3hp shaper vibration

[Justin Ludwig]

Hello All,

Let me preface this post with "I'm new to shapers and making raised panels doors." I started building cabinets in 2008, took a 2.5 yr hiatus to have National Guard fun and play war, and now I've opened my own cabinet shop. I have guaranteed work from 2 contractors that collectively building +/-15 custom homes a year. More than enough to keep me on my toes.

I've been ordered doors when the client wants RP, but I lose profit in doing so. Thus far, the only set of raised panel doors I made were with my router table and a Dewalt 621 (that I eventually burned up) and Makita RP2301FC 3.25hp using CMT's 6 piece cabinet door set. It was tedious making 100 doors and panels (Knotty Alder) that required 2 passes and I was getting sub par results (loose joints). From everything I could read, it was due to vibration. I played with RPM speed and 10-11k seemed to be the best for my application.

Considering I want to make my own doors for the cabinets I build, I decided it was a good time to upgrade. I probably should have researched more, but here's where I stand:

Grizzly G1026 3hp with 1/2", 3/4", 1" spindles (7k,10k rpm)
Grizzly G4176 1/4hp power feeder
MLCS Katana 5 Piece Kitchen Set of cutters all 3/4" bore: Ogee Cope/stick diameter - 2 7/8, Ogee RP dia - 5", Backcutter dia - 4 9/64"

After running through their manual and doing all the checks and set-up I wanted to test it out and make a door frame running the shaper at 10k. It was vibrating enough to cause my stiles and rails to walk across the table. The joint was sloppy. I ran the rails with a homemade cope jig and the stiles with the power feeder. I moved the belt to 7k and ran another frame: less vibration but still some slop (the joint would hold together against gravity), more so than the router bit set. I haven't attempted the 5" RP cutter. I'll don my bullet proof vest and helmet first.

The table doesn't vibrate without cutters installed. The spindle doesn't have play. The pulleys from motor to spindle are aligned. The shaper is on a mobile Shop Fox base.

What is a normal amount of vibration? Am I missing something that isn't listed in the manual? I haven't contacted Grizzly as of yet.

Thanks,

Justin

[Jeff Duncan]

A couple things, first in most cases you should make more money by outsourcing your doors! Most pro shops do outsource their doors for this very reason. In a small start up shop there's no way your going to make more profit making your own doors. Now I'm not telling you to go a different direction, I still make all my own doors as a matter a quality and convenience. Just that in terms of pure cost outsourcing is cheaper. Also make sure your charging enough to cover all your overhead and make a paycheck. Guys building multiple homes a year are generally looking for the cheapest guy in town. It's OK to start out low, but you don't want to earn a rep as the cheapest shop around:o

Now as to your shaper....you should be able to do some work with your machine. If you really end up as busy as you think you will your going to outgrow it. Actually if you have all that work you've already outgrown it, you just don't know it yet;) But it's what you have sooooo.....you say there's no vibration without the cutters installed so you've already narrowed down where the vibration is coming from. I have no experience with the manufacturer your using but you may want to try a better quality set in the future and see what that does for you? You also mention that the joint will "hold together against gravity" which I assume means if you hold the stile out horizontally the rails stays in place? If so that's tight enough, you don't want them so tight you have to force them together.

As far as speed goes 7k rpm's is fine for your sticking cuts, just set the feeder accordingly. For the 5" raised panel it's actually a bit on the fast side, unfortunately the entry level shapers don't give you a lot of options in the speed department. My recommendation would be to make the cut in at least passes.... or more if needed.

You'll never get rid of all the vibration, those machines are just too small and light weight. As long as you can get the cut quality to be half decent just use it and get what you can out of it! Make enough with it that you can afford to upgrade to a better machine.

good luck,
JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

For the fit, the first thing to do is take a look at page 4 of the freeborn catalog regarding spindle alignment.
http://www.freeborntool.com/brazedtooling.pdf#page=1

This adjustment is critical for having the parts fit together right, and there is no reason to expect that it is correct from the factory. My scmi shaper was right when I checked it, but my delta shaper was way off. It took at least two beers (power off) to get the spindle in strait.

I would try adding one cutter at a time to the stack until the vibration starts. Start with no cutters, add the bottom cutter, then try the bottom and middle, then add the top cutter. If you get a big change from one, then this is the culprit. My delta and scmi schapers vibrate very little.

[david brum]

Response deleted

[Justin Ludwig]

@ JeffD - Sorry, I meant the joint will NOT hold together. Also, I've run the numbers and had my miser-of-a-wife (who is an accountant) double check; the profit is minimal but enough to justify me making my own doors. Plus, it's a matter of pride. Everyone sees the doors before anything else, and I want my name on those.

@Stephen - Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.


I find the more I read and learn, the more ignorant I am. It's a bit overwhelming so I'm going to eat this elephant one bite at a time. I'll definitely do more research and advice seeking before my next shop upgrade.

Justin

[Stephen Cherry]

I find the more I read and learn, the more ignorant I am. It's a bit overwhelming so I'm going to eat this elephant one bite at a time. I'll definitely do more research and advice seeking before my next shop upgrade.

