Fantasy Shop

[larry merlau]

this has the potential to become long, but i think it could be helpful to others. if someone wants to make it a poll if it would be better suited then go for it. but here is my idea.. we have a set size of 28 x 40. now add your input on wall construction .covering, in and out ,floor construction,insulation. electrical service.plumbing, air and water heating type this can vary from location and this would need to be clarified. some of you guys dont need any more heat and some of us dont need any more cold :D roof coverring. ceiling hieght, lighting prefernces. and windows & doors. what would you want if you had it your way. cost not being an issue? this is a dream i had and thought it could help others in there quest for there perfect shop. thanks for the replies and or critisms.. have fun dreamin with idea of helping others

[John Dingman]

Well let's see......

I would want tongue and groove walls and ceiling.

I would want all the dust control and electrical run under the wooden floor. With the outlets and the DC piping placed where the machines would be located.

More lights than a football stadium.

10' Walls

Lot's of windows for natural light, but the tpye of windows that are higher on the wall to keep folks from watching what I am doing in the shop and to keep them from being able to walk by and see what I have in my shop.

Tons of outlets.

A huge service panel with room for expansion.

A separate ventilated room for finishing.

There's a lot more, but since this will NEVER happen in my lifetime, I'll let the rest of you guys fill in the blanks :D

John

[Larry Browning]

Everything on John's PLUS
A loft or upstairs area for long term lumber storage/drying
A bathroom with toilet and big utility sink.
A separate room for the compressor and DC.
Radiant floor heat.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Above all radiant floor heat! Man is that heat toasty!!

I too would want 10 foot walls and wood sided walls and ceilings.

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Larry. Since you are in Michigan I suggest that you build it just as if you were building a house.

For the floor, I would put in radiant heat with a heavy layer of polystyrene foam under the concrete slab. Also a good layer of insulation around the outer foundation.

For outer walls, consider using structured insulated panels. When we built our home, I used 8" thick SIPs for an R-30 in the walls. If you go for standard framing, use 2x6 studs at least, that will allow an R-19 in the walls. Be sure to use Tyvec(sp) wrap.

Ceiling height minimum is 10 ft., and in your case, with a large shop, 12 ft would be nice.

Ceiling insulation, I would go for 15 to 20 inches of blown in fiber glass giving an R-45 to R-60. While you are in the attic, specify roof decking that has the reflective aluminum foil of the attic side. Ridge vents and continuous soffit vent are the best ventilation option. Yes, you need ventilating year round, even in the cold of winter.

Electrical: Install at least a 200 amp panel. Run 240v oulets everywhere, even if you don't expect to use them now. Install 120v quad outlets with one duplex on circuit 1 and the other duplex on circuit 2.

Lights, use fluorescent fixtures, many of them. Go with electronic ballasts, and use bulbs that are at least 5000 degrees, Kelvin, with a color rendition of around 90 or better.(not your standard HD bulbs.)

Walls, I would use a 3/4" "shop grade" plywood. Ceiling just standard sheet rock. Paint the entire interior the brightest white you can find, semigloss.

Consider putting your dust collection piping in a channel in the floor to eliminate pipes hanging down from the ceiling. This can be done when the slab is poured. Putting a lip on the channel allows using 1/8" diamond plate steel to cover the channel.

Put the cyclone in a closet( an nice to do, but not required.) Put the compressor in a separate room.

There are a hundred things that need to be considered, but to me, the most important part is getting a good air tight building. Everything after that is an add-on.

Hope this helps. I did most of the above except for the radiant heat, and the closet for the cyclone :)

Thought for the day: people are put on earth for a reason, if only to make others look good. :rolleyes:

[Brad Knabel]

First I'd start with Lou Sansone's shop and I would add...let's see...I would add a... no wait he's got that already...hmmm...I think that does it. Just box up Lou's shop send it my way and I'd be happy.

[Don Baer]

I would add doub maybe even double barn doors for ease of bringing in and out equipment and projects as well as large sheet goods etc. Also I would probubly put in a powered small gantry crane for loading and unloading stuff.

[Brad Olson]

Radiant floor heating...

You've been to Just_George's shop but you haven't been there in January. He can keep his overhead door open and gets minimal heat loss in the shop. MUCH better than forced air. He can also run his cyclone outside and he also doesn't get much heat loss since 1/2 the heating effect is by warming ther person standing on the floor.

Electrical...

