Trying plane refit

[Derek Cohen]

A recent thread on a fore plane on Wood Central re-kindled a flame that has been smouldering for some while. It also opened up a topic that others here may find of interest.


I switch between metal and wooden planes, and for periods will use just one or the other. The wooden planes are a mix of HNT Gordon and one's I have built. The plane of interest here is an HNT Gordon Trying Plane.


Terry Gordon describes this as good for "smoothing of any long timber surface or for jointing". This plane is 18" long, and has a 2" wide and 1/4" thick single iron bedded at 60 degrees, and set up with a camber similar to a smoother. The plane was no doubt inspired by Terry's years based in Malaysia with the airforce, yet is intended for the cranky woods of Australia. At this, it excels.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A1_zpsc45a4664.jpg


I love the way this plane performs, but I do not enjoy pushing it with the cross bar handle, and instead remove it, and wrap my hand around the body. This is quite uncomfortable as the body is square and the edges cut into the hand.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A2_zps28beb496.jpg


One may be excused for thinking that this plane is for pulling, as with a Japanese plane. The mouth is far back, compared to a Western plane. It is about half way. And there in lies the issues I faced - is there room for a handle, and how will this affect the balance?


For illustration, here is my 28" jointer and 15" jack plane alongside the trying plane ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A3_zps262f83d8.jpg


In the picture above I lined up the planes at the rear hand. Now look where the mouths are ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A4_zps7f58225f.jpg


The HNT Gordon is definitely the odd one out - including a Stanley #7 reveals that the others are similar in placement of mouth and handle ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A5_zps9c9978a9.jpg


I did some research looking for information on the relationship of the handle to the mouth. I could find information on the mouth, but not where the handle should be placed. I do know, partly from experience, that the further back the handle, the less the control.


One other aspect that could change - probably would change - is the "feel". The reason I like the HNT Gordon planes in that they are low aspect with a low centre of effort. A handle would raise the centre of effort and change the nature of the plane.


The only reason I was prepared to go ahead was that the Trying Plane was stuttering into disuse as I now found it uncomfortable. And yet it worked so well.


So I built a handle. The white lines on the plane body indicate the position where my hand usually grips.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A6_zps69f30bc9.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A7_zps8987d014.jpg


The body was morticed ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A8_zpsc7fbf7c9.jpg


And the handle was epoxied in. I figure that epoxy is reversible with heat.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A9_zpsa306250c.jpg


There is enough room to swing a plane hammer (this was not by luck! :) ) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A10_zps48d34228.jpg


Trying out the new trying plane (ouch! Sorry!) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A11_zps26521ec6.jpg


The handle is a good size, and fits my hand perfectly ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A12_zps2ff1ddf3.jpg


How does it feel? In a word, different. A little squirrely at first, then I became used to this and it was solid. But definitely different. The higher centre of effort is noticeable. The performance, however, has not changed - still fantastic.


I did find one other way to hold the plane, and that was to use the handle as a hook for the crook of my hand. This restored the low centre of effort.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Trying%20Plane%20Refit/A13_zps08729282.jpg


Any thoughts?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[David Weaver]

The orientation of the mouth to the body of the plane is similar to continental planes which have their handles all the way on the back. It's odd at first but seems natural once you get used to using the whole apparatus with both hands having a more even role.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe the back of the plane could be cut down a bit. Is razee the word for that?

That would lower the center.

The lever effect of a handle far from the blade may could make a difference. Not sure if it is a good or bad difference. Likely depends on what one is used to using.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

The plane is low like a razee already. Cannot go lower.

I suspect that, where a Western plane obtains its control from a mouth that is further forward - which permits a handle to be used - in Eastern designs the control comes from the low centre of effort, which is reinforced by the low hand hold. This allows the mouth to be further back.

I will live with the handle for a while, but it is likely that I will replace the handle for a low hand hold, one for the cup of my hand.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek I am enjoying your exploration of more comfortable ways to use planes of this shape. I have four planes I made from parts I got from Steve Knight just before he stopped making planes, all are the long square body styles. I bought several fully enclosed rough handles from Steve but they do not fit the smaller smooth planes. Steve's handle design is sort of similar to the handle on your jointer but the finger hole is much smaller. Once I got use to that handle, on my 26" jointer and 15.5" jack, I found I was not very comfortable holding plain square plane bodies.

The metal Veritas planes I use have handles similar to your open handles, also very comfortable but I think your point about them orienting weight a little higher fits my experience as well. Although that style handle works well with the base heavy Veritas planes I can see how it might feel a little wobbly on a lighter wooden plane. I bought a Veritas handle thinking about trying it on one of my smaller planes, but now I think I will wait and see what you come up with.

[Derek Cohen]

It becomes clearer to me that the placement of mouth and handle/hold is a compromise between the factors that promote stability (i.e. keeping the two as widely apart as possible) and maneuverability (i.e. bringing them closer). A higher centre of effort may make the mouth placement more critical (i.e. it needs to be further forward), while a lower centre of effort reduces this (i.e. the mouth can be moved back). The ideal is having the mouth further back as this increases registration - which, incidentally, is a feature on the LV bevel up planes.


I could replace the handle for one similar to this one by Yeung Chan ...


http://wnwoodworkingschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/P32122351.jpg

I had a bit more practice with the plane today. It works if you push with the heel of your hand when holding the handle. Again, this is low centre of effort stuff.


Then I had a look at Terry's two trying planes, the unhandled one and the handled one ...


http://www.hntgordon.com.au/gtweb.jpg


http://www.hntgordon.com.au/webgA55try.jpg


It is relevant that he has pushed the mouth forward on the handled trying plane, although it is still far back compared with typical Western planes. And it has an even lower centre of effort as it is built into a razee. That tends to support what I said earlier, that the lower centre of effort "forgives" a long toe. I suspect that my trying plane would be improved by creating a razee rear - one factor that does argue in its favour is that the new handle wants to be held at the lower end, suggesting that is where its centre of effort lies.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Here are the planes I have. The blades on mine are forward of the mid point. Mine need some work, although I started playing with the Jack plane top with some files, I have not made much in the way of shape change yet. Mine are only 1 3/4" thick and they all have adjustable wooden mouths that bite into the bodies in front of the blades. I don't think there is room to do a razee on them. The adjustable mouth holes have metal holders for the screws that clamp the mouths in place. The screw holders reach just below the top surface of the planes. Sorry for the foggy pictures.

Derek, yes that is an HNT Gordon blade in the jointer. I bought the last two HNT blades from Highland Woodworking at one of their sales.The Yeung Chan handle looks like it would work well.