Looking for thoughts on heavy duty planers

[David Scheckman]

Hello All, After 30 yrs of working with a Powermatic e-16 planer, I'm thinking seriously of upgrading. The e-16 has done great work but is pretty beat in many (almost all) ways. We're a small commercial shop, arm of a design/build business, as well we do general cabinet work. Generally one or two workers in the shop. I'm moving toward retirement and working exclusively in the shop and have been upgrading a lot of our equipment. A few options I'm considering: New SCM Nova S520 with inset head (most expensive current option I've looked at). New Felder D951 with silent power head. (roughly $1500 less then the SCM). Finally a used 1999 (green) SCM S520 with a new Hermance Helixhead, with a 60 days parts warranty from Hermance. ( About $3000 less then the Felder, but still big bucks.) I'm pretty stuck on wanting an insert head, thinking it will save a lot of sanding time on chipouts. No widebelt and I'd like to avoid one. I'm leaning towards the used one but having dealt with used equipment my whole (long) career its been terrific to have some new stuff. I'm interested in folks opinions and any leads, options, recommendations. I've been watching for used (woodweb etc.) for a few months and with the exception of one nicely priced SCM (without insert head) I acted too slow on have not seen much worth pursuing. I'm not in a huge rush but would like to have something in place by the new year.
Thanks,
David
Plainfield Vermont

[Peter Quinn]

I'm not familiar enough with the choices you listed to give an opinion, I do like insert heads, highly recommend, saves a ton of work verses conventional straight knives, less wasted stock, quieter, easier chip collection. I've worked with a big Casadei planer for a while now, those I highly recommend, accurate, very solid, easy adjustments, durable. I'm sure you can't go wrong with the SCM or the Felder either. I'm just finishing up a job at work using an old powermatic planer similar to the e-16. I say dump that rustic boat anchor in the bay and move into the 21st century. They don't build them like they used too, and we can all thank God for that.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have had an SCM 520 for about thirteen years and I have not had any problems other than the boots rotted last year. Has a Tersa head which I would do again. Finish is better than I can get with my Byrd heads on other machines. I looked at Casadei when I bought this machine, very comparable, price was the deciding factor. Myself I think the Felder is a notch down from the SCM and Casadei, both very heavy commercial machines.

The thing about this machine I love the most is the finished surface is almost perfect @ 16fpm, no tearout no matter what I plane, and very little sanding compared to my other machines. For less precice work it has four speeds up to 72 fpm. The machine is also very quiet, partly by design of the machine itself and partly the Tersa head as it does not have the large gullet that other straight heads have. You can stand next to the machine and talk in a normal voice when it is running.

Larry

[David Kumm]

Casadei is now owned by SCMI so the machines are very similar. I'm not familiar with the Hermance head but if the machine is the SCMI class series you would have to consider it as it is heavier than the Nova series. The Felder head may be the pick of the litter but the 900 series is a little lighter than the Nova. There has also been a new-old Griggio tersa listed on CL. Griggio is on a par with the SCMI. As to new vs old there hasn't been much change in how planers work for 75 years other than heads so any machine performance is related to condition and build rather than cast iron vs steel. New have powered beds and electronic readouts that are very nice but also make machines from the 80's more like boat anchors too. Old cast iron machines with spiral heads required grinding in place so they don't help with the quick change thing. They did have rollers driven by a separate motor when you get to 24". There are no old planers less than 24" that can really be compared to newer 20 because in the old days the 16-20" were considered light duty. In the used market for a commercial shop, SCMI has the most machines out there and parts pronto does a good job of stocking replacements. A machine with extra rollers is a benefit too. Kind of like finding a T130 shaper with the upgraded fence. Rare but worth jumping on. Dave

[David Scheckman]

