GRK Fasteners.

[Matt Mackinnon]

Every so often, someone revives a very old thread and I can only assume its from doing a search on something and it gets captured in the results list. The latest one was on sq. drive screws (robertson)

I am interested in what others use. I have gone from the side of cheapest is best, to you really get what you pay for. Its not that I use many screws in my day to day woodworking, but when I do, I want to make sure that what is getting used will stand the test of time. Recently I purchased a set of GRK screws and gave them a try. They have their own style driver that is a colour coded star shape, and was blown away at how well it worked. There was ZERO cam out in driving the screw in, and with the design of the screw, it didn't require any pre-drilled holes, and there was no cracking of the wood. I was using a finishing screw that has a tiny head, and as it set perfectly flush with the wood, it became almost invisible to the piece.

Later I needed a set of really heavy duty screws of assembling a shed. Again, I paid for the GRK and got some of the very heavy R4 style. The 4" screws went in like butter even with my 12v cordless driver. I was very impressed. But more so when I was half way done and realized that I screwed up and installed a wall wrong and had to take it out. Normally a set of screws that have been used once, the heads once taken out are shot and you toss the screw. (both philips and robertson style) These GRK looked like they were still never used. The star drivers work like magic. Over the course of building this shed I had some screws that I drove in 6-7 times as it worked really well to use a screw at a temporary holding pin rather than standard practice of a smaller nail that you can easily bang out.

GRK screws are about 30% more expensive than regular screws. But if I can get better hold with less work to use them and a better looking finish at the end, then I think they are saving me money in the long run.

What do you use?

[Jay Jolliffe]

GRK screws are all I use. They may cost more but they work better for me. You do have to match the right bit for the screw. On some of the trim heads they use the red bit but the gold also fits until you have to put some tork on them then strip out.

[David Kumm]

GRK and SPAX are the best things HD sells. Worth the price just for the smile it puts on me. The SPAX mdf and hardwood screws really don't split maple when driven 1/4" from the end of the board and I've yet to break one.Dave

[Rich Engelhardt]

I have a love/hate relationship with Spax.

I learned the hard way Spax screws won't draw to pieces of material together like ordinary lags will.

Once you figure that out though, Spax are the greatest things since sliced bread.

[Sam Murdoch]

Yes - they are my favorites too. I love it that these can be driven in and out and still be good to use and I am a big fan of torque drives. Don't use them exclusively as I have good enough screws for cabinetry that are not GRK expensive. I do use the GRK trim head screws for all kinds of work, cabinetry and furniture included and the R4 multi purpose screws for multi purposes wherever and whenever I need an easy to drive rugged screw. No question that the GRKs are my go to screw for any type exterior building or staging or 2x construction type work. Will also start using the GRK #10s Rugged Structural Screws with the washer head for install of cabinetry.
Yup - I like 'em. +1

[Jeff Duncan]

I still have just about every type of head there is in use and don't see it changing anytime soon:o I do use a LOT of Spax screws as well as Hafele's self drilling square head screws. My confirmats have a cross slot type of head which has it's own driver. Then I have GRK's for installing ladder frames where I want more moisture resistance and better drive torque. I have hardware screws for slides and such which have phillips heads and some of the 1/4" toggle bolts for wall anchors still have good ole' fashioned slotted heads. The only screws I really don't use much at all are drywall screws....unless I'm installing drywall that is;)

There's a lot of different types of screws and fasteners and they don't all work the same. As mentioned Spax don't work like a 'normal' screw, which is a good thing as they're so much better! Confirmats don't work like anything else and have little in the way of adjustability once there in. Brass screws require a fairly precise pre-drill or you'll strip the heck out of them....etc.,etc.. You have to become familiar with the different screws and how they're used in order to be successful with them.

good luck,
JeffD

[Matt Meiser]

Watching this thread because I've become disillusioned with McFeely's since they started selling Chinese screws and sold out to Grainger who seems intent on downplaying that product and turning the company into just another overpriced mail-order tool store.

I've been interested in GRK screws but have had a little trouble figuring out their product line. What does everyone use for general cabinetry/furniture construction?

SPAX I've used when I need something I can get locally since both Menards and Home Depot have them. I can't quite figure out their heads--seems to be a combo square/phillips recess, or maybe its Posidrive and I just need some new bits but I'm not thrilled with the recess fit on screwdrivers and bits. Still better than junk screws. I used the lags to mount my small lumber racks and really liked those. I tried to get my local hardware to carry them a couple times but they keep stocking the Chinese junk because they don't think people will pay the premium. In 6/8/10 wood screws its hit and miss whether the right length is available locally.