Put a box on every stud, I did that in my shop and everyone made fun of me for overkill, but I have about 2/3 of my outlets used and I am never far from a receptacle

If you have extra $ make each box a double gang with both a 220 and 120V in each.

For my elec., I put every 4th stud on the same circuit and no circuit crossed a corner, also I have outlets in the ceiling just in case.

[Bill Lewis]

Larry, you're evil!

Well, I was going to build somthing close to the picture included in this post. It included a garage, with a wing off of it. The garage portion was the car, and metalworking shop. The area measured about 30' square and the interior was to have a minium of a 12' ceiling (or vaulted) to accomodate a two post car lift. The wing off of the garage is for the Woodworking shop measures 22 x 30 or so. It would be built over a full walkout basement. The WW shop would have through the floor DC to the cyclone below. The basement would also house the compressor, water heater, HVAC equipment, additional lumber storage, and a home for the tractor, or other L&G equipment. The shop would have at least a half bath, with additional sinks where needed. Obviously this design works best for a sloped lot.

This was my dream shop, but I had to comprimise, and put the WW shop in the basement. I did oversize the house garage to 24' x 34' with (3) 9'w x8' h doors. I still intend to build another garage, similar to what I have shown, just without the wing.

[Dan Oelke]

Living up north - Radiant floor heat! A boiler that is outside would be nice, but even better would be a boiler in an "extra" room that is completely concrete - fireproof. That room can hold the firewood and have a separate outside door for bringing in firewood. But you can still get to it from inside so you don't need to go outside in Jan to fire the stove.

Lots of outlets with lots of circuits. Each outlet should be labeled with it's breaker number.

Dust collection built into the floor - nice (I'm planning on it in the far off future when I build my shop....) - wood floor would be nice for ease on the legs, BUT could you put "Lou-sized" equipment on it? If no plans for Lou-sized equipment then no problem.

Compressor in basement/closet. Air drops readily available, with coil hoses that can be easily moved from place to place.

Cabinets - with doors - keeps the dust off the treasures and gives a nicer look than open shelves.

Big double doors. I like the look better than an overhead door. Should be big enough to drive in forklift for that big equipment.

Oh - such a fantasy.......

[Tom Sontag]

What everyone keeps forgetting is that dream shops have 3 phase tools. Put 3 phase power on my list.

[lou sansone]

dear all


thanks for the complements on my shop. I think that most of you know that if you are in the area and would like to have a look that you are welcomed

lou

[Steve Stube]

Larry, are you planning to build a dream shop or do you already have what you think is a dream shop and are at some point going to share that with others?

You do realize that you will not get a consciences of opinion on design. Even if money were no object (dream on) some design features are mutually exclusive. Such things as climate and water table, full time heating/cooling versus part time or occasional use, zoning (It's true what they say, location, location, location.)etc., etc., etc. can all affect the final design.

Anyway (Larry), if you already have the dream shop - I'd like an invite. If your looking to build a dream shop - come and see mine and modify to suite your needs. I've done the research and built a shop that makes the most efficient use of materials and is more economical to operate 24/7 than any others I seen or heard of. I have put together a presentation outlining the important decision points of home shop construction and hope to make that available on CD or DVD in the future (near - a hedge word). I have all the construction details for my shop in AutoCAD. BTW, it is a 28' X 48' two story structure.

[Jim Becker]

Hmm...dream shop, eh? 28'x40', eh? Hmm...

12-14" ceiling, preferably open to the roof with skylights near the peaks for natural light. Windows, but most near the top of the walls for the same reason. Normal entry door for regular access and either roll-ups for major portals or a big slider if it could be sealed properly for weather. I'd much preserve a traditional structure look externally, although for something this size, it may be more practical to use a steel building or pole-barn construction. Wood floors, either on joists with a crawl space or on sleepers over a concrete floor. Radient heat. A/C. Fully insulated. Lighting with "natural" brightness and coloration. Security system.

Walls, T&G and natural colored combined with other materials that are painted--a warm feeling like Lou Sansone's place, if you will. Multiple rooms...machine, bench and assembly room, finishing room, storage/DC/Compressor room, office and bathroom with shower. And if it were a business, I'd want the office to double as a show/meeting room with lots of glass looking into the working area.

[Doug Shepard]

Anything but concrete for the floor. The older I get, the less I can tolerate standing on it for long periods of time. Even the anti-fatigue mats don't seem to help an awful lot. So maybe a wood floor over the concrete? Or those 1" x 2'x2' commercial tiles they use for workout room floors? Either would make rolling mobile based stuff more difficult, but at the size of the shop you're fantasizing, I doubt mobile bases are a big concern.

