Diesel Engines

[Chris Padilla]

I did a search on the word "diesel" here in OT and read some interesting discussions.

I have two questions regarding diesel fuel and diesel engines.

(1) Is diesel fuel prevalent? I think it may not be as ubiquitous as gasoline but is it pretty much everywhere? I need to start paying attention to it at the gas stations I frequent. :)

(2) Are diesel engines any more maintenance than a gasoline engine? I mean this in terms of time and cost.

I can handle most of the mechanical work on my own vehicles (all gasoline) including most troubleshooting and repairs. Are diesels any different to deal with?

I'm seriously considering a diesel engine for our next car. I like the MPG gain plus it just sounds kinda cool to have something a bit different. I hear the torque is pretty amazing with a diesel engine. I have ZERO experience with diesel cars or engines. I'm not even sure I've ever ridden in a vehicle with a diesel engine.

[David Weaver]

The most common diesel around here, aside from the trucks (and you don't want the trucks unless you do a lot of heavy pulling, the cost will never pan out and they don't get great mileage any longer) was the VW jetta diesel. I contemplated getting one when I bought a jetta a long time ago, but decided against it because there were no diesel pumps at any of the stations I regularly pass (live in the burbs, no truck traffic). Anyway, I haven't seen any of those on the road in a LONG time because they were shredded by electrical issues.

If you see a new diesel car, see how it meets emissions requirements. If it does it by recirculating exhaust and using urea, i'm not sure I'd go that route just yet.

Mileage for a similar car should be 20-30% better than gas, but fuel here is about 10-15% more for diesel, so that closes the gap a little bit, and at least for the trucks, periodic maintenance costs a lot more (more oil, and synthetic oil because they're turbocharged, and the fuel filter is more critical, maybe a mechanic can tell us why, if the fuel is just more dirty or if it's over the top care to protect the injector pump).

[Brian Elfert]

Diesel is very readily available. Big trucks and farm tractors need diesel so even most small towns will have a diesel pump.

I would buy a diesel vehicle in a heartbeat if it was available in the type of vehicle I like to drive.

[Tony Joyce]

"at least for the trucks, periodic maintenance costs a lot more (more oil, and synthetic oil because they're turbocharged, and the fuel filter is more critical, maybe a mechanic can tell us why, if the fuel is just more dirty or if it's over the top care to protect the injector pump)"

Periodic maintenance cost are only slightly more because the filters are higher. I've had a DuraMax diesel(turbocharged) for the past 12 years, I use Shell Rotella oil not a synthetic! Fuel filters should be changed pretty regular because of picking up water in the fuel. This is not much of a problem if you buy for from a regular source that has a regular turnover of supply. In my area Most BP's, Shell's & Exxon's have diesel plus the plethora of independents. I've never had water in my fuel(knock on wood). This includes personal & company trucks plus my mom's car.

Water in a diesel could leave you stranded. Most(mine included) have indicators attached to the fuel filter that let you know of water contamination. Both of the Duramax's I've owned have been trouble free. Just fuel, filters, oil, & tires.

Tony

[Stephen Cherry]

Car, what car? Some of the cars that are available as diesels have had big reliability problems. One of my ex neighbors had one, and they were told by the dealer that 4000 dollars in repairs is "normal".

Even the diesel light trucks, I've heard reports about less than stellar durability.

Why not a prius, or something like that?

The rock solid mb 240d's have pretty much rusted away, and I really don't know what the modern equivalent would be.

[Chris Padilla]

I'm considering a BMW 535d (3L) over the 535i (3.5L)...2014.

[Mike Henderson]

Small diesel cars are very common in Europe. My guess is that maintenance there is about the same as a gasoline engine car.

Mike

[David Weaver]

No clue how california's emissions standards apply. It's hard to tell how current car emissions standards are met because VW/Audi/BMW/Mercedes details on their engines is full of marketing crap and pretty short on any technical information.

I know a truck mechanic who works for one of the big haulers and they are having a lot of trouble with newer engines that have been designed to pass emissions standards (engines that recirculate their own exhaust and that use urea or something of the sort to meet emissions standards).

Europe's emissions standards are far less strict than EPA standards.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm considering a BMW 535d (3L) over the 535i (3.5L)...2014.


I've got a 2003 bmw 540i with the manual transmission, 145k, and can tell you that I would not do it again. Yes the performance is superior to most sedans, but I could have bought 3 camrys for what tha car cost, and the camry takes much less in repairs. The BMW is not horrible in terms of maintenance, but it has been towed at least 3 times. I have been able to do almost all of the fixes myself.

The new cars have turbochargers, and I do like them from a technical standpoint. BUT, if you look at used turboed cars on the internet, you will see lots of them boasting of new engines. This tells me that the engines can and do fail. Maybe bmw has the heat management worked out, but maybe not.

how about a lexus is, if you want something zippy? You could get a IS and a prius for about the same dinero.

One more thing, the depriciation on the bmw's is horrible. My theory is that the repairs out of the free maintenance period would be crippling if you cant do them yourself.

[Jeff Monson]

The rock solid mb 240d's have pretty much rusted away, and I really don't know what the modern equivalent would be.

That was a good diesel car for sure, I'm pretty fond of the 300d's also. We still work on a few 300d's, don't hardly ever see a 240 though.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm late to the party, and brought a wet blanket...

I have a shorter than average commute (30 minutes, each way).
I was advised that the efficiency advantage offered by the diesel engine
kicked in when it was warm - after ten to twenty minutes of steady driving.

In cold weather, that period could be longer.

It didn't make sense to buy a more expensive, smaller vehicle
that didn't deliver actual fuel savings.

I bought a 2007 Passat wagon with the "VR6".
I shaved 1000 pounds off my curb weight
with more horsepower - same fuel consumption
with higher performance.

[Chris Parks]

I guess that we are talking about the new common rail diesel motors that have emerged out of Europe in recent years.

The costs to run one are slightly higher due to the special oil required. Most of them use what is called a diesel particulate filter in the exhaust and if the wrong oil is used it WILL cost you thousands. On the other side of the coin I went from a V8 to my current car with a 2 litre common rail diesel with a six speed auto and it is in every way a better car. I have had no issues at all and we tow a 1500lb trailer long distances and the diesel is better in every way. If I was using it for short commuter work I might have second thoughts as the motor and exhaust need to get up to temperature for the DPF not to become loaded with soot. The DPF is the issue with these types of cars and the Europeans went that way instead of Urea where Mazda in one model at least used Urea. I can say that I will never buy another gasoline car if I have the option. BTW it is my understanding that the Europeans are way ahead of the rest of the world with emission standards particularly in trucks. The new motors coming out of Europe are astounding with low emissions and excellent fuel economy.

[Chris Padilla]

I've got a 2003 bmw 540i with the manual transmission, 145k, and can tell you that I would not do it again. Yes the performance is superior to most sedans, but I could have bought 3 camrys for what tha car cost, and the camry takes much less in repairs. The BMW is not horrible in terms of maintenance, but it has been towed at least 3 times. I have been able to do almost all of the fixes myself.

The new cars have turbochargers, and I do like them from a technical standpoint. BUT, if you look at used turboed cars on the internet, you will see lots of them boasting of new engines. This tells me that the engines can and do fail. Maybe bmw has the heat management worked out, but maybe not.

how about a lexus is, if you want something zippy? You could get a IS and a prius for about the same dinero.

One more thing, the depriciation on the bmw's is horrible. My theory is that the repairs out of the free maintenance period would be crippling if you cant do them yourself.

I picked up a 2001 530i new...has 117k on it right now. I do most of the work on it myself but I'm really itching just to get a new BMW because, well, I like 'em. The 530i has been a great car. :) I also leased a 2005 545i a few years ago and that car was a lot of fun, too. We're planning to do an ED (European Delivery) on the BMW. This program allows one to pick up their car in Munich and drive it around Europe for a little while before dropping it off...then they ship it here to your dealer. ED is a TON of fun...nothing like a new BMW cruising along the smooth autobahn. :) :)

[Chris Padilla]

I guess that we are talking about the new common rail diesel motors that have emerged out of Europe in recent years.

