Nicholson Workbench dogs question

[Adam Petersen]

Hello,

I'm building a Nicholson workbench and had a question about the dogs and the apron. In my old bench I'd just reach under the bench and push a dog up where I needed it. With the nicholson the apron doesn't allow this. How have others handled this?

I've already started the build, it was actually a retrofit of my old bench which was just a laminated benchtop on some cabinets. I wasn't happy with the workholding on the old bench and am excited about the future with this bench. I have some ideas on the dogs but before I do anything I was hoping for some insight from those that have BTDT.

Thanks,

Adam

[Jim Koepke]

By using round dogs that are inserted in the top when needed?

Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

This is my biggest gripe with my Nicholoson. Fantastic bench design in so many other respects, but the dog issue is annoying. One solution would be to buy a few of the little pop bench dogs "prairie dogs" that LV sells. The down side of that is you need to then cover the bottoms of the dog holes so if you want them to double as holdfast holes you can't without rotating the stops out of the way.

What I've taken to doing is using an about 1/4" high planing stop, as a long bench dog. I use one of these guys (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69837&cat=1,41637) but you could easily make your own. They key is to make it as low profile as you will want and to make sure the posts are slightly undersized. The undersized posts allow you to easily pick it up and move it up and down the bench as needed. Since is stretches between two rows of dog holes it also serves as the 2nd dog in the bench when you put a 2nd one in the vise to clamp using two rows.

Like Jim said you can just use dogs that you take in and out as needed, and this is what I did for a while. The problem I had with this was the commercial dogs I was using were a pretty tight fit and I tended to keep them low in the holes so I often couldn't lift them out from top and found my knealing down a lot and reaching under the big apron to push them up from the bottom. This is why I prefer something like the planing stop where the posts are slightly undersized and the "t" shaped top is what stop them from falling through...its much easier to take in and out. I think I've seen little individual t-shaped dogs online that would probably work the same way, but I already had the stop and of the several options I had in my shop its the only one I now use.

[Bill Haumann]

I rarely use dogs with my split top Nicholson bench.
A planing stop, leg vise, a pair of holdfasts, and the split top itself, ably hold everything I've needed so far.
Just this past week I took about four minutes to make a batten (as discussed by "The English Woodworker"), and it's great.
I have numerous dogs from my prior bench laying nearby, I just haven't needed to grab them.
I keep toying with adding a wagon vise, in which case I would definitely use dogs, but haven't had the real need to drive the wagon vise project beyond some idle time planning.

[John Coloccia]

I suppose you could drill a hole in the face of the dog, and fashion a little hook out of some steel rod to fish it out when it gets too low to grab. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that, so there's probably a better way.

[glenn bradley]

I'm with Jim; I keep my dogs off to the side and insert and remove as needed. Not being able to store your dogs in the top is a small price to pay for having the large apron that people build this style for.

[Wiley Horne]

How deep is the apron? I have benches with aprons, and have drilled the dog holes with a brace/bit and 3/4" auger. The regular Jennings or Stanley/Jennings augers will drill down 7-1/2", and that's before you resort to drilling up from the bottom to meet in the middle. It's pretty quick work if you pull the auger out every 2-3" or so to clear chips and clean chips out of the pilot thread so it starts biting again.

Wiley

[Adam Maxwell]

I've never used dogs on my Nicholson bench, which is modeled after Mike Siemsen's with two adjustable wooden planing stops. Tap them from above or below to adjust, and combine with battens and/or holdfasts for more flexibility (split tops are very handy for this).

[Jim Matthews]

Drop Bob Rozaieski a note over at the Logan cabinet shoppe.

I believe he has one large, retractable planing stop which can be adjusted from under the left hand side.
(It would be installed on the other end, if you work Left handed).

That is used in conjunction with a cleat that runs down the middle.

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/podcast-the-workbench.php

[Michael Russo]

The simple answer is to not use dogs. This bench design is really all about simplicity. Using holdfasts and battens is the way to go. I drilled a row of dog holes in my bench and I'm about to cover them up with a patch as they are too much of a pain to use.

If you really must use dogs, then take the easy way out. Keep a scrap of dowel nearby and just push the dogs through when they are too low and re-insert them from the top.

[Chris Griggs]

The folks who have mentioned that this is really a design intended to be used with stops really have it right. I have a stop build into the center of mine in addition to the LV stop I have. The reason I kept using and end vise with dogs though is that I found that when traversing the grain with metal planes the board tended to pull toward me on the back stroke (and NO I refuse to lift my planes on the return stroke). I found this not to be problem with wooden bodied planes but it was annoying enough with metal plane (which is mostly what I have) that when my QR end vise broke I replaced it with another. However, that was before I has seen "The English Woodworker" demonstrate the batton with the notch in it. Someone posted that literally like a week after I got my new end vise and had I seen it earlier I very well may have opted to continue to go without an end vise.