Justin

That's true for everybody. Imagine how life was before the internet, with forums and youtube, etc. If you want to read about door making, I would recommend looking at the old threads on this site. Maybe search for "rutter" in the advanced search, as in JR Rutter, who has very generously posted in the door making threads over the years.

[David Kumm]

When I first started woodworking I used a 3 hp SECO shaper and made doors. SECO is not high end, similar to Grizzly but it had no vibration to speak of. Still won't give you the quality of a big shaper with largerer diameter cutters- which you will eventually move to- but the vibration you are experiencing is machine related. It should be better than that, even on a mobile base. Dave

[John A langley]

I have always appreciated everything Jeff D has to say. Either way of making doors or out-sourcing them, they each have their advantage. The biggest advantage to out-sourcing it frees up time. The biggest advantage the way I see it to building your own it puts you in control. I would get no less than 3 shapers, 2 three horse and 1 five horse and two power feeders. Good luck.

[Jeff Duncan]

I find the more I read and learn, the more ignorant I am. It's a bit overwhelming so I'm going to eat this elephant one bite at a time. I'll definitely do more research and advice seeking before my next shop upgrade.

Justin

I've been working with wood in some way my entire life, professionally for almost 20 years and on my own for roughly 12 now. I feel like I know less today than I did when I started:o I can build projects now that I wouldn't have dreamed of attempting back when I started, but like anything else you take one step at a time and keep going! Don't bite off more than you can chew, but don't be afraid to take on the occasional challenge either!

As far as equipment I've wasted many thousands of dollars buying equipment that was not up to the task....probably well over $10k over the years. I've learned the hard way that once you start using your equipment to make a living, you have very different requirements than most of the guys on forums or writing magazine reviews. The best advice I can give you is try to buy the best equipment you possibly can and tune it well. Whether new or used, this is the stuff that's going to put money in your pocket.....or not! FWIW I started out with a router table as most guys do. Then bought a Delta HD shaper.....hated that thing! Next was a Powermatic 27 I bought new, much better machine but still too small for my needs. I finally upgraded to an industrial shaper and just the time I save from not having to sand profiles out anymore has made it pay for itself. I followed similar paths with several of my machines and looking back I somewhat regret it, though like most things in life it was a learning experience and one that's hard to avoid when going at it alone;)

OK now back to the machine, if your joints are that loose I would start at the spindle. Do you have a dial caliper with magnetic base? If not you may want to pick one up....invaluable tool in the small shop! You'll want to check your spindle runout at top and bottom. Ideally you want within .002+/-, not sure how close a Grizzly will be, but you don't want too much more than that or your going to have problems. You'll also want to make sure that the spindle is dead on square to the table when locked. If your off by a tiny bit it will magnify the problem the larger diameter your cutters are! These two things are the most important, if they're good you can still have some vibration without issue. Conversely if they're off, your not going to be making anything accurately!

enough rambling for now.....good luck,
JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

I have always appreciated everything Jeff D has to say. Either way of making doors or out-sourcing them, they each have their advantage. The biggest advantage to out-sourcing it frees up time. The biggest advantage the way I see it to building your own it puts you in control. I would get no less than 3 shapers, 2 three horse and 1 five horse and two power feeders. Good luck.

Thanks for the kind words John:) But you know you really need 3 - 7-1/2 hp shapers right:p

JeffD

[John A langley]

Jeff no argument but you are talking about in a perfect world. What you really want is a $20,000 EZDoor or Unique. I bought one of the first EZDoors and loved it. Got more than I paid for it. I build a few doors and I outsource a few doors.

[Justin Ludwig]

Following Stephen's link to Freeborn, I used a 16" straight edge and it spun around the table at 1/64" clearance and only touch the fence mounting holes. The table is square with the spindle.

Jeff, great minds think alike. After checking the table I grabbed my dial caliper. You answered my question before I could ask it. With the spindle all the way up, I check the top and found a .002 difference and .0015 at the bottom.

Running the shaper with no cutter and putting my wedding ring on the table it "jiggles" but doesn't bounce and walk. Has anyone ever tried putting a rubber washer (from a garden hose?) between the table and mounting bolts? I have a package of them so I'll give it a shot and test the level of table again after install. I won't run a cutter until I hear some more feedback. I'll let you know any differences.

Justin

[David Kumm]

I know it is in the future for you but there is truth to Jeff's words. Skip the middle step and go right to industrial sized shapers if you do a lot of work. I've got less than 10K into two SCMI T130 shapers, one slider, one fixed, including a Univer and an Elu feeder. ( Elu feeders are the best three wheel for a shaper out there that are used and reasonably priced). Both shapers were pristine and had only a few hours and virtually no runout. If you do your homework and look for machines before you need them you can equip a pro shop for pennies on the dollar. Dave

[Justin Ludwig]

I think with this shaper I'm at a point in my shop where I can stop purchasing and start saving for major upgrades. The biggest problem I think I'm going to face in the immediate future is finding quality help. My father-in-law and I "share" his 18yr employee who is worth his weight in gold 100 times over. I've never met a farm boy/valedictorian that has common sense, work ethic, and integrity beyond measure. He leaves for college in 1 week. I tried to convince him that trade craft is better than college. ;)

Back on topic:

The majority of the vibration was coming from the 8 3/4" extension on the front. My ring would dance when out there, but just hum on the main plate. I installed water hose rubber grommets between the table and mount bracket. It took a few cranks here and there to get it perfectly level but it's currently perfect (+/- .001). I put everything back together and spun it up w/o a cutter @ 7k rpm. Now my ring just hummed on the extension and wouldn't do anything on the main plate. I changed pulleys for a 10k spin up. My ring vibrated on the extension, but didn't dance. The MLCS Katana cutters left a sanded fine finish at 7k, so I'm going to leave it there and reduce change-over time for the 5" RP cutter.

