Hand tools and plywood - is that a really bad idea?

[Rob Marshall]

Hi,

I'm sure that this question has been asked, but in trying to search for something related I didn't see anything (lots of posts but none of the titles seemed appropriate)...maybe I should have looked harder so any pointers would be appreciated.

First some background...many years ago I bought a small "box" that has three shelves and drawers of varying sizes (small to larger going top to bottom). They are all relatively small and good for things like screws, nails, etc. I was hoping to build something similar only bigger but I'm having a hard time determining if it's a good idea, and here's the potential "problem": The small box is made of plywood (probably baltic birch or similar since it looks like high quality plywood). The outer box and all of the drawers are simply plywood boxes joined using box joints and the drawers are also just boxes made with box joints and hardboard drawer bottoms. The three levels are just 1/4" (actually probably 6mm) shelves that are held in place with dados. What I would like to do is to get some 1/2" and 1/4" baltic birch and make the outer case (again with box joints and dado'ed shelves) of the 1/2" (I am assuming the "pins" would be the same size as the thickness of the material) and make a bunch of drawers (again, box joints with hardboard bottoms held in grooves).

I have seen lots of videos with people building shop storage with plywood, but they all use power tools, even the least sophisticated use circular saws but most are table/mitre saws, etc. I don't have power tools, and don't want to buy any just to build something for shop storage. Am I to assume that using plywood (baltic birch) is just not done by those who use hand tools? It's not that I have anything against using "real" wood, but I like the look of the multiple layers showing in the joints, etc. And I would think it would be fairly stable if made of a good, high quality, plywood.

About the only thing I've seen is a short article by Adam Cherubini who apparently did some work with plywood and suggested a good sharp cross-cut saw. And I would imagine I'll need to be extra careful when sawing because fixing it with a hand plane may prove difficult. But has anybody done any work with plywood using hand tools only? Or would I just be wasting my time, effort and money?

Thanks,

Rob

[Andrew Hughes]

It's the glue they use in plywood, don't know why but its hard.Maybe plastic resin glue.

[Stanley Covington]

Hi,

I'm sure that this question has been asked, but in trying to search for something related I didn't see anything (lots of posts by none of the titles seemed appropriate)...maybe I should have looked harder so any pointers would be appreciated.

First some background...many years ago I bought a small "box" that has three shelves and drawers of varying sizes (small to larger going top to bottom). They are all relatively small and good for things like screws, nails, etc. I was hoping to build something similar only bigger but I'm having a hard time determining if it's a good idea, and here's the potential "problem": The small box is made of plywood (probably baltic birch or similar since it looks like high quality plywood). The outer box and all of the drawers are simply plywood boxes joined using box joints and the drawers are also just boxes made with box joints and hardboard drawer bottoms. The three levels are just 1/4" (actually probably 6mm) shelves that are held in place with dados. What I would like to do is to get some 1/2" and 1/4" baltic birch and make the outer case (again with box joints and dado'ed shelves) of the 1/2" (I am assuming the "pins" would be the same size as the thickness of the material) and make a bunch of drawers (again, box joints with hardboard bottoms held in grooves).

I have seen lots of videos with people building shop storage with plywood, but they all use power tools, even the least sophisticated use circular saws but most are table/mitre saws, etc. I don't have power tools, and don't want to buy any just to build something for shop storage. Am I to assume that using plywood (baltic birch) is just not done by those who use hand tools? It's not that I have anything against using "real" wood, but I like the look of the multiple layers showing in the joints, etc. And I would think it would be fairly stable if made of a good, high quality, plywood.

About the only thing I've seen is a short article by Adam Cherubini who apparently did some work with plywood and suggested a good sharp cross-cut saw. And I would imagine I'll need to be extra careful when sawing because fixing it with a hand plane may prove difficult. But has anybody done any work with plywood using hand tools only? Or would I just be wasting my time, effort and money?

Thanks,

Rob

I once built a set of kitchen cabinets from plywood using only handtools for a customer when I was a starving student. It can be done, but it is not pleasant.

A drywall square is an essential tool as is a razor knife (box cutter) and extra-hard blades.

Handsaws tend to splinter/blow off the top layer of veneer, so all cuts must be carefully scored with a knife. If material on both sides of the cut is to be reused, two knife cuts the width of the sawkerf are necessary. Masking tape is also useful. A 12 pt crosscut handsaw is absolutely essential, and a 14 pt handsaw is valuable. Western-style handsaws have softer teeth and cut less aggressively than the induction hardened (black-toothed) kaeba Japanese variety, but in my experience the less aggressive shape of the Western style saw, if sharp, tend to cut with less blowout.