[peter gagliardi]

I really,really don't like finding a different bit for every different screw I use. So, about 15 years ago, maybe more, I found a company called Gardner Screw in Gardner, MA. I get their Robertson drive screws- square drive, they are very tough and very rarely break, and are inexpensive. They have all the common lengths, and different shank diameters- I use the heaviest they have, as all my work is hardwood. I use upwards of 15-20,000 screws a year, and I keep square drive bits and Philips handy for about 95% of the work. I recently tried the Wurth ASSY screws- torx head, and small diameter, but good quality. Pricey!, but have their uses
Peter

[David Kumm]

SPAX are star drive just like GRK. I agree that SPAX work best when things are clamped together but they are strong for their size. Dave

[Matt Meiser]

SPAX are star drive just like GRK. I agree that SPAX work best when things are clamped together but they are strong for their size. Dave

Some might be but not the bulk of what my Menards carries in small screws. Lags are.

[David Kumm]

Some might be but not the bulk of what my Menards carries in small screws. Lags are.

Mine come from HD because that is close but you are right. I think there are a million versions. Dave

[Andrew Joiner]

They have their own style driver that is a colour coded star shape, and was blown away at how well it worked. There was ZERO cam out in driving the screw in, and with the design of the screw, it didn't require any pre-drilled holes, and there was no cracking of the wood.




What do you use?

My local lumber yard has Power Pro brand with a Torx head. They perform like the GRK Matt likes.
I first tried them 10 years ago and I'm still amazed every time I drive one.

[Michael W. Clark]

Im interested in the GRKs and SPAX too. Ive had good results with the square drive McFeelyS and like their site for ordering. Hate the catalogue with the overpriced power tools.

Used some 4" Timberlock screws on a recent deck project. They were washer headed with hex drive and came with an impact hex bit. Very pleased with their quality.

[Peter Quinn]

I use Grk's for hanging cabinets, assembling door jambs, general construction, and I use their trim head screws exclusively now for any application requiring a trim screw. They really are the best thing going. I've tried spax, not jumping up and down about those, some of the lags are handy, I used some 'spax by Simpson" flat head lags recently, those were fantastic, used them to build the timber frame roof over a recent entry build. Similar to fasten master lags. For carcus assembly and general shop work I use square drive deerwood ultimates, they are the best value IME in terms of cost to performance. I don't need grk's to hold plywood together, so I don't spend money there.

i got a box of power pro branded exterior #10 3 1/2" deck screws in a pinch at my local true value once, those have proven to be great screws too, they get used for entry jambs to pull the legs to threshold. Good and not so expensive.

[Michael Wildt]

McFeely, just sent out a new catalog, drumroll.... GRK is on the front page.

I get GRK at the local lumber yard or Rockler when sale is ongoing

[Matt Meiser]

Just saw the new McFeely's catalog at lunch.

Looks like the R4's are their general screw but they are designed to countersink. How well does that work in hardwoods and plywoods? I usually use Snappy drills with countersinks--no longer needed? Or if I do, do they want to still cut into the countersink recess?

I see Home Depot has the 1-1/4x8. I think I'll pick up a box and try them.

[Jim Neeley]

Watching this thread because I've become disillusioned with McFeely's since they started selling Chinese screws and sold out to Grainger who seems intent on downplaying that product and turning the company into just another overpriced mail-order tool store.

I'm with you, Matt. A couple of weeks ago I decided it was time to flesh out my "in stock" screw assortment, so went to my McFeely's catalog and was most disappointed at what I saw. :-(

[Grant Wilkinson]

I've used both spax and GRK, and the heads are not the same. The Spax uses a posi-drive bit,that is a sort of combo phillips and robertson. The GRK use Torx bits. They are not interchangeable.

[David Kumm]

I've used both spax and GRK, and the heads are not the same. The Spax uses a posi-drive bit,that is a sort of combo phillips and robertson. The GRK use Torx bits. They are not interchangeable.

The SPAX wood to wood or wood to masonry screws are combo head. The MDF or hardwood which I use have a T 20 Torx head. I prefer those but can't say they are better. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

One nice thing about the spax screws I've bought, they don't back out or let go ever. All those little micro ridges on the threads sure do grip. I find they are a little tougher getting started and going in than GRK's, and the ones I use don't counter sink as well either. They just haven't filled a real need in my line up. I sure wish my local HD carried GRK, they have the spax, some real garbage SS screws that strip and snap like tooth picks, and little else. But its a small store as big boxes go, perhaps they will get there. Luckily the pro lumber yard stocks a pretty full line up, not sure its the best price, but in my town its the only price.

[Larry Edgerton]

I am the #1 GRK buyer at my main supplier, I use about $2500-3500 a year.