Lots of natural light would be my preference. Maybe a skylight or two?

If the ceiling is going to be open, I'd go with beefier framing to better support the wood and other stuff you'll be tempted to store overhead.

A separate finishing room would be ideal.

[Steve Wargo]

My fantasy shop would be Lou Sansone's. It is the nicest I've been in, and I've seen some nice ones. He has much to be proud of and makes some nice furniture as well, the only thing, I'd change is I'd double the size of the bench room.

[Larry Browning]

Hi Larry. Since you are in Michigan I suggest that you build it just as if you were building a house.

For the floor, I would put in radiant heat with a heavy layer of polystyrene foam under the concrete slab. Also a good layer of insulation around the outer foundation.


We don't want a slab at all. we want pier and beam construction with a real nice crawl space so we can run our DC ducting under that nice hardwood floor. :D

[lou sansone]

My fantasy shop would be Lou Sansone's. It is the nicest I've been in, and I've seen some nice ones. He has much to be proud of and makes some nice furniture as well, the only thing, I'd change is I'd double the size of the bench room.

hi steve
thanks for the complement and I agree completly that the bench room should be twice as large.. oh well

lou

[Ken Garlock]

We don't want a slab at all. we want pier and beam construction with a real nice crawl space so we can run our DC ducting under that nice hardwood floor. :D

In Arkansas a pier and beam would work just fine, if you can find someone that knows how to build one. In Michigan, a pier and beam would be a major heat loss in the winter, and the dust ducting would be a class A refrigerator without some serious duct insulation. I fear that a pier and beam in Michigan would freeze your phalanges off in the winter. :eek:

[Frank Pellow]

I lot of things about the shop that I just built are ideal for me, but 28x40 is 1120 square feet and my main shop is only 482 square feet and there is another 160 in the basement (mostly for finishing).

So, my first decision is to figure out what to do with the extra space:

482 Current space

160 The finishing area would move out of the basement to a separate room within the shop building (and it would include plumbing -but still no toilet).

200 Wood storage

120 Design area and office

48 Expansion of the sitting area around my stove

150 Expansion of the main shop area
I am currently covering almost the maximum percent of the lot that is allowed and I had to steal some room from my vegetable garden for the shop. So my ideal shop would be on an ideal lot which is about twice the size of the one I have (hey, I can buy my neighbors house and knock it down).

Things in my fantasy shop that would stay the same would be:

Exterior walls: rough sawn pine board and batten

Interior walls: plywood painted white

Roof: asphalt shingles

Ceiling: plywood painted white

Foundation: concrete piers

Floor: two layers of plywood

Insulation: Roxul R21.5 rock wool insulation in the floor, walls, and ceiling

Heating: a combination of a propane space heater and wood stove

Lighting: C50 florescent -4 foot

Electricity: 100 amp service

Air conditioning: A fan and open doors (when it gets realy hot in Toronto, I am usuall far away at Pellow's Camp :D )

Tools, except for my jointer and planer

Dust Collection: Oneida 2hp Commercial
Things in my shop the would be somewhat altered:


The walls would be 6" higher all round

Additional skylights (I have 3 and my ideal expanded shop would have 8)

Additional windows (I have 4 and my ideal expanded shop would have 10)

My 8" jointer and 15" planer would both be General (made in Canada), rather than Delta (made in China)

[larry merlau]

[QUOTE=Bill Lewis]Larry, you're evil!

well its in the blood, bill :D just ask those who have met me. as for your dream shop i am looking at a wooden floor very hard, i saw one a while back that swept me of my feet. i was amazed at what it was holding and the comfort it gave my old knees and feet/ i could have stayed there for a week and not regreted a min of it. in my existing shop i have the 1/2 foam floor mats to help out but they dont do it all.. i really like your picture you dropped in and wish i had the software to do that. i dont so i just do that in my little hardrive. thats real shinny on top :D i have seen the radiant heat aspect but i am wanting to stay away from concrete. thanks again for your input and all of the others who have voiced opinions

[larry merlau]

well this is doing what i wanted, and thanks to those who have taken the time to reply.. sounds like radiant heat is key feature for the heat factor and i think that its avaible in wood, as well as concrete, so could work. like the idea of sky lights for light but dont like the maintence. i have alot of birds and tree sap. the ceiling height was going to be at least 9ft and looks like ten is better in most eyes. and i also see that i need to go see lou's shop sometime. now that will be a road trip!! so will keep reading the replies and jotting gown the key points for the fantasy shop in my future.

