What would you price this job at?

[Ethan Melad]

Hi all,

I'm currently working on building a glass panel 'cabinet' door with a fixed arched transom and 1x2" jamb. The door is about 5' tall and the arch has a 12" radius. It's all solid cherry with bent laminated arches and is getting installed into an existing brick opening, thus creating an enclosed cabinet. I'm wondering what some of you out there might charge for this job.


I'm a one-man shop and my business is in its beginning stages, so I don't really have any reference for pricing a project like this. At this point I've been basically pricing materials and estimating labor hours, which I think is pretty accurate, but I'd be curious as to what others might estimate. I've already got this job, but wonder if my price is on the high or low end of the spectrum.


Thanks


268322268323

[Jamie Buxton]

I'd make the door frame thicker -- 1", not 3/4". It will help make the tall door feel less flimsy, and it will leave more meat for the screws which hold the glass stop. I'd also make the frame wider, if the homeowners will allow. The corner joints are the only thing holding that door together. Even better would be a glued-in plywood panel near the bottom -- maybe 6" tall. That plywood panel will really resist the wracking from the weight of the door and the glass.

I'd also rethink making the frame arch with bent lamination. To make the laminates bend around a 7" radius or so, they'll need to be like a fat sixteenth thick. If the frame lamination is 2" wide, you'll need thirty of them.

[Ethan Melad]

the door frame is drawn at 7/8", not 3/4". aesthetically, i'd prefer rails and stiles to be no more than 2" wide. panel at the bottom is a possibility, but i'm not looking for a multi-panel look. the door will see very little use, as it's basically a door to a display cabinet.

you're right about the lamination - i am planning on laminating the thinner 'jamb' and mitering the 2" top frame arch. the radius is 12", not 7".

thanks for the input, but my question is primarily about pricing of this job.

[John Lanciani]

Are you installing or just building it? Depending on the site, installation could be the expensive part of the deal. What about the finish?

ETA; Location? Price would be quite different if you're close to Boston as opposed to Springfield.

[Richard Coers]

It seems you are apprehensive about the estimating, so the more appropriate question would be, "How long would it take you to build this?" No one knows what equipment you have, how fast you work, what joinery methods you prefer, what you pay for rent, insurance, utilities, what percent profit you want to make...............The list is extensive for figuring overhead. Read more business books or blogs. Accurate estimating takes years to get right. Hard learned mistakes will teach you quickly. Asking estimating advice on the internet is just as accurate as asking legal advice. Lots of answers, none of them accurate for your work.

[Dennis Ford]

I don't have years of estimating experience and have been burned in the past, so this is worth what it costs. The project appears fairly simple to make as drawn, your time and material estimate should easily cover that. You got the job so don't worry about that now.
My concerns would be:
* Is the brick opening straight and square? If so that is unusual, if not; the complexity of building and installing this goes up a lot.
* Do you have to scribe fit the arch to brick?
* This door that you expect to be used "very little" will not be very strong, will you be stuck with repairs/replacement if it fails. If it fails, what will that do to your reputation?

[John TenEyck]

With the preface that I don't have to eat from my woodworking, but I do expect to be fairly compensated for my work - $900 finished and installed, assuming it requires no or little scribing. I would make the bottom rail wider, and use 3 hinges, mostly to assure that the stile stays straight.

John

[Wade Lippman]

I don't know anything about estimating; the few pieces I have sold were for cost plus a few bucks an hour, mainly for fun.
But I have a question about the construction.

Wouldn't it be an awful lot cheaper to cut the arch out of solid wood than a bent lamination? It would be much weaker, but I don't see that area would require any strength.

[Ethan Melad]

Thanks everyone, i appreciate the input.
I guess I wouldn't say that I'm apprehensive about estimating - although I know I'm not even close to perfect - but more just curious as to where I fall relative to others. So yes, exactly: how long would it take you to build this?

I can figure what I need my price to be based on materials, overhead, labor, etc, but I always seem to wonder if i'm higher in price or lower than others. I realize that there are many variables that would alter the result, but this is really just a matter of curiosity.

I am building and installing, and the finish is shellac and SW Kem-Aqua Plus. I'm a little west of Worcester.


