Building a few interior doors

[mreza Salav]

I mentioned earlier that we will be building a new house for ourselves and I'm taking on some of the woodworking tasks myself.
I asked several questions here about building doors and as a test run I decided to build 5 (out of many).
These are made out of solid maple and plywood panel with applied moulding. I'm making the mouldings too. It is a shaker style two panel door; about 1 3/4" thick (just under 1/16" less) with 3/4" plywood panel. The construction I decided on was floating tenons. Here are some pics of some of the materials dimensioned:

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I installed my new power feeder on my router table; got a 3/8" thick plate and attached the column to it and then used two parallel clamps to secure it. As it turned out it is the most useful tool in this project as all the pieces (as you'll see) went through it:
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Here are the marks for mortises in the pieces. I used my router jig with a 4" long 1/2" spiral bit to cut the 5/8" thick mortises. The top and middle rail take one and the bottom rail (8.25" wide) gets two:

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There is a 1/2" deep dado cut all around to receive the panels. The power feeder made an easy job of moving those thick and heavy pieces over the router table. I'm glad I made my router table big enough. I was thinking to use my shaper for this but the router table is actually bigger and the big router has not hesitated so far:

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I had to make a bigger coping sled to do the matching short tenons at the end of the rails:

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[mreza Salav]

Here is one of the doors with the floating tenons ready for glue up. I used West system epoxy for this:

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I should say that I kept the stiles wider than the final dimension as I thought the edges would get beaten and become damaged during the glue-up. I decided I'll cut the door to final dimension with a track saw and a long rail.

After cutting 12 big mortises for two doors I got tired and decided to use 1/2" dowels instead. Here are a bunch of dowels made (96 to be exact) at 4.5" long, then sanded the ends to make fitting them easier. The top, middle, and bottom rails (in the next 3 doors) got 4, 5, and 7 dowels respectively:

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I glue the panels in, so with the short tenons, dowels, and glued in panels I think the door will hold up together fine.

I did the glue up of each door in two stages, first one side, then panels + the other side. The panels are also glued in place:

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Here I'm making the mouldings. It takes 3 passes over the router (one for the small rabbet on the back and two for shaping the moulding). Here are a bunch of mouldings prepared:


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[mreza Salav]

Along the way in this project came across a great deal on a Performax 37x2 sander that I couldn't pass up. I thought the price is missing a digit when I saw it but after I called the seller it was his asking price.

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Started sanding the doors and cutting them into size. The track saw (TS55 REQ) really really struggled (stalled several times) even though I was using a 12 teeth rip blade. These are under 1 3/4" thick doors.

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Then there was this recall of REQ model by Festool which I used it to trade up to a TS75 :D
I was hesitant to send the doors through the sander and for the first two I used ROS but then tried it and it seemed to work fine:

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These doors are very heavy and the tricky part was to pick them up from one end and move in my cramped shop to the other end to send them through again.

Used a plane to remove saw marks on the edges and smooth them:

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The edges of the door are VERY sharp; will use a round over bit later over them.
Built the following miter sled to cut all the mouldings; it gives perfect squares up to 42"x42" (the biggest size I tested). It will come handy later when I make mitered cabinet doors...

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[mreza Salav]

Finally, cut the mouldings and attached to one of the doors. Here is one of the doors ready:

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3 other doors are sanded and cut to size (one more to do); and apply all the mouldings.

Now I have a question for the experts: as I am seriously running out of space to store things the only place I can store these doors (for almost a year until they are installed) is in the basement in a little corner. I built this frame out of 2x6 to lift them off the floor (which typically is very dry, no moisture issue here). Then I put the plastic vapor barrier on top and my plan is to stock the doors on top of it and then perhaps wrap them in plastic.

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Is this a reasonable way to keep them with the hope that they stay flat? I thought I also clamp them all together.
Any comments advice?

My next project is to build an entry door and many more things to come (including cabinets); hopefully I will build the remaining interior/closet doors after those are done.

[Andrew Hughes]

If you checked the platform for twist with winding sticks and its flat.I say it's good.