thanks again// larry

[Larry Browning]

well this is doing what i wanted, and thanks to those who have taken the time to reply.. sounds like radiant heat is key feature for the heat factor and i think that its avaible in wood, as well as concrete, so could work. like the idea of sky lights for light but dont like the maintence. i have alot of birds and tree sap. the ceiling height was going to be at least 9ft and looks like ten is better in most eyes. and i also see that i need to go see lou's shop sometime. now that will be a road trip!! so will keep reading the replies and jotting gown the key points for the fantasy shop in my future.

thanks again// larry
Larry,
I have radiant floor heat that I installed myself under the wooden floor. I got mine from Radiant Floor Company www.radiantcompany.com (http://www.radiantcompany.com)
They are geared to the DYIer and were very helpfull to me.

Larry

[Byron Trantham]

Anything but concrete for the floor. The older I get, the less I can tolerate standing on it for long periods of time. Even the anti-fatigue mats don't seem to help an awful lot.

Doug, boy can I relate to that! I work on concrete and have used the foam mats for several years but they were never where they should be so I finally tossed them. Now its easier to sweep the floor and move my equipment BUT that concrete sure is hard! :rolleyes:

[Jamie Buxton]

Ken, you're real big on insulation, which is very important in Wisconsin. Other folks have mentioned the need for a door big enough to drive a truck or a forklift through. How would you do the door? Roll-up garage doors don't seal well around the edges, and are not well-insulated. Sliding barn doors can be built so they are better insulated, but still have a big problem with sealing around the edges. What's a good solution?

Jamie

[Michael Gibbons]

Flouresent lights that connect directly to the ceiling and not hanging down on chains.

An explosion proof exhaust fan mounted in the wall at or near the area that you be doing finishing at.

Walled off finishing room.
Wall mounted first aid kit.

If possible, run ducts and wiring below floor/slab.

Mike

[Frank Pellow]

Ken, you're real big on insulation, which is very important in Wisconsin. Other folks have mentioned the need for a door big enough to drive a truck or a forklift through. How would you do the door? Roll-up garage doors don't seal well around the edges, and are not well-insulated. Sliding barn doors can be built so they are better insulated, but still have a big problem with sealing around the edges. What's a good solution?

Jamie
I am really happy with the insulated double doors that I built for my shop. See the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=10575

[Ron Taylor]

Hmmm.. lessee... I did build my dream shop. Tell me what you think...

It is a stand-alone building in my back yard, 24' X 46' on a 4" concrete slab. I wanted wood floors, but let others talk me out of it. To do it over again, it WOULD be wood! The ceilings are 9', and that seems sufficient. I haven't had a problem swinging a 4X8 sheet yet. 2X4 stud walls on 16" centers, 4" of foam insulation between each stud and 1/2" foam sheeting, then house wrap between the studs and the T-111 siding. That counts up to R13 which is great for Southeast Alabama.

I jigged up and built 2X4 "W" trusses, set on 24" centers for totally clear floor space, no supporting columns. It is strong enough that I hung a complete 327 Chevy engine from two rafters with no discernable deflection. The roof is 26g galvalume steel. House wrap again separates the steel from the wood for moisture barrier and no wind drafts.

I went underground with all utilities including 100 amp elect, water, phone, tv, and computer networking cables. For me, the 100 amp is sufficient since this is a hobby shop and a one-man operation. I never intend to have any three phase either. The panel is getting full, but as of now, I still have some wiggle room. I put a duplex on every stud along the long walls, every second stud along the end walls, 4 to a circuit. I need more near my bench so will probably swap out for quads there.

One of my most brilliant moves was dual circuits on 10g braided wire laid in the concrete (1" pvc conduit) along the center line of the slab. Each drop is dedicated lines to a quad box, so I can have two duplexes on separate dedicated breakers or a 220v drop at each location with sufficient amperage to run any machine I will ever own. No messy overhead wiring to the stand-alone equipment. I just wish I'd done the same with dc and air.

The compressor is outside under a small lean-to, 3/4" pipe to every work area. Retractible spools are mounted over my main bench, assembly bench, and table saw.

The other stroke of genius was the bathroom. The 8'X8' floor space sacrifice is 100% worth it. I put in toilet, shower, and lavatory. There is still space here to house my dc (when I get it :mad: ) A 10 gallon water heater is more than sufficient.