The costs to run one are slightly higher due to the special oil required. Most of them use what is called a diesel particulate filter in the exhaust and if the wrong oil is used it WILL cost you thousands. On the other side of the coin I went from a V8 to my current car with a 2 litre common rail diesel with a six speed auto and it is in every way a better car. I have had no issues at all and we tow a 1500lb trailer long distances and the diesel is better in every way. If I was using it for short commuter work I might have second thoughts as the motor and exhaust need to get up to temperature for the DPF not to become loaded with soot. The DPF is the issue with these types of cars and the Europeans went that way instead of Urea where Mazda in one model at least used Urea. I can say that I will never buy another gasoline car if I have the option. BTW it is my understanding that the Europeans are way ahead of the rest of the world with emission standards particularly in trucks. The new motors coming out of Europe are astounding with low emissions and excellent fuel economy.

Estimates are that the d requires a 1.3k premium over the i so economically, it may not make sense. I'm still digging and calculating around. I just don't know squat about diesels.

[Rick Potter]

May I suggest you check the current (Aug. 13) issue of Motor Trend magazine. It has a long term, 25,000 mile test on the VW Passat diesel vs 4 cyl. gas. It looks like it may answer some of your questions.

Rick Potter

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm really itching just to get a new BMW because, well, I like 'em.

Well, there's all the justification you need.

[Chris Padilla]

Yes...but a diesel or not??????????? :)

[Stephen Cherry]

Yes...but a diesel or not??????????? :)

I've heard that the diesel pulls like there is no tomorrow. Why not test them both out and see which one you like the best.

[Shawn Pixley]

I've had three diesel cars. The first was a '74 Peugeot 504 wagon (no turbo). It got 340,000 miles on the original engine with essentially oil changes and standard maintenance. I was killed by bad fuel in Sprague Washington in 1987. We now have two diesel. LOML has a Jetta Wagon TDI - single turbo. Very nice. I have a BMW 335d - twin turbo. The technology of diesels in Europe is far above others. When I have rented a car in Europe it is almost always a diesel. They run much smoother than the older technologies. The accelleration is better and is less damaging environmentally. The low sulpher fuel doesn't smell like the older version. So far, no repairs and maintenance was included in the purchase.

My wife averages 36-37 mpg. I average ~34 though I have gotten 42 on an open highway. No my car wouldn't out perform my S2000 that I traded in, but is doesn't lack in performance. My car has 265 BHP and 490 ft-lbs of torque. Diesel here costs somewhere between the price of 87 to 89 octane.

My only real wish is that BMW would import the 135d GT (hatchback). I like small cars, even though I am tall. That is a truly excellent vehicle.

[Chris Parks]

I've heard that the diesel pulls like there is no tomorrow. Why not test them both out and see which one you like the best.

The new common rails have awesome performance for their size. One thing though is that working on them presents real personal injury risk as the fuel rail pressures are about 15,000 PSI.

[Jim Matthews]

INo my car wouldn't out perform my S2000 that I traded in, but is doesn't lack in performance.

As the second Iron Man movie has shown, convertibles are very handy for hauling large objects...
I don't suppose you carried rough lumber for your projects in the Honda?

[David Weaver]

1.3k is a very favorable figure compared to the premium you pay for the diesel option in a truck.

[Steve Meliza]

1) Around here about half of the gas stations carry diesel, but only a few are reliably cheaper so I frequent them on my monthly fill up. Cost is currently $3.90 which is the same price as regular unleaded, but not that long ago it was the same price as premium.
2) I can only speak to the costs of maintaining and repairing gas vs. diesel on a full sized picked. The diesel was far more expensive to maintain as the fluid capacities are enormous and the pair of fuel filters are something like $100 each. Neither needed any significant engine repairs, but the EGR valve on the diesel was $300 just for the part.

Diesel does provide a fuel savings even in the winter. My daily commute is 12 miles each way with about 80% of that on very busy highways. The truck averages about 14MPG on that drive in the winter and 15MPG in the summer. Using the block heater on cold mornings helps a bit with fuel economy. My sedan that is rated 20MPG city and 30MPG highway gets me about 23MPG on that same drive. I'd gladly but a diesel commuter car if we had more to choose from.

[Matt Meiser]

I have a diesel compact tractor and don't have trouble getting fuel in any direction I'm headed. Not every station has it but at least half if not more do. Haven't been paying attention to price lately as my switch to a zero turn for mowing and the lack of snow the last two winters has drastically reduced my diesel consumption. Here, the local station where the farmers go has a separate diesel area with several pumps. That area tends to be a greasy mess from spilled fuel. The also carried Biodiesel for a long time which I ran in the tractor at the recommendation of the JD dealer. Sometimes I'd get a good whiff of "french fry" from the exhaust. When the subsidies went away so did the Biodiesel but I noticed last time it was back.

Not sure if this is true of a diesel car/truck but I hate changing the oil in my diesel tractor as the sooty stuff it the oil makes a mess and is a pain to clean up. I've taken to wearing gloves as getting it off my skin is the worst. I can't get it off concrete even with a several day soak in soap and pressure washing. Luckily my hours are low enough that a once-a-year oil change is way under JD's recommendations.

[David Weaver]

1) Around here about half of the gas stations carry diesel, but only a few are reliably cheaper so I frequent them on my monthly fill up. Cost is currently $3.90 which is the same price as regular unleaded, but not that long ago it was the same price as premium.
2) I can only speak to the costs of maintaining and repairing gas vs. diesel on a full sized picked. The diesel was far more expensive to maintain as the fluid capacities are enormous and the pair of fuel filters are something like $100 each. Neither needed any significant engine repairs, but the EGR valve on the diesel was $300 just for the part.

Diesel does provide a fuel savings even in the winter. My daily commute is 12 miles each way with about 80% of that on very busy highways. The truck averages about 14MPG on that drive in the winter and 15MPG in the summer. Using the block heater on cold mornings helps a bit with fuel economy. My sedan that is rated 20MPG city and 30MPG highway gets me about 23MPG on that same drive. I'd gladly but a diesel commuter car if we had more to choose from.

I wish they would bring back the old dodge cummins sized pickup from the early 1990s. Not specifically dodge, but everyone. I just looked up the F250 and the curb weight is about 7000 pounds with the diesel in it. The old cummins only had half the power of the new diesel engines, but you could get 25 miles per gallon on the highway with them. I recognize the old 12 valve cummins wouldn't pass emissions these days, but maybe something equivalent to those pickup sizes would be good. I guess the lure of charging $40-$50k for a 7000 pound pickup is too great and none of the manufacturers are going to spend the money to spec and design two emissions compliant diesel trucks.

When I was younger, I fancied having a diesel pickup as our second vehicle, but the direction they have gone has just killed that. And now (after not getting a diesel car a decade and a half ago because of diesel availability), there is a station with diesel a half mile from my house. It is a bit more costly here (road diesel) than gas, though, still can't figure out why.

[Brian Elfert]

There are a number of reasons pickups with diesel engines don't get 25 MPG anymore. Diesel engines have more HP and torque today. The new emissions standards mean less MPG, but the 2010 and later engines seem to be better at MPG. Pickups are also larger with most being crew cabs. Dodge never had a crew cab back when they had the Cummins originally.

[Stephen Cherry]

There are a number of reasons pickups with diesel engines don't get 25 MPG anymore. Diesel engines have more HP and torque today. The new emissions standards mean less MPG, but the 2010 and later engines seem to be better at MPG. Pickups are also larger with most being crew cabs. Dodge never had a crew cab back when they had the Cummins originally.

All the manufacturers sell good mpg pickups, they just don't sell them in the US. Probably because they have tried it in the past, but nobody bought them.
http://www.toyota.com.au/hilux/specifications/sr-4x2-xtra-cab-pickup-turbo-diesel-manual

[Jerome Stanek]

There are a number of reasons pickups with diesel engines don't get 25 MPG anymore. Diesel engines have more HP and torque today. The new emissions standards mean less MPG, but the 2010 and later engines seem to be better at MPG. Pickups are also larger with most being crew cabs. Dodge never had a crew cab back when they had the Cummins originally.

Most of the of the crew cabs I see are no bigger than the full size pick up they just have a shorter bed My V10 f350 crewcab single wheel was 6800 Lbs.