I like'em........:)

Larry

[Matt Meiser]

Back from my Home Depot. Their GRK R4 lineup starts at 2". I bought some of those to try. If nothing else I know I can get some good construction screws now. They have a decent selection of pan-head screws down to about 1-1/4 from GRK too.

One disappointment--they are Made in Taiwan. Don't know why but I was under the impression they were made in Canada. Maybe some are?

[Ryan Baker]

I sure wish my local HD carried GRK, they have the spax, some real garbage SS screws that strip and snap like tooth picks, and little else.

Wait a bit longer and they will probably get the GRK stuff. HD seems to be rolling them out. My local store just recently added some. I'm glad to see that, but I hope they expand the selection a bit. My store seems to have mainly trim screws and small stuff in GRK and large stuff in SPAX. The smaller SPAX stuff is all Phillips/combo drive, and I try hard to avoid those any more. Torx is my choice by far. Robertson would be the clear second choice. Phillips only if I have no choice, and slotted over my dead body.

[Ty Williams]

I learned the hard way Spax screws won't draw to pieces of material together like ordinary lags will.
That's because the Spax screws work well enough they're telling you that you picked the wrong screw.

If your desire is to draw the two sides of the joint together, the screw must be sized to that the "top" (one nearest the head of the screw) side of the joint has NO THREADS in it. When sized correctly, all the threads are in the lower piece. The blind shaft simply rotates in the upper piece. The tightening/draw-down in the joint is a result of the top piece of the joint becoming "clamped" between the head of the screw and the bottom piece of the joint. When you have threads in both pieces, the threads actually work to preserve the spacing between the two sides of the joint that existed at the moment that the screw bit into the lower piece. Think of using bolts. A bolted joint that needs to be in compression (what you're trying to do) ALWAYS has one blind side of the joint (either a blind section on the bolt or a blind oversized hole). This is why the varying length screws also have a varying length of blind section under the head. You pick the screw that gives you no threads inside your "top" piece OR you oversize the hole in the top piece so the threads don't bite. So if you're screwing 1/2" ply to a 2x4, you need to pick a screw with a minimum of a 1/2" blind section under the head. If you're screwing two 2x4s together in a lap joint, you need to have a minimum of 1.5" of blind section under the head of the screw.

The reason you've probably gotten away with having some screw threads in each half of the joint in the past is that screws with less well designed threads than Spax will often just strip out of the side they have less threads in.


To clear up some of the other stuff in this thread:

Menards carries the Phillips-like pan-head, flat-head, and cheese head fully threaded screws in zinc coat and (some) in some sort of a green coating for outdoor. Additionally, they carry the Spax Powerlag models of Structural Screws, which are Torx headed, in both yellow zinc and the green outdoor coating. However, they fail by not carrying any of the Torx-headed normal wood screws.

Home Depot carries the Phillips-like pan-head, flat-head, and cheese head fully threaded screws in zinc coat and (some) in some sort of a green coating for outdoor. They also carry #6, #8, #10, and (limited) #12 yellow zinc coated flat head, partially threaded screws in lengths from 1.25" to 3.5" all with a Torx head. They also carry the traditional male-hex-headed, outdoor coated lag bolts. Finally, they do have some of the Powerlag Structural Screws, but not nearly as big of a selection as Menards.


The torx-headed, yellow-zinc, partially threaded #8 and #10 screws are FANTASTIC as normal day to day screws for doing things like knocking together shelves out of 2x4s, hanging entry doors in houses, etc. Basically rough carpentry and framing work. I also use them for anything they're not too big for because they're so easy to use. Due to the special design of the screw itself, they will bore down through just about anything without pre-drilling. They track straight, start easy, and I've never broken one, even when sinking a 3" #8 all the way into rock maple with no pre-drilling. Ditto for the Torx head. You'll never want to use a Phillips head again after you drive 2-3 torx headed screws. The bit never jumps out of the screw head, they never strip out, they tolerate pretty substantial misalignment between the screw and the tool, and they require almost no downpressure on the tool to keep it in the head of the screw. Honestly, the weight of the drill with no pressure from me sank that 3" screw into the slab of rock maple.

Their Phillips-headed products are far and away the best Phillips-headed screws I've ever used, much lower number of damaged heads. However, they're still a distant second because Phillips is probably the worst head/tool profile ever developed.

Finally, if you haven't started using Structural Screws (any brand, but I do favor Spax), try them out. They're basically a lag that doesn't suck. Wide head, so they get tighter before htey crush into the wood (effectively like a large fender washer). No pre-drilling, so they go in faster than a lag. Higher strength steel, so they don't break like lags often will. Special thread design so they hold into wood better than a lag will. I've started using more and more of these now that I've discovered them. They're especially nice for things like shelves to store solid metal objects on or workbenches made out of dimensional pine lumber. They zip right in and the large head creates such a tight joint that the resulting piece is SOLID and won't loosen up over time due to racking slowly pulling the head into the wood.

