Anybody here use the Segment Stomper?

[Dan Case LR]

Do any of the segmented turning lovers here have any experience with Lloyd Johnson's Segment Stomper?

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LS6TnFWVXVk

This looks like one brilliant tool for aligning both open and closed rings. Just curious if there are any issues or caveats I should know about.

Thanks!

D.

[dirk martin]

Not sure how it can help aligning closed rings.
Afterall, don't segments in closed rings align themselves?

[Greg Just]

I have watched that video a couple of times and like Dirk, not sure how it helps with a closed ring. I use large hose screw clamps as recommended by Malcolm Tibbetts and use his half ring method. I would be afraid the rubber band is not enough clamping pressure, but I don't do a lot of segmented work so I'm not an expert.

[Dan Case LR]

It's not used for glueing closed segments into rings. Once you have your rings built, it makes it easy to align then while stacking. His video doesn't show that as clearly as it shows stacking open segments.

D.

[Michelle Rich]

I do a lot of segmented work, and I would not buy it.

[Richard Coers]

I haven't done any segmented work, but looks like it would work try well. Ingenious really, and lets you do the glue up on a bench. I like it!

[Dan Case LR]

I do a lot of segmented work, and I would not buy it.

Why not?

D.

[Robert McGowen]

I actually watched the video to the end and understand what you are asking. I have never done an open segmented piece, but it looks like it would be very useful using the alignment plates that it shows, and also using the stomper. I might actually buy or make one if I were going to do an open segmented piece. As far as using it for a regular segmented piece, I did not find it all that useful, and like Michelle, would not buy it.

1) I personally don't think putting a 5 lb weight on top of the vase for pressure is anywhere close to being enough weight. If you think about it, when a making a vase with 10-12 rings completed, plus the chuck, you are probably getting close to or even more than 5 lbs. of weight. If all you needed was 5 lbs of weight, then you would not even need to add any additional weight. Just spread some glue, lay the vase on top, and let it dry. I don't think so.
2) I think that it would be way faster and just as accurate to simply align the rings by eyeballing them.
3) I think that the longworth chuck that it uses would be a problem. You need to put a dampener between the ring being glued and the table. (Router pad) You need to protect everything from the glue run off. (Wax paper). I think all of this is going to interfere with the longworth chuck.
4) You need some way to stabilize the vase itself. When you put a realistic amount of pressure on the vase (not 5 lbs.) the vase itself can move a bit even if the ring being glued on does not move. The plastic pipe is not going to prevent that.
5) You are limited in how tall of a vase you can make.

I do agree being able to glue on a horizontal surface and not on the lathe is very useful. I have a 3/4" pipe attached to the ceiling of my shop over my glue up table. I have the screw end of a pipe clamp on the pole. Put the ring on the table, put the vase on the ring, slide the clamp down to the chuck, align everything, then screw on enough pressure to make yourself happy. I can apply any pressure from a very light touch where I can still slide everything around and make adjustments all the way up to bending the ceiling rafters upward. YMMV

[Dan Case LR]

Valid points, Robert. I've seen several schemes for centering closed rings, including the giant truncated cone and the stomper. I've also heard highly respected segmented pundits say "Just eyeball it." I've used the eyeball method so far and it's worked fine, though I've got to admit that there have been times when the glued-up result made me wonder where my eyes were when I glued that ring. I make my rings with a little material to spare just in case, and for closed-segment work I'd be hard pressed to justify spending much on a ring alignment jig.

Open segments are a whole 'nother thing. Much of Lloyd's work is open-segment, and for that the stomper is just plain brilliant. I get the feeling that the closed ring solution is more of an afterthought. I'd like to try some open segment work, so I'll probably get a stomper eventually.

My clamping system for stacking rings is a bit less elaborate than yours. I use my floor-standing drill press. Makes a very effective clamp for the purpose. The first time I need the drill press during that 30 minutes of clamp time, I'll probably come up with something else. :)

D.

[Thom Sturgill]

Robert's solution is similar to the use of 'go-bars' which are thin pieces of wood that are flexed between the ceiling and workbench to apply pressure where a clamp will not reach. Used for veneer repair, musical instrument assembly and other tasks. Of course the pipe will provide much more pressure. I read an article several years ago written by a scientist who helped develop many of the glues we use. He said the old adage about never having too many clamps was an understatement, few wood workers use enough clamping pressure. Wish I could cite the article.

So far the only segmented work I have done was stave construction and I worry about getting enough glue pressure assembling the staves. This would also apply to creating the rings. Makes me wonder if hide glue might not be a better solution than carpenters glue as it does not require pressure. It is also repairable which carpenters glue is not.

