut joints, I just don't like machine made dovetails.

For machine made joints I like drawer joints or finger joints.

I make dovetails by hand, and mine are nowhere near perfect, however they look more "fine furniture" in my opinion than perfect machine made dovetails.

Regards, Rod.One of the regrets of my life is that I have not cut a few thousand dovetails....but that is going to change, methinks.

[Chris Hachet]

Pics from my kitchen in progress. I know there are folks here who can achieve this by hand, but I ain't one of them. These were done with the new(ish) Porter Cable OmniJig dovetail jig (16" in my case) that has perplexed so many since it was introduced. Myself included. But I refused to succumb and after hours of trial and error, I declared war and set aside 3 days (if needed) to wrestle this thing to the ground until it cried uncle. After the first day, I knew I had won. The problem is, it is an engineering marvel but a manufacturing disappointment. I would love to meet the guy who designed this- he's brilliant. The problem is, the user has to over come the manufacturing deficiencies. Once you understand how it was designed to work, the light goes off. (or on?)

The preceding kitchen vs heirloom discussion is spot on but this IS a kitchen and as I said, I know I can't achieve this kind of perfection without the jig and router(s).

Cherry front and white ash sides and back. Note the telltale Blum Tandem notch and hole at the back. Even tho the cherry front is 7/8" and the ash back is 3/4" they were done with the same setup, the only difference being a 1/8" difference in the half blind dovetail remainder of the stock thickness. Easy.

My chance of achieving this level of perfection by hand is less than zero. Put me in the jig camp, happily.



268897268898268899268900268901Beautiful work, sir. I have the 4212 for when I want to cut them by machine, yes there is a learning curve but once you get it the jig works well.

[Chris Hachet]

Okay, I would use a jig for Dave's project too. That would be a lot of dovetails. I'm warming up to the idea of getting a fancy adjustable jig. For the time being I can't justify it for the number of times I would use it. If I ever did a kitchen then yes- I would get a jig. Please don't tell anybody. :-)Which was my point....besides, I like freedom of choice. there are times it just works better to cut them by hand...and I am learning very slowly.