Do I need nails?

[Steve Wurster]

I'm making a built-in and I'm ready to start installing face frame pieces. Since this is a built-in, the cabinets don't have individual face frames; each stile will cover the edges of 2 adjoining cabinets. I'm using splines to align the rails and stiles, and therefore the pieces are actually able to stay in place just by friction alone. The cabinets are already installed, screwed to the wall and to each other.

So my question is, do I need nails to attach the face frame pieces to the cabinets, or will glue alone suffice? Keep in mind that I cannot clamp the rails and stiles to the cabinets since the cabinets are already attached to the wall. But I can get them aligned and fully installed just using a rubber mallet. I do not own a nail gun, so if I were going to use nails I would be doing it the old fashioned way. The unit will be painted so filling in the nail holes isn't an issue.

So will glue alone work here, or do I have to use nails to make sure everything holds correctly, not only now but also over time?

Thanks.

[ray hampton]

how will the face frame stay in place if you do not use nails and glue

[John TenEyck]

Nails are like clamps so, yes, I would nail them. Plus glue, of course.

John

[Steve Wurster]

I will use glue. But I was wondering if that alone would suffice, given that I cannot clamp these pieces and so friction alone will hold them in place while the glue dries.

[johnny means]

If the parts will stay put until the glue dries without nails, then nails are unnecessary.

[Art Mann]

If the parts will stay put until the glue dries without nails, then nails are unnecessary.

I respectfully but strongly disagree with that statement. Up to a point, the strength of a glued wood joint is directly related to the amount of clamping force applied. Franklin, the manufacturer of Titebond wood glues, recommends 100 - 150 psi for softwoods and 175 - 250 psi for hardwoods. There is no way you will come close to those recommendations without either clamping or some type of fastener.

[Garth Almgren]

Sounds like a job for an edge clamp (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=31154) (or 3)...

[Rich Engelhardt]

I do not own a nail gun, so if I were going to use nails I would be doing it the old fashioned way. The unit will be painted so filling in the nail holes isn't an issue.
Sounds like now might be the perfect time to pick one up. Funny thing about nail guns is they are so handy, once you use one you wonder how you got along w/out one.

[lowell holmes]

If the cabinets are painted, I would use nails.

Pocket screws from the back would have been a good option.

+1 on the nail gun.

[Steve Wurster]

The thing with the nail gun is, it scares me. I actually do own a nail gun; it's an older Porter Cable that I picked up real cheap at an auction a number of years back. I never cleaned it up after I bought it, and I'm not actually sure where it is. So while I do have the gun, I do not have a compressor. I might have to look into getting a cheap compressor; possibly one that comes with a gun. I'll do some searching on here for recommendations.

Pocket holes might work for the (not yet built) upper cabinets since those will really just be painted bookshelves and so I can easily hide the pockets. But the lowers are pre-finished plywood on inside and so the pockets would be obvious.

[Jeff Duncan]

I wouldn't go crazy trying to get a nail gun up and running if your not equipped. Yes they're incredibly handy and I would never be without them in the shop, but not having one doesn't mean you can't build anything. Simply get out your hammer and some 12p finish nails and go to town. Assuming it's a hardwood FF I would pre-drill holes before nailing.

good luck,
JeffD

[Steve Wurster]

The FF is birch, and I was prepared to nail it all by hand and pre-drill first. I still might do that since I can do that right away without buying anything except the nails (not sure how many I have at home!).

Thanks.

[Cameron Hood]

You don't need to buy a compressor to use a nail gun if you are prepared to do a little more work. Buy an air tank, take it to your local automotive service station and fill it with air. You will be surprised on how long a tank of air will last just using it for an air nailer. Might cost you around $50 or so new, but you can probably find a used one for half that much.

