basement drainage systems

[Clarence Martin]

Got an old house and many years ago they installed the forced hot air furnace ductwork through the Attic. House has 2 separte heating systems. 1st floor is boiler heat. 2 nd floor is an apartment. The problem lies in the 2nd floor heating system and how it was layed out. The roof over which the ductwork is situated, is a semi flat roof. and not much clearence between the roof and the ductwork. We insulated the attic with 1 foot of blown in celleous insulation. Had heavy ice hanging from the Gutters on the back roof. Took the Gutters off and just have to occasionaly knock the icicles off the edge of the roof during the Winter.


Problem comes in Spring , Summer and Fall when it rains. With the Gutters on, not wet basement, Gutter off, basement leaks.... Can't have the Gutters on because ice builds up and tears through the rubber roof system eventually.


I talked to several roofers and all have told me that the only real way to fix it is to remove the flat roof and put a pitched roof on, which I can't afford at the current time.


What about those ground gutter systems ? do they work? Expensive ? Can a do it yourselfer install them ?

[Rich Engelhardt]

What about those ground gutter systems ?
Five out of the five houses we own have them.


do they work?
Yes - more or less. They do shunt the water away and to a sump pump which in turn pumps the water out into the storm sewer. If the water coming in doesn't overwhelm the pump capacity and the power doesn't go out, then it all works as planned.
A battery backup or water powered sump pump can solve problem #2.


Expensive ?
Figure between $8500 and $12,500 - depending on what's involved on the exterior part of the installation.
Rip off places will charge less and only trench the inside.
For the system to work, a drainage ditch is cut in the concrete floor about 10" to 12" wide around the perimeter of the basement, perforated PVC pipe laid sloping towards the sump, then most will install a plastic membrane going up the wall to the frost line, then the ditch filled in with gravel and concrete. On the exterior, the perimeter is hand dug down to just below where the top of the interior membrane is - then another waterproof membrane is applied to the wall and the trench refilled.


Can a do it yourselfer install them ?
No.
There are some DIY systems, but, they are a waste of money.
Plastic (perforated) troughs are epoxied around the perimeter of the wall and any water coming in is (in theory) caught by them and shunted to - who knows where?
There's no real slope in the system for water to follow and there may or may not be a sump for them to empty into.

To do it "right" - as in like the pros - put simply,,,,you'll die before you get 10% of the way into it.
Between humping buckets of busted concrete up the stairs (~ 70 pounds per 5 gal bucket), trenching by hand around the outside down 4' to 5', and humping 5 gal buckets of gravel and concrete down the stairs......
It's really a job for a crew of about 6 or 7 people --preferably young and in good shape.

Plus - with a professional install - you get a guarantee.
& yes - as highly as I think of the outfit that did three of our houses, we've had to call them back a few times to correct some things - which in a way is one reason I think so highly of the outfit.
They responded quickly, fixed the condition w/no finger pointing and left the place spotlessly clean when they were done.

Personally?
IMHO - do the roof instead. It's probably close to the same $$ & you know the water is being directed where you want it to go.

[David Weaver]

What's a ground gutter system? You mean like a french drain?

the basement of my house apparently got water in it during the 2001 hurricane. The old lady living in it paid a lot of money to have french drains installed and to have the interior of the basement partially finished following that. It hasn't had water in it since.

I have a corner sump in the basement that I assumed was helping the cause, but last year when having the electrical service replaced, I found out the outlet the sump was plugged into was dead, so literally no water has gotten in the basement in 7 years that I've owned it and without any help from a sump.

No clue what it cost the prior owner to have it installed, but I guarantee for the price I paid for the house, they didn't get their money back out of it.

[Rich Engelhardt]

literally no water has gotten in the basement in 7 years that I've owned it and without any help from a sump.W/out the pump you mean.
The sump well obviously has the ability to handle water collection during a normal rainfall.
I've seen quite a bit of that in the houses we've looked at to buy.


I guarantee for the price I paid for the house, they didn't get their money back out of it.Probably not - but -
W/out it, the finished basement may have just been a mess of decaying, rotting, mold covered walls.

That's another thing I see quite a bit of.

[David Weaver]

Yes, I have the basement caked with stuff - including gobs of carbon steel and cast iron hand tools (if I kept them through the door out on my shop, they would rust). The fact that it's absolutely dry and humidity is never a problem in it is a huge bonus. I'm getting the prior owner's money's worth out of their decision to make the basement dry.

You're right, there's still a sump. I have no idea how large it is or how it's set up because there is just a PVC pipe from the sump and the prior owner had the whole area covered with for lack of a better way to put it, laundry room flooring.

[Clarence Martin]

Found this system. It looks like it would work and be relatively inexpensive to install. We have the underground outside drainage system installed around the house, but that doesn't work for the back part of the roof where the water pours off the roof. System is only a couple of years old.


http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/building-science/ground-gutter

[David Weaver]

I should add, since I'm such an apparent fan of the drain in my house and don't want to oversell the capabilities, that in my township, gutters are required to be installed, and run underground, so there is no part of my house that gets roof draining unless there is a downpour and the drains are overwhelmed (which does happen on rare occasions).

[Prashun Patel]

Have you considered instead a better gutter system? Mine is Gutter Topper, but there are others. Some are very good at preventing ice damming. You can also get baffles installed on the roof to stymie that. Is yr attic vented properly?

Getting the water away from the house before letting it enter the ground is the best approach.

I have installed dry wells and drainage channels to assist the gutters, but IMHO, using them to replace the use of gutters will be inefficient and costly.

[Lee Schierer]

Got an old house and many years ago they installed the forced hot air furnace ductwork through the Attic. House has 2 separte heating systems. 1st floor is boiler heat. 2 nd floor is an apartment. The problem lies in the 2nd floor heating system and how it was layed out. The roof over which the ductwork is situated, is a semi flat roof. and not much clearence between the roof and the ductwork. We insulated the attic with 1 foot of blown in celleous insulation. Had heavy ice hanging from the Gutters on the back roof. Took the Gutters off and just have to occasionaly knock the icicles off the edge of the roof during the Winter.


Your problem that is creating the icicles is heat loss through the roof and/or duct work melting the snow which then freezes when it reaches the cold roof edge. Improper roof venting could be contributing to the problem. If you fix the heat loss problem, not only will your heating bills be less for the apartment, but you will also be able to install gutters and eliminate your wet basement problem.

[Clarence Martin]

All ductwork has been wrapped and ridge vent installed along full width of the roof, plus have 3 roof vents on the flat roof. From what I understand from the previous owners that had the home back in the early 1950's , they had the same problems. What they did was take the gutters down during the Winter and put them back up for the Spring Summer and Fall when there was no snow and ice to deal with clogging the gutters.