[Steve Rost]

I am doing segmented work almost all the time. I would not buy the stomper. It is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. At least for me! Thom, I have seen results of tests with different glues and different clamping pressures and I seem to remember you can over clamp and litterally squeeze out the glue and starve the joint.

[Robert McGowen]

I hear talk all the time about squeezing the glue out of the joints from using too much pressure. I personally don't think that it is possible with the pressures that are normally used in segmentation. I use stainless steel hose clamps that I tighten with a nut driver in a Makita high torque screw gun for making segments rings. It easily flattens the sides of the dowels when I glue up segments in half rings. I am guessing that the pipe from the ceiling trick (which I first saw in Malcom Tibbett's book) can easily apply several hundred pounds of pressure. YMMV

[allan kuntz]

I think with the Longworth chuck shown in the video it would work real well especially with feature rings that usualy don't have a lot of extra to turn off if not centered. I just saw this video last night and plan on building the chuck and the stomper but I will build the chuck big enough to suit my lathe and the stomper taller to accommodate the height that like to build. I agree that 5lbs would not be enough weight. I have a home made press with an acme screw and a bearing for a swivel that works great. So far i have only done closed segmented turning.
Regards
Al

[Dan Case LR]

Somehow I think I'm in the minority here, but I don't use clamping at all when gluing segments into closed rings. I use an extremely accurate cutting system (Incra 1000HD miter gauge on a well-tuned table saw) and the slide-joint gluing method taught by Don Leman in this video:

http://woodtreks.com/how-to-glue-up-a-segmented-turning-pieces/38/

It seems to work OK for me. Here's what I worked on tonight:

268907268908


D.

[Jon Nuckles]

Fine Woodworking ran an article a while back with a test of clamping pressure. If I recall correctly, they concluded that the more pressure the stronger the joint, and it was not possible to starve the joint.

[Mel Fulks]

The technicians employed by the glue mfgs say they have not seen a "glued starved joint "from too much pressure. It is
possible to crush wood with clamps!

[Robert McGowen]

Somehow I think I'm in the minority here, but I don't use clamping at all when gluing segments into closed rings. I use an extremely accurate cutting system (Incra 1000HD miter gauge on a well-tuned table saw) and the slide-joint gluing method taught by Don Leman in this video
This is only my opinion of course, but if you want one of the slower, more inaccurate ways to glue up a ring, this would be one of the methods to use. If you research the half-ring method for another way to glue segments into rings, you might be surprised how fast and accurate it is.

[Dan Case LR]

I do my glue-ups in half rings--I just use the slide-joint method instead of clamping. With properly cut segments, it is quite fast and extremely accurate.

D.

[Robert McGowen]

Dan, If you are using the method described in the video you referenced above to glue the segments together, this is not the half-ring method to which I was referring. The method that I was referring to glues all of the segments into 2 half rings at one time, then you glue the 2 half rings together. You only glue 2 times to get the entire ring completed.

[Dan Case LR]

I'm familiar with the method you use. Like your method, I glue up two half-rings at the same time. The difference is the technique of gluing the half rings.

I was skeptical about Leman's "slide joint" gluing method until I tried it myself. after doing a few joints I could recognize the change in the glue's "grip." At that point I slide it into its final position, using my thumb to align the the outside points while applying pressure to the joint for a few seconds. After that, I let go and the joint stays put. I do the glue-up on wax paper, so I can slide the glued segments around without stressing them and move right on to gluing the next segment. When I've finished gluing two half-rings, I slide the wax paper to the side and start the next ring.

I've never timed myself, but I doubt that this method is any slower than yours. If we lived closer, I'd probably challenge you to a ring-building contest just to find out. :)

Like many things in woodturning, there's more than one "right answer." There is even more than one "best answer." It is my opinion that if you put three experienced woodturners in a room, you'll get at least four answers to any question about the right way to do most anything. And all four answers will be right.

D.

[Bob Coates]

Google "pressure needed for wood glue joints" . If you believe the internet, most seem to say you need pressure to hold joints together. I have done many rings that have 15 segments each, which prevents your 1/2 ring method, the cuts need to be dead on with no chance to sand. If Lemans segments are dead on as he says, I see no need to do only a 1/2 ring and sand the 1/2 ring. I agree with you on the three woodworks.

[Thom Sturgill]

Every article I have ever read on joints talks about how week end-grain to end-grain (butt) joints are. Every joint in a typical ring is a butt joint and thus very week regardless of gluing technique. It is the stacking of rings (side grain to sidegrain) and bridging of joints that gives any strength to the finished product. This is proven by the very existence of open ring vessels. JMHO.

