Rasps and patternmaker rasps?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi folks!
When working on Frankenplane today, I had occasion to use a set of rasps for the first time. They were inexpensive (just HF brand), but I was able to hog off a lot of wood in a short time.

So Im wondering whether I ought to go out and buy a few good rasps for my toolbox to go with my collection of miscellaneous files. What do you think - should I get some? Does the brand name make a difference on a rasp? Can anyone recommend 2 or 3 kinds of rasp I should buy first ( shape, size, etc)?

I see Nicholson makes something called a patternmakers rasp for around $50. What is a patternmaker rasp for? Is that a good place to start? What would be the advantage of this type rasp over others?

Is Nicholson a decent brand or should I chase down some other brand?

Thanks for giving me a hand,
Fred

[Bill Houghton]

Regular rasps have teeth in regular, symmetrical ranks; patternmaker's rasps have teeth in wavy patterns. Regular rasps are more prone to leaving grooves in the work than patternmaker's rasps. This is a good general statement. I've found some of the older, fine-tooth Nicholson rasps leave very smooth finishes, even if they're not patternmaker's rasps. Some of the coarser rasps leave the wood looking like it was attacked by very hungry beavers. Great for major stock removal, but you then have to get rid of the gouges.

Modern Nicholson files/rasps don't have a great reputation. There are high-end rasp makers - Auriou and others - but their tools are kind of spendy. Slav Jelesijevich, in Chicago, is rumored to have a large enough stash of old rasps to alter the Earth's magnetic field. He posts over on WoodNet, and I'm sure would be happy to talk to you about a good selection of rasps. I don't know what his prices are like, but I bet they're reasonable.

[Sam Stephens]

definitely get a rasp. though i had some sticker shock when I first bought one, I was amazed at how many things I used it for. so get a good one. i don't think i'd waste my time w/ a new Nicholson. Auriou and Gramercy are worth checking out.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Frederick:

I had some Nicholson rasps of varying design, and all they did was frustrate me ( and they were older ones ).
I have a couple Auriou and recently bought three Liogier rasps in LH as I am a lefty. Man! They all make me look like I knew what I was doing!!
I made the Gramercy Bow Saw kit in Yew ( known for its stringiness ) and for making all the curves and contours, the rasps proved invaluable.
The Liogier rasps were a bit less $$ than the Auriou, and the shipping from France was not that bad. Get a quality rasp or three IMHO.

[Prashun Patel]

Try the dragon rasps from stew mac. They are wonderful and not too expensive. Also, send them to boggs for sharpening every so often.

[Chris Fournier]

I have used the Nicholson pattern makers rasps for over 20 years. They have been faultless. I have made a living using these rasps and they have stood the test of time. I endorse them. I have used these rasps to make custom guitars.

[David Barnett]

What do you think - should I get some? Does the brand name make a difference on a rasp?

Yes, and yes. As to the second question, there are several good brands but I'm limiting specific recommendations in this post to Liogier (http://www.liogier-france.fr/?lang=en) as their selection is broad, their quality consistent and they offer their SAPPHIRE temper upgrade (http://www.liogier-france.fr/expertise-liogier?lang=en#innovationsTechniques-en). Of course you won't go wrong buying Auriou (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TAU) or Gramercy rasps (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-CMRASP.XX) (do check these out) from Joel at TFWW (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/more/AU-Info.html), either.


Is Nicholson a decent brand or should I chase down some other brand?

Although my Nicholsons served me well, I'd stay away from Nicholsons of recent manufacture. The only decent #49 or #50 will be new old stock or used.


Can anyone recommend 2 or 3 kinds of rasp I should buy first ( shape, size, etc)?

Rasps being my favorite class of hand tool over all others, I've bought a few, have a few, made a few. Here's my take. If you were to buy only one rasp for the woodshop I'd tell them to buy a 10" (250mm) Liogier cabinetmaker's rasp (http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/tradition/woodworking/rasps/fauteuil.html) in a stitch on the fine side of medium, say a #9. A #8 would do almost as nicely, though. This is a good place to start. If one had to one could do most of their work in a home woodshop with this single rasp.