[David Weaver]

I don't think anyone is willing to make a small diesel engine right now that meets emissions standards. There's really no reason that VW's 2.0 liter diesel (or whatever it is now) couldn't drive a small pickup, given they have spent the money on developing something that can be sold in the US, except that it would make no business sense for them to provide it to the makers of small pickups, they couldn't market a pickup, and they would probably want the world for it in terms of price.

But a hilux would be great, even if they'd have to use another make of diesel engine to meet emissions standards.

[Chris Padilla]

The new common rails have awesome performance for their size. One thing though is that working on them presents real personal injury risk as the fuel rail pressures are about 15,000 PSI.

I was reading that the fuel rail pressure were slightly less than double what you posted there. :eek:


1.3k is a very favorable figure compared to the premium you pay for the diesel option in a truck.

BMW had an "Eco Credit" of 3.5k on the d last year but it is no longer available. However, my dealer feels strongly that that will bring it back as sales are likely to be sluggish without it. I have ~9 months before I need to order the car so lots can change. This puts the i at a 2k premium over the d and would really wet my appetite. :D


Not sure if this is true of a diesel car/truck but I hate changing the oil in my diesel tractor as the sooty stuff it the oil makes a mess and is a pain to clean up. I've taken to wearing gloves as getting it off my skin is the worst. I can't get it off concrete even with a several day soak in soap and pressure washing. Luckily my hours are low enough that a once-a-year oil change is way under JD's recommendations.

This is the kind of stuff I want to hear about the diesel: oil changes and filters. I guess they use more oil and I guess the oil is pricier? I use an oil extractor to suck out the oil through the dipstick tube in my vehicles and I love it. I assume I can still do it this way but I dunno. Sounds like fuel filters are pricey as well and need changed fairly often? I changed the fuel filter on my 530i at 100k and it was $60.

[David Weaver]

Pickups are also larger with most being crew cabs. Dodge never had a crew cab back when they had the Cummins originally.

Even the trucks that aren't crew cab have gained a ton of weight. The F250 has gained almost a ton of weight since 1990 and a basic stripped down 4x2 standard cab has gained 1000 pounds (based on the dodge listed curb weight). That kind of stuff is especially punitive here in the hills where you have to haul that weight up hills after you're stopped at a stoplight, or just up hills in general.

I'll bet they could make a 4500 pound pickup these days with 200 horsepower (diesel) that would get close to 25 miles per gallon if they wanted to, even with the emissions standards.

[Mac McQuinn]

VW is already doing this, It called a Amorok and you can get the 2.0 L Diesel, I saw one recently in Michigan w/ Man. Plates. Perhaps they're looking at our market. Pretty nice looking vehicle. Hope they bring it here, even w/ Petro engine, My choice.
Mac



I don't think anyone is willing to make a small diesel engine right now that meets emissions standards. There's really no reason that VW's 2.0 liter diesel (or whatever it is now) couldn't drive a small pickup, given they have spent the money on developing something that can be sold in the US, except that it would make no business sense for them to provide it to the makers of small pickups, they couldn't market a pickup, and they would probably want the world for it in terms of price.

But a hilux would be great, even if they'd have to use another make of diesel engine to meet emissions standards.

[David Weaver]

Having had (still having one) two mexico origin volkswagens, I hope they market a german built version of that over here if it does become available here.

[Brian Elfert]

Today's pickups can haul and tow a lot more so I expect the frames, brakes, and such are a lot beefier. New pickups also have air bags and other safety features not present 20 years ago.

Pickups are still selling like hot cakes even with poor mileage so not a lot of incentive to build a higher MPG version. There is talk that at least one manufacturer is going to put a small diesel in a half ton pickup as a 2014 or 2105 model.

[David Weaver]

Yes, they're definitely more capable in terms of payload and towing. Some part of the market has definitely made the push for that, and it's my opinion that the high crop prices have allowed farms to make decisions that are less money smart (when our farm was still active, bare bones single axle trucks registered to haul ten tons or so were used to do heavy work too small for a semi, but those trucks have been to some extent replaced by pickups pulling loads above their ratings). Our farm ran the same single axle truck for 30 years to do firewood, dirt, gravel, etc work. The truck itself had half the power the new pickups do.

I see a fair number of those trucks in the city without a scratch on them anywhere, though, and that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Most of the contractor crew cabs that I see are sort of stripped down fleet trucks and they're all gas.

[Mac McQuinn]

Argentina and Germany are current production facilities for these, they're considered medium size trucks, available in RWD or AWD. Regular and Double Cab. Hopefully the one I saw is a positive sign they might make it here.
Mac



Having had (still having one) two mexico origin volkswagens, I hope they market a german built version of that over here if it does become available here.

[Pat Barry]

I'll be the contrarian and just say that hope I will never, ever, end up with a diesel engine. I don't care if the gas mileage is better or the new rail is oh so impressive, its still a diesel and they belong on 18 wheelers and that's it as far as I'm concerned. Now you can all drink the diesel kool aid together and I don't care. Just keep them noisy dirty foul smelling things away from me. Did I cover enough of the stereotypical misconceptions?

[Steve Meliza]

Did I cover enough of the stereotypical misconceptions? Yes, and your ignorance of the modern GM diesel engine.

[Pat Barry]

Not just me, everyone is ignorant of that thing and also, I found a rave review for the new GM diesel. Here's an excerpt from that review that sums up my feelings almost exactly "Inside, it takes a while to get used to the diesel engine chattering away under the hood of such a small vehicle." Referring to the new diesel Cruze (which I would never buy thank you.)

[David Weaver]

I'll be the contrarian and just say that hope I will never, ever, end up with a diesel engine. I don't care if the gas mileage is better or the new rail is oh so impressive, its still a diesel and they belong on 18 wheelers and that's it as far as I'm concerned. Now you can all drink the diesel kool aid together and I don't care. Just keep them noisy dirty foul smelling things away from me. Did I cover enough of the stereotypical misconceptions?

Somewhere, there's a converted '50s pickup with an old screaming jimmy just for you, Pat :) Though it has all of the stereotypes you're lampooning...i kind of like it, anyway. It's a good truck for any driver who ever has trouble with drowsiness behind the wheel. If having to flip around those two sticks doesn't keep you awake, the ear splitting noise surely will!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2zwd1iazvU

[Keith Outten]

I have a Sprinter cargo van that doesn't sound like a diesel and it doesn't produce any foul oder either. Lots of power coming from a small 6 banger tubo-diesel that gets 24 to 26 miles per gallon of fuel. At 9 feet tall I think the milage is pretty impressive. Empty weight is 5,165 pounds and the max payload is 3,453 pounds and it pulls my one ton trailer like a dream.

I don't think that I will ever consider a gas powered work vehicle again.
.

[Stephen Cherry]

Somewhere, there's a converted '50s pickup with an old screaming jimmy just for you, Pat :) Though it has all of the stereotypes you're lampooning...i kind of like it, anyway. It's a good truck for any driver who ever has trouble with drowsiness behind the wheel. If having to flip around those two sticks doesn't keep you awake, the ear splitting noise surely will!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2zwd1iazvU

Now that would be an anti theft deterrent! Looks like there are plenty of other switches and doo dads also to play with. I give that truck a two thumbs up. :)

[David Weaver]

I have a Sprinter cargo van that doesn't sound like a diesel and it doesn't produce any foul oder either. Lots of power coming from a small 6 banger tubo-diesel that gets 24 to 26 miles per gallon of fuel. At 9 feet tall I think the milage is pretty impressive. Empty weight is 5,165 pounds and the max payload is 3,453 pounds and it pulls my one ton trailer like a dream.

I don't think that I will ever consider a gas powered work vehicle again.
.

Keith, those sprinters are mega popular around here, too.

[Brian Elfert]

The diesel Cruze is just way too expensive. It costs nearly 1/3 more than the gasoline version with similar options. I really want an affordable Mini-Van or van with a diesel engine. The Sprinter with diesel is not even close to affordable for someone who isn't making a living with it.

I've seen a lot of companies replacing older Sprinters with the new Nissan commercial vans. There is also a gasoline version of the Sprinter. The diesel Sprinter is a good vehicle. It is just expensive.

