Ripping by hand and expectations

[Patrick Harper]

So, I finally finished sharpening a D-8 4 tpi rip saw and decided to take it for a test drive. I put it to use on a 18" long 2x4 and it took me almost exactly 3 minutes for everything. It was definitely cutting straighter/ faster than before, but I just don't know if I could do better. Keep in mind, at I'm a total beginner. So, are there any tests you use to determine whether a saw is cutting quickly enough?

[Jim Koepke]

Patrick,

Welcome to the Creek. Your location is not indicated in your profile. You may live close to another member who may be willing to help in person with your sawing questions.

I found a big toothed rip saw a bit to demanding for myself and have settled on one with 6 ppi. It takes me about 15 minutes to rip a 10' 4/4 piece of ash. With experience you will find yourself working a bit faster.


So, are there any tests you use to determine whether a saw is cutting quickly enough?

This is also a matter of experience. You will feel the saw is tending to roll over the wood instead of cutting into the wood. You will also see a change in the saw dust. A sharp rip saw will tend to make saw dust looking like tiny curls.

jtk

[Patrick Harper]

Jim, thanks a lot for the quick response. I've updated my profile. I'm going to go make another cut and check the dust.

[ray hampton]

Patrick did not say what species of wood it was that he rip

[Patrick Harper]

Ray, it was white pine, construction lumber.

[Patrick Harper]

Now, I have another related question. Where is the best source for Grobet Swiss made files? I purchased my first from Lee Valley, and it's about used up. Is there anywhere I can buy them by the box?

[ray hampton]

Ray, it was white pine, construction lumber.

Is this white pine on the heavy and hard side for pine ?

[Sam Stephens]

time's not a very good indicator of sharpness. Rake angle will easily affect the depth of cut per stroke. so a sharp rip saw with a relaxed rake will cut slower than a more aggressive rake which will be harder to push. I think a better judge is the effort per stroke. a sharp saw takes less effort to push than a dull one. Unfortunately this takes some practice to be comfortable with. dunno about the saw curls. haven't seen those before.

[Jim Koepke]

time's not a very good indicator of sharpness. Rake angle will easily affect the depth of cut per stroke. so a sharp rip saw with a relaxed rake will cut slower than a more aggressive rake which will be harder to push. I think a better judge is the effort per stroke. a sharp saw takes less effort to push than a dull one. Unfortunately this takes some practice to be comfortable with. dunno about the saw curls. haven't seen those before.

Time is relative to the individual, their experience, the saw and the wood being cut. So you are correct, my time has nothing to do with how much time it might take someone else.

We are in agreement on the rake angle's effect.

As to the difference in effort per stroke required for a sharp saw versus a dull saw we may be saying the same thing in a different way. For me, a dull saw is easy to push per stroke, it just doesn't do much work on a stroke by stroke comparison. A dull saw will tend to "roll" over the work. A sharp saw will "dig in" and do the work.

Saw curls often go unnoticed. They are the result of the top of the tooth going with the grain and taking out a shaving. It is like having an infinite number of small blades scrapping or paring in the kerf.

267075

These were made by ripping some soft pine with a 6 ppi rip saw that is getting close to needing a little filing.

They are more like shavings that sometimes curl up. The length of the kerf and the wood being cut will have some effect on their appearance.

jtk

[David Weaver]

You will get faster, I wouldn't worry too much about speed. As far as whether or not the saw is performing well, eventually you will use a saw that has too much rake and one with too little, and you'll be able to tell where your saw falls. For now, you just need experience and working on accuracy and practical use of ripping (as in ripping wood you're actually going to use, starting a bit outside the line and learning how close you can get so that you have little to plane to get to a mark and have a finished board) is more important.

Personally, not a fan of ripping soft 8/4 stuff like 2x4s, it responds different than hardwoods and it has a tendency to cause friction on the saw plate.

[Edward Mitton]

Since I am also new to hand saw ripping, I have a question for you more experienced folks -
What method do you use to make a clean start without the blade skipping around and getting off the cut line?

[David Weaver]

Any of the following three (possibly used in combination):
* draw the saw back against your thumb at a shallow angle -most or entire length of the saw to create a start groove
* start the cut at a shallower angle
* use the toe of the saw with no pressure at the start of the cut (especially if it has rake-relaxed or smaller teeth that are easier to start with)

[Jim Koepke]

What method do you use to make a clean start without the blade skipping around and getting off the cut line?

I am showing my grandson how to saw and one of the things I noticed is my tendency to use the bottom horn of the handle against the side of my hand to lift the blade a touch.