[jack forsberg]

Mo

not sure if when you cut the doors square/to size that you put a 5 degree cut on the lockset side. thicker doors need this to clear the jam. Even more so if your going with larger hinges that throw the pins out from the face by an 1" or so,

looks good so far and very solid.

jack
English machines

[Jeff Monson]

Great job on the doors, they should hold up very well!!

Have you applied a clear finish to them? It would help stabilize moisture while you are storing them. Maybe its way to early in the house planning stages to have a finish picked out.

[Jeff Duncan]

I would finish them before storing them, and make sure you finish all the exposed surfaces tops bottoms etc.. Once they're finished you can simply put a piece of ply or whatever on the floor and lean them up against a wall with the stile to the floor. Flat stacking may be OK, but I'd give the finish plenty of time to dry first;)

good luck,
JeffD

[mreza Salav]

Thanks for the comments.

Jack, yes I learned this 5 degree bevel trick from a guy who has been in door business for almost 45 years.

Finishing them now isn't an option as we haven't decided many of the details of the house (hardwood type/color, etc). We are still at the blue print stage.
I'm thinking wrapping them in vapor barrier if that helps reduce moisture change.

[Peter Quinn]

Great job on the doors. I'd finish them if possible and let the finish fully cure before stacking flat. I'd put a big vapor barrier down, stack the doors, cover and wrap the whole stack, duck tape the ends of the plastic at the folds. Minimum if seal the top and bottoms, ends of the stiles, with a sanding sealer like shellac. I like flat stacking for long term storage except the parts that absorb the most moisture are also the most exposed, so you need to take steps to mitigate that, particularly with a species like maple. I like to throw a moving blanket over the whole stack after wrapping to slow down any heat transfer, hot , cold or otherwise. I've had to store a pile a few times when no sites weren't ready for them for some reason. Always seems to work out fine. I've been told either sticker them so the whole door is exposed, or wrap them up tight so nothing is exposed. Leaving and unwrapped stack through several seasons is courting failure.

[Peter Quinn]

I was looking at your process, looks great, my only though was on the dowels, I'd use longer dowels and less of them, in fact I do! We use 1/2" X 6" hard maple spiral dowels, set in equally to both adjoining parts. Three for a bottom rail, 2 for a top or lock rail, 1 for anything. Under 4" width, like center stiles or mid rails. If you put the dowels too close together you end up with week short grain between each hole. Ours are spaced 2 1/2" on center. With the longer dowels its plenty strong enough, quite a bit quicker too if doing them by hand.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Peter. I will seal is the end grains and wrap the whole thing in a sealed plastic bag (tape all around).

Do you think more dowels is problematic for expansion/contraction? Doing dowels was much faster than mortis and floating tenons.
Fewer dowels would be even easier.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Peter. I will seal is the end grains and wrap the whole thing in a sealed plastic bag (tape all around).

Do you think more dowels is problematic for expansion/contraction? Doing dowels was much faster than mortis and floating tenons.
Fewer dowels would be even easier.

I don't think more dowels affects expansion/contraction, the issues is strength in torsion. When you weight the fulcrum end of the door, the lock side, it pushes down on all the dowel joints, you want enough wood below these dowels to push back. Problem with too many dowels is too little solid stock between the dowels. You wind up in some of those pics with 1/2", maybe a little more, between each dowel, thats short grain at that point. I suppose when you glue all the dowels in it fills in all the holes, sort of tightens the whole affair up, but the way it was explained to me, there is a break even point beyond which more dowels is either marginal or negative, its always more work, best to keep it simple. Longer dowels help, more dowels may not. I like loose tenons the best, more long grain gluing surface, but its a lot of routing as you noted. Slot mortiser sure helps if it comes to a whole house full, for dowels or slip tenons. We've done thousands of dowel doors without so much as a single joint failure, always following the schedule above. Ours have spiral reliefs in them, they are commercially made, this makes it much easier to get the joints together as it relieves the hydrolic pressure, allows excess glue to migrate as necessary across the joint. I have no idea where to buy these on a retail level, ours are ordered 10K per run at .490" diameter, 10K is the minimum custom order from the supplier. Sure facilitates the process though.