[Chris Padilla]

BMW may also offer a 3.5k "eco credit" on their diesel. They had one last year and currently, they are not offering it but my dealer feels pretty strongly that they will reinstate it as sales of the d are likely to be sluggish without it. I will go drive one for sure as I have plenty of time before I order. We'll see how noisy, smokey it is. :)

[Stephen Cherry]

BMW may also offer a 3.5k "eco credit" on their diesel. They had one last year and currently, they are not offering it but my dealer feels pretty strongly that they will reinstate it as sales of the d are likely to be sluggish without it. I will go drive one for sure as I have plenty of time before I order. We'll see how noisy, smokey it is. :)

The more I think about it, the more I would say diesel with automatic, and gas with a manual. It seems like the gas would be superior if you want to wind it out, and diesel if you want to shift early.

[Chris Padilla]

My 530i is a 5-speed and I can tell you that I'm really OVER needing to clutch and shift. All future vehicles shall employ a slushbox. :) Once upon a time, manuals were best for gas mileage and that just isn't true nowadays. Besides that, the new 5-series BMWs are almost all automatics...getting a manual is quite limited now.

[Mac McQuinn]

Brian,
This same concern came up on another forum and for a apples to apples comparison, the Cruze 2LT Automatic is the closest to the Diesel Cruze. After it's all said and done the Diesel is $2790.00 richer to own. Depending on your local diesel fuel cost, the $2790 + the additional cost of the required fuel additive, it's tough to say if you really gain anything, at least over a 3-4 year span. I personally would save a bunch and op out for the Cruze ECO w/ manual trans. Gas mileage is around 42 H/W, no leather to sweat over (Pun Intended) and the minimalist in me loves the less is more concept.

BTW, I believe the Cruze Diesel engine is a joint effort between Fiat and GM or someone else, I understand it's a bit loud compared to a VW TDI.

Mac




The diesel Cruze is just way too expensive. It costs nearly 1/3 more than the gasoline version with similar options.

[Brian Elfert]

Some say the diesel Cruze is closer to the LS trim so the cost difference is closer to $6,000. I haven't seen the specs so I have no idea who is right. I won't be buying one since I really need a larger vehicle.

[Jim Matthews]

Whazzat, hi-lo on EVERY gear?

I like the pause at :43 where the driver has a moment of indecision...
"Was it I before E, except after passing a school zone?"

I've been driving automatics since marrying my wife, I think if I got into a manual trans I would immediately back through the garage into my shed.

[Chris Padilla]

Whazzat, hi-lo on EVERY gear?

I like the pause at :43 where the driver has a moment of indecision...
"Was it I before E, except after passing a school zone?"

I've been driving automatics since marrying my wife, I think if I got into a manual trans I would immediately back through the garage into my shed.

I taught my wife on manuals since that is all I had while we were dating (a good old won't die 1990 Toyota Pick up) and that continued with the 530i we got. I replaced '90 Pick up with a 2006 Tacoma...automatic. Now that is the vehicle we both drive the most! LOL :D So the future BMW will be automatic and we are both looking forward to it.

[Stephen Cherry]

I personally would save a bunch and op out for the Cruze ECO w/ manual trans. Gas mileage is around 42 H/W, no leather to sweat over (Pun Intended) and the minimalist in me loves the less is more concept.



I would opt out of the whole chevy thing all together. Oe thing to remember is that depreciation is about the biggest factor in the cost of ownership. Prius, camry, corolla, accord, civic, etc. can all be had for reasonable prices, and the depreciation is pretty low.

[Steve Meliza]

High depreciation is my friend. I get to buy a car only a few years old for the same price as something more popular that is 7 years older.

[Keith Outten]

When we went shopping for a new vehicle in 2011 for our sign shop we found the Sprinter to be less expensive than pickup trucks. The price tag was 38k with the extended five year warranty and we couldn't get anywhere near that price when we looked at Chevy or Ford trucks.

Although our van is basically an empty box in the cargo area it has all the creature comforts we wanted up front. Automatic, PS, PB, cruise control, air, electric windows and locks, CD/DVD stereo with built-in GPS, backup camera, etc. It has all the good stuff on the dirty side like 4 wheel disc anti-lock brakes, trailer towing package, an anti-rollover feature, etc. With eleven feet of bed space between the back of the seats to the rear doors and an extra 18 inches between the seats it can handle some pretty long stuff. What I like the most is standing up in the cargo area with plenty of room above my head, never having to bend over or crawl into the back of a pickup truck with a camper shell to get signs out of the back. Both the rear and side doors are wide enough to load full size pallets and there is 51 inches between the wheel wells.

Jackie and I have made one round trip from Virginia to Atlanta and two trips to Columbia South Carolina in addition to short trips in state and around town so the Sprinter is comfortable on long rides. For a work vehicle I have to say it fits our needs perfectly. Moving furniture is a snap, we were able to move our youngest daughter home from college with plenty of room to spare. Full size refrigerators standing up is sweet and I can drive my golf cart inside when the need arises. Never a concern about anything getting wet when we run to the Borg for materials and when its raining we can hop in and out the side door with an open umbrella :)

When I roll onto a job site the Sprinter gets lots of looks and makes a good impression. Its also a moving billboard with lots of space for advertising. At nine feet tall I don't have a problem finding my van in a parking lot at the end of the day.

The diesel is the heart and soul of the Sprinter IMO. Lots of power, easy on fuel and more getup and go than my last pickup truck.
.

[ray hampton]

at 9 foot tall, the day may come that a couple of semi's park between your truck and the store, when you drive the truck to your local store do you park the in farther space away from the store ?

[Chris Padilla]

Keith,

That's very interesting about the Sprint. I had never heard of it until you posted about it in here.

[Alan Bienlein]

The owner of the company I work for just bought one of those sprinter vans. Has a dodge emblem with a Mercedes diesel engine.

[Alan Bienlein]

Personally I prefer this. One day I just might yank out the 383 in mine and replace it with a 4-53T.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0o1o5W_f6o

[Edward Clarke]

I have a 2003 Volkswagen Golf TDI hatchback. With runs of a couple of miles to the store and thirty mile trips twice a week I get 43 miles per gallon of diesel fuel. I carried home two pieces of 16/4 ash - 13 inches wide and 12 inches wide by eight feet long in one trip from the lumber yard.

The current CR (common rail) engines are vastly better and a number of people are going 900 miles on a tank (54 mpg). You can get more info on VW diesels at http://tdiclub.com .

[Shawn Pixley]

As the second Iron Man movie has shown, convertibles are very handy for hauling large objects...
I don't suppose you carried rough lumber for your projects in the Honda?

Well it wasn't "much" lumber but there were a few times wood was carried with the top down. Fishing rods also were carried with the top down. Occasionally the fish bag as well.

[Keith Outten]

The owner of the company I work for just bought one of those sprinter vans. Has a dodge emblem with a Mercedes diesel engine.

Alan,

Mercedes licensed Dodge and Freightliner to sell the Sprinter vans at one time. Today they are only sold under the Mercedes name here in the US. In my area the Sprinter has become very popular for transportation, they are everywhere on the roads now. There is a Sprinter Van forum with lots of information, some say the diesel should last between 700,000 to one million miles. Although I expect this is true I would guess the transmission would have to be rebuilt a couple times :)

The Sprinters are what you would expect from Mercedes Benz, if you take care of it you might never need to buy another work vehicle. I am very happy with mine with one exception, in a high wind situation it can be a bit scary crossing a bridge, etc. In the two years we have had our Sprinter there have been a couple times that I had to go very slow crossing the Coleman bridge when the cross winds were at 45 mph or higher. If you live in the snow country and have the right tires on the Sprinter it will perform well. When the weather is really bad here I prefer to drive the Sprinter, it feels safer to drive than any of our cars in bad storms and hard rain.
.

[Matt Meiser]

When they first came out Daimler (Mercedes parent) OWNED Dodge and still owns Freightliner.

[Jerome Stanek]

What I don't like about vans is the inside noise. I used to work for a drug chain installing new stores and they supplied a van. With all the tools in the back you had to blanket wrap everything so it wouldn't rattle and on long trips it can be very annoying when it starts to rattle and you have to go back and try and find out what is rattling. 400 to 500 miles of rattling will dive you crazy.

[Stephen Cherry]

One thing about the sprinters, and hopefully this is only the older ones, but I have seen a lot of them with rust, particularly around the doors. Hopefully they have solved this problem though because they look like great vans.

