Electrical Help Please: Electrical Safety and Rockler

[Paul Wunder]

Please help> Am I being too cautious?

I bought a Router table off/on paddle switch from Rockler. Its web description was "Router Safety Switch", "heavy duty, 15 amps. 110-120 volts."

When I got it there was no mention of any electrical ratings on the box nor on the product. Additionally, there was no typical UL or CE rating.

Rockler states that it i not necessary to be "lab certified" but stands by its electrical rating claim. 139 other people wrote positive reviews on this product on the Rockler website.

Is this typical for a motor switch? Do you think that Rockler should clearly state whether their product was Ul llisted or not?268059

[Mike Henderson]

No, I do not think that Rockler should have to clearly state whether their switch is UL listed or not. UL listing is not a requirement to sell such a product.

Rockler has an incentive to not sell an inferior product: If the switch is unsafe, they will receive bad reviews and could be sued. Because of that I'm pretty confident the switch will meet it's specified ratings.

Mike

[Ellen Benkin]

I've had one for years. It works.

[Jim Rimmer]

I've had one for years. It works.

I've got one, too, and have had no problems with it.

[Jeff Duncan]

I believe the UL label simply means that they've tested it, (for a very handsome fee of course), and it passed their tests. Other than that it's not going to add any level of safety to the device if it's already safe;) If it were unsafe I think you would find evidence of it online as these things don't stay quiet anymore.

good luck,
JeffD

[Matt Day]

I wish I had time to worry about a detail like that!

Enjoy the RT

[Paul Wunder]

OK guys. Thanks for your input. I am not an electrical expert and I was just uncomfortable.

[Jim Neeley]

Paul,

Did you open up the switch box itself? The rating for the switch should be on the switch itself although that's only visible from the inside.

Beyond that, it's just the ampacity of the cable, the size of which is likely inked on the supply cord.

Jim


Please help> Am I being too cautious?

I bought a Router table off/on paddle switch from Rockler. Its web description was "Router Safety Switch", "heavy duty, 15 amps. 110-120 volts."

When I got it there was no mention of any electrical ratings on the box nor on the product. Additionally, there was no typical UL or CE rating.

Rockler states that it i not necessary to be "lab certified" but stands by its electrical rating claim. 139 other people wrote positive reviews on this product on the Rockler website.

Is this typical for a motor switch? Do you think that Rockler should clearly state whether their product was Ul llisted or not?268059

[michael flay]

I am not sure about American rules but I am sure they are like Canadian rules that when it comes to electrical devices of any kind they must have approval from a recognised listing authority, Like ULC, CSA Etc.

[Phil Thien]

I am not sure about American rules but I am sure they are like Canadian rules that when it comes to electrical devices of any kind they must have approval from a recognised listing authority, Like ULC, CSA Etc.

Actually, nope.

[Larry Whitlow]

Personally, and especially the way things are these days, I would not use a electrical component that did not have a UL label. I'm surprised Rockler would sell a non-listed component. Their risk manager must have been on vacation that day.

[Phil Thien]

Personally, and especially the way things are these days, I would not use a electrical component that did not have a UL label. I'm surprised Rockler would sell a non-listed component. Their risk manager must have been on vacation that day.

As Jim Neely mentioned above, the UL stamp may be on the switch itself. Quite frankly I wouldn't care one way or another if the switch is listed. But I certainly don't care if the plastic box or the wire is listed.

[Larry Whitlow]

As Jim Neely mentioned above, the UL stamp may be on the switch itself. Quite frankly I wouldn't care one way or another if the switch is listed. But I certainly don't care if the plastic box or the wire is listed.

Phil, I guess we have different views and experiences on this one ....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I just built a new router station and installed that very switch assembly on it. Curious, I just went to the shop and checked. I couldn't find a UL listing on the housing or the switch but the power cable is both UL and Canadian listed.

The thing I was amazed by though........keep in mind I am deaf and use a cochlear implant to hear...... as I came back to the house in the dark, I could hear the cricket choir singing in the dark. I have been using a CI for about 18 months now and am constantly amazed by how well I am doing.....

[Larry Whitlow]

I just built a new router station and installed that very switch assembly on it. Curious, I just went to the shop and checked. I couldn't find a UL listing on the housing or the switch but the power cable is both UL and Canadian listed.

The thing I was amazed by though........keep in mind I am deaf and use a cochlear implant to hear...... as I came back to the house in the dark, I could hear the cricket choir singing in the dark. I have been using a CI for about 18 months now and am constantly amazed by how well I am doing.....

