Should I be dissatisfied (questioning the work of a contractor)

[Scott Larson]

I'm looking for a few opinions or thoughts from others that have had trim work performed by hired help. My contractor was attempting to attach baseboards this afternoon and this is what I came home to. The gap is just shy of 1/4 of an inch and the other joints look nearly as bad. Am I being to picky to believe that they should of done better (obviously I feel that I could of)?

I'm just looking for input as to if others would be happy with this level of work.

-Scott
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw70/baseboardsm.jpg

[Tim Morton]

I would not be thrilled.

[Jim O'Dell]

I have done work similar to this for myself that I chose to live with, but not in an area that is that visable. I can't imagine charging someone for work like this. This person needs a new measuring tape or go back to drywalling where the mistakes can be covered up. JMHO. Jim

[Ray Dockrey]

I would be having a fit. There is no reason for that kind of work. I would be ashamed to leave something like that for a customer.

[Ken Kimbrell]

The husband of one of my cousins is in new home construction biz (low to mid price tract type homes) and if one of his subs try's to pass off that kind of quality they can count on seeing the road real quick.

[Joseph O'Leary]

That is unacceptable work. I, and most certainly my wife, would not have a problem telling that contractor to rip it out and try again.

[mike malone]

Scott..get him to do it properly.
I had a guy start to do stucco job and he mounted the black paper and then proceeded to wrap the house in wire...the wire turned out to be facing the wrong way...as in "inside out". Everything had to be ripped off and redone. D'ya think it's the california heat???
mike

[Roger Bell]

This work is a disgrace and should be an embarassment to the contractor. Personally, I would reject this and all similar examples and withhold payment until corrective action is taken.

That will serve your interests and afford him some necessary education.

[Scott Larson]

Thanks guy's I appreciate the input.

I figured I could help them fill it (put in a small spacer of the molding and perhaps some bondo) but their extreme use of DAP is making it hard for me to repair their fixes :-( Having always done work like this myself, I really don't know what would be considered acceptable workmanship.

To make me feel a bit better, here is the cabinet carcass I made for the kitchen. It will be a computer station when complete and painted (with a false stile hiding the keyboard tray). (thus the strange proportions).

http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw70/computercab.jpg

-Scott

[Jim Becker]

No way I'd pay for that. Even in my own ineptitude, I'd either do better the first time or rip it out and start over.

[Nick Mitchell]

Well, it all depends. Did you go with the lowest bid? Had you seen examples of this companies work before? Have you paid the bill in full?
I wouldn't be happy, but depending on the cost I wouldn't be surprised.

[Jim McCarty]

Definitely not acceptable. I do this for a living in So. Cal. and it would not fly with me. Either make him put in a dutchman that is undetectible or make him redo it. This is what gives good contractors a bad name. jmo, Jim

[Paul Berendsohn]

Not like you really need another vote, but... totally unacceptable at any price and for any reason.

[Kurt Voss]

That's just an expansion joint so when it freezes, and thaws, it won't crack - that is on the outside of your house right?? :rolleyes:

[Steve Elias]

In my previous life I was a trim carpenter and I still do a job or three each year, and I would never allow a gap like that. Even when I've done work as a framer I would be embarassed by such a gap. Allowing for wood expansion is one thing, that gap is quite another ;). Dap is not good carpentry.

-Steve

[Richard Blaine]

Another vote for poor workmanship.

And a rant on how hard it is to find contractors who care about good workmanship in this state. I have yet to do a major project in my house that I was able to pay the contractor in full for. They're just bound and determined to skimp on quality or material whenever they can. And I can't say it's a new phenomen since I've seen it since the late '70s. (Oh and btw, taking the high bid does not guarantee quality work either.)

You go see their reference work, you talk to people, and you discuss how important quality is to you. They agree and elaborate on how good a job they do and the references say how good they were. Then they morph into something else on your job. They start cutting corners and trying to talk you out of using the higher priced materials that you spec'd and they bid on.

In the end, I came to the conclusion that I would rather do the job myself than fight with these people over what is quality work.

I would never hire out a trim job. (And, I know, you probably hired it out because you were booked for time.)

[Vaughn McMillan]

As a former construction inspector, I agree with the chorus of nays on this one. (I was thinking about making a wisecrack about expansion joints, but Kurt beat me to it.) Depending on how much the joints bug you -- and how visible they are, you might consider negotiating a reduced price, but if I was paying full price, I'd want it re-done.

- Vaughn

[Scott Larson]

Thanks again guys for your input.