Hopefully everything is now fine tuned. Time to make a test frame...

[Peter Quinn]

You've had lots of good advice. I'll reiterate that shaper will probably never give you the performance you require, it will always be "good enough for now" at best, even tuned up. As a pro, time is lost money, sanding takes time, small cheap shaper lead to sanding....you see where I'm headed. Make some money the hard way, use what you have, start planing to dump that thing. Last year I sold my last 3hp shaper to a guy just going out on his own, replaced it with a 7 hp older industrial, it's already earned the full purchase price twice in saved time on side jobs. Thanks again to Jeff Duncan for connecting me to that shaper!

If all else has been addressed, next time you send the cutters out for sharpening, have them dynamically balanced. If vibration is worse with cutters stacked than with empty spindle, it may be the stack. Each gram out of balance adds something like 10# of force at the tips of a 4" cutter, so shaper cutters are typically balanced very precisely, perhaps your set wasn't? I could spin my infinity 3/4" sets at 10k rpm with a dime on the table on the old delta, they cut like glass. I've bought a bunch of large reconditioned cutters from Oella saw, they get dynamically balance pre sale, man are they smooth. Sharp too. I doubt the table is causing the vibration, its a symptom of something out of balance. Think car tires. If your car shakes, could be bad balance, bad allignment, bad hubs? Short list.

Congrats on your business and best of luck, Peter

[Justin Ludwig]

The rubber washers worked like gangbusters. Even the 5" RP cutter hummed right along. I didn't attempt a full pass. I'm skiddish about taking that much meat. The cope and stick joints were just snug enough to stick together. It took a few tries with the power feeder to get rid of snipe on the trailer end of the stiles. I've read about not having to sand burrs and fuzz off of cope cuts, but to actually see it was a good feeling.

Thanks everyone for chiming in and giving advice. It definitely put my mind at ease.

[jack forsberg]

The rubber washers worked like gangbusters. Even the 5" RP cutter hummed right along.


Rubber washers? on the spindle?



jack
English machines

[jack forsberg]

I take it your all talking about full body cutters. i can't see them being to out of balance unless your saw doctors is real bad. If your running large diameters on small machines I would check the bearings if your getting ripple. Most likely there shoot. just the nature of small machines. the better machines have massive bearings set further apart to run heavy heads.

jack
English machines

[Justin Ludwig]

Rubber washers? on the spindle?

No sir. I'm not that crazy.

The place where I was getting the worse vibration was on the extension. My wedding ring would hop around when spinning an unloaded 3/4" spindle at 7k. Putting the ring on the main plate/table, it would "shutter" but not move. This vibration was a little more than my Kreg table w/ a 3.25hp Makita spinning a 3.5" panel bit. Call me crazy, but I wanted a more stable work surface for the price tag. So I checked everything: Pulley alignment (dead on), spindle alignment (out .002 at top, .0015 at bottom), and the table-to-spindle levelness (good).

While working on all that I came up with the idea of putting a rubber washer between the underside of the table and the shaper base to create a dampener effect. I loosened all 4 bolts and took one out at a time, used a cats-paw to pry up just enough to slide the the washer in. It took me 5 minutes to get the table level by tweaking each bolt here and there (rubber reacts just a wee bit different when compressed than steel).

I did the wedding ring test again. At 7k rpm on the extension, it hummed; on the main plate, nothing. At 10k rpm on the extension, it barely chattered, and barely hummed on the main plate. Satisfied with the results, I put everything back together and made a test raised panel door. Aside from me learning more about my power feeder and tweaking my cope sled (darned ol' snipe), I finally made a door that required no pre-assembly hand sanding. There wasn't a fuzz to be found.

I don't have enough experience to rate this shaper or the MLCS Katana cutters I'm using with it, but I will say this: after a crash course in shaper and cutter usage, they make a far better door than my Makita and CMT bit set.

[David Kumm]

Justin, you masked the problem but did not fix it. A shaper should not vibrate to that extent. When you find the time, figure out the real issue there as something is wrong and with a shaper you want everything working properly. Bad things can happen suddenly. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Snipe??? OK how are you running your sticking cuts....against the fence? If so I wouldn't do them like that. Clamp a straight edge that's thinner than your stock to the top of your shaper, the exact distance away from your cutters you want the width of your stiles. Obviously you can only do this with a feeder, but your using one so your set there. Now when you run your sticking it's impossible to have snipe and every piece comes out the exact same width;) I should also add while I'm at it, that you want to remove a little more meat than just the profile. Ideally I try to take off the profile + about 1/16" to get the cleanest results. Now I'm not sure if I misunderstood your point, are you saying you also get snipe with the coping sled??? I don't know exactly how your using your sled, but used properly I can't see any way you could get snipe with a sled:confused: If you elaborate maybe we can steer you through it!