[David Weaver]

Personally I prefer this. One day I just might yank out the 383 in mine and replace it with a 4-53T.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0o1o5W_f6o

Big big fan of the 4-53 - sounds like an old cement mixer.

The other two stick truck I posted probably had a 4-53 or 6-53 also. They are the most noise on the least fuel, but I'm sure those trucks are a bit of a dog compared to the way they run with a 300 horsepower gas engine.

The upside of it, though, is that you can run them wide open with the detroit in them and that's the way they're supposed to be run. "Drive it like you stole it" or "drive it like you hate it" or "drive it like you're trying to break it" were the kinds of things folks from home said about the old trucks at home with DDs, but I've never actually seen one in a pickup in person. Youtube lets us see lots of cool things!!

[Matt Meiser]

One thing about the sprinters, and hopefully this is only the older ones, but I have seen a lot of them with rust, particularly around the doors. Hopefully they have solved this problem though because they look like great vans.

I've seen that too. Rather shocking you really don't see cars rusting out that fast anymore. Then again they probably expect their target market to wear them out mechanically before they see enough winters to rust.

[David Weaver]

The older ones here all have rust around the edges, too.

I would imagine that if there are any in upstate NY, they look a lot worse, though.

[Keith Outten]

It's my understanding that the rust problem with vans normally comes from the inside because people insulate improperly. Most these days are going with the spray on foam which is supposed to seal the inside surface and keep it from sweating. I decided not to insulate mine at least not in the near term because the weather in Virginia is pretty moderate but if I was up North it would be a necessity IMO.

Jerome, I understand the noise issue. A rattle would drive me crazy as well but I don't have that problem because of the things I haul I guess. All of my install tools are in pockets in tool bags and my signs are generally in custom plywood boxes either on the floor or secured to pallets. For odd shaped stuff I use ratchet straps to secure it to the D Rings in the floor. Plumbers, Carpenters and HVAC guys would have a whole different setup than I do.

[Chris Padilla]

How about some pics of your van, Keith? I'd like to see it.

[Jason Roehl]

I have a work van ('03 Ford E250) full of tools and busy-ness. Generally, I don't have to drive more than 20-25 minutes locally, and that's a good thing. Any longer, and there would be a good chance I'd snap. :D I do have a safety divider behind the front seats (rear is cargo only) that is sheet metal with a plexi window, which helps, but it's only a mild attenuation of the rattling. Hitting a bad pothole sounds like a car crash.

I would love to have a diesel Sprinter (not necessarily the high-topper, as I would need to haul ladders on top), but it's not in the budget.

[David Weaver]

Hitting a bad pothole sounds like a car crash.



Worked for a tile contractor in a former life who liked his van like that. It was like a rolling metal maraca. He always said "go take the van and ____, but don't drive it too fast" (___ could be get gas, go to the warehouse and get portland cement, etc).

Rolled real nice on smooth road given how much of the guy's lifetime assemblage of crap was in it to weigh it down, though!

[Keith Outten]

How about some pics of your van, Keith? I'd like to see it.

Chris, I will take a few pictures later today. There are a few pics of the exterior on my web site, one on the main banner and a couple in my Portfolio.

Jason, they have a really nice ladder rack for the high top Sprinter vans that lowers your ladder while you stand on the ground. The guy who came out to work on my network cable had one on a brand new Sprinter. He also had the best LED lighting system inside his van that I have ever seen, parked his Sprinter right next to the job and opened up all the doors and the area lit up like a ball park. It was midnight and there are no streetlights where I live. You can also carry a pretty long ladder inside strapped along the wall or to the overhead.
.

[Keith Outten]

As you can see I have some sheet rock in my van and my temporary plastic trunk we use to store various items so we don't have to tie them down. The plastic trunk is actually one of the yard or garden tool storage boxes I picked up at Ollie's real cheap. Its very lightweight and easy to place in the van when I need it and it can be stored in the yard, we use it mostly when we travel to store luggage, computers, etc.

I have no need for storage racks or bins so my van is open all the time the way you see it in these pictures . I never know what size signs I am going to be installing although 95% of the time they are small door signs that I place in custom plywood boxes about 20 signs in each box. Large signs are transported as required, some are laid flat on the floor and some are strapped to the walls, it depends on the situation. I have a couple short ladders I take with me on some jobs, the tall one is a six foot step ladder.......I rarely get any higher off the ground :)

I am about to order three of the heavy duty plastic pallets that I intend to fasten my plywood sign boxes to so I can place the pallets in the shop to load them up and them set them in the van with my pallet forks. If I build sign racks on top of each pallet I won't need as many plywood boxes, just four to transport the signs from the van to my install cart.

I am considering building a removable shelf that would be installed half way up the walls that could handle large signs and glass panels. There just has to be enough room above the shelf for my hammock, some days when the weather is nice it pays to take a long break after lunch :)
.

[Chris Padilla]

Very nice van, Keith! Being able to lay sheet stock flat is fantastic. It does look like the perfect vehicle for you.

I'm still kicking around the diesel idea for our next car but I have many months before I need to decide.

[Chris Parks]

Sprinters are a tough vehicle, I have 20 drivers at work whose sole mission in life is to break our sprinters as often as possible and we have very few problems. The Ford Transits we had prior to the Mercs were always off road with problems.

[Keith Outten]

A diesel engine in a car is a different animal than a work vehicle. I have never owned one but today there are options that have not been available in the past like quiet diesel engines that don't produce any oder at all. The BlueTec technology that Mercedes has on their cars and trucks is the best I know of but there are probably others. I understand some may not be fans of BlueTec but I am sold on it since we purchased the Sprinter, probably because I hate diesel fumes and the terrible pollution from the exhaust smoke.

Before I die I would like to be able to purchase a hydrogen car and make my own fuel. I know that this will never happen unless the people of this country rise up and demand it or go rogue and install it illegally. I have been following the HHO kits on YouTube for a long time, its a start.
.

[ray hampton]

A

Before I die I would like to be able to purchase a hydrogen car and make my own fuel. I know that this will never happen unless the people of this country rise up and demand it or go rogue and install it illegally. I have been following the HHO kits on YouTube for a long time, its a start.
.

IF you do manage to buy a hydrogen fuel car I hope that you use water from the state of Kentucky because KY got better water

[Brian Elfert]

The primary reason diesel engines don't stink anymore is because of EPA regulation changes. Diesel exhaust pipes used to be black inside from all the soot. New diesels are so clean the exhaust pipes don't get dirty anymore.

Isn't the primary issue with hydrogen cars the high amount of energy required to produce the hydrogen?

[ray hampton]

The primary reason diesel engines don't stink anymore is because of EPA regulation changes. Diesel exhaust pipes used to be black inside from all the soot. New diesels are so clean the exhaust pipes don't get dirty anymore.

Isn't the primary issue with hydrogen cars the high amount of energy required to produce the hydrogen?

we do not need to produce hydrogen, it is in the water already, but it take energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, if we use ocean water for its hydrogen and oxygen , we get the salt at NO cost to us

[Jim Stewart]

No sure what happened I was ready to reply to a P.6 comment and now P.3 is as far as it goes. I will reply anyway. Brian Eifert commented the stop for Hydrogen is the cost of production. I think that is, true but there are ways. Wind farm, Solar, Geothermal, Nuclear, and Ocean energy (Waves) are all good potential sources for electrolysis. Plants could be set up that make Hydrogen in the non-peak hours of electricity need. I suppose the infrastructure is an issue also but that is likely doable if the Hydrogen was available. We are not supposed to make political comments here but this country needs to somehow embrace the future and not short term economics as the top priority. We keep embracing Oil while the end result may be economic disaster. Kieth you may edit this if needed.

[Keith Outten]

Extracting hydrogen from water can be done with twelve volts from an alternator. The HHO kits that I have seen videos of on YouTube are pretty simple kits that use a small bottle of water, a small plastic module that provides the hydrogen separation and a couple of tubes. This is a hydrogen assist type system at this point but I expect it will be modified and improved. A hydrogen generator can be made and operated in your back yard powered by a small solar panel. The Japanese have a model home that is completely powered by a generator about the size of a exterior heat pump and it produces enough hydrogen to power a car to go to work and back. This model has been operating for several years now.

