What makes a great waterstone great?

[Bobby O'Neal]

Here's the punchline first:

I have all but decided on ordering Stu's set of Sigmas. Just still pondering it a bit because its a chunk of money.


In this pondering, I've wondered if its going to be best to drop about $300 on these particular stones or space that out with other less expensive stones and other tools or materials. I feel like the answer is already "yes, get the good stones and you won't regret it." I think there is the potential to regret a purchase of something like Norton's for example.

So all that said, with the answer almost already in place, I've been wondering what it is that makes the good stones better than the rest? Is it longevity, consistency, etc.? The flipped question is, what sacrifices are being made going with a "lesser" stone?

[Jack Curtis]

As with most products, does the product do what it says it will do and is it backed up by a good seller? I think in the case of Sigma/Stu the answer is yes. As to waterstones vs everything else, I prefer the waterstones, but that category includes a lot more than just the Sigmas (e.g. lots of naturals).

[David Weaver]

The really good ones are point and shoot and the fine ones in the 1.something micron territory and below let you completely ignore stropping. And they work great with anything short of high speed steel.

All of the good quality stones will last a long time unless you waste them away lapping the crap out of them.

In terms of the good premium stones, everything different about the various stones is more or less a matter of compromises.

Something you don't need to worry about with stu is him making his rent on your purchase (i.e., taking you for a ride and selling you junk for big cash), and you don't have to worry about him representing something to be what it isn't.

[Steve Friedman]

Stu is a straight shooter (sometimes too honest) and once wrote (I'm paraphrasing) that there are no perfect stones. They all have warts. The challenge is finding the ones that have the fewest warts. I'm guessing that all stones will get your blades sharp. The question is which ones are quick and pleasurable enough to use that you won't hate having to stop to resharpen your blades.

Steve

[Ron Kellison]

I have a full set of Sigma Power II stones that are remarkable. I'm sure the basic Sigma's are just as good as long as you are not working with HSS metal. I ran the gamut from Arkansas stones, Norton waterstones, Scary Sharp and finally to the Sigmas. They work... for me. Your mileage may vary.

Ron

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I still want some nice stones, but for me, what makes a waterstone great is having it in my hand and using it. Just as the best camera for the shot is often whatever camera you have with you.

This isn't to disparage any of the great stones out there. Certainly, had I known more when I got what I have, I would have gotten nicer. But I've learned, for now, at least, to make work with what I have rather than lusting over what I don't. (And in my current state, can't afford.)

If you *don't* have stones, I think this is a great opportunity to buy right and buy once. (A lesson David never learned with stones ;) ! )

If you do have stones; for me at least, it was worth thinking twice about whether I really needed them or not. I did end up feeling like I really needed to replace my 1000 grit; (My overzealous lapping to flatten a stone that was poorly attached to the base made it unusably thin) so that was to get swapped out - nicely enough a Creeker here helped me out on that front. So far holding off on the rest has won, but I doubt it'll last long!

[Christian Castillo]

The ideal stone would cut fast relative to its grit size, be clog resistant, wear slowly and not require being babied. With that said, what Stu said is right, there is no perfect stone and stones will be strong in some of the attributes I mentioned above, but weak in others. There are definitely tier levels in water stones, but among the best stones, you are choosing which stones strengths match your style best.

[Stanley Covington]

The user is what makes a waterstone great. Depending on the user's level of skill, the cheapest stone will do an adequate job in most cases, be it Noviculite, green carborundum, sandpaper, or baked ceramic waterstone. On the other hand, if one is able to find a stone that matches his (often evolving) level of skill, the work will go faster. But until your skills reach a certain level, you won't be able to tell the difference.

If you are asking the question, however, I must assume your experience with stones is not advanced. In that case, my advice would be to buy the cheapest, single-grit (not combo) three or four piece set of stones you can find and develop your skill by wearing those stones out as quickly as you can. Nothing can substitute for the experience of turning stones and steel into mud.

Until you get into the bizarre upper reaches of the natural finishing waterstone world where super-thin shavings or metallic beauty becomes more important than workaday sharpness, you sacrifice very little if anything by using cheaper stones. Remember, sharpening stones are not an investment or a long-term tool but are turned to mud through use. The better stones will cut a bit faster, or last a bit longer, or not wear out as quickly. But you can pay a lot more for slight increases in performance. The only stone where grit size, consistency, and clogging characteristics really matter is the final finishing stone.