As far as the machine I agree with the others. If there's vibration....then there's a cause for vibration. Trying to mask it with rubber washers is probably not your best solution. The problem with inexpensive machines is it can cost you more than the machines worth to try and get it where it should be:o For instance when I bought my first industrial shaper I took the motor armature and sheave out to get balanced. It made a huge difference but cost me a over $100. Having said that I still say get what you can out of it and make some money to afford better down the road;)

Lastly I wouldn't recommend doing your raised hardwood panels in a single pass on that machine. You can probably do mdf just fine, but hardwoods are going to put a lot of stress on those undersized bearings. I know as I had to replace the bearings on my Powermatic 27 within 2 years of buying the machine!

good luck,
JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

Lastly I wouldn't recommend doing your raised hardwood panels in a single pass on that machine. You can probably do mdf just fine, but hardwoods are going to put a lot of stress on those undersized bearings. I know as I had to replace the bearings on my Powermatic 27 within 2 years of buying the machine!

good luck,
JeffD

Also, multiple passes will allow a decent feed rate for a nicer cut- less chance of burning. Remember, (material removal) x (feed rate) = power, and a 3 hp machine doesn't have any extra.

Also, I would take a look at the weaver door systems site for ideas for setups, plus all the old door threads from this forum, as I mentioned yesterday. There are a lot of great pictures and explanations, and it's makes no sense to try to figure all this out yourself without first looking at how other people did it.

[Justin Ludwig]

@ Jeff - I wasn't getting snipe on the cope cuts. I reread what I wrote and now see that I left mentioning snipe on the stiles. I just needed to modify my cope sled to work w/ the shaper. As for the stiles, yes I was running them against the fence. A few days ago I watched a video of a guy using a fence attached to a t-track and angling his power feeder towards it while running stiles. I plan on building one today. How much space should I allow between the stile and shaper fence? Thanks for the advice on setting the depth to take an extra 1/16. I hadn't considered that.

Short of taking the whole thing apart, which I'm not comfortable with, any suggestions for more trouble shooting? The gibb is tight and allows no play in the spindle, the spindle has +/-.002 run out at the top, the table is plumb with the spindle. The motor and spindle pulleys are level.

@ Stephen - I'm researching like a man on fire. Thanks for the tips and search criterion.

[Mel Fulks]

I enjoyed seeing the ez door video,thanks for posting it. I see no speed advantage.

[Jeff Duncan]

Once I set my outboard fence, (the one the stock will ride against), I then pull the shaper fence so there's about a 1/4- 3/8" gap between it and the stiles. This gives enough room to allow for irregularity in sizes, (which I need for the way I mill these pieces), and keeps it close enough to get decent dust collection.

As for locating the vibration....the way I find the source of vibration is usually through the process of elimination. Start by removing the belts...check result?, remove the pulley....check result?,....continue until you remove the vibration. Once the vibration disappears....you've found the source;)

JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Make sure you have no spacers under the cutters (sometimes one is neccesary)and don't work with cope and stick sets both on shaper at same time. Put some marks on set pieces and try rotating the largest diameter piece to a different position .Make sure spindle lock is working.

[jack forsberg]

Considering I want to make my own doors for the cabinets I build, I decided it was a good time to upgrade. I probably should have researched more, but here's where I stand:

Grizzly G1026 3hp with 1/2", 3/4", 1" spindles (7k,10k rpm)
Grizzly G4176 1/4hp power feeder
MLCS Katana 5 Piece Kitchen Set of cutters all 3/4" bore: Ogee Cope/stick diameter - 2 7/8, Ogee RP dia - 5", Backcutter dia - 4 9/64"


Justin

Justin are you saying this is band new kit? Hard to say if its the cutters as a spindle moulder will run smooth without a cutter in it because the bearings are not loaded.Even with a bent spindle it will run smooth with out a cutter. Do you have a know good cutter? If you ask me you have plenty machine to make cabinets doors and 3 HP is plenty for a one sided panel in hardwood IMO. I would say you got a lemon if its new. Is the spindle seat clean and does it run just as bad with the other spindles in the machine? with a straight edges (steel ruler)clamped between spacer run true to the table?


jack
English machines

[Justin Ludwig]

Jack, I did all those checks. The spindle is not bent, I checked it with a dial caliper. The table is level with the spindle; I used a 16" steel ruler between two bushings. I'll start tearing her apart tomorrow and check it one step at a time.

Do industrial shapers utilize any type of vibration dampening? Just wondering, as I thought the rubber washer was still a good idea if I get every balanced.

[Stephen Cherry]

Do industrial shapers utilize any type of vibration dampening?\

Yup, it's called mass. My little scmi t110 is much more massive than my delta shaper. Every part. And a t130 is similarly more heavy than the t110.

[jack forsberg]

Jack, I did all those checks. The spindle is not bent, I checked it with a dial caliper. The table is level with the spindle; I used a 16" steel ruler between two bushings. I'll start tearing her apart tomorrow and check it one step at a time.