I am surprised that there is not a recognized testing lab designation of some kind. Ken, I am happy to read about your success with the CI.

[glenn bradley]

I have also run a couple of them for many years, no issues.

[Rick Hubbard]

Same here. I've this same switch on my RT running a 7518 and there has never even a hint of a problem.

[Art Mann]

I have been using the same switch on one of my router tables for several years now. I am about to build yet another table and I may use the same switch. On the other hand, my other router table utilizes a simple on/off switch rated at 20A and I have never wished that I had used anything else on it.

[michael flay]

Actually, nope.

You mean to tell me that you can sell any electrical device in the USA without any type of Listing agency approval?

[Paul Wunder]

What constantly amazes me about this group is everybody's willingness to help. Thanks, again fellas.

[Mike Henderson]

You mean to tell me that you can sell any electrical device in the USA without any type of Listing agency approval?
The thing that makes companies get UL listing is that many insurance companies - when they insure a business - require that all electrical devices be UL listed. So if the product is going to be sold to a business, it usually has UL. But UL is not required by any law or regulation - that I'm aware of.

Mike

[Jim Mackell]

I have one on my router table and I also installed one on my tablesaw. Liked being able to shut it off with my knee when necessary.

[Jim Neeley]

I just built a new router station and installed that very switch assembly on it. Curious, I just went to the shop and checked. I couldn't find a UL listing on the housing or the switch but the power cable is both UL and Canadian listed.

The thing I was amazed by though........keep in mind I am deaf and use a cochlear implant to hear...... as I came back to the house in the dark, I could hear the cricket choir singing in the dark. I have been using a CI for about 18 months now and am constantly amazed by how well I am doing.....

Congratulations, Ken.. That's *great* to hear!! :-)

[Larry Whitlow]

You mean to tell me that you can sell any electrical device in the USA without any type of Listing agency approval?

There is an approval process similar to what you have in Canada and yes, Nationally Recognized Testing Labs are used. My understanding is an item approved by Canada's testing lab (is it CEC?) meets US approval requirements. So while UL is not mandated, it or one of the other nationally recognized testing labs are needed for approval.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Larry,

According UL's website, UL listing or another certification company's listing is not mandated on a national level but maybe by local regulations.

From UL's website:

Do I need to have the UL Mark on my product in the United States? Is there a law stating that my product should have a UL Mark? Does our product require UL testing?

Manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. There are no laws specifying that a UL Mark must be used. However, in the United States there are many municipalities that have laws, codes or regulations which require a product to be tested by a nationally recognized testing laboratory before it can be sold in their area. UL is the largest and oldest nationally recognized testing laboratory in the United States. UL does not, however, maintain a list of the jurisdictions having such regulations.
If you plan to market your product nationally or internationally, it is advisable to obtain UL Listing. If a limited marketing program is anticipated, check with the municipal office having jurisdiction in the particular areas to learn the local retail ordinances or product installation requirements applicable in that area.
Many companies make it their policy to obtain UL Listing not only to minimize the possibility of local non-acceptance, but also as a matter of corporate policy and commitment to minimize the possibility of risk in the use of their products.


Considering that both of the cables (input and output) of the switch assembly are UL and Canadian listed, no metal part of the switch is exposed where it could provide an electrical shock, I am not concerned about the assembly's lack of further certification.

[Larry Whitlow]

Larry,

According UL's website, UL listing or another certification company's listing is not mandated on a national level but maybe by local regulations.

From UL's website:

Do I need to have the UL Mark on my product in the United States? Is there a law stating that my product should have a UL Mark? Does our product require UL testing?

Manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. There are no laws specifying that a UL Mark must be used. However, in the United States there are many municipalities that have laws, codes or regulations which require a product to be tested by a nationally recognized testing laboratory before it can be sold in their area. UL is the largest and oldest nationally recognized testing laboratory in the United States. UL does not, however, maintain a list of the jurisdictions having such regulations.
If you plan to market your product nationally or internationally, it is advisable to obtain UL Listing. If a limited marketing program is anticipated, check with the municipal office having jurisdiction in the particular areas to learn the local retail ordinances or product installation requirements applicable in that area.
Many companies make it their policy to obtain UL Listing not only to minimize the possibility of local non-acceptance, but also as a matter of corporate policy and commitment to minimize the possibility of risk in the use of their products.