I don't know your level of skill, but I strongly suggest you make a determined effort to learn to sharpen free-hand without jigs. I know from experience that this recommendation will cause heart palpitations in the guys that feel that advocating hand/eye skills sucks the joy out of the woodworking world, cause the guys addicted to jigs to have an emotional meltdown like Betty Davis, and will fan a white-hot anger in the sharpening gurus that hate to hear that something they have not mastered is important, but it is nonetheless the best advice regarding stones and sharpening you will ever get. When you have mastered free-hand sharpening, then the quality of stones will have true meaning for you.

[Rick Fisher]

I have the Sigma stones in 120, 240, 400, 1000 and 13000

My fill in stones are the 4000 + 8000 Norton ..

IMO the Sigma are far superior and much nicer to use .. The 13000 stone is spectacular.. but I still strop on leather..

[Metod Alif]

Stanley,
What an excellent post. Its spirit applies to many other tools as well.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Augusto Orosco]

The user is what makes a waterstone great. Depending on the user's level of skill, the cheapest stone will do an adequate job in most cases, be it Noviculite, green carborundum, sandpaper, or baked ceramic waterstone. On the other hand, if one is able to find a stone that matches his (often evolving) level of skill, the work will go faster. But until your skills reach a certain level, you won't be able to tell the difference.

If you are asking the question, however, I must assume your experience with stones is not advanced. In that case, my advice would be to buy the cheapest, single-grit (not combo) three or four piece set of stones you can find and develop your skill by wearing those stones out as quickly as you can. Nothing can substitute for the experience of turning stones and steel into mud.

Until you get into the bizarre upper reaches of the natural finishing waterstone world where super-thin shavings or metallic beauty becomes more important than workaday sharpness, you sacrifice very little if anything by using cheaper stones. Remember, sharpening stones are not an investment or a long-term tool but are turned to mud through use. The better stones will cut a bit faster, or last a bit longer, or not wear out as quickly. But you can pay a lot more for slight increases in performance. The only stone where grit size, consistency, and clogging characteristics really matter is the final finishing stone.

I don't know your level of skill, but I strongly suggest you make a determined effort to learn to sharpen free-hand without jigs. I know from experience that this recommendation will cause heart palpitations in the guys that feel that advocating hand/eye skills sucks the joy out of the woodworking world, cause the guys addicted to jigs to have an emotional meltdown like Betty Davis, and will fan a white-hot anger in the sharpening gurus that hate to hear that something they have not mastered is important, but it is nonetheless the best advice regarding stones and sharpening you will ever get. When you have mastered free-hand sharpening, then the quality of stones will have true meaning for you.

Stanley brings up very valid points, but I will offer a counterpoint which apply to my particular circumstances: I am a newbie and a hobbyist. Life and work allows me very little precious time at the shop (maybe 2 hours every other week!). With so little time, I takes me forever to learn and master any skill, no matter how simple. I initially bought a set of cheap water stones and tried some free-hand sharpening. Their feedback was poor and my results were sub-par and inconsistent, to say the least. I am sure I would have mastered the skill if I had followed Stanley's route; but with 2 hours/week or less, it was just too slow a process for me. I bought a Veritas Mk-II jig and things improved, but results were still not satisfactory. Later, my wife got me a set of Sigma Power II as a gift. There's virtually no learning curve there; the stones worked great from the get go and the jig works as advertised. My tools are now way sharper and I am not afraid to sharpen again, since I get good results with little effort and can really tell that the stones are working.

Note that my ability to tell now that my results were poor and inconsistent and that the cheap stones had bad 'feedback' is something I can tell now only because the better stones and the jig made it blatantly obvious to me that was the case. Had I stayed with the cheap stones, I am sure I would have eventually figured it out, but as I mentioned, it would have taken me a lot of time (and mastering something at two-hour chunks every other week is probably a very inefficient way to develop muscle memory, for instance).

I am now using my time trying to master other fundamental skills (sawing to a line, for instance!), which is something I enjoy so I don't mind much how long it takes me. If my circumstances change and I end up with a lot more time to dedicate to this hobby, I will probably try to master sharpening without jigs and get much better at it so the results are more a matter of me rather than the stone. But for the time being, getting good stones (and a jig) was a good move for me given my limited time.

I am not advocating this to anyone; I am just sharing my experience with the relevant context, so hopefully it is helpful to the OP in making his decision.