Do industrial shapers utilize any type of vibration dampening? Just wondering, as I thought the rubber washer was still a good idea if I get every balanced.

larger spindle moulders use ABEC 5 to 7 percision bearings that cost in the neighborhood of $250 each. where as your shaper runs small class 3 motor bearing in grease. the difference in size is quite a bit too. the lubrication on the larger ones like Wadkin often run in oil not grease to Keep the Clarence in the bearing cage close(that what ABEC bearing class is all about) and oils let this happen. Generally the lager machines are 1 1/4" spindle that run slower(top end 5000 rpm) but with larger heads diameters to get the rim speeds on the cutters. 6 " under the nut is not uncommon and top support bearing can be had on some makes for longer spindles. HP ranges are 5 to 15 with 7,5 and 9 common on even SCMI.


jack
English machines

[Jeff Duncan]

Do industrial shapers utilize any type of vibration dampening?

I was actually thinking about it a bit and in reality this is such a difficult thing to really fully describe via a written description. In reality every woodworking machine has some vibration from the smallest box store special to the largest industrial machine. The question becomes how much is too much? Smaller machines generally have more for a myriad of reasons, they're lighter, made with cheaper materials, parts are not balanced as well etc., etc.! Larger more expensive machines have better machined parts, larger bearings, and as Stephen mentioned....mass! Larger machines are heavier than they probably need to be in order to add mass to dampen vibration. 2000 lbs of cast iron can really keep vibration down to a minimum! Even so my Martin shaper which is about 1600 lbs, still has a tiny bit of vibration. It's smoother than any of the entry level machines will ever run mind you, but not quite what it should be. I had the armature and sheave balanced, but still have a tiny bit left. Having gone through the machine with a fine tooth comb and getting a lot of good advice and help from the company that did the balancing, we found that it's actually the motor. Being that it's probably over 50 years old it has enough wear on it that it puts out a tiny vibration. I could replace it, but in reality I get cuts as smooth as glass even with a 4" tall corrugated head, so it wouldn't help in any practical sense.....so I just live with it;)

The question is does your machine have too much vibration? If I could walk into your shop and see it in person I could tell you right then and there, but I can't so I have to go by your wedding ring description. It still sounds to me like your machine has more vibration than it should. And I think you may be able to eliminate some if you got through it as I mentioned before. One of the first things I think I'd look at is the belts. Cheap Asian machine probably has some really cheap belt on there? If so that in itself could be part of your problem. Or it could be a combination of tiny imbalances. On most machines and motors parts are not precision balanced. So in theory your armature could be a tiny bit off, your motor pulley a tiny bit off, your drive pulley a tiny bit off all the way through to the spindle adding up to an overall vibration. Heavier machines dampen this out, smaller, lighter machines....not so much. As far as the rubber washers go I'm not sure that's really a good solution. Generally on a shaper you want your top as solid to the cabinet as possible as the weight of the cabinet helps with the dampening. I think eliminating the problem, not masking it, is still the best solution;)


good luck,
JeffD

[Justin Ludwig]

Here's a video of the vibration. I've disconnected the pulleys and pulled the spindle. So basically, I have the motor running that's hooked to the motor mount plate, to the elevation housing, which is attached to the table. I tightened every bolt. I checked the motor spindle for play and the pulleys with my dial caliper. Both check out just fine (+/-.0015 which could be paint or debris).

Am I being unreasonable with the vibration? In understand the wing attachment should vibrate more because it's only side mounted and has not support other than its three bolts.

I found that the spindle cartridge locking bolt loose (1/2 turn). It was allowing .007-.010" of play between loosening and tightening the spindle lock knob. After tightening it, the play went to .001". [edit: the video shows table vibration w/o the spindle engaged so this is irrelevant to the vibration.]



http://youtu.be/490ZUA35_BU

[Peter Quinn]

I'd file that motor under NG in the dumpster. Could it be a cheap pulley? Sometimes the bargain priced imports through a stamped or poorly balanced cast pulley in there. Did you say you pulled the motor pulley off or just pulled e belt? If so, bad motor. My shapers, including my old delta and 1 1/2hp craftsman vibrate less than that with a cutter spinning, the larger ones I could stand my wedding ring on end and it wouldn't move. The motor pulley could have no runout and still be badly balanced regarding weight distribution, which adds a lot of centrifugal force in a pulsing manner, most likely source of vibration. If the pulley is still in the shaft can you pull it and run again?

[Justin Ludwig]

Peter, I only removed the belt. For the video there is: a 3hp motor running connected to the motor mount, connected to the elevation housing, connected to the cast iron table. I can remove the pulley but... I put my magnetic base dial caliper on the machine and measured against the pulley, spun it multiple times and only found .001 difference. Maybe I erred.

I'll yank the pulley off and run it again.

[jack forsberg]

I would call that vibration very bad.Peter i would like to see the welding rod that would be something:):):)
I am with Peter. Try it with the pulley off. Pulleys can be set on shafts amiss and do cause more problems than motors do in general with new kit.
Is this a vee belt or flat pulley?

jack
English machines

[Justin Ludwig]

The belt is a "Gates V-belt": it has memory (I set it on the table and it looks like it still wants to be on the machine). But, it is in good condition, no cracks, abrasions, or wear. It should be, this shaper is "brand new".