A Japanese azebiki saw or Western stair saw (rounded cutting edge) is very useful for cutting the sides of rabbets and dados.

Wooden bodied planes cannot handle truing/cleaning plywood edges at all. Plane blades must be sharpened frequently.

Block planes are very useful in trimming flush edge banding.

A router plane and steel-bodied shoulder plane (5/8" to 3/4") for cleaning rabbets are essential.

Lots of clamps and cauls are necessary for gluing on edge banding.

Chisel work is best avoided entirely if possible. Plan to secure joints with glue, screws or nails. Joints must be designed to be strong using glue, screws and nails, of course.

The harder Japanese chisels are useable if treated carefully to avoid chipping. Being considerably softer, most western chisels won't chip, but they dull very quickly, so be prepared to sharpen a lot. They are now producing chisels in Japan designed especially for working plywood and have tough, hard high-tungsten steel blades that can remain sharp longer and hold up to working plywood without chipping. I have not used them.

And don't forget lots of sandpaper and a rubber sanding block! Oh joy! ;)

Now that his video is out, I need to send Chris Schwarz a copy of a 1963 Popular Mechanics Magazine to use for ideas for his next inspiring video on how to build plywood bird feeders. :p

Stan

[Hilton Ralphs]

Sort of on topic but I've actually planed MDF to get it flat. Sharp blade didn't last long though.

[Jack Curtis]

I used this saw http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32939&cat=1,42884,42924 to make some plywood cabinets. Worked better than my circular saw, which was cheap and crummy, but still...

[David Weaver]

If you're going to make a lot of stuff out of ply, I'd consider getting a track saw and selling it when you're done. A good one (makita, festool, etc) and not a budget one.

That said, I have fairly often cut small plywood parts by hand and planed to a marking line. An impulse hardened saw like Jack linked should work for a while (I'm just cutting lumber core plywood with a western saw, and if it gets dull, I'll sharpen it).

I haven't noticed the decent lumbercore ply to dull tools right away, though I'd imagine it is a little faster than wood. I've done most of my work with this plane:

http://woodworker.com/9-34-euro-smoothing-plane-mssu-131-795.asp

(the largest one at the top of the list). The irons in these planes are clearly high speed steel despite their comment that they're "carbon steel". They are as durable as anything commonly available, but because they are so tough are to avoided if you don't use modern stones and a grinder. Diamonds sharpen them like nothing, but everything else will bog on them a little and they burnish anything but a soft grinding wheel. They are a copy of the ECE continental planes, which some people don't find favor with. I find them better than the ECE planes, tried a primus and then sold it, these are more rudiementary but ultimately more capable and with a much better iron.

Some of your luck will depend on the plywood you use, if it's mostly wood and not much glue, it's really not going to seem too much different other than that cut lines across the veneer will have a little more chipping than solid wood. Stay away from MDF core or any of that garbage, MDF is an abrasive and murders tool edges.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Stanley's got a lot of good points. I've used the same saw Jack links too with quite some success, although I did need to end up stoning one side of the teeth to get the set more in line. (I used a hard oilstone, one of those cheap ones you get at the hardware store.) Western saws can be fine, but be prepared to do a lot of sharpening. Like Stanley says, scribing the face is key if you don't want to tear it up, but if you're ripping along the face plys it's not always as bad, particularly if the ply was going to be hidden in a groove or something.

To do the double knife-line Stanley alludes to (to keep both sides of the cut usable), I put two little knives (made out of old jigsaw blades) in my panel gauge, face to face. They're shaped like a spear point marking knife, but having the bevel sides facing each other, I get two lines fairly close to each other.

I've jointed edges on the ply with my number 7- getting a good cut edge and hiding it is probably a better approach. It works, but as others have said, be prepared to sharpen often.

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks for all of the advice. Sounds pretty much like I expected, i.e. that the glue holding the layers of the plywood, and the makeup of those layers, are where the problems can arise. What I may do is a test, i.e. make a drawer and see how much work it is, how quickly things dull, etc. Since the piece would require a lot of drawers, the problems created by the plywood itself may significantly increase the effort and make the project a lot less "fun".