What’s tough is that the contractor (who, like the example above had good references) really is a nice guy. I don't think he is doing it out of malice, I just think he is in over his head as the job moved from rough framing/sheet rocking to finish work. He seemed to be amazed that I could build cabinets and I suspect his finish abilities are just not well developed. How he has gotten away with it in other jobs I don’t know. Of course it also didn't help that he doesn’t seem to be able to read drawing (LOML's father is an architect in the area and provided drawings/sketches) and even after having my father-in-law go over the drawings, he still messed up several things.

I just wanted some other people’s opinions to see if I am justified in suggesting the need to bring someone into the job with more expertise in these areas. As a result of this thread, I certainly feel this is the case.

Thanks again

-Scott

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

He gets away with it because people don't know any better...simple as that. Last summer I went to a 'Parade of Homes' in San Antonio at The Dominion...which San Anrtonio folks will recognize as THE high rent district in town. Lots of things about these $650K - $1.5M homes bothered me, but most glaring was the incredibly sad finish work and trim paint. Of the 8 or 10 houses we walked through, I think there was maybe ONE that would've passed my quality test.

KC

[aurelio alarcon]

Just pathetic! I could see if this happened once. I mean...mistakes do happen. But if this kind of work is being done throught the job, I'd raise some cane!

[Tim Palmer]

What was this guy's company motto "pound to fit caulk to match". Really I know how you feel about not wanting to be too picky because I can drive some contractors nuts with my need for perfection. If I was you I would see this as an attempt at the contractor to see what he can get away with. This is a true lack of effort and I would ask him what he was think when he did this just to hear him try to explain it. Good luck I hope all goes well.

Tim

[Gary Sutherland]

A trim job like that would bother me every day I had to live with it, which, if you plan to keep the house, is a LOT of bother.

You say he's a nice guy. Do the contractor AND his future customers a big favor, and make THIS job the one where he learns to do it right.

Gary

[Steve Ash]

I am a Residential building contractor, and I do most of the work from framing to trim. There is no way that kind of gap is acceptable at any price. I had a friend who was very picky on exact measurements (he is a tool and die maker) he decided to do his own kitchen instead of paying for it....when he got done there were gaps like the one you showed and I teased him saying "It looks like you measured with a micrometer, marked it with a felt pen, and cut it with a chainsaw".
Bottom line anyone that does this type of work for money should be able to get a much closer fit.

[John Hart]

I worked on a project at a mansion for a millionaire in Hawaii about 20 years ago and he took this question of satisfaction to an extreme. Anything that wasn't perfect, he made them do it over and then forced them to do it for free. (he had the contracts worded so that any breach in timeline or quality meant that they forfeited any payment) This made the contractors very aware of doing it right the first time. Like I said, he was extreme, but it does illustrate the fact that the customer deserves the job to be done correctly.

[Ray Bersch]

I have built houses ranging from low income apartments to luxury masnions - that work is unacceptable in any one of those that I built. No bondo, no short stubs, no more caulk, nothing but replacement, and he pays for material - if that is the only spot evidencing this type of work, well, scold him, have him fix it and move on - if that is representative of his work, fire him AFTER he fixes all of it.

Ray

[Bill Lewis]

This person needs a new measuring tape ...
This is probably how he got into this mess in the first place. I never use a measuring tape to fit trim, only for rough dimensions.

My opinion, have him fix it, but do so in a way that he will learn from it.

[Ken Salisbury]

IN SHORT:

TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE

[Jeff Sudmeier]

No way I would accept that kind of work.

That said, finding a good trim carpenter is very hard these days. I am looking into building a house and there are three people that I am looking to trim it out, myself, and two other contractors whose work is good.

Good luck on getting this resolved.

[Silas Smith]

I was walking through a friends house yesterday and the trim guy tried to put wood trim around a curved wall. He cut kerfs in the back of the trim to allow the wood to bend, but it ended up breaking at every kerf and the wall looked like the trim was made of 20 8" long segments put togeather around the wall. My friend is building the house himself so I just smiled and said everything looked great. This was a $400K house in Houston (whick is a lot for you Cal. residents) and every room I looked in made me cringe because the contractors were not held to a good standard. Make the trim guy do it again. Part of the process of learning a new craft like trimwork means having higher waste and redoing mistakes. He will get better, but can you imaging looking at that thing everytime you walk buy it?

[Kevin Post]

I would simply show him the problems and ask him if he believes this is the correct way to install trim. Would he accept that level of quality in his home?

If he says yes, then I would rant. No one would believe that the correct way to install trim is to cut it pretty close and fill in the gaps with caulk.