P.S. I currently sharpen my cambered scrub free hand. A scrub doesn't need to be sharp to the degree a smoother needs to be, so it is much more forgiving. And a jig is less helpful here, anyway. But even in this situation, my better stones made the learning process much easier for me, particularly since they are very efficient at removing material and I had already learned to read the feedback on the stones.

[David Weaver]

If you *don't* have stones, I think this is a great opportunity to buy right and buy once. (A lesson David never learned with stones ;) ! )


Yeah, I have a little trouble with that one. One single good set is plenty, though, until you get into sharpening odd-shaped objects, but that can be done cheaply if needed.

[Prashun Patel]

For an expert, I think the differences between good and bad stones are more subtle.

But for a newbie (read, me) to waterstone sharpening, I think a 'good' stone grinds metal quickly, flattens easily, and wears/dishes slowly.

An added + for me is stones that require minimal set up, so I personally like the ones that don't require soaking.

[Chris Griggs]

Regarding the guide vs. freehand question, I'll add that whichever way you do the majority of sharpening may impact what makes the water stone "great". For using a guide all I care about is dish resistance, or more specifically the speed to dish resistance ratio. I want to get the job done with as little wear to the stone as possible since with a guide I can't work the entire surface as well. Basically my goal in this case is to minimize how often I need to re flatten.

If you know how to freehand and know how to work the entire stones surface, dish resistance, to me anyway, becomes less important and what matters far more is what gives me the best most predicable results freehand. This can become very subjective and varies from user to user but when free handing suddenly things like subtle (and sometime extreme) differences in hardness, smoothness, muddiness, the skill (or lack of ability) to work with and around stiction and aquaplaning (which tends to go along with a preference for hard stones) become much important.

Then of course, there are the convenience factors...can you splash-n-go, can you permasoak, how easy or difficult are the stones to flatten. Really though, any of the modern ceramics will be pretty darn good in most of the various measurements of quality.

Anyway, there is absolutely nothing that you will find lacking about the sigmas. They are just very good all around stones that sorta strike a nice balance of speed, hardness, dish resistance, convenience (can be permasoaked and 6k or higher be used with just a splash), and that are extremely predicable in the results they produce.

[Chris Griggs]

Stanley,
What an excellent post. Its spirit applies to many other tools as well.
Best wishes,
Metod

+1. Good to see that Stanley is back sharing his wisdom again. Doesn't seem like I had seen much of him lately.

Nice to to see you back around Stanley! I always read your posts with a lot of interest.

[Charlie Stanford]

Here's the punchline first:

I have all but decided on ordering Stu's set of Sigmas. Just still pondering it a bit because its a chunk of money.


In this pondering, I've wondered if its going to be best to drop about $300 on these particular stones or space that out with other less expensive stones and other tools or materials. I feel like the answer is already "yes, get the good stones and you won't regret it." I think there is the potential to regret a purchase of something like Norton's for example.

So all that said, with the answer almost already in place, I've been wondering what it is that makes the good stones better than the rest? Is it longevity, consistency, etc.? The flipped question is, what sacrifices are being made going with a "lesser" stone?

Somebody mentioned oilstones. I have a couple natural oilstones. I don't know that there's anything necessarily mysterious about using them, per se. I used both sides of the stones and attempt to keep the wear even. Mind the corners and the middle will take care of itself one writer has written. I think that's true.

The Washita has a 'good' side and a 'bad' side and I'm reasonably sure old timers would have sunk this stone in plaster, bad side down of course. I use the bad side often - it's a little grabbier but faster too.

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley brings up very valid points, but I will offer a counterpoint which apply to my particular circumstances: I am a newbie and a hobbyist. Life and work allows me very little precious time at the shop (maybe 2 hours every other week!). With so little time, I takes me forever to learn and master any skill, no matter how simple. I initially bought a set of cheap water stones and tried some free-hand sharpening. Their feedback was poor and my results were sub-par and inconsistent, to say the least. I am sure I would have mastered the skill if I had followed Stanley's route; but with 2 hours/week or less, it was just too slow a process for me. I bought a Veritas Mk-II jig and things improved, but results were still not satisfactory. Later, my wife got me a set of Sigma Power II as a gift. There's virtually no learning curve there; the stones worked great from the get go and the jig works as advertised. My tools are now way sharper and I am not afraid to sharpen again, since I get good results with little effort and can really tell that the stones are working.

Note that my ability to tell now that my results were poor and inconsistent and that the cheap stones had bad 'feedback' is something I can tell now only because the better stones and the jig made it blatantly obvious to me that was the case. Had I stayed with the cheap stones, I am sure I would have eventually figured it out, but as I mentioned, it would have taken me a lot of time (and mastering something at two-hour chunks every other week is probably a very inefficient way to develop muscle memory, for instance).