Rob

[David Little 2]

Hi Rob,
Please excuse spelling mistakes and such, but I'm working from a tablet and its 00.45 on this vacation in China.
I did make a very big (H1120 W1110 D520) chest of 7 draws 3 months ago

Materials were; 18 mm birch faced for the top. 18 mm far Eastern faced, builder's quality sheets for sides and base. Back 12mm far eastern ply.
The draws were 12 mm far eastern ply, bases 9 mm far eastern, draw fronts were 18 mm birch faced, overlay fronts.
Heavy duty runners, 500 mm length, 50 Kg type, made by Hafele, bought cheap in Taiwan.
Tools used were; Cheap circular /skill saw, without track, jig saw, 12 mm chisel made from an old "Scott" file, Ezelap diamond plate, carvers malett, sliding bevel, 2 set squares 50 mm and 600 mm, cutting gauge,marking knife, record shoulder plane, stanlkey rebate plane, Stanley 8 plane with o1 blade/iron.

Joints; carcas, dovetails all four corners, rebate back, one stretcher was butt glue and screwed.
Draws; lapped corners, glued and screwed, bottoms, grooved into sides n front and backs.
I did the vast majority of the skill sawing on the ground outside my block of flats/apartment block, jigsawing of dovetails , various planing, lapping, drilling and screwing on my cheap lightweight sljoberg bench, took about 40 hours (3 dry weekends) including runner fitting and adjusting them over and over!

Finishing, I intend on hammer veneering it with 0.3 mm birdseye Maple, with rosewood cross banding and edging, on draw fronts and the top. The sides will be regular maple.

I have been using it for One month so far, still havnt glued the dovetails, till ive made the base, will be swept legs about 150 mm tall, using mortice and tenon joints in pine. just last week attached tiny single knob to centre of each graduated draw front, L 1120, they glide so gracefully. I may make it bow fronted, using my compass plane, as I did with the bedside cabinets I made last Xmas holidays, French polished using a rubber.

Don't worry, you don't need fancy tools, our forefathers didn't (i know they didnt use ureaformaldahyde or plywood either) although, the o1 blade is an extravagance, I'd have still done it with the regular Stanley blade, as are the other planes.

I haven't taken any photos, but will if you want me to, any question let me know.
Good luck,
Dave
Time now 00.53, longest I've ever written online!

[Chris Hachet]

Sort of on topic but I've actually planed MDF to get it flat. Sharp blade didn't last long though. I use hand planes on all kinds of stuff like this. Needless to say, I've gotten really sued to sharpening and honing my hand planes.

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks for all of the advice. Sounds pretty much like I expected, i.e. that the glue holding the layers of the plywood, and the makeup of those layers, are where the problems can arise. What I may do is a test, i.e. make a drawer and see how much work it is, how quickly things dull, etc. Since the piece would require a lot of drawers, the problems created by the plywood itself may significantly increase the effort and make the project a lot less "fun".

Rob...and there is no shame in using power tools either. I repair furniture as part of my job in the facilities department of a small private college. Table saws work just dandy with plywood, as do track saws.

[Chris Hachet]

If you're going to make a lot of stuff out of ply, I'd consider getting a track saw and selling it when you're done. A good one (makita, festool, etc) and not a budget one.

That said, I have fairly often cut small plywood parts by hand and planed to a marking line. An impulse hardened saw like Jack linked should work for a while (I'm just cutting lumber core plywood with a western saw, and if it gets dull, I'll sharpen it).

I haven't noticed the decent lumbercore ply to dull tools right away, though I'd imagine it is a little faster than wood. I've done most of my work with this plane:

http://woodworker.com/9-34-euro-smoothing-plane-mssu-131-795.asp

(the largest one at the top of the list). The irons in these planes are clearly high speed steel despite their comment that they're "carbon steel". They are as durable as anything commonly available, but because they are so tough are to avoided if you don't use modern stones and a grinder. Diamonds sharpen them like nothing, but everything else will bog on them a little and they burnish anything but a soft grinding wheel. They are a copy of the ECE continental planes, which some people don't find favor with. I find them better than the ECE planes, tried a primus and then sold it, these are more rudiementary but ultimately more capable and with a much better iron.

Some of your luck will depend on the plywood you use, if it's mostly wood and not much glue, it's really not going to seem too much different other than that cut lines across the veneer will have a little more chipping than solid wood. Stay away from MDF core or any of that garbage, MDF is an abrasive and murders tool edges.Thanks for the link on the plane, I've been looking for a small #2 or #3 sized wood plane to fill out my roster of planes, this should do the trick nicely. Price is good also.

[David Weaver]

That one is a #4 sized plane. 48 or 50mm iron. It's a different animal than most western planes because the iron protrudes in the middle of the sole.

only the biggest of those planes is worth buying. The remainder have extremely odd shaped very narrow irons for their body size and are pointless.

Thought I'd add that quickly since a seller on ebay errantly sent me a bunch of the small ones, they were worthless.