A couple years ago Honda was running TV commercials for a new hydrogen car that came with a hydrogen generator. The commercials ran for just a couple days and then they stopped.

BTW the HHO kits will work on diesel engines as well as gas.

Jim, the issue of world wide national energy consumption and the health of our planet isn't political in my mind. Some may use the subject for political advantage but the truth is it is about making responsible choices based on what is best for people not governments or big business. I believe as soon as the people decide to make the decisions for themselves we will move forward. Its obvious that elected officials disagree with the people as to what is best. The problem as I see it is how can you collect road taxes when people make their own hydrogen fuel at home. This is also an economic situation not political as we all know we have to pay taxes so we will have roads for our vehicles.

Brian, the BlueTec system injects urea into the exhaust which converts/re-burns the exhaust gases and removes the bad oder. Seems to me we could retrofit existing diesels to this technology inexpensively and help clean up the air in the short term. BTW there is no pollution from burning hydrogen, nothing comes out of the exhaust pipe except water vapor.
.

[Brian Elfert]

You don't really produce hydrogen as Ray points out. You separate it from water. The biggest issue with hydrogen is the energy required to separate the hydrogen from water. Right now, we still produce a lot of our electricity from fossil fuels. Hydrogen doesn't really make sense if we have to burn fossil fuels to separate the hydrogen from water.

For now, I'll take a diesel powered vehicle since hydrogen isn't yet practical. A diesel hybrid might be the best of all for now. I wouldn't mind natural gas if there was any place to refuel.

Yes, almost all diesel engines since 2010 require urea. The Cummins 6.7 in the Dodge pickups is an exception.

[Aaron Berk]

Get a diesel, they are awesome and well worth it.
I'd skip out on the new diesels though, to much emissions junk bogging them down.

I drive a 97 Ford 7.3 Powerstroke diesel. It's a turbo and has a few mods.
I LOVE IT!!!!

And it runs on waste cooking oil, so I'm in it for about 50 cents per gallon of fuel :cool:

Oil changes are pricy because I use good oil (LOTS of it) and nice filters.
My truck uses the engine oil to fire the injectors so the oil is a BIG thing in the powerstrokes.

I have prior USMC service as a diesel and hydraulics mechanic, but it's all heavy industrial truck and tractor junk.
I'll never buy another gasser if I can help it.

Here is a link to my fun with converting my Diesel to run on Waste oil https://wasteveggieoilexplorations.shutterfly.com/

[Jim Becker]

There is a more serious movement in the US now for deeper adoption of diesel engines in passenger vehicles and the newer generators of those engines are getting pretty darn good. Chrysler's about to release a great 3.0L diesel engine in both the Jeep Grand Cherokee and the RAM trucks; Chevy recently introduced a diesel version of the Cruize and there are other examples of present and coming options. And, of course, the Euro manufacturers offer them.

MPG is generally very good, although that shouldn't be the only reason to buy a diesel engine...torque is much higher for the given horsepower and properly maintained, they run a long, long time. Maintenance is what it is and the car companies are making it easy to fill the urea tank (reduces emissions) by the consumer. More and more fueling stations offer diesel fuel. It's more expensive per gallon, but more efficient, too. The biggest downside right now is that diesel engines often command a hefty premium in the vehicle price...something that will hopefully mitigate as they become more popular here. Over in Europe...they are ubiquitous for both passenger and utility vehicles and it's the gas powered vehicles that often cost more.

Although my current MY12 Grand Cherokee has the Hemi V8 to accommodate my towing needs, the next one will have the 3.0L diesel. Same towing capability...and 30mpg on the highway instead of 20-21. (although I got 24 last week on a 1000 mile round trip down and back to Parkersburg WV)

[Chris Parks]

You will find that all European small diesels do not use Urea but rely on a diesel particulate filter (DPF) to control emissions. It has also been admitted by the manufacturers that emission control on diesel motors is so difficult that their future use is in some doubt unless new ways can be found. One of the manufacturers, I am not sure which one, has started to build or intends to build a hybrid using diesel/electric which if done right should be a stunning combination.

[Brian Elfert]

European and USA diesel pollution standards are not the same thus the differences in pollution control devices. The EPA has made diesel emissions standards much more strict in recent years. They are due to get even stricter in 2014, at least for heavy duty diesels. As Chris stated, some diesel engine manufacturers are wondering if they can even meet the 2014 regulations. Hopefully the EPA would back down if nobody can create a diesel engine that can meet the 2014 regulations.

A diesel engine produced in 2013 is dramatically cleaner than one produced even in 2006. I don't know why the EPA can't leave well enough alone. The pollution standards are driving truck owners to keep older trucks longer as the new engines are more expensive and can sometimes get lower mileage. For California truck owners, all commercial heavy trucks needs to have soot filters installed unless they are 2007 or newer already. By 2023 all commercial heavy trucks in California will need to be 2010 models or newer. For now, diesel pickups and diesel motorhomes are exempt.

[Jim Beachler]

I own and drive daily a Dodge Sprinter van. they are built with the Mercedes Diesel Turbo engines. Even though fuel is higher than gas, I still do much better than with a traditional van. My previous GMC van with a V8 got 15 mpg with a tail wind. These Sprinter van is taller, so more wind resistance, and I get 20.25 mpg. Currently have 240,000 miles on it and have had no major problems. Overall the maintenance is no worse than my gasoline van.

[Jim Stewart]

Diesels can burn very clean at a constant rpm such as a farm tractor. The way to use a diesel in an automobile would be as the power plant for a hybrid. In that application they would be much cleaner.

[Jim Becker]

You will find that all European small diesels do not use Urea but rely on a diesel particulate filter (DPF) to control emissions. It has also been admitted by the manufacturers that emission control on diesel motors is so difficult that their future use is in some doubt unless new ways can be found. One of the manufacturers, I am not sure which one, has started to build or intends to build a hybrid using diesel/electric which if done right should be a stunning combination.

Chris, rumor has it that the DEF (Urea) method is going to be adopted "over there", too, in the not to distant future.

[David Weaver]

Extracting hydrogen from water can be done with twelve volts from an alternator. The HHO kits that I have seen videos of on YouTube are pretty simple kits that use a small bottle of water, a small plastic module that provides the hydrogen separation and a couple of tubes. This is a hydrogen assist type system at this point but I expect it will be modified and improved. A hydrogen generator can be made and operated in your back yard powered by a small solar panel. The Japanese have a model home that is completely powered by a generator about the size of a exterior heat pump and it produces enough hydrogen to power a car to go to work and back. This model has been operating for several years now.

A couple years ago Honda was running TV commercials for a new hydrogen car that came with a hydrogen generator. The commercials ran for just a couple days and then they stopped.

BTW the HHO kits will work on diesel engines as well as gas.

Jim, the issue of world wide national energy consumption and the health of our planet isn't political in my mind. Some may use the subject for political advantage but the truth is it is about making responsible choices based on what is best for people not governments or big business. I believe as soon as the people decide to make the decisions for themselves we will move forward. Its obvious that elected officials disagree with the people as to what is best. The problem as I see it is how can you collect road taxes when people make their own hydrogen fuel at home. This is also an economic situation not political as we all know we have to pay taxes so we will have roads for our vehicles.

Brian, the BlueTec system injects urea into the exhaust which converts/re-burns the exhaust gases and removes the bad oder. Seems to me we could retrofit existing diesels to this technology inexpensively and help clean up the air in the short term. BTW there is no pollution from burning hydrogen, nothing comes out of the exhaust pipe except water vapor.
.

The trouble with making your own hydrogen and using the electricity that you've generated or purchased is that it yields less energy than the electricity would've in the first place. The first clue in that is that the fuel is water, gets burned, and returns to water. There will never be a positive yield from that.

If the issue is simply portability, then you can certainly expend more energy to make the hydrogen.

The same thing applies with the solar cells, it's likely more efficient to charge batteries to run a car than it is to try to make HHO.

There are a LOT of people who will gladly take your money, but if there was a legitimate way to do it that was known, every large maker of everything would be clamoring for the rights to do it.

[David Weaver]

According to a diesel mechanic that I know (who works for a large hauler), the trucks running urea have been a lot less reliable than their older trucks were. I don't remember what he said was the cutoff year for good reliability, but it was before EGR and DEF. 2006 or 2007 maybe?