BTW - this vibration is with the rubber washers still installed between the table and base. I'll set everything back to factory tomorrow and run it on video.

[mreza Salav]

Not an expert here, have a similar import shaper (identical to Grizzly 1026G) that bought used from a school and replaced all the bearings, it doesn't vibrate anywhere close to this.
Take the motor out and try turning it on by itself or with the pulley. It might start walking across the floor by itself!

[Stephen Cherry]

I just did this test on my delta hd shaper with a 45 year old motor, maybe a 45 year old belt (it's hard as a rock), a nos solid 1" spindle and a freeborn yellow 1.25 cope set. On the main table, no movement of a 15 mm wrench. On the extension, just a slight amount of bouncing, but the wrench is not going anywhere.


On the scmi t110- um, ... no movement.

Justin, my guess is that machine will get you going just fine, and make you a lot of doors. But, I would start scanning craigslist to see when a big machine comes up. That way, if and when you want to add an additional shaper, you will know a good deal when you see it. On average, I see one or two good (I mean almost giveaway) deals per year on industrial quality shapers. When one does come up, I would go and take a look at it. Everybody I have met while buying machines has been very friendly, and willing to share what they know. At least see a bigger machine running so that you have a idea of what to look for. Industrial quality machines are just different animals from lighter machines. This goes for saws also. I have a big table saw, and it always amazes me how it just digests wood without even breaking a sweat. And the big plus of industrial machines is that you can use better tooling.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I only removed the belt. For the video there is: a 3hp motor running connected to the motor mount, connected to the elevation housing, connected to the cast iron table. I can remove the pulley but... I put my magnetic base dial caliper on the machine and measured against the pulley, spun it multiple times and only found .001 difference. Maybe I erred.

I'll yank the pulley off and run it again.


Its not about round, its about weight, you can't weight the pulleys dynamic balance with a claliper. Take a look at a good machined pulley, it's round for sure, but on the top or bottom edges you will see small drill holes where material was removed, sometimes a few of them. You see this on shaper cutters and heads too. They get precisely balanced so they don't introduce a pulse as they spin. Good news is you can buy machined pulleys cheap enough that are balanced if that's your culprit. I'd replace the belt with a VX clogged version, they don't get the memory problems, it may contribute to better overall performance, sure helped with my old delta that had sat for 15 years unused. I put a grizzly tefc motor on my little craftsman shaper, it was relatively cheap but runs very smooth, I suppose you could have a stinker, but that wouldn't be my first guess.

[David C. Roseman]

Justin, just watched your video. This is a new shaper, right? Still under warranty? No way is that much vibration acceptable on that machine, with or without your rubber washers. I have the same model, G1026, bought new 20+ yrs ago. There is so little vibration that a paperclip on the table barely moves. I'd remove the rubber washers to restore the shaper to as-delivered condition, then make another video and email it to the Grizzly techs in Springfield. You shouldn't be the one to fret over this.

BTW, that is a workhorse of a medium-duty shaper. Plenty good, for the time being, for many raised-panel cabinet doors in your start-up business. If things really get rolling, sure, add a 5 or 7 hp industrial-duty machine. Yours will make a great second or third shaper to leave setup for specific cuts. You'll eventually need more than one anyway. :) JMO.

David

[Jeff Duncan]

Yup, as the others have said you have too much vibration going on there! Peter is right on, you have to understand where vibration comes from so you can track it down. Vibration is caused by a moving part that is not perfectly balanced. If your pulley is not balanced, (and it's not), it can 'create' the vibration which then 'travels' through the rest of your machine. That's why your rubber washers weren't a solution as they simply isolated the vibration a bit from the table, they did not eliminate it. Also I don't believe the reason the outfeed vibrates more is b/c of the attachment method. I believe, (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong here), it's simply a matter of the vibration worsening the farther out it gets from the center. If that extension were twice as long I think the vibration would increase dramatically!

You'll need to pull the pulley off just to make sure it's the pulley and not a defective motor.....armatures, just like pulleys, are rarely factory balanced to any degree of precision:( Now I'm going to guess it's just the pulley that's out. If so your easiest solution is to call Grizzly and have them ship you a replacement. However pulleys are fairly cheap, so I might be inclined to shop around and see if you can find a bit higher quality replacement. This is up to you of course, but sometimes it's better to spend a couple bucks and get a part that's known to be good, vs another pulley that's free, but may be from the same bin yours came out of and may or may not be better?

Now just for future reference if the machine were used and/or older I'd suggest taking the motor with pulley to a balancing shop where they can really tweak it out. I mentioned before having my armature and sheave balanced. I wish I had taken a pic so I could post it here, but this was a good quality sheave from one of the larger US manufacturers known for quality product. It was so far out of balance they had to drill and insert a 1/4" bolt to get it balanced! And the armature out of a older GE US made motor, required removing a LOT of material from the aluminum fins, (not sure of the proper name here), on the end. Some had over half the fin removed!