If there is too much set, the saw will tend to jump side to side as each tooth hits and deflects.

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

So, I finally finished sharpening a D-8 4 tpi rip saw and decided to take it for a test drive. I put it to use on a 18" long 2x4 and it took me almost exactly 3 minutes for everything. It was definitely cutting straighter/ faster than before, but I just don't know if I could do better. Keep in mind, at I'm a total beginner. So, are there any tests you use to determine whether a saw is cutting quickly enough?


Hello Patrick and welcome to the Creek!

Congratulations on taking the most important step which is sharpening your first saw!

You've already got lots of good advice here which is right on target.

It sounds to me like you just want to know, having filed/sharpened your first saw, if it's cutting as fast and accurately as it should? Completely understandable. To try and respond your question directly -- 3 minutes to rip an 18" White Pine 2 x 4 with a 4 PPI ripsaw sounds a little slow -- but there are many factors that could account for that.

The suggestions I can offer that might account for your saw cutting a little more slowly than you would like are:

* Use a saw bench or sawhorses that positions the work about the height of your knee. This will allow you to get your body over the cut and make your stroke much more efficient. If you're ripping at a workbench height the work will go much more slowly.

* Lay a straight edge on the tips of the teeth to see if they are all the same height -- the tooth line doesn't have to be straight, in fact it's probably better if it's slightly "breasted" which means the tooth line is a slightly convex curve when addressing the work piece. The important thing is that the apex of the cutting edge of the teeth are the same height as the teeth directly adjacent. If the tooth height is not consistent, then the shorter teeth are doing less/no work in the cut.

* If you are saw has too much set (very common), it will cut more slowly because you're removing more wood with the wider than necessary kerf. Too much set will also allow your saw to wander along the way outline if you're not paying attention. A well set saw should directly track the line it started on with no "steering".

So how much set is the "right amount"? Like many things related woodworking, the answer is it depends on: how much the saw plate is taper ground to be thinner at the top line versus the tooth line (good set of calipers is sufficient, you don't need a micrometer), the wood you're using (more set for softwoods, less set for kiln dried hardwoods). A good rule of thumb for KD hardwoods is that the teeth should be set ~25% wider than the thickest part of the saw plate (which is on the heel along the tooth line). For example, if the widest part of the saw plate is .040", then you want to set the teeth and additional .010" = so the total width at the tooth line is .050".

* As Sam mentioned, rake angle will affect the speed of the cut. Less rake the saw cuts faster and takes a little more practice to start accurately online and with Corser pitch saws (like 4 PPI). Less rake can also make a sawmore likely to "grab" during the stroke, if used incorrectly e.g. applying too much downward pressure.

For example, prior to 1928, Disston's factory rip saw rake angle was 5°, after 1928 they increased it to 8° as fewer of their customers were very experienced sawyers. Some experienced sawyers go with 0° of rake for some applications.

Patrick, hope this helps. Good on you for sharpening your first saw! With a little bit more practice I think you'll find that for hand tool woodworker saw sharpening is a "gateway" skill that will add a lot of satisfaction to your woodworking, in the same way that using sharp planes and chisels do.

All the best, Mike

[Chuck Nickerson]

4 tpi might be a bit coarse for 1-1/2" pine; just might.
My 4 ppi rip is happiest in stock that's 12/4 and up.

[Bill Houghton]

Just to check in, since you're new at this, that you are aware that, once you get the kerf established, you hold the saw up at 60 degrees or so to the surface of the wood - that is, closer to vertical than the 45 degrees commonly used with crosscut saws. This seems counter-intuitive, but it works like you would not believe for speed.

There are a couple of different grips. Your local library may have some hand tool woodworking books*, and, if it does, they may show the two common grips. If not, google "ripping with a hand saw," and see what you find there.

I've never timed any of the cuts I've made, so can't help there.
------------
*I feel, at times on interweb fora, like a broken record, or a digital loop, or something, but, if you haven't exhausted your local library's stock of woodworking books already, you should. Books present information in a more structured way than you can get here. They are not The Answer, but they're part of it. I worked in human resources for 30 years, and I got in the habit, when people came in with questions, say about going on leave, of giving them the handouts and booklets and setting a later appointment for after they'd read the material. I would say, "Your questions will be smarter." Internet fora are tremendous for the kind of question you asked up above, but the books are vital in getting smarter.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with Bill on the subject of books .But around here the better ones are disappearing from the shelves.Commercial book dealers are allowed to search records in public libraries as to how often a book is checked out,declare it obsolete ,put their own price on it ,and take it. Several fine reference books I have used over decades have been lost. The low level of the things that take the empty spots is appalling. Our libraries are mainly homeless shelters.