[Brian Elfert]

2006 was the last year before DPFs were added. Engines manufactured on or after Jan 1, 2007 had to have a diesel particulate filter installed. Engines made before Jan 1, 2007 could still be sold after Jan 1. Trucking companies ordered a great many trucks in the two years before DPFs were required. Truck manufacturers had order backlogs of months or even years. I'm sure truck manufacturers put the older engines in until every last one was gone.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2G8wXLtPzTI

[Chris Padilla]

Looks like BMW moved where the DEF nozzle is on the 535d. A bit more convenient.
268431

[David Weaver]

Same mechanic that I mentioned above clarified that it's the EGR setup that seems to cause the problem, that the DEF isn't really an issue. He said that the trucks run clean on the DEF without an EGR valve and wishes they'd just ditch the whole EGR concept. It sounds like the EGR does reduce the usage of DEF, but in their case he believes it would be cheaper to just not have the EGR.

How much does DEF cost per gallon? Apparently it improves mileage (I don't really follow why that is, but I'm sure anyone who can read could find out on google pretty quickly).

[Chris Padilla]

The cheapest I've seen is around $5/gallon but to get that fancy bottle that BMW uses is more like $18/gallon. It might be worth it for the bottle on a one-shot and then use the cheaper stuff. It doesn't appear to be anything more than 3/8 urea and 5/8 deionized water. That is it.

[Chris Padilla]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

[Jim Matthews]

The way to use a diesel in an automobile would be as the power plant for a hybrid. In that application they would be much cleaner.

Quite right.
It's on the horizon (http://www.plugincars.com/first-drive-volkswagen-xl1-plug-diesel-hybrid-127594.html) - but not coming to market soon.

Cheap and safe charging stations need to be rolled out, first.

[David Weaver]

The cheapest I've seen is around $5/gallon but to get that fancy bottle that BMW uses is more like $18/gallon. It might be worth it for the bottle on a one-shot and then use the cheaper stuff. It doesn't appear to be anything more than 3/8 urea and 5/8 deionized water. That is it.

Yeah, I noticed that composition when I looked up what's in it. It's pretty plain. Figure urea is about $1.25-1.50 a pound right now, and there's 2.6 pounds of urea in the solution, it won't get a lot cheaper than $5. But BMW and VW/Audi seem to have similar ideas about pricing. I hope the service advisor at your dealer is a little more ethical than mine. Mine would give me some scare story about how if I used anything else I might not get warranty coverage and "you never know what's in the aftermarket products. people let money get in the way of taking care of their care properly".

[Chris Padilla]

I get "free" maintenance for the first 4 years/50k (I will likely pay to extend that to 6 years/100k) and BMW will top up the DEF for me. After 6 years, I guess it's on me. I have a while to worry about it. Yes, the service departments for these high-end cars are famous for scaring the consumers into using their name-brand products. An informed consumer costs them money. :)

[Jerome Stanek]

Yeah I loaded tons of urea when I worked for a crop service. Urea is just 46-0-0 fertilizer Or Cow Piss

[Chris Parks]

We have both types of motor in our truck fleet with no issues. The main problem with the Urea or as we call it Addblue is the tank is not big enough. I believe now that they are making the tanks a lot bigger for decent refill intervals due to trucks operating in remote areas.

[Brian Elfert]

Most major truck stops now have bulk DEF at the pumps. Flying J and Pilot truck stops generally charge $2.80 a gallon with a few at $2.90 a gallon.

[David Weaver]

I get "free" maintenance for the first 4 years/50k (I will likely pay to extend that to 6 years/100k) and BMW will top up the DEF for me. After 6 years, I guess it's on me. I have a while to worry about it. Yes, the service departments for these high-end cars are famous for scaring the consumers into using their name-brand products. An informed consumer costs them money. :)

Ahh...it must go through it fairly slowly then. Same truck guys I referred to above mentioned that they were burning a gallon of DEF for 15 or something gallons of fuel.

[Jason Roehl]

Ahh...it must go through it fairly slowly then. Same truck guys I referred to above mentioned that they were burning a gallon of DEF for 15 or something gallons of fuel.

http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/MB10033.pdf

Page 6.

[David Weaver]

1-3% depending based on that. Sounds like the guys driving the trucks are not telling the mechanics the right amount for how much DEF they're actually using. Or maybe they're just not doing a very good job of keeping track of it.

if it improves mileage 5% like they claim, it's the same or less than diesel per gallon and it's only used 1-3% as fast as diesel fuel, it wouldn't seem like such a bad idea as the EGR valve. Actually, maybe the EGR valve isn't the worst thing in the world, either, except for the way it's functionally applied (where a truck goes into limp mode when the EGR valve isn't functioning properly). Probably wouldn't be allowed to make an engine that functioned fine with the EGR valve not working, or people would just keep driving it that way.

[Keith Outten]

Just had my Sprinter Van serviced yesterday. I used 2.5 gallons of DEF in 5,000 miles.
.

[Chris Padilla]

I haven't a clue how much DEF my potential future 535d holds. I'll have to find that out. I'm reading around that it should last a year before needing refilled. Maybe the cars (smaller) don't use as much as trucks or Keith's van?

[David Weaver]

Just had my Sprinter Van serviced yesterday. I used 2.5 gallons of DEF in 5,000 miles.
.

That's pretty good!! Maybe there's something wrong with the heavy trucks. I won't say the company the shop foreman works for because I don't want him to be lined out. Despite what he commented about the DEF, he doesn't mind it so much like he does the EGRs, which in his words "they can't fix in the shop and nobody at the company seems to have a clue how to fix problems with them, either". Imagine it stinks being a lifetime diesel mechanic and then spending a large part of your day with "tech support" on warranty problems when the company has time quotas for how long you can spend on each truck.

[Brian Elfert]

Just had my Sprinter Van serviced yesterday. I used 2.5 gallons of DEF in 5,000 miles.
.

That seems pretty good to me. If you got 20 MPG you used 1 gallon of DEF per 100 gallons of fuel.

[Max Speedwell]

I did a search on the word "diesel" here in OT and read some interesting discussions.

I have two questions regarding diesel fuel and diesel engines.

(1) Is diesel fuel prevalent? I think it may not be as ubiquitous as gasoline but is it pretty much everywhere? I need to start paying attention to it at the gas stations I frequent. :)

(2) Are diesel engines any more maintenance than a gasoline engine? I mean this in terms of time and cost.

I can handle most of the mechanical work on my own vehicles (all gasoline) including most troubleshooting and repairs. Are diesels any different to deal with?

I'm seriously considering a diesel engine for our next car. I like the MPG gain plus it just sounds kinda cool to have something a bit different. I hear the torque is pretty amazing with a diesel engine. I have ZERO experience with diesel cars or engines. I'm not even sure I've ever ridden in a vehicle with a diesel engine.

Well Chris, here are a few answers:

First off, let me qualify my answers...

I've had a handful of Diesels (Big Volvo truck, VW pickup with a 1.6 turbo Jetta engine, and a long list of Mercedes 240D sedans, Kubota tractor, Iseki tractor, Kubota generator, Changfa generator, blah, blah, blah...) and can say:

*Most used diesels have been abused, and most of those through ignorance. Very few know how to own a diesel. These are not just gas engines that take fuel from the green handled pump. This makes finding a good diesel even that much more difficult.

*Chris displayed great wisdom when he said; Shop the owner, not the car." How wise... how wise....

*The fuel is very prevalent. I once had the family out on a drive and we stopped at a gas station in a small cutsie, Bavarian themed tourist town. There was a line at the gas pumps. I drove around to the back. The diesel pump was clean (less customer traffic), and right near the restrooms. A woman walked around to the back of the building to look for the restrooms and when she saw me pumping fuel AND not having to wait in line, she was more than a little indignant. Add to that and my fuel was about 20% low priced than her gasoline, and my tall geared differential gave me 33 mpg in a big, heavy sedan (ahhh... those were the good old days).

