Lie Nielsen Joinery Floats

[Mike Leung]

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=542

Have you guys tried these for fitting mortise and tenon joints? Are these useful or not really needed. I want to use these with QSWO mainly.

[Chris Griggs]

Yes (well I have the 1" plane makers bed float, but I use it as a joinery float). I use it fits fitting M&Ts, dovetails, and any number of trimming tasks that come up. They are the bees knees, the cats meow, and marshmallows in your cocoa! Super handy. Can cut very quickly or very delicately just by varying pressure. You will NEED to file it when new though. They do not come particularly sharp.

They are a fantastic value when you consider how much they can do for such a relatively low entry cost.

I bought mine based on a recommendation from Dave Weaver. So glad I did...LOVE MINE!

I'll add that fitting tenons with them does have some learning curve. You need to be careful not to twist or taper your tenon but if you pay attention to your layout lines and are not sawing way away from your lines thus leaving a ton of material to remove, its all and all a pretty easy task.

[Mike Leung]

Sounds like this will be a useful tool to have for M&T. Have you thought about adding the cranked-neck face float to do face work or is the bed float fine for that task as well? It's interesting that you substituted the cheek float with the bed float. I can see the bed float is much longer and would be able to work in deeper mortices.



Yes (well I have the 1" plane makers bed float, but I use it as a joinery float). I use it fits fitting M&Ts, dovetails, and any number of trimming tasks that come up. They are the bees knees, the cats meow, and marshmallows in your cocoa! Super handy. Can cut very quickly or very delicately just by varying pressure. You will NEED to file it when new though. They do not come particularly sharp.

They are a fantastic value when you consider how much they can do for such a relatively low entry cost.

I bought mine based on a recommendation from Dave Weaver. So glad I did...LOVE MINE!

I'll add that fitting tenons with them does have some learning curve. You need to be careful not to twist or taper your tenon but if you pay attention to your layout lines and are not sawing way away from your lines thus leaving a ton of material to remove, its all and all a pretty easy task.

[Chris Griggs]

I use it predominantly on tenon faces and really like how it works there. I fit tenons either clamped upright in the vise or raised up slightly from the bench so the lack of offset is a non issue. I rarely use it on mortises unless I'm correcting an error as I prefer to fit the tenon to the mortise. The offset on the joinery float is probably handy for tenons and other recessed places put I liked the idea of my hand being in line with the tool and stroke. Mostly I just thought the bed float would be more versatile too. It (the bed float, I have the thinner 3/16") is an interesting tool. It's every so a slightly bellied and has just a touch of flex to it like an old paring chisel. I find that both of those aspects help to yield a flat surface as they counter act the tendency to remove too much material at the edges of the tenon so your less likely to accidentally end up with a torpedo shaped joint.

[Chris Griggs]

One last thing. I don't want to imply that they are the perfect tool for all tenon fitting....just that they are a really really great fine fitting tool for tenons and any number of things. While they can remove material very quickly, if your tenons are really fat or your sawing is really wonky a router plane (what I use in those cases) or some type of wide rabbeting plane (e.g. large shoulder or rabbet block) may be better. The float though is great for when you want to dial things in for a nice slip flt or just even things out a bit. You absolutely can do heavier fitting with it, but accuracy gets harder the more material you remove. They key to success is marking your lines a little smaller than you want your final tenon to be and then sawing just slightly wide or just barely to them when you make your cuts. That way they are there to guide you still during final fitting...if you mark them so that you still need to remove material once they are gone you have nothing to guide your accuracy.

Finally. I forgot to mention. Derek Cohen has a great review of the joinery float and he does a nice comparison between it and other methods of fitting tenons: http://inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Lie%20Nielsen%20Face%20Joinery%20Float.html

[Mike Leung]

Wow great info Chris. I'll give it a try. I do have a low angle rabbeting plane that is use already. The float will be good for fine tuning. Thanks

[David Weaver]

Chris outed my preference already. Can't really say much more than what he's already said about it.

[Chris Griggs]

You'll like it. Even if you find yourself preferring the the rabbet block for tenons you'll find other uses for the float. Mine lives on my bench. Its just a flat out handy tool.