I do expect to be fairly compensated for my work - $900 finished and installed

thanks john, thats right about where i am with this, maybe a little less.

I dont want to cut the arch from a solid piece, as the grain would then not follow the curve. i'll probably miter 3 or 4 sections for the thicker curve as a compromise between using horizontal grain and lamination.

Thanks again

[Peter Quinn]

$1200 for door and jamb, in cherry, unfinished, glass and hardware on top of that, install charged separately if required. I'm seeing easy 30 hours there ready to finish, if you can do it quicker your a rock star. I'm charging $40/hour minimum if I like the job and client, if the client is difficult you must remember to add a 'needy freak' surcharge, you will have earned it. Easy going gets the no bs price.

You could spend nearly $1200 on hardware and glass. Or less, but dont leave it up in the air if its understood to be included. In fact there was one job at work in the past where the skitzo client approved/requested via her architect bevel edge waterford crystal for two doors of similar size but more complex, glass cost was $25k! She freaked when glass bill arrived, but here signature was clear on the contract.

On the construction front, I'd make the frame thicker, you'll be using 5/4 anyway to get your rails, keep the door strong, save some saw dust, shoot for 1 1/16....looks more like furniture less like home depot. And skip the bent lamination arch. Fixed sash? No need, looks bad with all those glue lines, better off with a bridle or half lap from a single piece of wide stock, or 3 segment arch. If you do the bent lamination and you don't want it to look like a framing glue lam you have to veneer both faces....just broke the budget, now it's a $1700 door.

[John Lanciani]

Peter summed it up nicely and I agree. I wouldn't take the job for less than $2000 installed and that is only if the opening is very close to plumb and square. You could easily eat up the better part of a day installing it, and field hours are always more expensive than shop hours (for me anyways, I hate doing site work in finished homes as there is much more risk involved) Are you insured for site work?

What are you figuring on for glass? For a piece that big tempered glass ($$) is almost a must, definitely if there are children in the home. (there's that risk again)

[Peter Quinn]

In my area if it swings its safety glass, tempered or laminate. Tempered usually costs more and takes longer. Laminate blocks most UV light which is an added benifit for a display case. In CT to enter a home and hang a fixture of any kind you must have a license for remodeling, which involves proof of insurance. Put one screw in a wall, thats a fixture, requires a license. I know lots of guys who have flown under that radar for decades, others that try to avoid installs, prefering to leave that to contractors but do it occasionally, and a very few that have been sued hard and been fined for operating withou license. Best to be aware at least of your local laws and responsibilities.

i was thinking about the arch transom, I may not have been clear, I assume the jamb head will be a bent lamination, for the sash frame I would not make the curve up that way for reasons stated prior. Adding a brick scribe to the arched jamb headis always a joy. We make the head thicker and rabbit the back out to creat a scribe.

[Chris Fournier]

There are details missing as others have pointed out. $900 wouldn't be near enough for me. My shop rate is $65.00/hour. I will retire when I drop. If you think that you need to develop your resume so be it but coming in cheap pigeon holes you as inexpensive to hire - not good. If you're a craftsman you deserve a living wage and then some! Best of luck with the job and let us know how you fare.

[Trevor Remster]

I have done many similar jobs and I have to agree with Peter, John & Chris, $900.00 is waaaay too cheap. $1800-$2,000 install without finish, glass, or hardware. Brick opening is always more difficult too. Check it first if you can. Otherwise I would add an extra $360.00 to cover myself. Of course I don't know your personal situation either. Like what your skill level is, reputation or how badly you need the job.

[bruce erdman]

Are you providing the glass and what kind of glass is it?

[bruce erdman]

I believe your question was about pricing. But instead you are getting design advice. Cool, isn't it?

[Jerry Toschlog]

I have always been taught when opening a new business the best way to price, if you are unsure, is to have everything on sale. Then when you do set your pricing and people comment you simply tell them that was a sale price. Otherwise if you charge 50% more to the the next customer, people will be upset.