[Scott Coffelt]

I am sorry, but even if this crew was low bidder, that just ain't acceptable in any circustances. Ask him if he would like to have his payment cut a quarter short, cause apparently his work was.

I know findings good help these days can be hard, but geez, that's horrid. I might let is slide if there was only one case, but if it was common throughout, not payment would be my suggestion. Until fixed on his dime and materials. Not sure the job cost but he may be gone anyways.

[Mark Singer]

Not acceptable....only by about 1/4"!

[Rob Russell]

Another vote in the "not acceptable" camp.

When we did our addition we did stained oak trim. The trim guy installed base blocks at all of the doorways. That makes the transition from door casing to baseboard much nicer.

You can see the base blocks on this webpage. Base blocks (scroll down page) (http://www.plinthblock.com/)

The base blocks we used were just thicker and taller pieces of oak with the same profile as the baseboard. The block means that the baseboard and door casings had something flat to end up on. We didn't use case blocks at the top of the doors - just mitered corners.

It looks nice and neat.

Rob

[Earl Reid]

The problem is TOO many people will put up with this kind of sloppy work.
My motto is , If you satisfy me I will tell others , and if you don't I will also tell everyone.
Earl

[Jerry Clark]

If you have him redo it, then you are helping him learn and be a better woodworker, with happy customers down the road. He won't try that again.:rolleyes:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Unacceptable!

Tell the guy your check for payment will have the same quality as his job.....a lot of 1/4" gaps all the way around! :D

[Bob Borzelleri]

We have been in our house a bit over a year. The finish carpentry is exactly what we were hoping for with the craftsman design. The designer had spec'd 4" stain grade fir baseboards throughout the house and when I stopped by one day I noticed that they had pulled out two rooms worth of 4" and redid the whole house with 6" with a trim bead at the base. I just looked a bit quizzically and was told, "We just didn't like how the 4" fit in with the overall design so we went with 6", hope you like it." And, they did it on their own dime. My builder turned out to be one of those craftsmen you lay awake at night a pray for after deciding to start a house from scratch. Virtually all his subs have been with him for at least 10 years and one (the finish carpenter) for nearly 20 years. Here's a couple of photos (I hope):

A bit up the road, a friend is finishing his home as general contractor. His subs have represented the full range of compentency and responsibility, Ironically, he has several examples of the sort of "joinery" that was depicted in the opening of this thread.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Don't pay him. Have the work done at his expense. That is simply a poor cut that there is no excuse for.

[Ellen Benkin]

I don't even begin to think of myself as a "finish" carpenter, and I've done better work than that for Habitat for Humanity. Other than very sloppy measuring, there is no reason for such a big gap. In fact, we used to leave the baseboards a little long and squeeze them in to prevent these kinds of mistakes. I just hope you didn't pay the final bill because someone will have to buy new material to get it done right. I also would not accept inserting a dutchman to fix the problem. Do you think your contractor hired guys off the street to do this work? I can't imagine anyone with any experience doing this.

[Ed Blough]

In Tampa we have a thing called street of dreams where various builders build multimillion-dollar houses in one area and open the homes for a few weeks for tours. The money goes to some charity.

In any case I noticed in nearly every house the finish carpentry was very similar to your picture. In one house they used oak shelving made from two oak rails with oak dowels in between. It was beautiful until you looked at the end and noticed the saw burn marks. The ends were visible upon entry to the closet. In other words you would see this everyday.

One house had a white painted bead board ceiling. The installers left gaps as wide as 1/4 inch between the boards and with ceiling being painted white these wide black gaps stood out like a sore thumb. Can you imagine laying on the couch every evening looking at the ceiling of your multimillion-dollar house and seeing a ceiling that looked like a roof on a tree house.

In nearly all the houses the front doors hung crooked. In one the swing end of the door was nearly an inch lower than the hinge edge.

Cabinets and counters in baths and kitchen had gaps between them and the wall some as wide as a 1/2 inch. Windows, ceiling fixtures, arches in many cases were not centered. In kitchen the one or two cabinet door or drawer fronts were lower or higher than neighboring pieces.

To me the finish work was a disgrace, and beyond belief.

I noticed these things so I sort of hung out listening to what people were saying. To my amazement I heard remarks like, "did you notice the attention to detail?", "These were real craftsmen" and "notice how everything is perfectly aligned and everything was done with particular care." Or "I'm amazed at the level of craftsmanship in these homes, I didn't know you could get work like this done in Tampa." or "Boy these homes personify craftsmanship"

Folks I'm not joking while I don't know the how the rest of the house was built but the finish carpentry in all these homes from different builders were what I would call unacceptable in a tract home yet the people were raving about it. I never heard one negative comment. Even after I pointed out the door in one case the person’s response was "once you put a throw rug there you will never see it." I was shocked.