[Chris Hachet]

For someone like myself that has only sharpened flat ended chisels and plane blades, mostly via a honing jig, how difficult is a float to sharpen? I find sharpening by hand without a honing jig a little tedious for skew chisels and the like. Would really like to try floats though, as they do seem like the might be the bees knees when it comes to fitting an M and T joint.

[David Weaver]

You put a chisel in the teeth on the floats, and make sure that it is touching all adjacent tooth surfaces and go until each tooth is bright metal. That's pretty much it.

Larry has a video on it, though if you're not looking to make moulding planes, the video is pretty pricey just to see him sharpening a float. The floats arrive fairly dull, but it takes very very little to get them sharp and ready to go. If you apply the less is more principle as you sharpen them (so as to not just remove all kinds of metal that you shouldn't), they're easy to sharpen. Any decent file will sharpen them (including the mexican nicholsons at the borg). 6xx slim is larry's suggested choice, and I can't disagree with it.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah there's not much to it. Here's the Larry William video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGqDnXVA4c

Liked Dave said less is more. Just file until you have removed the black oxide at the cutting edges. There may still be some black left further down on the teeth...just leave that, it will come of at later filings. What you don't want to do is waste the steel on your nice float or file the teeth all out of joint. If you don't have the right kind of vise for holding the float for filing (i don't) you just cut a very shallow rabbet in a board to act as a back stop as you file and then clamp the float to that. IIRC, LN recommends this and has a little diagram and description of it in the instruction that come with the float.

Really again, its pretty tough to screw it up unless you just aren't paying attention and end up filing away without restraint.

[David Weaver]

I didn't know they provided that sharpening segment for free. Nice of them to take that out of the video and show it.

[Jim Matthews]

I bought a set at the same time with a set of Iwasaki files.

I think the broadest float can be useful, but no more so than a fresh Mill file.
I mostly split and pare tenons these days, so the floats are rarely used.

It's the curse of expensive tools, I'm hesitant to abuse them.

Unless you're making angled mortises as in building wooden body planes,
they're not any more or any less useful than a really good file.

[David Weaver]

A set, as in the set of LN floats?

My best ever purchase for anything file related was a brand new 14" two sided tanged vixen for $1. There was a box of 50 of them, I only bought one - I should've gotten them all. They are a bit too coarse for tenon work, though.

[Chris Griggs]

The Iwasaki's are very nice tools, I have a small half round and adore it. I can't recall Jim, can you get them as wide as the LN floats (so 1")? That was part of what I liked about the floats for joinery work, the 1" width.

[Mike Leung]

I do have some Vixen files and I was trying one on white oak last night. Here are the shavings I got with one that is similar size to the bed float. It is sharp but how long will it stay sharp because I don't know how to resharpen Vixen curved teeth files? Would floats perform better or similar if the Vixen is sharp? I also noticed that the Vixens are slightly rounded off on the corners and the floats are sharp to the edge. hmm.

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[Isaac Smith]

The Vixen files will stay sharp for a long time in wood. I use the heck out of mine, and think they are some of the best tools I have. I have not dulled mine yet, but when I do, I plan to send them out to Boggs to be sharpened.

[Chris Griggs]

I can't tell for sure whether it quite as aggressive as the float but I think it looks close. Honestly, between that and the rabbet block I'm inclined to say skip the float and save yourself $60.

If its as wide as the floats I'm just not sure how much you stand to gain by getting one.

[Sam Murdoch]

If its as wide as the floats I'm just not sure how much you stand to gain by getting one.

Except that the floats are so easy to sharpen and therefore don't require sending them out for a tune up. Still that Vixen file sure looks like it will do the job just as well.
I've got the LN cranked 1" face float and a few smaller sizes of the mortise floats - wonderful tools for tweaking woodworking joints.

[Chris Griggs]

Sam, do you find the offset handle to be of benefit? And also are there time when you think an inline handle would be preferred. Mine being a bed float is in line which appealed to me. Just curious about your experience with the cranked neck aspect.

[Sam Murdoch]

Chris the only thing I can compare to is the 2 smaller floats. I like the feel of the crank but I now know that I need to pay attention to keeping an even pressure as I push. I tend to lift the nose in as I work - not so with the straight ones. The straight handle seems more natural to push (and I'm guessing pull too) in an even straight /flat pass. The cranked handle encourages me to lift the nose. BUT, I like it and have learned to make it float or be more aggressive as I need. It is definitely a tenon tool though and not for mortise work - I guess that goes without saying :).