I am now using my time trying to master other fundamental skills (sawing to a line, for instance!), which is something I enjoy so I don't mind much how long it takes me. If my circumstances change and I end up with a lot more time to dedicate to this hobby, I will probably try to master sharpening without jigs and get much better at it so the results are more a matter of me rather than the stone. But for the time being, getting good stones (and a jig) was a good move for me given my limited time.

I am not advocating this to anyone; I am just sharing my experience with the relevant context, so hopefully it is helpful to the OP in making his decision.

P.S. I currently sharpen my cambered scrub free hand. A scrub doesn't need to be sharp to the degree a smoother needs to be, so it is much more forgiving. And a jig is less helpful here, anyway. But even in this situation, my better stones made the learning process much easier for me, particularly since they are very efficient at removing material and I had already learned to read the feedback on the stones.


I understand Augusto's well-expressed points and agree for the most part. Understand me very clearly here: I am NOT saying that jigs are evil, or that they are the sign of an incompetent, or that they are not worthy and should be shunned like warm beer. I agree that they are a great way to learn the capabilities of a stone relatively quickly independent of one's sharpening ability. However, in my experience, they often become a crutch. It is my opinion that if you don't learn to create a decent edge without using a jig, you will not develop your full potential.

Augusto correctly pointed out that it takes a lot of time to learn to sharpen freehand. But if you never start a job, it will never get done. Likewise, if you always rely on a jig, you will never develop advanced sharpening skills, and your ability to make the most of a particular sharpening stone will be limited. Two of the biggest advantages to freehand sharpening are speed and self-assurance. With freehand sharpening, the blade can often be resharpened in the time it takes to set up a blade in a jig. If you plan to continue woodworking as a lifetime hobby, freehand sharpening skills will eventually add up to a lot less time spent sharpening, and lot more time spent enjoying woodworking.

Another advantage to freehand sharpening is the ability to sharpen odd-shaped blades and knives too thick or thin, or too short, or too skewed, or too curved to be sharpened quickly and precisely using conventional jigs.

And Chris made an extremely important point. Freehand sharpening gives you the ability to uniformly work the entire face of the stone thereby minimizing dishing, saving time and materials flattening stones, and getting more sharpenings per stone than is possible using a jig.

Make no mistake; I enjoy sharpening, and have spent a helluvalot of money on exotic stones, and frequently spend a lot of extra time above and beyond practical sharpening just making my plane and chisel and knife blades appear beautiful (its a Japanese obsession). But I don't enjoy wasting time fiddling with jigs when there is steel waiting to be worked. And my better quality stones are way too expensive to waste using inefficient jigs.

I think you will get a lot more out of whatever waterstones you purchase, and the blades you sharpen, over the years if you take the trouble to learn to sharpen freehand.

Here is the disclaimer: I am NOT saying that freehand sharpening is the only way to get the job done. Nor am I saying that a blade sharpened with a jig will be duller, or less useful, than one sharpened freehand, all things equal. I am absolutely NOT saying that you MUST sharpen freehand to enjoy woodworking, or to be a competent craftsman, or to build fine furniture, or to write books, blogs, or magazines about woodworking, or to promote or sell tools, or to teach woodworking classes. ;)

Stan

[Chris Griggs]

...they are not worthy and should be shunned like warm beer.

Stan, I find your derogatory comment about warm beer short sited and offensive. There are any number of beers typically of low carbonation, particularly of the English variety, that some would argue are best served warm, just as some Saki's are served hot and others are served cold. Please stop trying to force your beliefs upon the rest of us. Some of use enjoy beer in all its varieties, and don't feel as though we deserve to be put down because of it.:D:D:D

[Stanley Covington]

+1. Good to see that Stanley is back sharing his wisdom again. Doesn't seem like I had seen much of him lately.

Nice to to see you back around Stanley! I always read your posts with a lot of interest.

Thanks, Chris. I enjoy your posts too.

I've been busy as a one-armed paperhanger in a windstorm bidding and rebidding and rebidding and rebidding (yes, four times) a hotel project in Kyoto the last few months, and finally got a breather.

Cheers.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks, Chris. I enjoy your posts too.

I've been busy as a one-armed paperhanger in a windstorm

I don't even know what that means, but it sounds extreme. Glad you're getting a breather though.