[allan kuntz]

Some how this has turned into a clamping discussion. I think the stomper is more of an alignment tool and not so much for clamping. I agree that 5 lbs is not enough weight for something 12" in diameter but you can always add more. When I do large segmented turnings I do them in 2 and 3 pieces and use about 15 lbs. I glue rings in one piece and use hose clamps and tighten the crap out of them because of the amount of glue used because you need lots for working time and you need to squeeze the glue out. When I glue one section to the other I use very little glue because you are just setting one on top of the other so there is very little glue to squeeze out. Like before I think with the longworth chuck and the stomper the alignment issues have to be cut down. I am sure I am not the only one to have glued one ring to another and noticed later it did not line up like you wanted. Shop built for even $30.00 is a gamble but I am sure most people have spent that on an item and used once or twice then never to be dusted off again. I have only been turning for 2-1/2 years and learned a tremendous amount of information from discussions like this.
Al

[Dan Case LR]

Google "pressure needed for wood glue joints" . If you believe the internet, most seem to say you need pressure to hold joints together. I have done many rings that have 15 segments each, which prevents your 1/2 ring method, the cuts need to be dead on with no chance to sand. If Lemans segments are dead on as he says, I see no need to do only a 1/2 ring and sand the 1/2 ring. I agree with you on the three woodworks.

While you're Googling, be sure to Google "Rubbed Glue Joints." Much of what you'll find refers to old-school hot hide glues, but there are also references to support the use of rubbed joints with PVA glues IN SOME CONDITIONS. The conditions: square, flat, gapless glue joints won't be stressed while drying.

Before dismissing this technique as (insert your favorite terms of non-endearment here), I suggest you try a few and get the feel of the PVA glue "grabbing" and the joint tightening up. I use Titebond III and the grab and subsequent tightening are quite distinct and notable, but I've read that Titebond 1 has even better properties for this technique.

Once you've tried the technique, you've earned the right to badmouth it if you see fit.

D.

[allan kuntz]

Some how this has turned into a clamping discussion. I think the stomper is more of an alignment tool and not so much for clamping. I agree that 5 lbs is not enough weight for something 12" in diameter but you can always add more. When I do large segmented turnings I do them in 2 and 3 pieces and use about 15 lbs. I glue rings in one piece and use hose clamps and tighten the crap out of them because of the amount of glue used because you need lots for working time and you need to squeeze the glue out. When I glue one section to the other I use very little glue because you are just setting one on top of the other so there is very little glue to squeeze out. Like before I think with the longworth chuck and the stomper the alignment issues have to be cut down. I am sure I am not the only one to have glued one ring to another and noticed later it did not line up like you wanted. Shop built for even $30.00 is a gamble but I am sure most people have spent that on an item and used once or twice then never to be dusted off again. I have only been turning for 2-1/2 years and learned a tremendous amount of information from discussions like this.
Al

[Robert McGowen]

Once you've tried the technique, you've earned the right to badmouth it if you see fit.

D. I used it for quite a while, back when I thought that it was a good technique! :D

[John Lifer]

Interesting idea, but why pay money for something like this? If you have a computer and printer, make your own templates. That is the trick here, not the vertical pipe. In fact, there are several turning sites that already have these templates for you to d/l and use. Just my take on it after watching vid

[Dan Case LR]

Some how this has turned into a clamping discussion. I think the stomper is more of an alignment tool and not so much for clamping. I agree that 5 lbs is not enough weight for something 12" in diameter but you can always add more.


Thanks for pulling us back to the original topic, Allan.

The stomper, as I understand it, is about both alignment and applying sufficient pressure to make a good glue joint. You're right that 5lbs may not be enough pressure for a 12-inch ring, but for the little open-segment ring he had on the jig for demo purposes, it's probably not bad (unless you're in the camp that can never apply enough force to a glue joint). And he did say he had more weights if needed. With the mating surfaces secured from moving (by the jig) the weight required to hold the pieces together tightly may be less than we think, assuming the surfaces are all straight, true and uniform. Nothing beats a good clamp for pulling together a glue joint that's not quite true in dry-fit.

As I've said before, I think the stomper's forte is open rings. I can see a lot of potential in it for that. As for closed rings, the thought stimulated by this thread has given me an idea that I'm thinking through that might just make everyone happy--with the exception of those who think the clamp isn't tight enough until you dimple the wood :)

D.

[allan kuntz]

Be sure your idea Dan

[allan kuntz]

If I could only type as fast as i think. I meant to say be sure you share your idea Dan