Considering that both of the cables (input and output) of the switch assembly are UL and Canadian listed, no metal part of the switch is exposed where it could provide an electrical shock, I am not concerned about the assembly's lack of further certification.

Thanks Ken. Setting the Rockler switch aside (which everyone seems to like), some insurers, and businesses are very specific about using UL. I don't think the Fed's can mandate use of a specific Nationally recognized Testing Lab, but OSHA does certify NRTLs as well as require NRTL approval of certain electrical components. Kind of makes sense if you think about it, otherwise we would have all kinds of hazardous imports.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

No offense....Larry....I can't imagine a company like Rockler would be selling anything that didn't meet the safe minimum standards.

I am not convinced that OSHA regulations necessarily apply to every electronic component sold in this country. I would expect UL and other certification companies would be more than happy to post on their websites if that was manadatory.

As someone who worked on radar and communications equipment in the US Navy for 8 years and then 34 years as a field engineer for a subsidiary of J&J and later retired from GE Medical systems as an FE installing and repairing CT scanners, MR scanners, X-ray equipments, nuclear medicine cameras and ultrasound equipments I have installed a LOT of electrical and electronic components since 1969. It was only my sudden deafness 3 years ago that forced my retirement for safety reasons. I honestly don't remember ever paying attention to whether or not components had UL listings. I ordered parts from the company's parts department and installed what they shipped me. In some cases, I got that CT scanner or MR scanner up by purchasing something locally that was an equivalent. When I received an official company part, I removed the locally purchase part and installed the approved one. I worked with the confines of not only OSHA but originally the BRH which later was absorbed into the FDA.

Osha may require certain components to be certified......maybe this one doesn't require certification?

I will say this. I built a new router table this spring. I installed this specific switch assembly on that router table. I removed that switch assembly and removed the switch. In my 40+ years of electronics experience, based on a visual inspection, that switch appears to be of a significant quality that I don't mind I couldn't find a UL listing on the switch itself.

[Jim Neeley]

The NEC doesn't typically tell you what you *must* do. It provides specifications that, in the professional opinion of the committee members, if followed, will be safe. These are generally conservative and are accepted as "good engineering practice".

Local jurisdictions decide whether or not to accept the code as law, with or without exceptions and additions.

The designated AHJ has the final say as to what is required.

I did a quick code search and, as best I can tell, the code doesn't specifically require listing. It does however state that if a component is listed, the ADJ does not need to assess the safety of the device as long as it's used within the limits of its rating. Otherwise it's a judgement call by the AHJ on whether or not they want to stake their rep on something and some are very conservative that way.

My industrial clients have their own internal specifications requiring listing of all components. Should a listed component be unavailable it requires a Sepc Deviation, signed by their Technical Authority.

If it's in a business environment you add OSHA requirements into the mix, which contain their own requirements for listing of components. That's a much deeper kettle of fish.

Jim

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim,

The kettle gets even deeper when you start going from state to state. Certain states have extremely rigid codes and regulations.

[Thomas Bank]

The thing that makes companies get UL listing is that many insurance companies - when they insure a business - require that all electrical devices be UL listed. So if the product is going to be sold to a business, it usually has UL. But UL is not required by any law or regulation - that I'm aware of.

This would be my concern not only for a business but for residential use as well. We all have heard stories about insurance companies wiggling out of claims on technicalities. If there were a fire (or other incident) and they could prove that the switch was what caused it - or even point to a strong possibility that the switch was involved - I can see certain insurance companies using it to deny a claim.

[Michael W. Clark]

This would be my concern not only for a business but for residential use as well. We all have heard stories about insurance companies wiggling out of claims on technicalities. If there were a fire (or other incident) and they could prove that the switch was what caused it - or even point to a strong possibility that the switch was involved - I can see certain insurance companies using it to deny a claim.

Reading through this post, this is what I was thinking too. I think the retailer would also insist on it for their liability or insurance reasons.

I thought someone said the chord had a UL listing tag? If so, since the chord is part of the product, would this refer to the whole product or only the chord?

[Paul McGaha]

A thread from a couple of years ago, a lot of tools don't have UL labels: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?175166-Tools-not-all-are-UL-or-CSA-certified&highlight=no+ul+label

[Larry Whitlow]

No offense....Larry....I can't imagine a company like Rockler would be selling anything that didn't meet the safe minimum standards.

I am not convinced that OSHA regulations necessarily apply to every electronic component sold in this country. I would expect UL and other certification companies would be more than happy to post on their websites if that was manadatory.