If you're planning on working with polite domestics and cooperative tropicals such as H. mahogany, the "traditional" temper will do. If, however, you prefer hard, though or highly-silicated tropicals, spring for the "sapphire" temper if the higher initial cost does not deter.

If you want a second rasp and you do smaller pieces, finer details, deep relief or sculpting, a modeller's rasp (http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/tradition/woodworking/rasps/effilee.html)in a finer stitch might be a good addition. Maybe #11 or even #12 in a 7" (175mm) size. Traditional temper would probably be my choice here. On the other hand, if you gravitate to larger furniture with curved elements, a 12" (300mm) could move things along. Again, temper would depend on your wood choices and budget.

The above rasps may seem coarser than some might suggest—stitching can be very fine on some models and brands—but for first rasps, I'd start with these.

Although it's tempting to buy other shapes at first, I'd suggest buying one or two cabinetmaker's or modeller's rasps, get a feel for how they cut and the surfaces they leave then build from there. Unless you already know you need one, you could hold off on rat-tails (http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/tradition/woodworking/rasps/queue-de-rat.html) at first until you know what size or cut will get the most use. There are some pretty useful specialty rasps, though—ironing rasps (http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/tradition/woodworking/rasps/fer-a-repasser-cintree.html), for example, and the handle-maker's rasp (http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/tradition/woodworking/rasps/handlemaker-rasp.html) looks fun—but these can wait, too.

Conventional advice, to be sure, but those are my thoughts in a nutshell.

[lowell holmes]

I have a Nicholson 49 ($50 +/-)that never gets used. I have an Auriou that gets used frequently.

I have a LN card scraper that stays on the bench and is used daily.

In my view, an inexpensive tool that is never used is a waste of money. I have $150 tied up in rasps, but only one good one.

The old saying is that "buy a good tool and cry when you pay for it, however buy a cheap tool and cry every time you use it. :)

[Steve Voigt]

Rasps being my favorite class of hand tool over all others, I've bought a few, have a few, made a few.


Dave, you mentioned rolling your own before, and pointed me to a helpful photo of a barleycorn pick. Care to share any other construction details (material, hardening, etc.) or photos?

[Steve Voigt]

I have no experience with the high end rasps, but agree that the cheap ones suck.
One great low price alternative does exist, however: Vixen files. I get them from yardstore.com for (iirc) $12 each. These are probably import knock-offs, but they work great. They cut aggressively but leave an amazingly smooth surface.

[Brian Thornock]

In addition to rasps, the Iwasaki files can be gotten in coarse and work very nicely. Hog material pretty well, but leave a very nice surface. I use them on guitar necks and love them. Though I am wanting to spring for a Liogier sometime soon.

[John Coloccia]

I have used the Nicholson pattern makers rasps for over 20 years. They have been faultless. I have made a living using these rasps and they have stood the test of time. I endorse them. I have used these rasps to make custom guitars.

Have you seen one lately? They're junk and have been for a few years now. If you gave me a new one, I wouldn't accept it because I'd just have to waste time throwing it out. The older ones where great.

[Jim Belair]

I like these from LV http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=20144&cat=1,42524

I just have the half round but it has served me very well.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/images/item/woodworking/sandingshaping/51w0601g2.jpg

[David Barnett]

Dave, you mentioned rolling your own before, and pointed me to a helpful photo of a barleycorn pick. Care to share any other construction details (material, hardening, etc.) or photos?

I really should get off my fat fundament and scratch out a post or two on homemade rasps before I forget how it's done, Steve. In the meantime, you can Google "john aniano hand stitched some rasps" to see an accomplished bow maker's successful first attempts. That would be bows for violins, by the way, not arrows.

While larger rasps are easier to stitch while learning, they're more challenging to blank and casually heat treat. Smallish rasps and needle rasps are straightforward and fairly easy, though. Yeah, rasps have gotten rather pricey these days, so I'll give it some thought and maybe allocate some effort to the cause.