PS: I ve had a chance to view this post on the big screen, phone doesn't do your work justice, really beautiful job. Its going to be a beautiful home!

[mreza Salav]

Many thanks Peter, I appreciate. Yes, the spacing between dowels is 1/2" (using my dowel jig). Changing the spacing between them is tricky.
I seriously considered a slot mortiser for my Minimax J/P but space is an issue and I think moving the pieces to that and back, making the tenons, etc will be a lot more time consuming than dowels.
I have started looking at Festool DF700 but haven't convinced myself to buy one, might do it for the next batch of doors (the tool expenses is growing for this house :-)

I have found a few supplier of 1/2"x5" dowles (like this http://www.woodparts.ca/product4311.html). If I keep using dowels I think I'll get those instead.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

[QUOTE=mreza Salav;2135843]Many thanks Peter, I appreciate. Yes, the spacing between dowels is 1/2" (using my dowel jig). Changing the spacing between them is tricky.
I seriously considered a slot mortiser for my Minimax J/P but space is an issue and I think moving the pieces to that and back, making the tenons, etc will be a lot more time consuming than dowels.
I have started looking at Festool DF700 but haven't convinced myself to buy one, might do it for the next batch of doors (the tool expenses is growing for this house :-)

I have found a few supplier of 1/2"x5" dowles (like this http://www.woodparts.ca/product4311.html). If I keep using dowels I think I'll get those instead.[/QUOTE

nice doors! Of course if you could part with it you could buy the df700 for this project and sell it for almost the same as you paid for it when you're done.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Bill. Where one finds or sells a used one? I have looked...

Also, can the DF700 be used for reinforcing mitered cabinet doors? I read the smallest bit it accepts is 8mm which I suppose is Ok for 3/4-7/8" thick cabinet doors.

[Michael Weber]

WOW! Thats an impressive pictorial of an impressive project build. Did I say I'm impressed?

[mreza Salav]

Applied the mouldings to all the doors and sand them as well. The mitered cut look good.
It only remains to seal the end grain edges of stiles so as to minimize moisture exchange in the next year or so before they go for installation (hopefully).

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[Chris Fournier]

If you built these doors properly and you store them properly they will stay flat. Only a fool would finish these doors at this stage in the game, you will be fitting these doors to the openings once your house is built. Quite frankly it's a bit premature to be building doors at this stage period - your drawings are not finalized. Epoxy is not a wise choice for adhesive given the joinery, PVA would have been better. The floating tenons are king, you can adjust your assembly and they are strong, I would not have gone to dowels. Given that these are interior doors there will be no real consequences.

[Mark Bolton]

Quite frankly it's a bit premature to be building doors at this stage period - your drawings are not finalized.

Didnt look back but Im pretty sure he said he's working off prints. Purchased at any lumber yard the doors could have been built a year ago for all you know, they are standard sizes and he's building slabs and jambs. There is no "fitting to openings" that I can think of. If all the finishes were locked down, pre-finishing would be a major asset if all the swings were locked as well.

At the very worst he may wind up changing a swing or an opening from a 3-0 to 2-8 or something like that but I cant see how getting a jump on the project could hurt given what he is projecting to bite off. If he leaves the jambs/hinge mortise/pre-hanging til last that will be a non issue.

By the sounds of the project he is building a massive amount of footage and trying to make it up with his labor.

It all looks good, but to me, for that style door, I still just cant see it being a financial gain though as I have said all along its a great personal reward. The risk alone is more than I would entertain myself.

Big plus is, at least given the time these doors sit in storage, you will know if they are viable or not by the time they are ready to be installed. On that day they will either be flat or they wont.

[Chris Fournier]

Didnt look back but Im pretty sure he said he's working off prints. Purchased at any lumber yard the doors could have been built a year ago for all you know, they are standard sizes and he's building slabs and jambs. There is no "fitting to openings" that I can think of. If all the finishes were locked down, pre-finishing would be a major asset if all the swings were locked as well.