JeffD

[jack forsberg]

Yes motor can be a problem but they really have to be a bad make to cause that much vibration. Bearings are what make motors run good IMO smooth and for the most part even cheep motor have there standard balanced. Some rebuild shops can bend the fins or fan blades and make them sake but motor only spin 3450 RPM(2 pool) top speed. Things like the pulleys are the things to check first. Not that you would not check the motor its just the first thing i would suspect is the pulley.

Here is an old Brooks motor(1950s) i rebuilt(bearing change really) to show how smooth a motor should run. I did not balance the standard but use good SKF bearings that if i remember were about $15 each.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwIqo8GIemY

jack
English machines

[Justin Ludwig]

Jack, I'm impressed. Thanks for the insight on motor vibration.

I removed the pulley and the rubber washers. I double checked to make sure everything was tight. The table has even more weight on it now as the cast iron fence is installed and it weighs a good 30lb.

This machine is brand new. I've made ONE door with it.

I'll be sending these videos to Grizzly Tech support.


http://youtu.be/5D7YyRveXGM

[Justin Ludwig]

http://youtu.be/jmlATk-CLzs

[Stephen Cherry]

Justin- you are very meticulous. I just took the belt off my 3hp delta jailhouse shaper, and it does not have anywhere near that much vibration. That said, I don't know if I would worry myself to death over this, but I would try to learn a few lessons. First, the idea that buying new will reduce problems is a myth (you've heard it, used is buying someone else's problem). Any machine, unless you are spending enough to warrant a complete factory go through, will need to be gone through. Second, research, ask questions, research, ask. This type of website is great because you can benefit from experience that it took people years to develop.

Also, the most important rule of woodworking machines:

One shaper is not enough. Two may be just right, but three is not too many.

[Jeff Duncan]

Wow....that's a lot of vibration for just the motor! I'm slightly surprised as I thought the pulley would have been the culprit, but nothing concerning Grizzly quality really surprises me BTDT:o That would be too much vibration for me to live with in my shop, however I don't know if it's excessive for Grizzly or not? I'll be interested to see what they have to say.

JeffD

[Justin Ludwig]

I don't have enough experience with industrial machinery to knock any vendor. I have owned the G0453PX (15" Grizzly planer) for about year now and it's been a dream planer for me. I haven't had to rotate a blade on the spiral head after about 2000 bdft of soft maple, 700 of knotty alder, and unknown amount of pine (my father-in-law has about 10,000 bdft of yellow pine rough sawn in his barn). I can only compare it to a bench Dewalt planer and a G0453 (3 knife head). I didn't know a planer could be so quiet.

Grizzly contacted me within 30 minutes of receiving my email. One of the CSR's first questions was, "Would you rather a whole new shaper or just a motor?" Then she stated they'll watch my videos and look at the pictures (it arrived quite disheveled from transit) and contact me Monday. Nice to know they care... to be continued...

[Justin Ludwig]

Yes motor can be a problem but they really have to be a bad make to cause that much vibration. Bearings are what make motors run good IMO smooth and for the most part even cheep motor have there standard balanced. Some rebuild shops can bend the fins or fan blades and make them sake but motor only spin 3450 RPM(2 pool) top speed. Things like the pulleys are the things to check first. Not that you would not check the motor its just the first thing i would suspect is the pulley.

Here is an old Brooks motor(1950s) i rebuilt(bearing change really) to show how smooth a motor should run. I did not balance the standard but use good SKF bearings that if i remember were about $15 each.


jack
English machines

Jack, is that motor 1-phase or 3? From what I've read, 3-phase assist motors in running more smoothly and consistent. I'm just thinking of an apples-to-oranges comparison. Either way, I don't think my motor should vibrate enough to massage my back.

[jack forsberg]

Yes that a 550 volt 3 phase motor but single will run just as smooth after start up and up to speed . single phase motor need a way to start( start wingdings, start/run capacitors, rotor induction. and so on) but only on start up are they less refinded
jack
English machine


Jack, is that motor 1-phase or 3? From what I've read, 3-phase assist motors in running more smoothly and consistent. I'm just thinking of an apples-to-oranges comparison. Either way, I don't think my motor should vibrate enough to massage my back.

[Justin Ludwig]

Grizzly sent a new motor and it arrived Friday as I was leaving the shop. Today was a good day to go piddle and install the new motor and test out my new outboard fence, cope jig, and home made arch templates. Wellllllll....

268814268815

They packaged a 64lb motor sitting on 7/16" OSB in a single walled cardboard box and stuffed it with brown paper. You can see the result. I decide to test it anyway. I wire it up while sitting on the concrete with it between my legs (a precarious but necessary position to access the inside of the shaper) and decide to spin it up before I mount it. I want to see how it's vibration compares to the original motor. My butt (on concrete) is about 18" away from the motor when I test run it. I can feel it vibrating. I pull my ring off and it won't sit still anywhere on the motor. It massages my hand.