[tim walker]

Hey now, this is a family site. No talk of rolling your own. COuld get the law in here on us.:cool:

[Steve Voigt]

I really should get off my fat fundament and scratch out a post or two on homemade rasps before I forget how it's done, Steve. In the meantime, you can Google "john aniano hand stitched some rasps" to see an accomplished bow maker's successful first attempts. That would be bows for violins, by the way, not arrows.


It would be great to hear your thoughts on the subject, Dave. In the meantime, thanks for the WC link, and for enabling my tool-building addiction. :D
Now, to get started on that forge I've been planning…

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys. Your replies are really helpful to me. I'll go look at the brands you've suggested and contact the people you identified, then go choose a couple in the types Dave suggested. (Thanks for the detailed post Dave!) But it's absolutely clear that it's worth upgrading to somebody's good rasps. I can swing at least a couple - might need to put off buying that LV shoulder plane, but that's ok too. I'll probably get more use out of the rasps.

I sure appreciate it!
Fred

[David Barnett]

There's a saying that when a child discovers a hammer the whole world becomes a nail. There's probably a corollary for rasps, but I'm not sure how I'd word it.

There is one other class of hand rasp I should mention—not in the same league as a finely crafted hand stitched cabinetmaker's rasp but versatile and nice to have when you need it—the Kutzall structured-carbide-toothed "file" (http://www.kutzalltools.com/kutzall_products_categories.cfm?category_ID=7).

These tough devils have some advantages. For one thing, they'll cut everything from wood to plaster to soft stone to snow tires and do it in all directions—meaning you can rasp in a back-and-forth motion. For another, if they load up you can quickly clean them with a plumber's torch. Also, they're cheap and long-lasting.

While Kutzall also makes a bonded carbide grit version, the rasps I'm talking about (Kutzall calls them "files") have structured teeth like the classic Kutzall Dremel and Foredom burrs or the SSG pointy and more aggressive tooth design also used for rotary grinders. Sculpture supply (http://www.sculpt.com/catalog_98/files-rasps/rebit.htm) houses often carry a broad selection, along with carbide "forms" and rifflers. I suggest an 8" half-round SSG.

Anyway, not quite a patternmaker's rasp but more options are nice to have. I personally do prefer the Kutzall rat-tails to hand stitched rat-tail rasps.

Wish these were larger, but for the big tasks I'm not averse to reaching for an angle grinder with a nice 4½" Kutzall doughnut wheel to get me where more sedate contouring and smoothing can proceed.

http://www.kutzalltools.com/images/photos/large/BHR_8_large.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

Hey now, this is a family site. No talk of rolling your own. COuld get the law in here on us.

Interesting, the upercase CO in could is also the abbreviation for Colorado where the voters decided rolling one's own shouldn't get the law after them.

Freudian slip on the keyboard?

And why is abbreviation such a long word?

jtk

[David Kuzdrall]

I had the same revelation as you a few years ago, then I ordered a few from Liogier and was further amazed, now I have four and don't see any way around them. I am always amazed by how fast you can remove material yet with a light touch you can clean up the cut and start your sanding at 120 grit.

[Chris Fournier]

Have you seen one lately? They're junk and have been for a few years now. If you gave me a new one, I wouldn't accept it because I'd just have to waste time throwing it out. The older ones where great.

I guess that mine were forged by dwarves in Mordor. They are great and I touch them up in acid as required.

[John Coloccia]

I guess that mine were forged by dwarves in Mordor. They are great and I touch them up in acid as required.

http://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/181

This pretty much sums it up well. It has nothing to do with dwarves and everything to do with design changes to the rasps.

[David Barnett]

I guess that mine were forged by dwarves in Mordor.

"Rasps! Don't talk to me about rasps! The outsourced production sucks like a west gate lake limpet," said Moria Local 119 steward Lotar Gudhrinn in his native Khuzdul.