[Patrick Harper]

Not really, but I'm very new at sawing by hand, and I don't have a saw bench yet. I was working the wood in a vise.

[Patrick Harper]

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I think most of my issue is from poor technique and no proper saw bench. Just started making one, but I'm also learning to 4square by hand as well.

i was really careful to keep make the teeth all the same size and worked a slight breast when I jointed. However, the saw might be a little overset even for cutting softer woods.

[Patrick Harper]

What tooth count would you recommend for pine and 4/4 hardwood boards?

[Jim Koepke]

What tooth count would you recommend for pine and 4/4 hardwood boards?

That depends a lot on the individual sawyer. For me, a saw at 6 ppi with a rake of 8º works fine for both. (I have an old shoulder injury that slows me down)

Just to be clear, ppi is measured different than tpi. 6 ppi is the same as 5 tpi. Points per inch are measured tooth tip to tooth tip. If the starting tooth and the last tooth line up with the inch mark on a ruler, then both of them fall into the number of points per inch. In teeth per inch, the ruler is shifted a hair and counts the full tooth or teeth per inch. Just different ways of saying the same thing.

I filed one saw at 4 ppi with a bit more aggressive rake. It wore me out and wasn't but a few minutes faster over 10' of ripping. The saw plate may have been too light for the aggressiveness as it bound in the cut and snapped. Live and learn.

With a few saws to choose among, my 6 pointer seems to get the bulk of the rip work.

For cross cutting it is a different story. There it depends a lot on the size of the work and the final use. My 10 ppi saw gets a lot of the shop work and my 7 ppi gets a lot of the outside rough work. Bench hook work is mostly cut with a back saw at 13 ppi.

For cutting a railroad tie I have a 5 ppi saw that did pretty well last time it was needed.

jtk

[Tony Shea]

I'd love to find a 4ppi saw in the wild. I've gone over hundreds and hundreds of saws and just haven't come across one yet.

I really have nothing to add to all the great advise already posted other than my preference for tooth counts. I use a 5ppi or 5 1/2 for the majority of my ripping duties. On boards under 3/4" I usually pick up my 7 point rip saw. I personally don't think your 4 is to coarse for sawing 2x4 especially considering that it's softwood that is potentially a little more damp than kiln dried hardwood. There is more of a gullet to carry out the sawdust and keep your blade from binding due to friction.

[Steve Voigt]

I'd love to find a 4ppi saw in the wild. I've gone over hundreds and hundreds of saws and just haven't come across one yet.


Likewise. One idea I've been mulling over: to get a 4 ppi (3 tpi) saw, take a 7 ppi (6 tpi) saw and deeply file every other gullet until the teeth meet up. Might be easier than trying to file new teeth from scratch. Anyone done this?

By the way, notice that the math makes a lot more sense when you think in tpi. That's why tpi roolz. :p

[ray hampton]

Likewise. One idea I've been mulling over: to get a 4 ppi (3 tpi) saw, take a 7 ppi (6 tpi) saw and deeply file every other gullet until the teeth meet up. Might be easier than trying to file new teeth from scratch. Anyone done this?

By the way, notice that the math makes a lot more sense when you think in tpi. That's why tpi roolz. :p

tpi is tooth per inch BUT what is ppi ? :mad:

[Steve Voigt]

tpi is tooth per inch BUT what is ppi ? :mad:

I wish people would read the whole thread before posting. Jim K just answered this question thoroughly.

[Jim Koepke]

tpi is tooth per inch BUT what is ppi ? :mad:

Points per inch.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

To echo some of the essential points made above:

If you need to apply force to keep the saw "down" into the kerf, it may not be sharp enough.
The angle of attack where the tooth line meets the board can be more easily adjusted if you're
above the work - you can shuffle back or forward a little to get the best compromise between
speed and effort. Search for Archaraya Kumarswami's sawbench to see what I use - it has clamping built in.

I find it MUCH easier to saw a board that's held in place than to drop a knee on top.
I'm too short to do that without contortion, and my left knee is ginchy.

I think a sawbench should be high enough that your favorite saw doesn't hit the floor when you go through.

FWIW - I know for a fact that you can saw quite well with boards held vertically on your bench, using handscrews.
It's also easier to keep yourself running straight in that position. The trade off is speed.