Along the shop side of the bathroom wall is a mud sink and washer and dryer. While not an absolute necessity, the washer and dryer are nice. My shop clothes stay in the shop. Shop rags are always available, fresh and clean. When I go to the house, I carry no saw dust and am ready for dinner or bed. LOML stays happy :D

Another 8'X10' area is my "clean" room. I used sheetrock walls and ceilings with lots of mud to seal every crack. Separate ventilation keeps virtually all dust away. A small air cleaner does the rest. The floor is carpeted. This area is not quite large enough for a finishing room, but is great for a small office. A cedar lined closet is a concession to LMOL for clothing storage. Her massive collection of craft paint is mounted on wall racks here. Either of us can use this room for computer work or other quite privacy.

All walk doors are 36" with levers instead of door knobs. With both hands full, a knee, elbow, or buttock will open the door.

A 10' overhead door with remote automatic opener is great for backing my pickup in for unloading materials or loading up a finished project. A remote controller in the kitchen opens or closes the overhead door. It is surprising how convenient this is.

Thats my shop, and the best part is I did it entirely by myself except for help pouring the slab, and putting on the steel roof. Yes, I built and hung the trusses by myself. A picture of that operation will be included in my shop tour when I get all of the pics organized. And, I did it after my first heart attack! It took a year and a half from start to finish. I'm still working on inside trim, paint, work tables, storage, etc.

The other "best" part is that from the first shovel of footer to the last finish nail, I've layed out less than $12k, not including work stations and equipment of course. That is about half the cost of one of my brothers' bass boats and they ask me why don't I fish :) .

[Tim Sproul]

12-14" ceiling,


Ouch. I don't think I could even lie down in a shop that short :D


But yeah, I'd agree that 10' ceiling is the minimum and 12 to 14 FEET is better. If you go that high, you might want to put in ceiling fans to circulate warm air down in the winter and move air around in the summer.

I also second/third/fourth....the recommendations for putting DC and electrical and air under the floor. Put the shop on a generous crawl space and you'll have access to change or add in the future.

[Chris Padilla]

...it may be more practical to use a steel building or pole-barn construction...

How dare that word "practical" enter our fantasy shop! ;)

[Chris Padilla]

Put the shop on a generous crawl space and you'll have access to change or add in the future.

Generous would be 8' ceilings in that "crawl" space. Some folks might even call it a basement! :eek:

[Steve Stube]

Personally I don't see the need for 12' and 14' ceiling heights in a home hobby shop. Every time I see that recommendation given, "I thinks I see another clumsy oaf that can't turn a 4'X8' sheet of ply without bumping into something". Second thought is, does the guy have any first hand experience with heating and cooling a shop with high ceilings. Third I think of all the high ceiling shops that I've seen where the owner enclosed an area within to ~ an 8' ceiling so he could afford/have an area of comfort - either heated or cooled. I think the whole shop should be comfortable to work in, not just a little room.

Skylights is another pet peeve of mine. In theory they are attractive. Someone wisely already mentioned the high maintenance aspect. Putting a weak insulator at a point where maximum insulation is desirable (either from cold or heat) is another way to spend extra money for those so inclined.

Radiant in floor heat is another of those recommendations so quickly and loosely tossed out like it is the best thing going. Without proper preplanning and foundation prep it can be the absolute worst choice for heating. Oh, and if you only plan to heat your shop occasionally when you are in it, this option looses a lot of luster. My floors are neither cold or hot (just right for Baby Bear) without any tubing in them. I did insulate my ground floor and foundation as if preparing for in floor heating.

But then I digress, and this isn't fantasy now.

[Tim Sproul]

Personally I don't see the need for 12' and 14' ceiling heights in a home hobby shop. Every time I see that recommendation given, "I thinks I see another clumsy oaf that can't turn a 4'X8' sheet of ply without bumping into something".


Being the "clumsy oaf" that I am....I sometimes wish I had taller than 10' ceilings when pulling out 10' - 16' long boards and trying to get them off the rack and onto horses or benches so I can lay out parts prior to cutting the boards into more manageable lengths.

I do suppose if you primarily are building sheetgood cabinetry, 10' ceiling is more than adequate. If you work with decent amounts of solid wood furniture, you're bound to have a healthy number of 10+' length boards stroll through the shop.

[Frank Pellow]

...
Skylights is another pet peeve of mine. In theory they are attractive. Someone wisely already mentioned the high maintenance aspect. Putting a weak insulator at a point where maximum insulation is desirable (either from cold or heat) is another way to spend extra money for those so inclined.
...