"You couldn't scrape crusted Orc stool from a greased haggis plate with these sorry bum scratchers," he continued while turning the recent #49 in his stubby hand.

"Another decent tool gone to the deepest Balrog pit."


Moria Mines Muckraker, Lithedays edition

[Lee Richmond]

I don't post very often, but I could not resist this thread. There is just so much information, and mis-information, floating around about rasps, that I pity anyone trying to sort thought it. Hence my posting. I have been using and selling files, floats, & Rasps for nearly 20 years now, and in that relatively time I have seen a lot of changes, especially with Nicholson. Until relatively recently, most of the Nicholson files & rasps were US made. I used to tell anyone calling The Best Things and asking for advice on rasps, to start out with a Nicholson 49 & 50, and then branch out from there. They were just such a great value, and worked great. I have been using my own pair for 30 years now and they still cut like new. However, a few years ago, production shifted off-shore, and the differences could not be more stark. I no longer recommend these, although I do admit that we still sell them.

Now I recommend jumping right into hand-cut French rasps. Yes, they are more expensive than the Nicholsons, but you do get what you pay for. Our rasps are made by Logier in France, but they are branded with our house brand. (This is done so that nobody will complain about how low our prices are. We were one of three original dealers in the US for Auriou, before they went bust and reorganized. We had constant complaints that our prices being too low (they seemed fair to me), so now we use our house brand and don't have to have that argument.)

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/hand_cut_french_cabinet_rasps.htm

I am constantly fielding questions as to which is the best rasp to start. I think that a considered answer really depends on what type of work the customer is doing. I personally use the 6 series, 175mm, 13 grain, more than any other rasp. That doesn’t mean that you will though. Having said that, our starters set of three is a good place to start, and they are discounted off of the individual prices.

Somebody in this thread also mentioned Iwasaki. Technically, the Iwasakis are really floats, not rasps. A float has a continues cutting edge from one side to the other, whereas a rasp has teeth. However, irregardless of what you call them, these are great tools, and their price point is very reasonable. One Iwasaki float costs about a third of what one of our Logier rasps cost. So, if you are on a budget, I would start with a few of these.


http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/iwasaki_floats.htm


Somebody also suggested finding old Nicholson rasps, saying that even the standard rasps were great. I must disagree. The standard rasps are great for hogging off wood, but for fine woodworking you will not be happy unless they are the Nicholson pattern maker's rasps. Yes, they were very high quality, but they were not intended for fine work.


I certainly hope that all of this rambling on helps to clarify things a bit,

Lee Richmond
www.thebestthings.com

[David Weaver]

I copied that just in case it runs afoul of the TOS. The nuggets about the house brand rasps being liogier is worth knowing, and I absolutely agree about the coarser common nicholson rasps. Some of them are downright scary looking, and are not dissimilar to an airplane propeller with teeth the size of the sydney opera house.

[Mike Holbrook]

I did not read every word but I don't think anyone mentioned the Japanese alternative, Iwasaki. These rasps are made more like float rasps, with longer cutting edges that work more like a plane blade. These rasps are sort of like Japanese saw blades, very hard, not requiring sharpening for quite a while. Some might question whether or not they can be sharpened by normal media. I love mine. I find they cut very tough wood like purple heart with less tearing than other rasps. I have a few of the Gramercy rasps too. I alternate between the two rasps sometimes as they work quite differently. Another rasp, available at Highland Hardware, that I have used for many years is the Japanese Shinto Saw Rasp. The cutting surface is made up of lots of small, saw type blades, woven together. There are two sides to the rasp with two different tooth patterns. One can easily flip the blade around in the handle. There is also a small nob above the blade which allows the user to get better purchase against the work piece. This may not be the tool for precise smooth work, but if you need to remove a good amount of wood in a given area this is a fine tool.

I just noticed that Highland Woodworking is now carrying rasps made by Narex, with CNC stitched teeth. They start at $11.99, so as one might expect from Narex they are very price competitive.

[Max Withers]

I would love to hear opinions about the relative utility of rasps, files, and floats.