As someone who worked on radar and communications equipment in the US Navy for 8 years and then 34 years as a field engineer for a subsidiary of J&J and later retired from GE Medical systems as an FE installing and repairing CT scanners, MR scanners, X-ray equipments, nuclear medicine cameras and ultrasound equipments I have installed a LOT of electrical and electronic components since 1969. It was only my sudden deafness 3 years ago that forced my retirement for safety reasons. I honestly don't remember ever paying attention to whether or not components had UL listings. I ordered parts from the company's parts department and installed what they shipped me. In some cases, I got that CT scanner or MR scanner up by purchasing something locally that was an equivalent. When I received an official company part, I removed the locally purchase part and installed the approved one. I worked with the confines of not only OSHA but originally the BRH which later was absorbed into the FDA.

Osha may require certain components to be certified......maybe this one doesn't require certification?

I will say this. I built a new router table this spring. I installed this specific switch assembly on that router table. I removed that switch assembly and removed the switch. In my 40+ years of electronics experience, based on a visual inspection, that switch appears to be of a significant quality that I don't mind I couldn't find a UL listing on the switch itself.

Ken, I am a regular at Rockler and agree with your first sentence. My original comment was in response to what was posted. Didn't mean to stir things up. I was associated with loss control for 36 yrs. Not an expert on reg's but had a lot of exposure (more so for fire protection equipment than elect components).

[Jim Neeley]

Jim,

The kettle gets even deeper when you start going from state to state. Certain states have extremely rigid codes and regulations.

I'm with you there, Ken.

As of May 2013,

27 States had adopted the 2011 NEC
15 States had adopted the 2008 NEC
and one "State" (District of Columbia, of course) was still at 2005 NEC.
Seven others leave it to local areas to choose to adopt, or not adopt, the code.

For example, Phoenix, AZ adopted the 2008 but Tucson, AZ is still on 2005, as is Reno, NV.

As you've said, for each of those, some states add additional requirements to the NEC and some provide exclusions, or a combination thereof.

That makes it impossible to give electrical code advice without a bunch of qualifiers and limitations. <g>

YMMV.

Jim in Alaska

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken, I am a regular at Rockler and agree with your first sentence. My original comment was in response to what was posted. Didn't mean to stir things up. I was associated with loss control for 36 yrs. Not an expert on reg's but had a lot of exposure (more so for fire protection equipment than elect components).

Larry,

I didn't think you were stirring things up. I hope I didn't come across being upset, I surely wasn't.

Today while doing other things I was thinking about this and remember seeing some parts like toggle switches that had the UL listing on the body of the switch. On the other hand, I don't remember having ever seen a UL listing on an active electronic component like transistors, diodes, ic's etc. I will say that my memory isn't as good as it once was.

In some applications I can see where a UL listing would be beneficial and reasonable should there be a chance someone could be endangered by a failing device.

The kicker is though, just because something is UL listed doesn't mean the ones coming off the production line were built to the same standards as the ones that were tested. It's like someone saying something was built in a factory that is ISO 9001 rated. I know of at least one ISO9001 rated factory that was shutdown for 12 months and not allowed to ship any products because they failed to maintain the proper paperwork and the FDA discovered it during an inspection. Mind you, the products were fine but the proper documentation wasn't maintained.

[Art Mann]

This is getting pretty far off topic but ISO 9000 is a pet peeve of mine. The qualification involves an auditor verifying that you have documented manufacturing procedures in place and that there is adequate reporting to assure those procedures are being followed. The auditor does not verify that those procedures will produce a quality product because, in most cases, the auditor knows nothing about the processes required for the product being manufactured. It is easy to be ISO 9000 certified and still put out absolute trash. I know because I have been the engineer responsible for the quality of certain components purchased at a large manufacturing plant. Their paperwork was impeccable but their products were not.

I doubt if the little UL sticker on a piece of equipment proves it was manufactured properly.

[Thomas Bank]

Thank you, Art. When I first fully came to understand the ISO quality management certifications, I was dumbfounded... As you say, all it means is that the method is fully documented and fully reproducible.

So you could have the following procedure for making a toasted cheese sandwich (simplified):



Butter two slices of bread with 1/2 Tbsp unsalted butter
Place slices of bread on griddle
Add 26 grams of cheese evenly divided to each slice of bread
Cook until cheese is of melted consistency
Continue cooking until bread is burnt and smoke detector has activated
Remove bread and cheese from griddle, assemble sandwich so that burnt bread sides are together with cheese sides out
Place on standard lunch plate
Serve


And that would fully satisfy the ISO process... You've documented the process and can reproduce it.