I've seen that Griggio listed by a broker for a lot more. I had not seen it on CL. It would test my 3 phase converter but also could have serious rust issues or perhaps worse, mice in the wiring or who knows what else. On the other hand, seemingly a good price. Its the dilemma of new vs used and I'm having a hard time with that. Just can't sign on for a possible project machine, but don't really want to pay for new. Also not in a very good location to be able to see and inspect a range of used machinery, just not that much around here.
Thanks,
David

[David Kumm]

David, I understand the problem, particularly in a commercial shop. Rust on a machine that new can't be a big deal if the packing gel has never been removed. Bearing grease could be an issue but usually more so if the machine has been sitting 20 years. I've bought so much used that any machine less than 20 years old looks new to me but I'm just a hobby guy so fix up time isn't critical. There is no substitute for build quality though. The good thing about planers is that it is easy to tell if they have been used hard. you can see the wear on the center feed rollers and chip breaker segments. The tersa vs spiral is the interesting comparison. I've got spiral but question whether Tersa isn't the better choice if running rough stock vs something all ready skip planed. Don't know the answer to that. Dave

[David Scheckman]

I haven't ruled out a tersa head. I'm sure it would be work well, mostly I'd be worried I'd have to change the cutters more often then I would like. I like the looks of the Hermance Head. There is not much feedback on it out there, but what there is seems positive. Ditto with Hermance as a dealer. I'm leaning towards buying the machine they are offering, just seems a bit too pricey for a 15 year old machine I can not inspect so I waver.

[Erik Loza]

...I'm leaning towards buying the machine they are offering, just seems a bit too pricey for a 15 year old machine I can not inspect so I waver.

David, I won't give you any advice as to which machine to buy except to make two comments...

1.) Hermance has been a very respected dealer in the industry for many years.
2.) Probably 90% of industrial machinery, new or used, is purchased sight-unseen. I'm not saying that being able to see what you are purchasing is not important to you. Sounds like it is. Just that at some point, if you want that "super deal", you will probably need to suspend your anxiety in order to make it happen. Cannot tell you how many customers I have had over the years miss machine deal after machine deal because they wanted time to "think about it".

Just an observation. Best of luck with your search.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

I'm assuming you would upgrade the 4 knife listed? I didn't see a spiral on their site. Dave

[David Scheckman]

I think what I'm grappling with in this case is it's not a "super deal". I think its a sound high quality used planer with a new head at a retail price. 15 yrs. old about 50% off the price of a new equivalent. Although as a 1999 S520 vs a new Nova 520 it may be a slightly heavier duty machine, I'm not sure about that though.
Thanks,
David

[David Scheckman]

Yes, They are upgrading the planer with a new Hermance Helixhead, new bearings, cleaned and tested with a 60 day parts warranty. I feel pretty secure that its in decent shape, just hesitant on the price, which they will not bargain on. Actually I just checked the listing its the green S520H listed with a Tersa head but selling at the same price with a Helixhead.
David

[Gregory Stahl]

I don't know if I could part with that much money for a 15-year old planer! Used S520s are common. I would be buying my own and dropping a Byrd head in it for considerable savings--something I am considering now. There is a nice new S520, but an older machine on ebay with a Byrd head in it for about $12k--never been used. It is from Grizzly--they must have bought it to compare/copy from. I offered them $8k but they won't budge. A bit more than what you are looking at, but might be worth it for a never been used machine. Maybe you can get it if your willing to pay a bit more than me.

Good luck,
Greg

[David Scheckman]

I've looked at that and checked on shipping costs. I questioned them today about it wondering if anyone has fired it up, checked if its in working order. It should be fine but still sitting unused for 10 yrs. (2004 model) seems at least a little dicey. If they were offering a warrantee I may have bitten on it. I'm wondering it's not listed with "make offer" you just e-mailed them an offer?
David

[Gregory Stahl]

Yes, I submitted an offer through the "ask seller a question" link. They responded that they paid $15k+ for the machine and they could not take less than the $12k. This machine might be for sale for a while.

The S630 has got my interest though--it is driving distance for me.