I've been unimpressed with something the local Woodcraft sold me for rather a lot of money as a cabinetmaker's file (marked Nicholson, coarse, Brazil). I live within walking distance of a Woodcraft: blessing and curse. I recently bought one of the Lee Valley Czech hand stitched rasps, and it is better than the Brazilian Nicholson in both finish and aggression, but I haven't used it enough to really get a feel for it. Floats sound like a really good thing for flat surfaces like tenon cheeks, but I don't fully understand them.

My immediate future requires mortises, saw and chisel handles, and some magic wands for my kids, who took some persuading to believe that octagonal handles are superior (I don't have a lathe).

[David Kuzdrall]

I would love to hear opinions about the relative utility of rasps, files, and floats.

I've been unimpressed with something the local Woodcraft sold me for rather a lot of money as a cabinetmaker's file (marked Nicholson, coarse, Brazil). I live within walking distance of a Woodcraft: blessing and curse. I recently bought one of the Lee Valley Czech hand stitched rasps, and it is better than the Brazilian Nicholson in both finish and aggression, but I haven't used it enough to really get a feel for it. Floats sound like a really good thing for flat surfaces like tenon cheeks, but I don't fully understand them.

My immediate future requires mortises, saw and chisel handles, and some magic wands for my kids, who took some persuading to believe that octagonal handles are superior (I don't have a lathe).


I just finished my first dovetail saw build and it would have been impossible if not for my rasps. I have something to the effect of a coarse and med/fine cabinet rasp, a rats tail and a curved handle makers rasp from tools for working wood. I used all four on the handle but could have gotten by with just two (curved handle makers rasp and coarse cabinet rasp).

for this type I work I can not imagine doing it with any other tool set.

[Ed Griner]

Is nobody in the US making decent files/rasp ?

[Bill Haumann]

I've heard good things about Gramercy rasps, not certain if they are made in the U.S. or just sold by U.S. company. I'm sure it would be easy enough to confirm though.

[John Coloccia]

Rasps? Certainly not that I'm aware of. Files? Honestly, I'm not sure where to buy a decent file these days. It may not even be possible to buy a good files anymore, domestic or otherwise. Nicholsons have become so soft that I've had more than one luthier tell me that they've had new Nicholsons go dull after using them on wood for 15 minutes. I THINK Grobet still makes a decent file. I haven't tried one in a while, so I'm scared to recommend them, but I believe their files are Swiss and are still quality, properly made files.

[David Weaver]

Bacho, Grobet Swiss and Pferd are all decent. Unfortunately, they'll cost more than most people want to spend for mill files, etc, when all is said and done with shipping.

ebay is a good place to go for NOS mill files. It's a sucky place to go for saw files, but mill files and half round are out there in large numbers for cheap.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

TFWW's Gramercy files are made in Pakistan, if I remember. (Edit: just checked, and according to the website, yes they are.)

I've made it a point of looking at the file racks everytime I walk into a hardware store, particularly if it's one I haven't been in before - there's usually a handful of US made Nicholson files mixed in with everything else, although it's getting less and less common you'll find that. I've picked up a bunch of useful size flat files that way, although I could still use some decent larger half-rounds.

If you're the type that frequents decent flea markets, it's worth checking those out - often some of the tool mongers will have boxes of NOS files (I picked up some decent vintage Simonds red tangs for saw filing for a couple bucks just the other day.)

[Tony Zaffuto]

I someone is up to a "search", Popular Woodworking had an excellent article on this very topic in either September or October 2004 (I'm not at home where my copy is, so I don't know the exact issue, but I was looking at it a few days ago).

[Bob Lang]

There was an article in the November 2004 Popular Woodworking by Chris Schwarz. At the time, Auriou rasps were just becoming available in the US. There is a more up-to-date article in the June 2013 issue that discusses hand-cut rasps and the demise of the Nicholson.