[Ethan Melad]

Thanks everyone, I was out of town for the week.
Full disclosure: this is for my in-laws. They don't at all mind paying for the work, but at the same time I don't want feel like i'm gouging them. it's interesting to know what others charge, as a reference for this job as well as for future jobs.

Since this job is for family, i'm not worried about any potential liability issues, but will probably go with tempered or laminated glass for general safety.
Peter - I did plan on bending the jamb and doing a segmented sash.
If I could charge $65/hr I would, but thats not going to get me any jobs around here - and right now making a little less is better than making nothing.

edit: so i posted this question in another forum and it was not received particularly well. i appear to be "shopping around" for pricing. if it looks that way, sorry. no need to comment on the thread further. maybe i should have framed the question more accurately, but i was essentially looking for for others thoughts about how long a job like this might take them.

thanks again

[johnny means]

If I could charge $65/hr I would, but thats not going to get me any jobs around here - and right now making a little less is better than making nothing.



QUIT NOW! Unless you enjoy investing all your time and effort into a failing endeavor. How much do you pay for automotive work? Plumbing? Electrical? I bet its well over $65 an hour. They're not even maintaining a dedicated work space in addition to a vehicle.

Anyway, I would be in the 2-3K range.

[Ethan Melad]

QUIT NOW! Unless you enjoy investing all your time and effort into a failing endeavor. How much do you pay for automotive work? Plumbing? Electrical? I bet its well over $65 an hour. They're not even maintaining a dedicated work space in addition to a vehicle.

Anyway, I would be in the 2-3K range.

I do fully intend on marketing my furniture to a demographic that could afford shop rates of 65+/hr, but i do not think most local clients in my location can support architectural woodwork/cabinetry at prices like that. if i find that i'm wrong, i'll adjust my pricing accordingly.

[Duane Meadows]

QUIT NOW! Unless you enjoy investing all your time and effort into a failing endeavor. How much do you pay for automotive work? Plumbing? Electrical? I bet its well over $65 an hour. They're not even maintaining a dedicated work space in addition to a vehicle.

Anyway, I would be in the 2-3K range.

Oh, my! So your electrician and plumber come to your house on roller skates? They work out of a P.O. box? Get your automotive work done in someone's driveway? At $900 Give or take, it's not like he is doing it for free! The $2-3k stuff would not fly around here too much either. If it works for you, more power to you.

And go ahead flame if you must... I can take it!

[Joe Shinall]

Oh, my! So your electrician and plumber come to your house on roller skates? They work out of a P.O. box? Get your automotive work done in someone's driveway? At $900 Give or take, it's not like he is doing it for free! The $2-3k stuff would not fly around here too much either. If it works for you, more power to you.

And go ahead flame if you must... I can take it!

Amen! Some people nowadays just can't afford top dollar and I'd rather make money than nothing at all.

[John Lanciani]

...At $900 Give or take, it's not like he is doing it for free!..

Not free, but pretty close to minimum wage. At that point I'd rather work at Home Depot.:(

[johnny means]

Oh, my! So your electrician and plumber come to your house on roller skates? They work out of a P.O. box? Get your automotive work done in someone's driveway? At $900 Give or take, it's not like he is doing it for free! The $2-3k stuff would not fly around here too much either. If it works for you, more power to you.

And go ahead flame if you must... I can take it!

My plumber doesn't maintain a shop and my mechanic doesn't deliver. My point is unlike these trades, the lowly woodworker is expected to sell him/herself cheap, yet, is expected to provide manufacturing, design, as well as on-site services. The OPs price on that job just doesn't, in anyway, represent cost plus a professionals wage.

Here's how my cost would break down

Tempered glass pane $100
4 days shop cost $320
Lumber $50

Now, one could say he's making $400 or so. But, really, he could have spent the week at Lowes and at least get some benefits, workmans comp, unlemployment insurance and a a lot less stress and no time spent chasing dead ends.

The OP asked what some of us would price his job at. I have to assume he's looking for advice and critique on his choices. Some of us who have been there, done that, and do it everyday know and recognize that the "Something is better than nothing approach" is a bridge to nowhere.

