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View Full Version : Homeopathic Washita-ing



David Weaver
07-28-2013, 10:57 AM
OK, there's not really anything about it that's homeopathic, because everything described below actually did what's shown.

I got a nice #4 from the classifieds in the mail yesterday, and for the first time in a while, someone else did all of the work. Kind of had a jones for a later model stanley, I've developed a soft spot for these later cocobolo handled stanleys, no clue what type they are, I don't follow that kind of thing much. But, they're new enough the parts are usually in better shape, and as long as they're close to flat, there's no issues. And the large adjuster wheel is an improvement.

So, i whipped the plane out of the box, it was literally ready to use (that's great), and then set the cap iron closer (just out of habit) and honed the iron front and back only on a lilywhite and took a swipe off of a piece of beech. Worked pretty good, so I wound the thickness down and literally with nothing else other than a lilywhite and bare leather strop (trimmed all of my tenons on a kitchen cabinet face frame using only the lilywhite, too, and a vintage buck chisel), and was surprised with how thin of a shaving it would take:

267363

7 ten thousandths of an inch (!), from this:

267364

And this:

267365

It did require some time on the bare leather, probably 20 strokes, to get all of the wire edge off, which is much more substantial than it would have been off of the usual shapton finisher (which replaces the leather step), so it doesn't really save any time, but the stone is for play - really like the washitas, and the shame of it is unlike a lot of the super high dollar super quality natural stones, there is no shortage of the natural rock that these washitas are cut from that I'm aware of, it's just a lack of general interest in them that keeps them from being marketed for a reasonable price. No such similar material exists out of pike/behr manning/norton in the newer marketed stones, though, so avoid any new mined stones that use the term "washita" because they are not the same thing. These "pike mine" stones like this vintage stone literally wiped out use of an entire array of various interesting stones in the UK. (not advocating buying a vintage one as smart money, either, they are expensive unless you can find someone asleep at the switch selling them or get one hidden in a lot of stones on ebay, and they don't do anything modern stones won't do, either, they're just more interesting than modern stones).

For reference of shaving thickness, off of a 15k shapton, a complete non-torn shaving will come off minimum size of approximately 3 to 4 ten thousandths of an inch, so it's not as if the washita is duplicating a finish stone, but just how far it will go is interesting. I don't know of any better test for initial sharpness than shaving thickness, and I don't know of any better indicator of longevity for a particular iron than initial sharpness once other variables are set (steve elliot actually put data to this, and for a smoother, time spent honing is rewarded in the balance of things when you look at time between honings).

Side comment about the planes, and the array of things that we hear when we're beginners that just aren't right, in this case we're often told that these types are not good users. The old stanley planes have a milled frog and more mating surface, as does the bedrock line. The frog on these newer stanleys looks like it was subjected to a large belt sander. In use, I actually prefer these newer planes, milling the entire frog serves little purpose in a practical sense vs. a few slivers of contact area if the contact is in the right place (you learn this quickly if you make your own metal bottomed planes by hand). What is offputting about some of the newer stanleys is beech handles, but that's cosmetic and there are plenty with cocobolo. Going later than this one is a bit of a minefield, though, they did drop significantly in quality shortly after these, but this one has the ugly frog,etc and a fairly modern iron that can be just cut with a file.

Tony Zaffuto
07-28-2013, 11:39 AM
I'm hoarding my washita's and figure I have enough for at least 20 more lifetimes!!!!

I with David on the washita's, though I go from that stone to a translucent hard arkansas or black arkansas (depending upon which is handy) and then to a strop. Works great for me and my O1 (though I do have a couple of Japanese chisels, some A2 blades & chisels and one LV high-tech PM chisel)

David Weaver
07-28-2013, 11:51 AM
Tony, when the bottom drops out of the market, you can sell yours to me :). I have four of them, but this is the only pike labeled stone (i stupidly sold a no.1 stone that I had).

I had always passed by the unlabeled very vintage variety (though you can tell exactly what they are) as being too coarse to be useful, but from now on, i'll pick them up.

This and others work fabulously with japanese white #2 chisels. Actually, natural oilstones in general work great for them and preserve the nice shiny hard steel and clouded soft steel that an average natural japanese finisher leaves. I kind of prefer a washita and a translucent for the japanese chisels over the natural japanese stones.