Thinking I'm being unreasonable (evening after seeing Jack's video of coins standing on end of a running 5hp motor), I take my wedding ring over to my 2HP 230V Shop Fox DC. My DC is about a year old and has had brad nails and small chunks of wood pass through it's propeller (no separator). I start it up and put the ring on the round fan cover. It moves in a slow and very small oscillating circle but never falls off. I expected it to vibrate considerably while spinning that heavy prop, but it doesn't. I know I have a valid argument now.


Question: Should I just send the whole thing back? I've already drilled the table and mounted the power feeder.

[David C. Roseman]

Justin, this must be plenty frustrating. Sounds like you're entitled to do it, but sending the whole shaper back will be a big logistical undertaking. Before I called Grizzly tech again, I'd do a bit more investigation. I'd temporarily wire the original motor on the floor the way you did the replacement and compare the vibration. Then I'd actually install the replacement and do your ring or wrench test on the table. Now you'll be in a better position to help Grizzly tech support solve the problem. (It's Grizzly's problem, not yours). If you still feel there's too much vibration, I'd talk to Grizzly tech and tell them the condition the replacement motor arrived in, and the diagnostics you've done. They may prefer to take back the whole machine rather than send more parts, but you can decide what you want to do at that point. I've had a shop full of Grizzly bench tools for many years, and the very few problems I've had have always been dealt with quite professionally.

David

[Jeff Duncan]

I respectfully disagree with David.....if the motor vibrates it vibrates. Installing it into the machine will not make the vibration go away. It needs to be replaced again.....and again, until hopefully they get you one that works well:o

I don't want to again sound like it's bashing any particular manufacturer, but if you do some reading your situation is not at all uncommon. I've first hand experience as well and will not buy any machines from than anymore....just my personal decision. Only you can decide what's "too much" to deal with in terms of getting your shaper running right. I'm not sure whether or not they'll take it back after it's been drilled out for a feeder? That's something you'll have to work out with them. If not your only option is to keep replacing the motors:(

My advice if they do take it back would be to find yourself a nice 2nd hand Powermatic 27, which will probably cost just a little more than what the Grizzly did, and be confident you have a decent machine.

good luck,
JeffD

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm an electrical tech, any motor with that much vibration has a serious out of balance issue.

Get a replacement motor from them, ask them to package it properly this time...............Rod.

[jack forsberg]

I'm an electrical tech, any motor with that much vibration has a serious out of balance issue.

Get a replacement motor from them, ask them to package it properly this time...............Rod.


that is a replacement motor Rod.

At some point you have to cut bait.

jack
English machines

[Justin Ludwig]

Their customer and tech support has been phenomenal, but the shipping department has fumbled twice. I say twice because of the packaging the shaper initially arrived in (but I won't go into that). They even noted on the packing label for this motor to take extra precaution and care while packaging. I think the only reason I'm tolerant of the situation is because I don't have an current job that requires RP doors. In 2 weeks, I'll be building 100+ feet of cabinets that do, so this has to be fixed.

The customer service rep that called today stated the Springfield, MO warehouse shipping manager was packaging the next motor himself.

If the next motor vibrates or comes damaged, I'm out.

"Ain't nobody got time for that."

[Justin Ludwig]

The 3rd replacement motor came in last Thursday night. I was gone all weekend so I didn't get a chance to inspect and install it until last night. This one was very well packaged and purrs like a kitten. I made a few test cuts and everything was nice and tight. No more vibrating wrenches and walking rings on the table top.

It only took 3 extra weeks.

Thank you to everyone for the advice and information. I think I'll stick around and learn.

[Peter Quinn]

Glad to know this was resolved to your satisfaction. My attitidue, for better or for worse, is that my time is scarce, I get to choose how I spend it, and when working I get compensated. Changing several motors sounds like work to me.....I charge $45/hr......if I buy a new machine under warranty, and it doesn't arrive in working order, I'm not the free shop tech, they can have the whole machine back, they can pay to ship it, or they can figure out how to make machines that work right the first time. Or they can compensate me for my time. Imagine buying a new car, the breaks don't work, or the transmition slips....and the dealer offers to send you some parts. A wood working machine is generally cheaper than a car, but it's more than a bag of peanuts. So hearing stories about a manufacturer quickly sending out parts so the purchaser could fix their new machine by themselves doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Imagine if I built a cabinet for a customer, and I stripped the hinge screws, installed it, later the door sags or falls off. They call me and I offer to send them some plugs and a few new screws? Should that make them happy?

Luckily for manufacturers, most of my equipment is old, completely out of warranty, and wholely my responsibility. Luckily for me it is also solid, reliable, and mostly of quality build. Most of my machines are old enough to drink, some of them occasionally run like they have.

[Jeff Duncan]

Luckily for manufacturers, most of my equipment is old, completely out of warranty, and wholely my responsibility. Luckily for me it is also solid, reliable, and mostly of quality build. Most of my machines are old enough to drink, some of them occasionally run like they have.

Plus 1 !!! Well except the old enough to drink part....many of my machines are old enough to be thinking about how they're going to pay for the kids college :eek:

There's something nice about using a machine that's older than you, and knowing it's built so well someone will still be using it long after your gone:D

[J.R. Rutter]

Glad you got this resolved. You can make money for years with that shaper, but you will be amazed at the difference if you ever get your hands on a big euro shaper.