[Paul McGaha]

This is entirely a guess but I'm thinking that the manufacturers put there tools thru the UL certification when they think it's needed (to make sales). Say if schools tended to use 20" planers in their wood shops, and tended to specify equipment that was UL certified, then the manufacturers might put their 20" planers thru the UL certification so they could furnish the 20" planers for the schools. The manufacturers might have a completely different view of whether or not to put their 15" planers thru the UL certification. Just guessing here really.

[Larry Whitlow]

Larry,

I didn't think you were stirring things up. I hope I didn't come across being upset, I surely wasn't.

Today while doing other things I was thinking about this and remember seeing some parts like toggle switches that had the UL listing on the body of the switch. On the other hand, I don't remember having ever seen a UL listing on an active electronic component like transistors, diodes, ic's etc. I will say that my memory isn't as good as it once was.

In some applications I can see where a UL listing would be beneficial and reasonable should there be a chance someone could be endangered by a failing device.

The kicker is though, just because something is UL listed doesn't mean the ones coming off the production line were built to the same standards as the ones that were tested. It's like someone saying something was built in a factory that is ISO 9001 rated. I know of at least one ISO9001 rated factory that was shutdown for 12 months and not allowed to ship any products because they failed to maintain the proper paperwork and the FDA discovered it during an inspection. Mind you, the products were fine but the proper documentation wasn't maintained.

Ken, don't give it a second thought -- I did not think you were upset. My feeling is that testing labs provide a valuable service to deem an item will do what it is supposed to do and do it safely if that is of concern. Whether intentional negligence or not, sub-standard components could be produced. This could happen even with the follow up service by UL. Further, a perfect device could be installed improperly or used where it shouldn't be used. And then, there are always those property owners who will improperly modify something (one of the reasons we now use breakers instead of fuses). I think the International Organization of Standards and testing labs like UL are best practices, but nothing is going to be 100% foolproof. I would not be surprised that individual transistors, diodes, & etc don't carry the UL (or equivalent) mark. Let's not talk about memory, at least not mine. We participate in an annual neighborhood garage sale that will be happening next Saturday. The last few days I've been cranking out small bowls and boxes for the sale. Today, I cut the foot off and finished the bottom of a bowl and then realized I hadn't hollowed out the inside. That bowl now has a "decorative" mortise in the bottom.

[Larry Whitlow]

Thank you, Art. When I first fully came to understand the ISO quality management certifications, I was dumbfounded... As you say, all it means is that the method is fully documented and fully reproducible.

So you could have the following procedure for making a toasted cheese sandwich (simplified):



Butter two slices of bread with 1/2 Tbsp unsalted butter
Place slices of bread on griddle
Add 26 grams of cheese evenly divided to each slice of bread
Cook until cheese is of melted consistency
Continue cooking until bread is burnt and smoke detector has activated
Remove bread and cheese from griddle, assemble sandwich so that burnt bread sides are together with cheese sides out
Place on standard lunch plate
Serve


And that would fully satisfy the ISO process... You've documented the process and can reproduce it.

You forgot to specify that the spatula has to show a UL mark.

[Thomas Bank]

Oh, and that the griddle has to be Gen-u-wine Martha Stewart non-stick model, using a Bowie knife to cut the cheese and spread the butter, and that the smoke detector meets ANSI/UL 217.

[Ruhi Arslan]

... Rockler has an incentive to not sell an inferior product: ... they will receive bad reviews ...
Except they remove the reviews that they do not like. They have removed mine and when I questioned, I've been told it was done so because "the product was replaced with a new and improved one". Just to clarify, it was not this product.

[Paul Wunder]

I am coming to Rockler's defense even though I started this thread originally. On the Rockler website I wrote a negative review on the switch because I was not informed up front that it did not have a "UL" certification. However:

Rockler posted my negative review and sent me an email offering to let me return the switch with return shipping charges prepaid (not their usual practice).

Based upon the comments I received here at the Creek I feel more comfortable about using the switch.

I still believe that retailers should state whether a tool or appliance is "electrically certified"

I notice that Grizzly is now identifying various power tools as "SA" certified (for the US and Canada), eg their G0555 14" band saw.

Also, I just purchased an inexpensive "tool starter" switch for my shop vac (turns on the vac when a sander or other tool is started. The switch cost $19.95 and came from Sears with a UL listing. Their model number is #9-24031