Bob Lang

[Tony Zaffuto]

There was an article in the November 2004 Popular Woodworking by Chris Schwarz. At the time, Auriou rasps were just becoming available in the US. There is a more up-to-date article in the June 2013 issue that discusses hand-cut rasps and the demise of the Nicholson.

Bob Lang

Thanks Bob for the correct date! The original is one of the best, in discussing multiple makers of rasps and also microplanes.

[Max Withers]

I recently used a much maligned Nicholson Mexican mill bastard to take a 1/4" back bevel off a vintage 2 inch chisel. Took about 2 hours. I have a hatchet to sharpen tonight, I'll see if there's any life left in it. For $4, I don't know how much I can complain.

The point is, I need to buy a $@#% bench grinder.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm surprised you were able to file tool steel at all with a modern Nicholson!

[Max Withers]

Yeah, I was a little surprised too! They're not as good as the old ones obviously, but maybe not as useless as everyone says. Maybe they've improved. Or maybe I just got a soft chisel, we'll see how long it holds an edge.

[Derek Cohen]

For interest, the local hardware store also has very few USA-made Nicholson files left on the shelf. Instead, however, of being labeled Mexico made, they are Made in Brasil.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I was at Lowes today. The Kobalt files didn't look too bad. the flat ones never area as fine as I'd like. I don't know if they are fully hardened,but they are Chinese as are the HF files which I found WERE fully hard. The Kobalt triangular files looked nice,and have fine teeth,too. I haven't tried any of them since I've got a good supply of NOS files. Might be worth buying one to try out. Then report on it here.

[Brett Gregory]

I have some experience with Liogier and their rasps, and I have about 30 of them. I have designed tools for them, which includes the Handle Maker's Rasp (despite what has been written elsewhere, and without acknowledgement of my involvement). Their forthcoming range of Plane & Joinery Floats (they have released two so far) has also been a collaboration between us, as was the Vicious Bastard (a plate rasp in a holder in the same style as used for tangless Milled File Plates).

With regard to the two different types of finish that they have on offer (Traditional and Sapphire) it is not a difference in tempering - the steel is identical in the two. The Sapphire range has a coating which is applied that yields a surface hardness of 3800 Vickers (Tungsten Carbide is about 2283 Vickers). This coating serves a couple of purposes, the main one being to extend the sharpness life of the rasp by up to 4x, and it is particularly aimed at people working with either very hard woods, such as we have in Australia, or hard plastics and soft metals etc. The specifics of the Sapphire coating is a commercial secret, of which I know nothing, other than that it is applied under vacuum, and is the sexiest blue you'll ever see!

The secondary function is that it renders the rasp virtually rust proof, and this is clearly an important factor if you live near the coast (as 80% of Aussies do).

There has been some discussion on how much the coating may reduce the initial sharpness of the rasp. For myself (as a fairly inexperienced woodworker) I would have to say that the coated rasps cut beautifully, but as all my rasps are Sapphire I have never done a comparison. Two of our very experienced chaps over here have tried both types (but in different rasps) and they both prefer the uncoated for sharpness. If you think about it, adding a coating to a virtually dimensionless point would have to reduce the point to something slightly rounded over, but it's a matter of how much effect this has, given that the coating is but a few microns thick/thin.

In about a week I will receive another shipment of rasps, and this will include an uncoated Cabinet Makers 10", #9 grain and I will be conducting head to head tests with my existing Sapphire coated version (with pics and a report). I will also be paying attention to any differences in clogging.

Certainly I can attest to the hardness of the Sapphire coating. As part of the development of the Floats I had cause to sharpen a Milled File (which is essentially a Float) for a particular purpose (and this has become one of the new features of the Float range). In sharpening just one side of this file I went through 3 Saw Files! The sharpening was not as good as it would have been had the Milled File not been coated. In other words - the coating is DAMNED hard.