I grant you that skylights don't provide the desired insulation but, for me at least, the natural light that they provide is well worth the cost. If I got to build my shop over again, I would have at least one more skylight.

I believe that the skylights in my shop are the feature most appreciated and commented upon by my visitors.

[Jim Becker]

Ouch. I don't think I could even lie down in a shop that short .

Well, you know we men get inches and feet all mixed up sometimes....:o

[Bill Lewis]

...the natural light that they provide is well worth the cost....You do have to be careful about the placement of skylights too. Like a good artists studio, the best light is northern light, indirect and not glaring. Putting clear, undifused, skylights on a south or southwest roof may provide a lot of the wrong kind of light. Who wants to work with the sun in their eyes? :cool:

[Chris Rosenberger]

[QUOTE=Bill Lewis]Larry, you're evil!

well its in the blood, bill :D just ask those who have met me. as for your dream shop i am looking at a wooden floor very hard, i saw one a while back that swept me of my feet. i was amazed at what it was holding and the comfort it gave my old knees and feet/ i could have stayed there for a week and not regreted a min of it. in my existing shop i have the 1/2 foam floor mats to help out but they dont do it all.. i really like your picture you dropped in and wish i had the software to do that. i dont so i just do that in my little hardrive. thats real shinny on top :D i have seen the radiant heat aspect but i am wanting to stay away from concrete. thanks again for your input and all of the others who have voiced opinions

Larry you could have stayed a week. :) Feel free to to describe my shop. I would do it but I am on vacation until next week & I am on a motel computer & so I do not have much time. By the way my son is watching things while I am gone.:D

[Steve Ash]

Larry,
When you get ready to build that fantasy shop just give me a call, I'll be right over to lend a hand......or two!
I noticed someone mentioned building their own trusses...check your local building code office first, I used to build trusses for some of the buildings I built but it seems that some counties require an engineereed truss more often than not. The truss company will send along a spec sheet of where your backers and braces need to go as well as hurricane clip requirements....yep hurricane clips in Michigan :eek:

Steve

[mike lucas]

It has to have 10' walls, (I have 9'3" and it isn't tall enough.) maybe 11-12 would be even better. A coset for the air compressor, and dust collector, a light color and lots of light, one 12'x8' overhead door, a few windows for those days you spray finish, better yet, a 10'x12' finish room. (I'd like bigger, but you limited the shop size :mad: ) Locking outlets (115 and 230 volt ones) in the ceiling for the machines/tools in the middle of the shop. Don't want anything to trip on!

Ran out of space already. Mine is 32'x34' plus the air compressor and all finishing is in a different space, and it needs to be bigger!

[Joe Mioux]

In my branch store, I have both 14 foot tall ceilings, ALOT of good fluorescents fixtures and even more low and high voltage spot & flood lights.

Additionally: I have in-floor hot water heat.

Fourteen foot tall ceilings are a pain.

It is difficult to change the light bulbs

In-floor heat is wonderful. The high ceiling height is -- mostly --irrelevant with the infloor heat, because there is a temperature inversion in the room.

joe

[larry merlau]

Well, you know we men get inches and feet all mixed up sometimes....:o
well jim does it again he's the come back kid. gets you thinkin he's asllep or missed a lick and comes back to win the game :D

[larry merlau]

i have had not been here to read the latest, so today i got caught up on my readin. i like some of the input that has been added and have gotten some new ideas of where i might go when the ship comes in.. as for the crawl space crisPadilla, cant quite come up with enough grade or money for the full basement aspect but i can have around 4 to 5ft. thats better than none.. as for the duct collection in the floor idea sounds good have seen it done but is it the best for collection. does it make the collector work harder? most collectors will be on the top floor and there still having to draw the dust up and the postioning of tools had better be set in stone before hand. and we all know that never happens :D oh mr steve ash i had thought of having a shop raising. asking for everyone to bring a tool to pass and or lumber,as well as there labor, are you still interested :D and steve from midland i appreciate your objectivness. i am pretty much set on the 10 ft ceiling in my case and am liking to have a 8ft wall with a cap cod roof design with the other 2 ft coming from a raised bottom chord on the truss if i could get it engneerd that way.for the most part the ten ft area that is needed is in the center part of the room rather than the outside edge in my normal realm of things. and so once again thanks to those of yu that have replied and i hope that this has and will help others in there quest to there fantasy shop..