At the very worst he may wind up changing a swing or an opening from a 3-0 to 2-8 or something like that but I cant see how getting a jump on the project could hurt given what he is projecting to bite off. If he leaves the jambs/hinge mortise/pre-hanging til last that will be a non issue.

By the sounds of the project he is building a massive amount of footage and trying to make it up with his labor.

It all looks good, but to me, for that style door, I still just cant see it being a financial gain though as I have said all along its a great personal reward. The risk alone is more than I would entertain myself.

Big plus is, at least given the time these doors sit in storage, you will know if they are viable or not by the time they are ready to be installed. On that day they will either be flat or they wont.

You fit the door to the opening plain and simple. If you are taking the time to make your own doors then you are doing things "old school" and the path has been laid out for us for centuries. If you are a tract builder knocking out volume, I'd agree with you, no one expects or cares about a properly hung door..

[Will Blick]

amazing post, thx for sharing... gives us motivation...
my concern of doing the same, was the final weight of the doors, I work alone and fear blowing my back out moving these things around... do you have an approx. weight?

[mreza Salav]

The plan, including door sizes and swings is fixed; so I know how many 32" doors, how many 30", etc. I don't understand what's the difference between building a 32" door 1 year earlier vs buying a 32" door if the plan is calling for a 32" door. I don't do the hing mortises or handle/knob holes or even the jambs yet (only the slabs at this point). In fact, I did this run of 5 doors as a test; I won't be making the rest of the doors until sometime next spring and I do them only if these 5 remain in good shape. If yes, I will hopefully build the rest, if not I'll just buy paint grade pre-hung doors and call this as an exercise and lesson learned.

Will, I am trying to minimize the amount of times I move them as they are really a burden on the back. I estimate they are between 110-150lb or so.

[Chris Fournier]

My point is simple and it is an axiom which makes me think others have seen this in the past "plans change". I have no doubt that you are planing carefully. I have built and hung several doors for my own house and for clients, it is pretty fun work, I'm sure that you're enjoying yourself.

[Rob Feldner]

Nice looking doors. When I have to store doors for any length of time after making them, I put down stickers on the floor making sure they are DEAD level and place the first door on them. The rest get stickered and stacked on top, the more stickers the better. You glued the panels? I wouldn't do that, I'd let them float in the frame. You might be fine, but the panels will likely move differently than the rails and stiles.

[Peter Quinn]

My point is simple and it is an axiom which makes me think others have seen this in the past "plans change". I have no doubt that you are planing carefully. I have built and hung several doors for my own house and for clients, it is pretty fun work, I'm sure that you're enjoying yourself.

These doors should go in pre-hung, hinges set, bevel cut, stops tacked on, everything but the knob and strike installed. Only thing left to do is scribe the jamb legs to the floor, set the knob and strike, nail off the stops. Then he can pull the doors , skuff sand, spray final coats. No reason not to build ahead on a whole house, its a door not a soufflé. They are going to hang in a hole for the next 100 years. I've done plenty of whole house door jobs at this point, sometimes a door here or there changes if the clients a fickle or the archetect is a flake, but assuming everyone involved has their heads screwed on straight, iME changes are minimal. Don't let your roofer instal prefnished doors, but a good carpenter should be able to handle it. If a dark stain will be applied the stakes are higher for prefinished, but if possible, sealing the ends is a good call at least. For the bevels you can buy a 3 degree bottom bearing patten bit for quick clean results.

[Jeff Duncan]

Peter beat me to it. I build pre-finished doors and custom jambs all the time. No trimming on site except for the bottoms of the jambs. Everything is pre-finished, tops bottoms etc. which is a basic requirement for doors and is rare in doors that are fit on site. I'd hazard a guess that 90% of the interior doors out there are raw top and bottom. I don't see the logic in hanging a door, then pulling it and finishing it, then putting it back? Have it all finished ahead of time and avoid extra steps that cost money and time.