[Rich Engelhardt]

That's because the Spax screws work well enough they're telling you that you picked the wrong screwYep - like I mentioned, once I figured out the why - I think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
The downside of them is that they can't be used in a lot of places due to that need for ample blind space on the lag.
I had to lag a 4x4 post to a 2x8 deck skirt & had no access to the back side (the 2x6 side).
That meant I had to clamp the 4x4 somehow to the 2x8, or, use an 8" long Spax & have like 3" of the screw come out the back side of the 2x8.

I ended up clamping the 4x4 and driving one Spax in part way, then driving another in part way, then alternating between the two to draw the 4x4 nice and tight.
It ended up being more diddling around than just drilling it out and using bolts or a regular lag - but - since the 4x4 was treated, I wanted to use the coated Spax.
I'm not 100% convinced galvanized is ok for treated - but - that's just me & stainless is just too expensive...

Anywho - Spax screws simply rock.
I drove a total of sixteen 6" Power Lags using my 18V (NiCad) DeWalt cordless drill and it didn't even begin to put a strain on the drill.
Sixteen regular 5/16" by 6" long lags would have really pushed that drill. I've done half that number before & that was about the limit.
Plus,,,,I 'd have had to go back and snug it all up with a socket no matter what.
The Spax just went in about as easy as driving a 2.5" deck screw & it was all done...no muss/no fuss & no follow up with a socket.

[Matt Meiser]

They also carry #6, #8, #10, and (limited) #12 yellow zinc coated flat head, partially threaded screws in lengths from 1.25" to 3.5" all with a Torx head.

Not at mine.

[Dan Neuhaus]

I have 2 HD's within 15 minutes of my house and only one of them carries GRK's, both of them have a pretty full selection of Spax. If I need screws I go out of my way to go the store with the GRK's. I'm in the middle of a an almost full gut of my 130 year old farmhouse and have used about 10 boxes of #10 GRK R4 screws and have yet to break one or strip one out. As was mentioned, you can pull them out and reuse them, which is a huge bonus during a remodeling project. I've also used several boxes of the 5/16' RSS lags. There the greatest structural screw invented imho. Spax are good but these things are actually fun to drive. I've used dozens connecting LVL's for beams and ledgers and there really impressive.

[Matt Meiser]

Well, I'm in love...

268600

#8x2" GRK R4 screws. Top is a piece of hard maple, no drilling or countersinking. A little fluff on the edges which I think would sand right off. Not sure I'd actually not drill but you could. Bottom is 2 pieces of ply, no drilling or countersinking. I'd totally accept that appearance for screws that wouldn't be seen after installation--and rarely use screws that would be seen.

For single handed use square drive might be a little more stable on the bit.

I do expect that without pre-drilling battery life won't be as good.

So what's a good mail-order source? Home Depot by me doesn't carry the smaller ones. McFeely's I believe is more expensive than Home Depot--might as well have the Depot order the ones I need instead. Surely someone beats the pants off both price-wise? I checked the locator on GRK's site. of the 5 listings it shows me, 3 are the same place listed 3 times and one has been out of business a good 10-15 years. :confused:

[Todd Davidson]

One nice thing about the spax screws I've bought, they don't back out or let go ever. All those little micro ridges on the threads sure do grip. I find they are a little tougher getting started and going in than GRK's, and the ones I use don't counter sink as well either. They just haven't filled a real need in my line up. I sure wish my local HD carried GRK, they have the spax, some real garbage SS screws that strip and snap like tooth picks, and little else. But its a small store as big boxes go, perhaps they will get there. Luckily the pro lumber yard stocks a pretty full line up, not sure its the best price, but in my town its the only price.

At least the "new" Lowes in Torrington fills some of the voids left by us having the smallest Home Depot ever built.....

[pat warner]

"finish at the end, then I think they are saving me money in the long run. What do you use? "
**********************************************
Socket head cap screws.
(http://patwarner.com/images/tsweb4767.jpg)Yes, in wood, metal & plastic.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Tks for the clarification, David. The only spax that I've tried use the posidrive head and I find them to be just about as bad as Phillips. Good Robertson heads work well, I find, but I didn't realize until recently that there is a true Robertson and a square, and they are not the same. The "mortise" on a true Robertson head tapers and allows the bit to really hold well. The square is just a straight sided "mortise".

[Matt Mackinnon]

Lee Valley also sells the full GRK line of screws. Some times they are cheaper than HD, other times they are not.

[Matt Meiser]

Not sure if this changed in the last day or so or if I didn't notice it before. Home Depot has basically all GRK R4's shorter than 2" listed as discontinued online.