Keep looking, I think you will find a better deal. About 4 years ago I got an S520 used less than an hour for $1000. I let the local high school get it and replace a Delta wedge bed planer that was falling apart. I often wish I would have kept it for myself, but I had just bought a PM180.

[Dave Cav]

I'll throw a contrary view out there; you say the Powermatic has worked fine for 30 years; why not rebuild it and get another 30 years out of it. For the cost of a Byrd head and a couple hundred in new bearings, and possibly some machine work on the rollers it would be as good as new. Everything on that planer is rebuildable, and parts should be available from Powermatic if need be. I understand the time constraints and desire to get a new machine, but if money is tight and you have the time available, rebuilding is an option you might consider.

Another option would be to get a Delta 22-470 and put a Byrd head in it. We have had one in my high school shop for over 15 years and it's been totally bulletproof. Simple and basic but heavy duty. I put a Byrd head in it last year and it was about a 2 or 3 hour job.

Just curious, why are you not interested in a widebelt?

[Erik Loza]

...just hesitant on the price, which they will not bargain on...

I think a lot of people got complacent (not speaking of you, specifically...) over the last few years with the whole, "I'll just wait... Another deal will come along", mentality in regards to used industrial machinery. That worked for a while, but not any longer. All the machines which flooded the used market, from all the shops that went under during the crash, have been gobbled up already and it has shifted back to more of a seller's market than a buyer's market. At least on the good stuff. Dealerships will only hold fast on a price because they know the market will pay it and that's going to be increasingly the case now that the economy appears to be rebounding. Just my observation.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Larry Edgerton]

I had a PM180 with a Byrd before the SCM. There is no comparison. The SCM was worth the 12K.

[Gregory Stahl]

I had a PM180 with a Byrd before the SCM. There is no comparison. The SCM was worth the 12K.

I guess I'll be putting my PM180 w/Byrd up for sale now! Do you have Tersa or Byrd in your SCM?

[Larry Edgerton]

I think a lot of people got complacent (not speaking of you, specifically...) over the last few years with the whole, "I'll just wait... Another deal will come along", mentality in regards to used industrial machinery. That worked for a while, but not any longer. All the machines which flooded the used market, from all the shops that went under during the crash, have been gobbled up already and it has shifted back to more of a seller's market than a buyer's market. At least on the good stuff. Dealerships will only hold fast on a price because they know the market will pay it and that's going to be increasingly the case now that the economy appears to be rebounding. Just my observation.


Erik Loza
Minimax USA

I will agree with that wholeheartedly. I was casually looking for a big shaper but they were everywhere, so no rush. Then all of a sudden they were not, and the ones that were out there used were so high priced that new was a better option. When my house is done...........

Larry

[Stephen Cherry]

I think a lot of people got complacent (not speaking of you, specifically...) over the last few years with the whole, "I'll just wait... Another deal will come along", mentality in regards to used industrial machinery. That worked for a while, but not any longer. All the machines which flooded the used market, from all the shops that went under during the crash, have been gobbled up already and it has shifted back to more of a seller's market than a buyer's market. At least on the good stuff. Dealerships will only hold fast on a price because they know the market will pay it and that's going to be increasingly the case now that the economy appears to be rebounding. Just my observation.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Yup, the giveaway deals are over. What I wonder about is how many of the machines that were sold during the crash ended up on boats to somewhere else? My theory is that it was more than people would imagine, but it's just a guess.

[Larry Edgerton]

I guess I'll be putting my PM180 w/Byrd up for sale now! Do you have Tersa or Byrd in your SCM?

Don't get me wrong, the 180 was a great planer, and in fact I wish I had kept it for rough stock, but the SCM is a work saver. It is accurate, repeatably, and just a joy to use. I have a Tersa head. much less sanding than the Byrd. The Byrd will take more dirt, which is why I wish I still had the PM for first pass.

About two years ago SCM's were all over for +/- 5k, but not so much any more.