[Ethan Melad]

Johnny & John, you're right- I could maybe make more at a crappy retail job. But that sure isn't what I want to be doing. I'd rather build up experience, references, inventory, and make a little bit of money. Seems like a bridge to somewhere to me.

I do appreciate advice on business practice - but theres no reason at all to claim that this is a failing endeavor without any knowledge of my personal and financial situation. I will always continue to refine and improve the way my business runs, and believe me, i'll be the first to know if it's failing. Right now it's not.

[Mark Bolton]

Johnny & John, you're right- I could maybe make more at a crappy retail job. But that sure isn't what I want to be doing. I'd rather build up experience, references, inventory, and make a little bit of money. Seems like a bridge to somewhere to me.

I do appreciate advice on business practice - but theres no reason at all to claim that this is a failing endeavor without any knowledge of my personal and financial situation. I will always continue to refine and improve the way my business runs, and believe me, i'll be the first to know if it's failing. Right now it's not.


Ethan,
Most of the information you've received (from both of your posts) has merit. I was born and raised about 40 minutes from your location so I can completely understand your issues with feeling you cant bill at the hourly rates suggested. Sadly its just the simple fact that those numbers are reasonably accurate for the mere cost of being "in business" in nearly every locale. You can delude yourself all you want that your overhead and location somehow allow you to devalue your work but hopefully if you stick with this, in-time, you'll see that these are the numbers you need to be charging. If you cant, your either working too slow, or taking on work thats simply not profitable for your shops capabilities.

Your location definitely makes it tough and means if your going to pursue a bit of high-end furniture making you're looking at a lot of traveling to pedal your wares (read major overhead). East of 128, Amherst to the west (where your just another cog in the wheel), depending on your work may have a little luck in sturbridge but doubtful, and so on. Perhaps you need to really sit down and work on a focused business model that is in keeping with your geographic location. It may result in you making a bit of work that you are really not interested in to pay the bills, and allows you a small percentage of time to do the more interesting things.

The "crappy retail job" may really wind up being the best option while you get things off the ground. That said, I can only assume those are a good hike for you as well though I havent been in your area for 12+ years. Things may have changed.

Good Luck

[Jeff Duncan]

I think the reason guys are calling it a "failing endeavor" is not b/c they're trying to insult you, (at least I hope not), but b/c they're trying to help you see the light before you make the mistakes. Anyone who's started their own business in this industry has made similar mistakes along the way. So although sometimes it comes off as harsh, it's a way to try and get guys pointed in the right direction sooner rather than later. The truth of the matter is many shops that close don't know their failing until it's too late! Unfortunately I don't know if it's really possible to steer guys around those mistakes:confused: I don't want my son to fall down while he's learning to ride his bike, but it's just part of the process he has to go through in order to achieve the goal:o

I somewhat agree with Johnny, although the others are right in that some areas cannot support high end prices, your area can, so that's not a problem! Electricians and plumbers work from trucks and have small home offices or sometimes small commercial offices. They absolutely have overhead and usually keep common parts stocked which costs as well. However you can't really compare their overhead to a well equipped woodworking shop. A wood shop is an expensive start up and always needs to be maintained and upgraded. However the woodworker does not go to school for a license, and so some try to take advantage of that aspect. It's up to the individual shop to be able to demand a fair paycheck. My shop is pretty small and I try to keep overhead low, it still costs me about $100 a day to have a shop....whether I'm working or not!

I don't know your specific town, but I do know the area can absolutely support $65 an hour. I work within a 1 hour distance of my shop and have been busy as ever. In fact right now in this area almost everyone is busy! I've had to turn down several jobs that couldn't wait the several months I'm booked out to. I don't advertise and I still haven't even bothered to get a website. Once you've established yourself the work will come! You simply have to establish yourself and have confidence in your ability. You need to be able to look someone in the eye and believe that your worth what your quoting the project at, and not be sheepish. And you have to be willing to walk away from jobs that are not profitable. I know you've already bid this job so now it's a matter of building it, keep track of your hours and materials used, and you'll be in better shape to build the next project. What you have to understand is that if you keep your prices low to get the work, that's what you'll become known for. And once your known for being the "cheap guy" you will have your reputation established.....just not the one you want!