[Sam Murdoch]

If you have shelf holes in your cabinet you can do this - Make up a board approx. 1" to 1-1/2" wide x as tall as will fit and at least 1" thick or 2 glued up 3/4" pieces for thickness. Bore holes to match the location of those in the cabinet. You don't need all the holes just at the top bottom and middle. Using straight shelf pins - no spoons or little ledges - maybe some small dowels - set the board into the cabinet holes. This board is now your clamp surface. Attach your face frame with glue and clamp it lightly to the cabinet leveraging against the holey board. You can make this board system even more rigid by using two rows of boards connected with a spacer or in the case of paint grade even add a screw or two. The holes can be filled for touch up.

Not much of an idea and so all for naught if you don't have sufficient and well located shelf holes :rolleyes:. But this is a system that has worked for me in the past and so worth passing along just in case. Also, often at the base and top of cabinets that will end up being trimmed with base board and/or crown there is room to covertly add a screw or two to hold the ff in place. Otherwise reluctantly I agree with those who write that you will want to add a few nails as you glue up. The glue will tend to swell your well fitted spline and will invariably push the ff away in spots.

Alternatively - and I add this somewhat seriously - if the room is small enough or there are some nearby pianos you can also just add some sections of padded 2xs pressure fitted between the facing walls or furniture (:)) and the cabinet. My point being that you can come up with pretty creative - if not desperate ways - to accomplish certain tasks when you really need to. Good luck.

[George Bokros]

How about some blocks, say 2 1/2" long. Get your face frame in place and mark the locations for the blocks. Drill the blocks for screws to the face frame and the cabinet sides. Screw the blocks to the face frames then glue face frames to cabinets and screw the blocks to the cabinet sides.

The mechanical fasteners and blocks will be almost completely hidden inside the cabinets behind the face frames.

[Alan Schwabacher]

For maximal strength and minimal visual line, you need to clamp. But face frames may not need either. While nailing is simplest, you may be able to span the face frame by clamping to the cabinet sides, then clamp the face frame using a wedge between the face frame and the clamp.

I found a picture of this general approach here: http://woodgears.ca/shop-tricks/edge-clamp.html

[Steve Wurster]

I like Sam's idea of using the shelf pin holes. I'm not sure mine reside close enough to the top and bottom to provide adequate clamping force, but I might be able to find some way to use screws at the bottom. The top has adequate space for a clamp.

I also like Alan's idea of using a wedge of some sort. My fear with this one is only having enough clamps to install one stile at a time (I have seven total), and the possibility that the clamps might slide while I'm trying to push the wedges. But I might try a dry-run with this one.

Thanks everyone. I'll ponder all the suggestions for a while and probably dry-run a few of them. I'm sure I'll run into problems with whatever I pick for the real scenario and end up choosing something else after that. :)

[Jerry Olexa]

GLue would suffice but to facilitate the clamping in this case, I'd use a few nails

[Jim Matthews]

If you must use a fastener, is it possible to use a small screw from the inside of the cabinet?

That would draw the two parts together, and not from the show face.
I'm no pro, but I have to think clamps and glue should be sufficient.

The way I've heard it before, pin nails just hold everything in place as the glue dries - the size of the head is too small to exert any clamping force.
I don't do this for a living, so I could very well be wrong.

Lotsa cauls, a few robust clamps - that's how I plan to apply the face frame to my new bathroom vanity.
I'll be affixing several glue blocks inside, to give the face frame more surface area for adhesion.

The hadwood glue blocks will be fixed to both the plywood carcasse and face frame.

[johnny means]

Frankly, I Don't Know Who Franklin Is. Experience tells me that a good friction fit with glue is plenty strong enough to hold a face frame in place well beyond my lifetime. Just for kicks lay a 30" rail on your bench top with a bead of glue on the bottom. Bet you can't remove it the next day.


I respectfully but strongly disagree with that statement. Up to a point, the strength of a glued wood joint is directly related to the amount of clamping force applied. Franklin, the manufacturer of Titebond wood glues, recommends 100 - 150 psi for softwoods and 175 - 250 psi for hardwoods. There is no way you will come close to those recommendations without either clamping or some type of fastener.