[Gregory Stahl]

Several S520s have gone for under $5k in the past couple months. Machinery Max sold a nice one for $4k, IRS auction $2k, but in reality a bit more after insurance and rigging, and a nice 2003-ish for under $4500 in the Chicago area. These are easy machines to ship, so I would still look for a deal.

I agree prices from the bigger used dealers are out of hand. I was negotiating a couple of jointers, a Mini Max 16" and a SAC F430. But for less than $1500 more including shipping, I was able to snag a brand new SCMI F520. It should be delivered this week!

[David Kumm]

I think good lightly used planers are tougher to find than shapers. There have been several T130s with feeders for sale recently for 5-6K which I consider to still be a good price even if higher than a couple years ago. Planers tend to be used a lot in every shop and few are bought by hobby guys. There are also more things that can go wrong with them. Certain machines are worth spending extra on for a reputable opinion. Planers, Edge sanders, and widebelts come to mind. I have found that when you find the right machine it feels right and if it doesn't you should move on. I've also found that you can't overpay for the correct one and the wrong one is never a bargain. ( The Griggio on CL still trips my trigger of the options talked about. If it were a SCMI it would be a no brainer ). Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

. But for less than $1500 more including shipping, I was able to snag a brand new SCMI F520. It should be delivered this week!

Now I am jelious. That is on my list as well.

Larry

[Rick Fisher]

If you don't want a project machine.. I would go with an SCM .. I think its probably the best bang for the buck in top end planers, period..

I picked up a 2001 Griggio PF-520 about a month ago and its a project planer. Surface rust, needs a new cutterhead.. Sigh.. I should actually get busy on it .. lol

The Griggio of mine is not as good a planer IMO as the SCM .. Its lighter, 2 x screws for the table.. etc.. etc.. but its still a 1600 lb Italian planer..

Mine was $3000.00 I figure I will be into it for $6000 when its running and pretty, with a new cutter head.. But that won't include hours of work, cleaning and scraping..

[David Scheckman]

Rebuilding the powermatic was my first inclination. When I looked at everything I would want to do, added up the money and the time, I decided to go in a different direction. I've bought some new equipment in the last year or so, an scmi shaper and a felder saw and they are really a pleasure. Don't get me wrong, new is not necessary, I've still got old equipment (Moak jointer and Curtis stroke sander for example) and they get the job done. I also don't believe tools only make the woodworker. I've done this a long time and could get by with an old cabinet saw and hand tools. But walking into the shop and going to a machine which, works perfectly, is smooth and quiet, has good dust collection and improved safety could add a few pleasurable years to the money making part of my worklife.

[David Kumm]

Good info on the Griggio, Rick. I was wondering how it was coming. The E16 is not the planer to rebuild. If it were a 221, 224, Oliver, or Northfield it might be worthwhile. There is a market for those. Dave

[Craig Behnke]

david,

in february i looked at felder, hammer, and minimax to buy a jointer planer combo machine and bandsaw. i went with a hammer jointer planer and a felder bandsaw.

usually it's tough to see and touch those brands, but i'm right in east montpelier just a few miles from you and i'd be happy to have you come by and see them if that helps your decision.

-craig

[Jeff Duncan]

Here's my point of view for what it's worth....your running a business with employees so you need to think about how much use and abuse this planer is going to get. In that situation I would want either a brand new planer with a warranty, or if used, fully rebuilt with a warranty. Planers are much more complicated than shapers and not at all easy to rebuild if they've been driven hard for years. I have a 40 +/- year old SCM 520 and when it goes I'll be replacing it. It's a great planer and I really do love it, but the amount of parts that wear down and would need to be replaced, and/or machined, is going to cost a fortune in time and money. I've rebuilt shapers and they are generally pretty simple as there are few moving parts. Planers are full of moving parts, planers also wear unevenly so tables and feed rollers tend to be overly worn in the middle. Just a whole different ball game IMHO.