[Chris Griggs]

Good info as always Sam. Thanks!

[Randy Karst]

A couple of things I guess: First, plus one on a Vixen file if you can find a good one. I ordered what was advertised as an American made Nicholson Vixen File after having been turned on to Vixen Files by Russ Filbeck (Spoke Shave class) - very nice for working both the wood and brass in combination; however, what arrived was a Mexican made file that was not even sharp - returned it. After a little research, I ordered a Simonds (German made), wow, what a difference, sharp and works beautifully-hoping it will holdup as well as what Russ had as his had seen a few years of use and were still sharp. Second, Liogier recently began making Joinery Floats, I ordered one a couple of weeks ago and expect it to arrive soon. It may be an alternative to Lie-Nielsen and of similar quality (not planing to use it on anything but wood). Liogier apparently has a sizable backlog on Rasps but is shipping the Floats.

[Frederick Skelly]

Chris, I recently bought an Iwasaki 10" flat file that measures 15/16" wide. The lable doesnt say so, but I think its a "coarse" cut. But I dont know if thats suitable for joinery.
Fred

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, I recently bought an Iwasaki 10" flat file that measures 15/16" wide. The lable doesnt say so, but I think its a "coarse" cut. But I dont know if thats suitable for joinery.
Fred

Thanks Frederick. That's cool that it is that wide...I was guessing they were more like 3/4. Sure you could use that for joinery. Wider is always nicer for tenons but I doubt the lack of a 16th" would be a very noticeable difference. Where something like that is especially nice is if you have a dovetail that's just a hair fat. Makes it really easy to just remove a tiny bit of material and not cut it out of shape or alignment which is very easy to do when using a chisel for that sorta thing (of coarse, ideally they fit off the saw, but that just doesn't happen 100% of the time)

[Chris Hachet]

You put a chisel in the teeth on the floats, and make sure that it is touching all adjacent tooth surfaces and go until each tooth is bright metal. That's pretty much it.

Larry has a video on it, though if you're not looking to make moulding planes, the video is pretty pricey just to see him sharpening a float. The floats arrive fairly dull, but it takes very very little to get them sharp and ready to go. If you apply the less is more principle as you sharpen them (so as to not just remove all kinds of metal that you shouldn't), they're easy to sharpen. Any decent file will sharpen them (including the mexican nicholsons at the borg). 6xx slim is larry's suggested choice, and I can't disagree with it.
Thanks, I will have to give this a try sometime.

[Mike Leung]

Thanks for all the input guys. Now I need to learn how to use this and remove the surface evenly from side to side and front to back. it is really easy to skew the tenon.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, it is. It goes wherever you put pressure on it, so it will just excavate where you don't want it to if you put the pressure where you don't want to.

It's still important to cut or split the tenons as accurately as possible to preserve their squareness. The straight tooth floats directly across the grain scrape the fibers off so fast that it's easy to overdo it.

[Brian Holcombe]

Are floats particularly useful for trimming end grain? I recently did some interlocking joinery in 10/4 and 8/4 rock maple and trimming the end grain was a hellish procedure. I think I honed my paring chisel daily.

I have a project coming up in white oak with a lot of interlocking joinery and wedged through tenons that I want a precision fit on, so I need to prepare myself tool-wise.

[Brian Ashton]

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=542

Have you guys tried these for fitting mortise and tenon joints? Are these useful or not really needed. I want to use these with QSWO mainly.


QSWO… There's a freakin acronym of everything these days! ;-)

[Mike Brady]

Although I have the joinery float in question, after reading through this thread I would add that a router plane, to me, is a far better way to fine tune tenons since it results in a tenon face that is square and parallel to the face of the work piece. I like that the router plane cutter gets right up to the point where the tenon meets the shoulder line. When I plane or "file" tenons to any significant degree I have found that the tenon often ends up tapered or twisted. Practice with the float would probably improve my technique.

[David Weaver]

If needed, you can do your floating to a marked line before cutting to final width.any floating after would be very trivial. But you're right, practice makes "good enough" without that, even if not multi router perfection.