As far as plans changing that's up to him since it's his house, nothing changes without his input. He can move a door and still not change the size of the opening. The idea of fitting a door to the opening is as practical these days as building a house as you go without plans. It just doesn't make any sense to do so anymore. You plan for a certain size door, rough frame for that size door, then hang that size door and jamb in the opening. I'm not saying guys aren't doing it the old fashioned way anymore, just not with quality custom doors;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

I don't disagree with previous comments ,but their are still those who insist on hanging slab doors. Two local GCs here insist on hanging their own doors and use a plumb bob on the jambs, not trusting a level. It is unusual for houses here to have all doors properly fitted and a few years back there was a big uproar from unit mfgs. because industry standards were raised a little .Since you are making ,not buying, you will get a good result either way.

[Mark Bolton]

Custom or not even with hanging slabs its still standard slab, jamb, and rough opening sizes. I surely cant say Ive worked in every situation but in new construction at any scale Ive never known of "fitting a door" other than cutting anything needed of the bottom for clearance/hvac or beveling them if they are square edge slabs.

I could see in a whacky or uber custom situation someone wanting a 33.3125" door instead of a 32" which is fine, but unless they are doing the work themselves, they will and should pay dearly for it.

[Mel Fulks]

Around here a slab door is full opening size with no bevel. Good to keep in mind that making door units takes some specialized equipment. The spec changes I referred to before were made in direct response to complaints about ill fitting doors. The response from the mfgs (who had all the right stuff) was basicly "it's too hard". But a determined guy working for himself might might rig up something very good and time saving....and I'm sure there are good quality manufactured units.

[Phil Simard]

Epoxy is not a wise choice for adhesive given the joinery, PVA would have been better.

Congratulation for your doors. Loose tenons are for sure a lot of work. And you don't want to mess with the router equipped with a 3-4 inch spiral bit in the maple. But your doors will last a lifetime.

I would like to have an explanation about the glue statement. By better, you mean cheaper and less messy or stronger?

I did built doors and always used epoxy. Not for its strength or waterproof ability, but for assembly time. Having 15 minutes to assemble a 5 panels + windows door alone is impossible for me. Maybe I'm not skilled enough, but it takes me at least 30 minutes to assemble a door with multiple panels. So for me, a one hour pot life epoxy is a necessity. I recently made a screen door, very simple and used waterproof PVA glue. Took me too long to assemble. When I finally clamp everything, I heard a CRACK as the glue has started to set. I hope the door will stand!

[mreza Salav]

Sealed the end of the stiles (with shellac). Changed my plan on how to store them, instead of laying flat on a platform decided to tie them together on their edge:

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And then wrap them up in vapor barrier and sealed:

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Next project is building the entry door unit.

[Peter Quinn]

Looks fantastic. Entries are fun...but they take up so much space! Even small ones. I guess you have to build knock down into the design. Most of the one at work are monolithic, which makes a nice solid entry, but it takes a huge space, 5 guys and a flatbed to move them. Exciting.

[mreza Salav]

You are right Peter about the size of entry unit. I have started going through my lumber to pick the pieces for each part. My plan is to only glue up the side lites; all the other
parts will be glued up on site as I cannot handle the door or the frame by myself in my shop (I could barely move around these interior doors by myself).
I'm adding a little spice to my design: two fluted half cylinder columns between the door and side lites. It would be fun to turn them on a jig I'm making as I don't have a lathe with 96"+ bed...

[Tom M King]

I'm fairly new to these forums. I didn't read the whole thread, but was wondering if you have set the jambs yet? I built custom houses for 35 years, and never used a Prehung door. I have making jambs, and hanging doors down to a science if you are interested.

[mreza Salav]

I'm fairly new to these forums. I didn't read the whole thread, but was wondering if you have set the jambs yet? I built custom houses for 35 years, and never used a Prehung door. I have making jambs, and hanging doors down to a science if you are interested.

The house isn't drywalled yet and so I haven't built the jambs (if this weather gets a bit warm maybe we can do the drywalls in a couple of weeks or so).
My plan is to do all the cuts on the doors (hinges, knobs, etc) and do the hinges on the jambs too, then hang the hinge side of the jamb and plumb it, then hang the door, then finish the other side of the jamb, then tack the stops. But I am open to suggestions as all these projects I'm doing are firsts for me.