*Diesels are, and then are not more work to maintain than a gas engined vehicle, BUT they must be maintained by the book. Change the oil by the book. Do a service check by the book. Change the filters by the book. They will tolerate abuse but suddenly tell your wallet that the abuse must now stop. Treat them right and they will treat you right. Also, you just can't go out and buy a diesel. You MUST know what you're looking at. About 33 years ago Car & Driver magazine had an excellent article with something like 108 check points, on how to buy a car. A reprint of that article, and a Mercedes diesel buyers guide (un-named publisher since naming them may violate the terms of the forum agreement) in your arsenal is a must. You will only need a few tools when inspecting an older Mercedes diesel.

*Every vehicle we own (yes, even the tractor!) is a diesel. Diesel, as an anonymous person once pointed out, isn't a fuel... it's a lifestyle. Truer words about diesels may have never been spoken. Be prepared to change mental gears about vehicle ownership.

*My VW is a little more difficult for maintenance than the Mercedes(s). Not as much room, a different way to adjust the valves, and VW are hard to kill, but easy to wound. Grandma can work on the '80 - '85 240D. The '72 Volvo, and the '64 Impala I once owned (NEVER should have sold either car!!) might have been easier to maintain the the 240D, but if so, not that much easier.

*I have the factory manuals, sales brochure, videos, bulletins, service bulletins, Bentley, Haynes, and possibly even Chilton manuals. I have most every piece of literature even written about the W123 series. If you decide on a Mercedes, then you will need the same literature too.

*Not all diesels are created equal. The Mercedes Benz 300SDL was horrible, but a very beautiful car. The Isuzu NPR have had questionable engines. Some survived, some grenaded at 110,000 miles. Kubotas are the VW of industrial diesels... easy to wound, and if you're not careful, you can kill it. The small Kubotas (wanna buy mine?) are a nightmare to own. Electronic controls, remove the head to adjust the valves (yes... really), and have you thinking they are totally reliable then, WHAM, get out the wallet.

*Chances are very good that my next car will be a W123 (240D, 300TD), or a W116 (pre '80 300SD). I currently have a pair of 240D sitting outside and can't imagine owning any other vehicle.

If you want ultimate reliability, long life, cheap, and easy to service, and unquestionable quality, then buy a Camry.

-Max

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I loved my diesel rental in Europe. Until I stepped into a bit at the pump. Brought it into the carpet and smelled my whole trip. Smell is a big downside for me.

[Jerome Stanek]

Our truck drivers carry rubber gloves in the side box to use when the refill. One driver even has a pair of over size boots in there to put on so he doesn't carry the smell into his truck becuase like he said he sleeps in there.

[Jason Roehl]

I loved my diesel rental in Europe. Until I stepped into a bit at the pump. Brought it into the carpet and smelled my whole trip. Smell is a big downside for me.

One of my first real exposures to diesel was on a job site. We had been running a 4WD, 66', diesel boom lift for several days. I knew that it would be bad to run it out of fuel, so I started calling around to see if someone could come fill it. No joy. So I grabbed a 5 gallon gas can (yes, a red one--I didn't know the "protocol" and it was what I had). The job site was about 45 minutes from my house, but there was an interstate exit on the way about 5 min from the job. I pulled in, and it was a truck stop. I open the can and the vent, grab the pump nozzle, stick it in the can and pull the trigger all the way. Yeah, those pumps were for filling semi tractors...

[Jim Stewart]

Max,

What Kubota do you have? I found the Kubota diesel very reliable in an older bobcat. I have a 2009 kubota M108X 96 pto hp. I love that thing. I was considering an L38 to mow along my woods and spray with. I have a wonderful kubota dealer near me. I want to ask them about your concerns. JIm

[Chris Parks]

For all the good intentioned advice and anecdotes here one thing needs to be remembered. Any late diesel is common rail and any common rail is beyond the home handy man. They are also invariably overhead cam/four valve per cylinder and controlled by very complex electronics. The days of self maintenance are over unfortunately.

[ray hampton]

For all the good intentioned advice and anecdotes here one thing needs to be remembered. Any late diesel is common rail and any common rail is beyond the home handy man. They are also invariably overhead cam/four valve per cylinder and controlled by very complex electronics. The days of self maintenance are over unfortunately.




If each cylinder got 2 intake & exhaust valves, DO the set of valves open at the same time ?

[Chris Parks]

Yes is the short answer.

[Paul Wunder]

I have owned two diesel vehicles, both were Volkswagons. The first, a Rabbit, ran 287,000 miles before I tired of it. It averaged 50 mpg and I used it for a long commute to work. The model year was a 1984; it was slow, smelly, and the heater took forever to warm up. BUT, it was reliable.

The second diesel was a VW New Beetle, a 1999 version. it was a piece of junk. Electrical problems abounded; car repeatedly failed on the road; three a/c system failures and replacements, and serious undiagnosable problems with significant loss of engine power.. I dumped the car at 93K miles.

The biggest problem that I had with both vehicles was the lack of diesel trained mechanics (my cars were always dealer serviced) to repair my vehicle. Because of the low sales volume, not many mechanics were trained on diesels and I suspect that would be true today even at BMW. Pretty scary when quite often I knew more about my vehicle than the mechanics did.

Personally, for me, my first diesel served its purpose but never again for me.

[Jim Becker]

Paul, I think that the mechanics thing is going to resolve since more and more diesels are being offered now and going forward. It was a "chicken and egg" problem, but the tide is turning.

[peter gagliardi]

I have owned many many gas cars and trucks over the years. I started with diesel trucks in 2002- a GMC 2500hd that did everything and more that I asked of it, followed by a newer crew cab GMC when we outgrew the extra cab. I sold that and bought a 2011 Ford crew, decided I didn't need a new truck and payment, and sold it to buy a 2004 Chevy crew. I have also since 2008 or so been driving VW diesels- a 1995, and a 1997 after someone wrecked my 95. When I got rid of the Ford truck, I sold the 97, and bought a 2013 VW Jetta TDI manual tranny. I say all this because in all those years and over the 4-500,000 miles I've put on these vehicles, I believe and have found them to be more reliable and easier maintenance wise than the gasses I used to drive. The maintenance on a TRUCK can be more costly at every oil change, and filters are a little more- if you know where to shop to get good quality AND good prices.
The maintenance on the cars CAN be less than the gas counterpart. Generally same amount of oil as gas.
Two huge differences are: 1. If you can drive a little conservatively, you can really, really beat the EPA window sticker mpg.
My Jetta is getting 46 mpg lifetime mpg at 12,000 miles so far- estimates were 34-36mpg city, and 41mpg highway!
2. The power is in a much more useful area- 1200 rpm- 2300 rpm. I see no sense in wringing the heck out of an engine, and am quite tired of the gas method of having to mash the right pedal to the floor while it kicks the heck out of the auto tranny to get things done.

I can never see going to gas again as long as there is a diesel option.

Diesels currently run cleaner than gas engines, but most people don't know this.

You really should test drive a diesel, and get it on a twisting up and down road, and see if you don't like the performance better than a gasser.

[Charles McKinley]

Check out Freds TDI page. They are VW centric but have a section for other brands. Good honest people like at the Creek. Talk to the srevice guy and find out what oil you will need and what it cost. You mentioned the BMW service plan but it will be an issue if you keep the car past it.

If the people at Freds can't answer your questions they will be able to point you toward someone that can.

Sure miss my TDI wagon with a 5 speed.

[Chris Padilla]

That is an interesting site, Charles. I just glanced through it for several minutes and read a whole thread on a guy who just took delivery of a 2014 535d X-drive BMW. I really hope BMW reinstates the ECO Credit as that will make it a slam dunk to get the d over the i. :)

[Chris Barnett]

Diesel was the preferred option, but with the new regulations on diesels, they have just about destroyed the benefits. Diesel's major benefit is that they would have lasted hundreds of thousands more than the gasoline engines before major overhaul is required. Odometer readings of 500K for diesel are very common whereas a gasoline engine with over 200k is nearly a miracle.

I have two vehicles with diesel and three gassers, and prefer the diesels in all respects. But the jury is still out on the new vehicles, so I, if in the market, would look for an older model of an upscale make to obtain better design and accoutrements, and have a reasonable account ready for any immediate repair. Diesels give one the satisfaction that it is strong...and the only downside is that more than often, you will get your shoes filthy while filling it at the local truckstop. You will want to avoid the Mom and Pop stations...you want fresh fuel without water, which is more probable from high volume dealers.