I have previously postulated a theory about the effect of the coating on the sharpness of the rasp teeth. Think of the tooth as a metal cone that has a layer of Sapphire coating over it. Clearly the wear point is the very point of the cone. Now, one of two things will happen here:

1. The coating at the very point will eventually wear away, leaving the rest of the cone surrended by a fortress of hard coating (a bit like when Bugs Bunny put up the umbrella as they tried to pour concrete down his hole - anyone remember that?). When the coating on the point wears away it will reveal the original steel point in all it's initial sharpness, which would then perform exactly the same as the uncoated rasp, but this newly revealed point would have the support of the coating around the walls of the cone. This would then be a case of the rasp "wearing in" similar to a car engine when it is new.

2. If the coating doesn't wear away then you have a rasp that will maintain it's sharpness for a very long time indeed. In other words, if you are satisfied with the sharpness of the coated rasp over the uncoated rasp then you will stay satisfied for a very long time.

There may be flaws in my argument that I am not aware of. However, for me, getting the rasps coated is a bit of a no-brainer. Yes, it is expensive, but for a longer life it would appear to make good commercial sense.

Liogier rasps are available from Lee Valley now (since early 2013). At this point they only have sets (of 3 I think), but that may change in the future.

[Brett Gregory]

Not sure if these points have been mentioned, but there are three essential difference between a machine cut rasp and a hand stitched rasp:

1. Machines cannot cut to the edges of the rasps, and therefore will result in less precision when creeping up on a line and getting into corners

2. Machines can only cut fairly coarse teeth, about the same as a 5-6 grain hand stitch (where hand stitching can go right up to 15)

3. Unless programmed otherwise the machine will cut very uniform rows of teeth. Hand stitching is ever so slightly random, and it is this slight randomness that results in a better surface finish.

[Brett Gregory]

Files? Honestly, I'm not sure where to buy a decent file these days. It may not even be possible to buy a good files anymore, domestic or otherwise.

Spot on John. There are NO decent, consistently made saw files produced anymore. That situation will change fairly soon if I have my way (and I'm a determined cuss).

I currently have 24 saw files out for "blind" testing by three very experienced chaps, and will be assembling the sorry results this week. The short answer is for 144ppi and finer use a Vallorbe Needle file Cut 4 or Cut 6. For 4 to about 10 ppi Bahcos are pretty good, but can have inconsistencies. 10 to 14 ppi you may find that if you get good ones (and you won't always) the Pferd 5" Double Extra slims should be ok. I know that sounds like way too small a file for that pitch, but that's because the corners are too fat for the pitch that they are supposed to cut.

[Max Withers]

For the record, that Nicholson Mexican mill bastard was pretty much useless after removing roughly 1 cubic inch of early 20th century American cast steel. (it was an OVB chisel, so I don't know the manufacturer, but the steel seemed pretty hard).

Maybe the USA Nicholsons were good for more than a cubic inch?

[Brett Gregory]

Rather than clog up this thread with some extensive posts, I have started a new thread here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?206445-SAW-FILES-TEST-REPORT-extensive-testing-of-23-saw-files-by-3-experienced-filers) which is a comprehensive test report on 23 saw files by 3 experienced filers.

[Julie Moriarty]

I have a Nicholson 49 ($50 +/-)that never gets used. I have an Auriou that gets used frequently.

I have a LN card scraper that stays on the bench and is used daily.

In my view, an inexpensive tool that is never used is a waste of money. I have $150 tied up in rasps, but only one good one.

The old saying is that "buy a good tool and cry when you pay for it, however buy a cheap tool and cry every time you use it. :)

I did a search on Auriou here because I was curious what others said and this thread came up. When I read your post I found that to be my experience exactly. I bought a couple of Nicholson rasps and hardly ever use them. I don't like the way they cut and I don't like how they gouge the wood. I had read a lot about Auriou and had been considering buying one but the price kept scaring me away. And I really didn't know which one(s) to buy. Then I saw a Chris Schwartz video on the L-N site talking about Auriou. At one point he said, "All you really need is..." and suggested three different rasps and what they are typically used for. One I didn't see needing so I closed my eyes and hit the "Purchase" button and bought two.