I think this thread has been a good reference that shows not only what others charge, but how they would build something, (or how long it would take), can be vastly different between different shops. Keep at it and make sure you don't sell yourself short. It may take several years to really get churning full speed, but with persistence and good business practice you can get there!

good luck,
JeffD

[Ethan Melad]

Thanks guys,

I know i've been a little defensive but I do appreciate the input. I think one problem thing about internet forums is that no one can your exact situation, which can lead to broad generalizations and somewhat fatalistic declarations. While there are surely "rules" to follow when starting and running a business, I think those rules have latitude and need to be adapted for individual situations.

In my specific situation, I am working with very low overhead (for sure not even close to $100/day, Jeff) and I'm very lucky to be in this situation. I am passionate about building fine furniture, and am using smaller jobs like this glass door, bathroom cabinetry, etc to help build a portfolio and fund the creation of studio pieces that I can then show. I think you are right that I should not sell myself short, nor let myself be known as the cheap guy, and thats something I should look at more closely. At the same time, I am hoping to use these smaller, cheaper jobs as a stepping stone to something fairly different rather than continue with architectural/cabinetry work.

Again, I appreciate the help, and hope to glean more information from those of you who have been in the business longer than I have.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks guys,

I know i've been a little defensive but I do appreciate the input. I think one problem thing about internet forums is that no one can your exact situation, which can lead to broad generalizations and somewhat fatalistic declarations. While there are surely "rules" to follow when starting and running a business, I think those rules have latitude and need to be adapted for individual situations.

In my specific situation, I am working with very low overhead (for sure not even close to $100/day, Jeff) and I'm very lucky to be in this situation. I am passionate about building fine furniture, and am using smaller jobs like this glass door, bathroom cabinetry, etc to help build a portfolio and fund the creation of studio pieces that I can then show. I think you are right that I should not sell myself short, nor let myself be known as the cheap guy, and thats something I should look at more closely. At the same time, I am hoping to use these smaller, cheaper jobs as a stepping stone to something fairly different rather than continue with architectural/cabinetry work.

Again, I appreciate the help, and hope to glean more information from those of you who have been in the business longer than I have.

Ethan,
I have long been beating the drum that location has a tremendous amount to do with how a shop is setup, pricing, tooling, and so on, and even more so have argued that what the shop owner/makers "wants" are from the business have a major impact on how a shop moves as compared to other, lets say, more commercial shops. I recently had an exchange about this on the other site you posted. I am a firm believer in the fact that your location, overhead (to an extent), access to goods and services, all effect your shops bottom line to the positive AND negative.

That said, there simply are some well established constants. There are pretty solid base numbers for simply what it costs to be in business. Regardless of how anyone fudges the numbers, $45/hour for shop time is simply about the lowest reasonable number you will see tossed about when you take into consideration being a "legitimate business". This means planning for growth, paying your state and local taxes, not relying on a spouses income, not thinking because your shop is at your house its "Free" and so on. After that, its my experience that if your at 45/hr you better have a phenomenally tight belt buckle because there is little room for waste or error. If your lucky enough to skim 25% off that 45 for yourself your making 11 bucks an hour.

You'll figure it out over time. And its a great thing that your overhead is low so you wont have too far to fall if you do decide it isnt the path you'll take at the moment.

The whole trick in my opinion is to be brutally honest with yourself. If your not, or try to see only what you want to see, your sunk.

[Val Kosmider]

Let me give you a serious piece of advice: They are not asking, apparently, but because of the 'social' relationship with the customer, I would seriously consider doing this job as a pro bono project. Charge them for the materials, take a lot of pictures to beef up your portfolio, and throw in your labor as a 'cost of keeping the peace in the family.' Not many here going to agree with this, but working for family, regardless of the pleasantries, never works out well in the long run. (It is sort of like lending money to your brother)> You just can't win....even if on day one they are very pleased. "He charged us. It is too big/small/thick/thin. The color was 'close', but we would have liked....The glass broke, and we told him if he had just made........" You see where I am headed? Weeks, months, years from now something will come back to haunt you about this project. 'No charge' makes for a lot of 'we're even'.