Jim Koepke
07-28-2013, 12:02 PM
[snipped for brevity]

Side comment about the planes, and the array of things that we hear when we're beginners that just aren't right, in this case we're often told that these types are not good users. The old stanley planes have a milled frog and more mating surface, as does the bedrock line. The frog on these newer stanleys looks like it was subjected to a large belt sander. In use, I actually prefer these newer planes, milling the entire frog serves little purpose in a practical sense vs. a few slivers of contact area if the contact is in the right place (you learn this quickly if you make your own metal bottomed planes by hand). What is offputting about some of the newer stanleys is beech handles, but that's cosmetic and there are plenty with cocobolo. Going later than this one is a bit of a minefield, though, they did drop significantly in quality shortly after these, but this one has the ugly frog,etc and a fairly modern iron that can be just cut with a file.

My experience with planes type 15 (1932) and later is it seems this is where the bean counters came in to cut cost. Since my preference is for a low knob, anything made after 1929, type 14, doesn't get my attention due to the ring in the casting for the tall knob. These years also coincide with development of electrical tools resulting in a loss of interest in hand tools. Many of the planes made during this period are fine users. There are also a lot that are real dogs.

Some of the ogee frogs that have come my way have had very bad milling. Sometimes bad enough to not support the blade on one side and not enough material to correct the situation. Sometimes the older frogs have a dished or bowed surface. This is not terribly difficult to correct. My preference is for the full metal contact to dampen any resonance that may occur. Surely if the spacing of the contact area is carefully chosen blade vibration will be dampened. However if not properly spaced it can assist in the creation of resonance.

Many of my pre-1920 planes have had the adjusters swapped out for the larger version.

jtk

Kevin Adams
07-28-2013, 1:59 PM
David, have you ever tried one of the "newer" lily whites that Joel sold for a few years before Norton discontinued them (again), supposedly because they were too expensive to mine and lack of interest? I have one and it is my go-to stone for just about everything. It will raise a burr fairly quickly and then I can lighten up on the honing to remove it, followed by the strop. If I was forced to have one stone, this would be it. I am wondering how it would compare to one of the vintage ones as I have never tried one like in your picture...would love to find one some day.

Thanks.
Kevin

David Weaver
07-28-2013, 3:52 PM
I've never gotten a hold of the new ones, but they're from the same place as the pike branded stones as far as I know, and I've never heard of a shortage of material, so I'd be surprised if there was much difference between the new ones and the old ones. Never heard a single bad comment about the ones TFWW sold, either.

Chris Griggs
07-28-2013, 6:42 PM
i stupidly sold a no.1 stone that I had.


Well now your just starting to make me feel guilty. Not so guilty that I'd sell it back, but guilty none-the-less...:)

Harold Burrell
07-28-2013, 6:55 PM
Well now your just starting to make me feel guilty. Not so guilty that I'd sell it back, but guilty none-the-less...:)

You could always sell it back to him at a HUGE profit. Then you might still feel guilty, but with $$$ in your pocket.

Hey...I'm just trying to help...

Chris Griggs
07-28-2013, 7:02 PM
You could always sell it back to him at a HUGE profit. Then you might still feel guilty, but with $$$ in your pocket.

Hey...I'm just trying to help...

That's not a bad idea. Yes, I'd feel even guiltier than I do now, but than again, I spent 9 years in Catholic school as kid so I probably won't notice a few extra drops of guilt in my vast internal ocean anyway.

Kevin Adams
07-28-2013, 8:24 PM
Thanks, David, I'd still love to find a nice NOS at some point to try out...dream on!

David Weaver
07-28-2013, 8:46 PM
I've never seen anything old stock except the frictionites I bought off of george. Actually, one of those was slightly used, but still.

At any rate, while I was watching the lilywhites, I saw them go from $60 to $255 on peebay. If you ever find one that is truly NOS, I hope you find it somewhere other than ebay, because it'll go to the moon there. The one that sold for $255 was not NOS, not really even close, it was just very clean. Mine was a hair under 90 bucks, but it's dirty.

Christian Castillo
07-28-2013, 8:51 PM
I have to agree with the lily white love, it's a damn shame they aren't mined anymore because it has become one of my favorite stones.