Makes you wonder what their house looks like, but more importantly do people even value craftsmanship or do they just use the words because they sound good.

So when I see pictures like yours I'm not surprized. People have been conditioned to accept this kind of work and call it good.

[Bruce Page]

I'd have them rip it out, start over, and do it right.

[John Hemenway]

Similar to Ed's experiences, my wife and I toured some open houses last weekend. These were all $1.5 mil and above houses. I was shocked at the poor workmanship and cheap materials. Almost every door trim miter was open, the kitchen cabinets featured stapled, particle board drawers w/ slides that retail for $4! Made me wonder what kind of shortcuts were taken on the parts we couldn't see.

In all fairness, $1.5 mil will soon be a 'starter' home in this part of California :(

Back on track -- get the contractor to fix it!

[Jim Reed]

Nothing that can't be fixed in a few minutes on the board stretcher.

[Scott Larson]

Jim,

I like that idea a lot..."the board stretcher"

A medieval device to make the board pay its penitence for being cut to short.

;)

I want to thank everyone again for their input and advice. You probabily don't have to respond anymore as I feel comfortable in the general direction of the comments. I'm going to do a number of test cuts this weekend both back-beveling and using the "nip and tuck" method (I read about at Gary Katz's website) so that I can show the contractor how we should procede. I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

I'm always thankful to have access to such a wonderful virtual community.

-Scott

[John Cavanaugh]

Jim,

I like that idea a lot..."the board stretcher"

A medieval device to make the board pay its penitence for being cut to short.

;)

I want to thank everyone again for their input and advice. You probabily don't have to respond anymore as I feel comfortable in the general direction of the comments. I'm going to do a number of test cuts this weekend both back-beveling and using the "nip and tuck" method (I read about at Gary Katz's website) so that I can show the contractor how we should procede. I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

I'm always thankful to have access to such a wonderful virtual community.

-Scott


Whats the address of that website?? Im getting ready to put some baseboards in my house and I could use any additional pointers

--
John Cavanaugh

[Chip Olson]

To my amazement I heard remarks like, "did you notice the attention to detail?", "These were real craftsmen" and "notice how everything is perfectly aligned and everything was done with particular care." Or "I'm amazed at the level of craftsmanship in these homes, I didn't know you could get work like this done in Tampa." or "Boy these homes personify craftsmanship"
[...]
Makes you wonder what their house looks like, but more importantly do people even value craftsmanship or do they just use the words because they sound good.
Yeah, that. A lot of people don't have a clue what craftsmanship looks like; they think it means pretty wood and expensive fixtures, and that anything priced that high by definition has it (and must be pointed out so you sound smart).

To get my own licks in, I hadn't done a stick of finish carpentry prior to this summer, when I replaced a bunch of door casings (as part of a lead-abatement project) and trimmed out a new window. Did a far better job than that.

[Don Baer]

I just had new tile floors put in the Kitchen and two baths. The contractors wanted to install the trim but I told the contractor that I would do it. I had a hard time believing that a tile setter could also do finish wood work, especially since the only tools I saw him with was a tile saw. The results were more then gratifying and I got the job done for a cheaper price then the original bid.... I know I can't set tile but I also know that I can fit molding.


"A man's got to know his limitations"... I don't know the author.

[Mike Stanton]

I would ask him if he wants to get paid if so it had better be right. Very poor guilty work.If he will not fix it right fire him. Mike

[fred woltersdorf]

I just had new tile floors put in the Kitchen and two baths. The contractors wanted to install the trim but I told the contractor that I would do it. I had a hard time believing that a tile setter could also do finish wood work, especially since the only tools I saw him with was a tile saw. The results were more then gratifying and I got the job done for a cheaper price then the original bid.... I know I can't set tile but I also know that I can fit molding.


"A man's got to know his limitations"... I don't know the author.

don,i set tile floors,walls,i also do finish carpentry,i also do electrical work,plumbing,and painting for a living.you're contractor might have been capable to do the trim.don't judge a book by it's cover.by the way the trim in the original post would get me fired on the spot,what a wood butcher.he must believe in "caulk is your friend"

[John Hart]

..."A man's got to know his limitations"... I don't know the author.Dirty Harry...Magnum Force...1973