Do get yourself a favor and get some good holdfasts too. I just finally got the Gramercy's after stupidly putting off buying them for years. They are fantastic and are a total steal for under $40 a pair. Seriously just buy them, buy them now, that goes for everyone (and yes I realize I'm about 5 years late to the party on these)

[Adam Maxwell]

The reason I kept using and end vise with dogs though is that I found that when traversing the grain with metal planes the board tended to pull toward me on the back stroke (and NO I refuse to lift my planes on the return stroke).

Yeah, that's annoying unless you get used to lifting the plane, or at least the heel of it. For heavier work, I've used a holdfast in the apron to keep a piece in place on the top; just don't let it stick up enough to catch your hands or plane!

You can do a lot with creative blocking and battens, and once you accept that it's a different way of working, it becomes second nature. If the photo thingy works, here's a shot of my bench top, with planing stops and adjustable battens running lengthwise. In the photo of the front, you can see the planing stop to the left of the leg; just hit it with a mallet to change height. The first project without a face vise was annoying, but I don't miss it now.


http://maxwells.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Tools/i-VH3cc78/0/M/IMG_5190-M.jpg

http://maxwells.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Tools/i-p63qWvX/0/M/IMG_4814-M.jpg

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Nice setup,Adam. That second pic is making me think I might be taking out the brace and adding a couple more holes to my bench. Not how I rip right now, but worth a shot.

[Chris Griggs]

Nice setup,Adam. That second pic is making me think I might be taking out the brace and adding a couple more holes to my bench. Not how I rip right now, but worth a shot.

+1 great setup. That's my favorite way to rip too. I'm planning a 2nd bench at the moment that will be nothing like my nicholson, but seeing that shot makes me want to build a 2nd longer Nicholson as well (mine is only about 5 1/2 ft). I still do love that bench design. 3 benches isn't too many is it?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If you live anything like me, you need one bench to hold all the non-woodworking project junk and tools and parts that ends up accumulating on any horizontal surface, one bench you say is for "assembly" which is really just a nice way of saying it holds all the woodworking-related project junk and tools and parts that accumulate on on any open horizontal surface, and then a third to get any actual woodworking done. So three sounds about right. Unfortunately, I'm stuck at one for the time being. I wish I could get my wife into the same "finish a project for the day, wipe down and put away the tools and parts" method I use in my projects, but I don't dare say anything, because she could trump me with the fact I'm not exactly known for cleaning anything else in the house, and I don't know how much longer I can pull the "but I went into the attic to wire all those lights" and "But I removed the remnants of that chimney" card for any value . . .

[Adam Maxwell]

+1 great setup. That's my favorite way to rip too. I'm planning a 2nd bench at the moment that will be nothing like my nicholson, but seeing that shot makes me want to build a 2nd longer Nicholson as well (mine is only about 5 1/2 ft). I still do love that bench design. 3 benches isn't too many is it?

I like ripping at the bench, since you can avoid repositioning longer stock or (in my case) moving your kids' projects off of the sawhorses! The holdfasts let you use a two-hand grip, also, without worrying about the piece moving around.

If you have the room for 3 benches, why not? After two years of use, I only wish mine were 8-9 feet long; I think it's 7, based on the stock size I could get easily. It has 8/4 tulip poplar top/apron, 2x6 doug fir base…and I even let the lumber acclimate in the shop for a couple days before putting it together! Took a week of evenings and cost about $150, and the only power tool used was a cordless drill. It's mainly half-lap joints, and entirely held together with deck screws.

[Adam Petersen]

I appreciate everyone's input on this topic. Also, thank you for the pics of your bench Adam. It got me wondering if I need to install the face vice on mine or not. I had plans to and still may, but I also looked at just using the holdfasts and my "moxon" vise that I made. I did pick up a few of those ugly blue Kreg dogs at Menards. They seem to work very well so far and I won't lose them in the dog hole. This bench is made of left overs from a shed I built, so it's on the cheap but I think it's going to be a big improvement from my last one.

[Chris Griggs]

Nice work on you're bench Adam. My thoughts on the front vise. Since you went to the trouble to make the slanted legs you should totally make a slanted leg vise. They are wonderful and you can make one with nothing more then a bit of hardwood and $30 vise screw. If you hadn't bothered with the slanted legs I might feel differently but as its they are screaming for a leg vise :-)

[Adam Maxwell]

It got me wondering if I need to install the face vice on mine or not. I had plans to and still may, but I also looked at just using the holdfasts and my "moxon" vise that I made.

Great bench! You'll get a lot of good use out of that, I think. You can do a lot with holdfasts and scraps of wood, once you get in that mode, but it took effort for me at first. Like you, I have a twin-screw vise that I use on top of my bench for dovetailing, and added a crude end vise that's dedicated to resawing. Face vise? Eh, I don't miss it anymore, but I'd hate to be without a crochet.