[Bill Houghton]

Hold the saw at a very low angle to the plywood as you cut. Helps with blowout, cuts, in my experience, a little faster. No idea why.

[David Keller NC]

Thanks for all of the advice. Sounds pretty much like I expected, i.e. that the glue holding the layers of the plywood, and the makeup of those layers, are where the problems can arise. What I may do is a test, i.e. make a drawer and see how much work it is, how quickly things dull, etc. Since the piece would require a lot of drawers, the problems created by the plywood itself may significantly increase the effort and make the project a lot less "fun".

Rob

I can vouch that making things out of plywood with hand tools isn't my idea of "fun". But - what about a hybrid approach? To save a bit of money (actually, quite a lot of money), you can get a decent Dewalt circular saw, a plywood blade, and a 48" clamp-on aluminum guide. This will be more than good enough to size and square your Baltic birch for the exterior box, then you can use your hand tools to make drawers out of a suitable solid wood (my suggestion would be basswood because it's light, inexpensive, stronger than eastern white pine, and works beautifully with hand tools).

You can either make the carcasses in the "euro" format if you want a spare look, or make face frames if you want a more refined look. No one will know that you ripped the BB and glued and screwed the carcasses together with butt joints!

[Jim Matthews]

I score the final dimension I want in plywood and cut close with an old Orsa crosscut that has impulse hardened teeth.

I don't us my Japanese saws on this stuff, it just knocks teeth out.
I bevel to the score line with my handplane and finish off with light passes.

I don't notice any appreciable difference in wear rate on my plane irons.
There is more tendency to break out in plywood at the end, so a judicious chamfer helps.

I've just seen some plywood furniture with a cunning treatment of banding that was impossible for me to discern from solid wood.
For larger jobs, a tracksaw is a Godsend.

I tape the underside to reduce chipout, in that case.

[Rob Marshall]

Again, thanks to everyone for the advice. I guess another part of the reason for wanting to know about using plywood is that I want to keep the drawers "relatively" small. I don't know if I could even get 1/4" thick pine and how stable that would be if I could find it (perhaps it's easier than I think...). I still plan on giving it a try with some 6mm (1/4") baltic birch as soon as I can get around to it. I'm going to be getting the japanese plywood saw from Lee Valley to give that a try as well as a (sharp :-) cross-cut saw.

Rob

[Stanley Covington]

To do the double knife-line Stanley alludes to (to keep both sides of the cut usable), I put two little knives (made out of old jigsaw blades) in my panel gauge, face to face. They're shaped like a spear point marking knife, but having the bevel sides facing each other, I get two lines fairly close to each other.

Joshua's idea of double razor knife blades in a panel gauge is very clever. I will use it. :)

As has been mentioned before, the glue used to laminate plywood is hard on tools. But a more significant case of grief is the grit imbedded in the veneers, especially the top and bottom layers, from thickness sanding during production. Serious abrasives. :(

If you use a steel-body handplane on plywood, almost immediately you will find deep scratches on the plane's sole from contact with this grit. Glue alone cannot do this degree of localized damage so quickly. :mad:

After working plywood, and observing old examples of plywood in furniture and construction, I have been forced to conclude that, while for many applications plywood is an excellent choice (50 years of durability is more than adequate for kitchen cabinets or built-ins or roof/wall sheathing), plywood is a relatively short-term material determined to self-destruct. Be sure you are aware of the material's limitations.:o

Stan

[David Keller NC]

Again, thanks to everyone for the advice. I guess another part of the reason for wanting to know about using plywood is that I want to keep the drawers "relatively" small. I don't know if I could even get 1/4" thick pine and how stable that would be if I could find it (perhaps it's easier than I think...). I still plan on giving it a try with some 6mm (1/4") baltic birch as soon as I can get around to it. I'm going to be getting the japanese plywood saw from Lee Valley to give that a try as well as a (sharp :-) cross-cut saw.

Rob

I think you'd find 1/4" eastern white pine to be exceptionally stable. It won't be nearly as strong as Baltic Birch across the grain, but almost no natural lumber is as strong as plywood of equivalent thickness.

[Stanley Covington]

I think you'd find 1/4" eastern white pine to be exceptionally stable. It won't be nearly as strong as Baltic Birch across the grain, but almost no natural lumber is as strong as plywood of equivalent thickness.

From a structural engineering standpoint, a comparison of solid wood and plywood of the same thickness shows that plywood is quite often weaker (deflects more under the same loading) than solid wood. Plywood has very significant advantages over solid wood in many applications, but it is not generally "stronger" in terms of deflection or rupture.