WOW! What a difference! I love these things! In the week or so I've had them, I have used both more than the Nicholson rasps I've had for a few years. And yeah, I only cried once. :D

[Mel Fulks]

That's useful, Julie. I've always avoided rasps ,too . Just couldn't bear to see that dog chewed looking surface no matter how much wood needed to come off. Sounds like the Auriou might work better than my small carefully placed explosives !

[Jim Koepke]

At one point he said, "All you really need is..." and suggested three different rasps and what they are typically used for. One I didn't see needing so I closed my eyes and hit the "Purchase" button and bought two.

That was kind of my approach a few years ago before the Schwartz article came to my attention. I purchased a 13 & 15 grain cabinet rasp.

I had a few others hand stitched Italian riffler rasps from ebay and yard sales to help me see their value.

Which did you purchase?

jtk

[Julie Moriarty]

That was kind of my approach a few years ago before the Schwartz article came to my attention. I purchased a 13 & 15 grain cabinet rasp.

I had a few others hand stitched Italian riffler rasps from ebay and yard sales to help me see their value.

Which did you purchase?

jtk

I got the 12" cabinet rasp, grain 10 and the 6" modelers rasp, grain 15. Chris recommended the 10" cabinet rasp but I went with the 12" knowing I was going to be tackling the cutouts on a solid body guitar. I'm really amazed how much a difference these tools make. When I take it down with the cabinet rasp and follow up with the modeler's rasp, it leaves about the same finish as about a 100 grit sandpaper, maybe even 120. And no tiny airborne dust particles from power sanding to clog my head. :)

[Prashun Patel]

I am surprised you get no dust. In fact my rasps generate some of the mos irritating dust. On long sessions i hook up a box fan with a furnace filter near where i work, and i am amazed at how much is caught in it. If you are sensitive to dust i would try this experiment yrself.

[Julie Moriarty]

I am surprised you get no dust. In fact my rasps generate some of the mos irritating dust. On long sessions i hook up a box fan with a furnace filter near where i work, and i am amazed at how much is caught in it. If you are sensitive to dust i would try this experiment yrself.

I wouldn't say there's no dust but it's nothing like what is generated power sanding. BTW, I have two of those box fans. They do work. I was sitting on one while while "rasping" just a minute ago.

[Julie Moriarty]

When I made the practice piece for the guitar body, I did the majority of the belly and arm cuts with a 5" Rotex. Then finished up with the rasps. This morning I decided to tackle the real thing using only the rasps. I started with the cabinetmaker's 12" rasp and cut as close to the line as I felt comfortable. I raked light over it to show the cut. The center was cut primarily with the half-round side, while the left and right side allowed me to use the flat side. The flat side definitely left a smoother finish.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Telecaster%20Build/rasp_cab_zps2ec0fe2f.jpg

Then I took the modeler's rasp to it and took that to the lines. Because this rasp is so much narrower, I used only the flat side to do the work.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Telecaster%20Build/rasp_mod_zpsdf5f39f3.jpg

My guesstimation that the modeler's rasp could be compared to 100-120 grit sandpaper was a bit generous. But I'd say it falls into the 80-100 range, depending on how you use it. You can do better than that if you take light passes. All final cuts were made perpendicular to the grain.

Going from the cabinetmaker's rasp (10 grain) to the modeler's rasp (15 grain) was kind of like going from 80 grit sandpaper to 240 or 320 grit. It took me as long with the modeler's rasp to do that last bit as it did with the cabinetmaker's rasp. I can definitely see getting something in the middle of those two for future projects.

What I really liked was the control I had over the Rotex. I think the cut I made with the rasps was more in line with Fender standards than the one I made with the Rotex. But the Rotex won in the dust pickup contest. With the rasps, as soon as I started getting close to the lines, I had to stop frequently and remove the waste so I could see them.

[Bob Lang]

Follow the rasp with a card scraper. It's easy work because the scraper only has to shave off the hills in between the valleys left by the teeth of the rasp. Quick and leaves a smooth surface.

Bob Lang