I haven't looked at new planers so can't help you there. Generally however SCM builds heavier machinery better suited to commercial situations. Felder is a step or so below them and is probably better suited to smaller shops with guys who will take good care and not abuse them. As for heads the commercial guys seem to prefer the Tersa heads. I like my 4 knife head with the grinder on the machine, the finish can't get much better than that and it's super cost effective once you get past the initial price of the machine. Of course I also have a widebelt and wouldn't ever be without one again;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

I'm surprised to see good comments on the SCMI planers. Only used one,and that was ten years ago.It was 20 or 24 inch,
can't remember. It had a slow top feed speed and some odd engineering. When the small rubber band type belt broke that ran the mechanical digital read out the feed itself stopped. Maybe they are better now.

[Jeff Duncan]

Mines a bit older so can't speak to the new ones:confused: I did mistype though, mines a S50, not 520, for what little it's worth. Mine's probably the first generation of SCM planers and is built like a tank. Makes the old Powermatic I used to use seem like a toy in comparison:D

I know their new heavy shapers on the other hand have a reputation as second to Martin, so I'm a bit surprised the planers would be lesser quality? Again, no first hand outside of my old tank;)

JeffD

[Glenn Ancona]

David
not sure how far you are from ny state line or Albany
We bit the bullet and went with felders Format4 exact 63 that your more than welcome to come and run a few boards thru if you would like. We went tersa before the " silent cutter " head but after blade change etc. I wouldn't have gone any other way.
Relative to the other machines in house, it's a tolerable db - like most till you open the dust port.

Good luck in your search - glenn

[David Scheckman]

Anyone have any comments on recent model Casolin planers?

[David Kumm]

I tend to forget about them because there are fewer that come up used. Italian and very similar in build to Griggio, SCM, Casadei. If you find what you want for the right price I would consider it. Not as big a presence here as SCMi. The old SCM L'Invincible stuff was very heavy made, as was EMA Zefam ( they had a bunch of names and were all eastern block ). Dave

[Erik Loza]

Anyone have any comments...?

This is just my opinion, value it for what you feel it's worth. All Italian planers are about the same. It's a big, heavy planer with a four-post table and maybe bed rollers. Just like the next one. Minus the bells and whistles on this or that "tier" of electronics from each of the various mfrs., it is pretty hard to mess up a planer and the Italians don't build lemons, so any one of them is fine. What I advise customers to do is make their decision based on which one that has the greatest support infrastructure for parts and service. That's really what you are paying for. I'll avoid mentioning brands for obvious reasons but it is pretty easy to browse used for-sale threads and see which Italian planers are still commanding relatively high prices and which ones seem to be impossible for dealers to unload.

Just my 2-cents,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Stephen Cherry]

Just a heads up, fleabay has a new looking scmi 520 with a byrd head for sale by, get this, grizzly. This reminds me of when I worked at a tape drive company about 30 years ago. They had a room with just about every drive that had ever been made.

[Jeff Duncan]

Huh:confused:

So was it a trade in.....or are they finished trying to copy it:D

JeffD

[Erik Loza]

Now, THAT is some irony....

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rod Sheridan]

Huh:confused:

So was it a trade in.....or are they finished trying to copy it:D

JeffD

LOL........................Rod.

[Will Blick]

The square heads IMO have revolutionized planers... I agree with a few posters who mentioned warranty, new heads, quiet, etc. For $4k u can have a new 20" Powermatic w/ Byrd, delivered in a few days..its pretty much plug n play, no fussin other than setting rollers.... this is a heavy duty machine, and the performance of the cutters is stellar, as smooth as my straight blade planes, and whisper quiet... have not rotated cutters till 1.5 years... unless u use the planer 8 hrs a day, I can't fathom u needing more of a machine than these mid tier brands... (of course, their higher end models) I too considered buying a used Italian brand, in this case, I am glad I went new....
http://www.amazon.com/Powermatic-1791315-209HH-20-Inch-Cutterhead/dp/B001GOGLUC/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1