[Chris Griggs]

I missed that part about the moxon vise. Maybe in that case give it a go w/o a face vise. Might be fun to see if you miss it or not. You can add a leg vise (or any vise) easily enough later if you decide you miss having a vise.

[jamie shard]

Coming late to this conversation... The upside of a Nicholson bench is the efficient use of materials for a strong, stable bench. The aprons add a lot of structure. You fixed one of the downsides by making the top extra thick. That's a great upgrade. The other downside is exactly what you asked about -- accessing the dogs. If I was to build this bench again, I would make the apron start about four inches below the bottom of the top, just enough room to reach in and be able to push up the dogs. It would take some engineering, though, because that tight fit of the apron, to the legs and to the top, is what creates the stability... so maybe I would include some blocking in places to link them together. I think a moxon is the way to go. As much as I like the leg vice for clamping pieces for edge jointing, it's kinda low for cutting joints (which is what takes the most time during a project). I'm thinking of building a small bench on bench style moxon, to get the work higher up. With the holes in the apron, holdfast or clamps or a crochet during the edge jointing of stock preparation. Hope this helps! Great bench!

[Derek Cohen]

There is an answer to the dog question ... get the LV Prairie Dogs. These recess into the bench with a spring, then pop up when needed.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Clamps/05G1022s1.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=70156&cat=1,41637,41645

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Will Boulware]

I built a split top Nicholson and included a Veritas inset vise on the end. I'm currently using 3" cuts of 3/4" oak dowel with a notch cut out of the top, and those are working great. Not as "fast" as having a bench full of square dogs you can just bump up as needed, but they're cheap, easy to duplicate if damaged, and they're working pretty well for me so far. As someone mentioned before, if one gets too low, it's usually easier to hammer it through, pick it up off the shelf, and reinsert it from the top. YMMV.

[Adam Maxwell]

Derek posted a neat solution from LV (naturally!), but I'm puzzled as to why people want to fit an English bench out with dogs. It seems like you're taking a strength of the bench (the apron) and wishing it away with an engineered solution from another style of bench. Maybe if I'd ever used a tail vise and dogs, I'd understand the allure. As it is, I'd suggest following Chris Griggs' advice above: build a project or two, and see what you need for the work that you do.

The Anthony Hay shop blog has a good article on their Nicholson-style benches. Not sure I can link to it here, but google will find it easily. The relevant bit I'm thinking of is this:


One of the most distinguishing features of our benches is their lack of a tail vise and its associated line of dog holes in the bench top. Rather than viewing this as a limitation, we tend to find the benches quite flexible in terms of their use. With only a face vise, a skirt riddled with hold fast holes, and a simple retractable planing stop, each of us can exercise a considerable amount of creativity in finding the best way to hold a given piece for a given operation.

IMHO, Mike Siemsen and Dean Jansa's split-top idea coupled with Bob Rozaieski's batten, is the greatest addition to an English bench, as it's in keeping with the spirit of flexible/creative workholding. My own version allows adjustment without flipping it over.

268114

[Bill Haumann]

How do you like the inset vise?

[Will Boulware]

How do you like the inset vise?

Bill, I'm assuming you're referring to my post on this? The inset vise has been great so far, but I feel like my expectations were in line with where they should have been. It's not a tail vise, it's not a burly vintage iron face vise used on the end of a bench, and it's not a wagon vise. It is, however, a very easy to install item that is great for holding boards for traversing and planing along the grain on the faces, it stays out of the way when i need the full bench surface, it's relatively fast to use, and I've even used it to pull a joint or two apart (think small drawer-sized boxes that you can't get a hammer into to tap apart). I built a Nicholson out of pine because I needed a bench that didn't break the bank and that I wouldn't feel bad about actually working on. This vise fit the criteria I needed, and paired with a leg vise on the front, I haven't found anything the bench won't hold.

Hope this wasn't too much of a thread hijack BTW. I'll try and redeem myself with a few bench pictures if I can find some current ones.

[Will Boulware]

268140

Here's the only shot I could find showing the inset vise.

[John Vernier]

These are the cheapest, quickest bench dogs I could think of. I made a handful in a few minutes and figured they would do until I could take the time to make something better. After a couple of years, I have never felt the need to do so. I figured that with the deep front apron any design which could push down flush would be more of a nuisance than it was worth. I have a handful of these which give me different dog height options, and if I need something different it takes a couple of minutes to make, and cost next to nothing. I do have a heavy planing stop which I find is what I use for the great majority of my bench-top planing needs, but the tail vice and dogs do earn their keep for small items, and for plowing, sticking moldings and suchlike.

[Adam Petersen]

I decided to add the lef vise for now. I went ultra cheap and used a 3/4" pipe clamp. The chop is 3" white oak. Jury is still out if I like it or not. It does clamp like a son of a gun. I think I'm done piddling with it now and am ready to build furniture now though.