Too much board exposed will vibrate, and bounce the teeth out of the kerf.
Too little board exposed and you're constantly adjusting.

Sawbenches are one of those rare shop tools I consider worth making.

[ray hampton]

I wish people would read the whole thread before posting. Jim K just answered this question thoroughly.

how do you know that people do not read all of the posts
I wish that more people had the brains that I got
I forget in a second

[ray hampton]

Points per inch.

jtk

thank you Jim

[Patrick Harper]

Thanks again for the help guys! Just to be clear, this saw is 4tpi and not 4ppi. I think it's either 5 or 5.5ppi. I definitely need a saw bench.

Does anyone know where I can buy Swiss Grobet taper files by the box? The only place I know to get them is from Lee Valley and they are $6.50 for a single 7" regular.

[David Weaver]

Toolsforworkingwood.com has swiss grobets by the box.

[Mike Olson]

Just to check in, since you're new at this, that you are aware that, once you get the kerf established, you hold the saw up at 60 degrees or so to the surface of the wood - that is, closer to vertical than the 45 degrees commonly used with crosscut saws. This seems counter-intuitive, but it works like you would not believe for speed.

What Bill said. This was one of the big Ah HA! moments for me. I started off sawing almost straight down and it was rather hard to push the saw. Once I tilted the saw down it was MUCH easier to push and removed material much faster.

It's like the difference between trying to Plane the face of a board vs across the end grain.

edit: re-read what Bill typed seems to be opposite of what I experienced. he is saying to hold closer to Verticle while I'm noticing holding closer to Horizontal is faster. Perhaps the depth of the tooth has something to do with this? I have a 3PPI so my teeth are very large which would allow the gullies between the teeth to carry more dust out of the kerf.

[Patrick Harper]

They only go up to 7" slim. I'm currently using a 7" regular for 5ppi/4tpi. Would a 7" slim be too small? Thanks again David.

[David Weaver]

You wouldn't get as much life out of it if wearing the sides of the file out is what's causing you to switch.

Once you get into the bigger heavy taper files, they do cost more. LV's price is decent if it's a regular taper file. I believe that for 8" slims or regulars, I paid about $6.80 per for bahcos.

And then accidentally got 8" "heavy" taper off of ebay not believing such a thing existed (thought they'd be regular taper). The bahcos were a good size for saws with teeth like you're talking about.

Anyway, if you like 7" regular taper, that's what I'd get if I were you, the price difference is pretty small.

[george wilson]

Next time I go to the Cabin Fever Expo,I'll see about buying triangular files. There were plenty there last time. I just don't need any.

[Patrick Harper]

I'm not terribly worried about price. It's just that the largest file toolsforworkingwood.com had was the 7" slim. The 7" regular gives you plenty of width for 5ppi. In fact there's a good deal in the center of each side that's never touched. A 7" slim may be wide enough, so that less than half of each edge is used, but I just don't have the experience to know for sure.

[Bill Houghton]

What Bill said. This was one of the big Ah HA! moments for me. I started off sawing almost straight down and it was rather hard to push the saw. Once I tilted the saw down it was MUCH easier to push and removed material much faster.

It's like the difference between trying to Plane the face of a board vs across the end grain.

edit: re-read what Bill typed seems to be opposite of what I experienced. he is saying to hold closer to Verticle while I'm noticing holding closer to Horizontal is faster. Perhaps the depth of the tooth has something to do with this? I have a 3PPI so my teeth are very large which would allow the gullies between the teeth to carry more dust out of the kerf.

The instruction books from the period when rip saws were in common use by your average carpenter all advise holding the saw at about 60 degrees to the face of the board - that is, 2/3 of the way from dead horizontal to dead vertical; while they recommend holding a crosscut saw at about 45 degrees to the face of the board. I find that works for me, with my 5-1/2 tpi rip saw. Your saw, with great big teeth (the better to cut the board with), may well require special treatment.

And, of course, these are guidelines. When I'm cutting, the angles will move around quite a bit. F'rinstance, f I need to get back on the line - not that I ever stray - going down to almost horizontal is the ticket.

[Patrick Harper]

So, I decided my rip saw wasn't as sharp as it could be and also a bit over set. I went back, rejointed and resharpened. I feel the results were much better. The saw cuts much more quickly (about 15 seconds to rip an 18" 2x4), with less effort, and straighter. I think the biggest thing was that the excessive set was requiring too much effort, which resulted in a slow cut that wandered a bit as I tired. The teeth are noticeably sharper now after refining my technique.