PDA

View Full Version : Rough first impressions of LN #5 versus LV #4 1/2



Tony Wilkins
07-23-2013, 1:46 PM
Got my LN #5 yesterday afternoon and got my LV #4 1/2 (BD) on Friday afternoon. This morning was my first chance to set them up and use them in anger on wood. I was quite surprised by what I found. First, the difference in the 'prettiness' of the tool was not as large as what the online pictures would have me believe. The LV ain't a bad lookin' tool.

I'll say it just flat out. I much prefer the LV to the LN. The controls and feel in my hand is much better to me in the LV. So much so that I regret getting the LN. The LN might be a bit better when I open the mouth a bit but even the relative ease in that operation is a selling point for the veritas. I'm seeing where I could do a lot with a couple of extra blades on the 4 1/2.

BTW, also used my Old Street jack in the mix some. It is a lot lighter but I do like the lower hold and overall ergonomics of the metal planes better (especially the LV).

Thoughts on my thoughts and comments welcome.

Bonus question: would it be untoward to see about sending the LN back if I don't bond with it soon and exchanging it for more of their chisels (which I do like)?

Chris Griggs
07-23-2013, 1:55 PM
Bonus question: would it be untoward to see about sending the LN back if I don't bond with it soon and exchanging it for more of their chisels (which I do like)?

I don't like to return tools that I've used. I REALLY don't. BUT...you bought it in good faith with the intention of keeping it, and if you are not satisfied for ANY REASON LN will be happy to take it back. Its hard to decide what constitutes fair use of returns policies like LN/LV/TFWWs. You'll have to decide what you're comfortable with, but FWIW, i think if you bought the tool with the intention of keeping it and it just doesn't vibe with you its totally fine to send it back. That's just kinda par for the course for LN or any company that deals mostly online and through mail order.

Of course, if you want to take some time to really put it through its paces before making a decision, you can use it a while and then just sell it for 85-90% of retail price if at that point it feels wrong to return it.

David Barnett
07-23-2013, 1:55 PM
First, the difference in the 'prettiness' of the tool was not as large as what the online pictures would have me believe. The LV ain't a bad lookin' tool.

I'll say it just flat out. I much prefer the LV to the LN. The controls and feel in my hand is much better to me in the LV. So much so that I regret getting the LN.

While I rather prefer the aesthetics of L-N planes and poke fun at the LV's looks, a lot of thoughtful design went into those LV planes. If I ever buy another non-vintage bevel down plane, it'll likely be a LV.

I feel it's fair to send the L-N back if you've only tried it and found it less to your liking than hoped.

David Weaver
07-23-2013, 1:58 PM
Your last comment is really a matter of opinion. I never return anything unless it falls well short of what it claims to be. In the case of the LN, I would sell it separately, or sell it on ebay and eat the spread in the cost vs. sale.

My wife, on the other hand, wouldn't think a thing of getting five items, picking the one you like the best and turning in 4 if a policy allows.

I think a lot of times makers have to offer the 100% satisfaction guarantee type refund policy because it's demanded by the market, not necessarily because they eat the cost of doing it with a smile.

The LN 5 is a bit of a strange bird, though (in that jacks of all size and shape are very easy to find cheaply, and its attributes in how it differs vs. a common bench plane don't really translate to better use as a jack - e.g., it's flatter, heavier and has a thicker iron - the net effect of all of that is, in my opinion, less desirable for jacking than stock stanley planes). If I refrained from sending it back to LN, I would sell it on ebay as there will still be someone who wants it just because it's lie nielsen.

Up to you, though.

Chris Hachet
07-23-2013, 2:00 PM
This is interesting, as my experience would kind of be the opposite. I am thinking of getting a bevel up jack plane, and am leaning heavily towards the L-N Vs. the L-V.

Adam Cruea
07-23-2013, 2:12 PM
Your last comment is really a matter of opinion. I never return anything unless it falls well short of what it claims to be. In the case of the LN, I would sell it separately, or sell it on ebay and eat the spread in the cost vs. sale.

My wife, on the other hand, wouldn't think a thing of getting five items, picking the one you like the best and turning in 4 if a policy allows.

I think a lot of times makers have to offer the 100% satisfaction guarantee type refund policy because it's demanded by the market, not necessarily because they eat the cost of doing it with a smile.

The LN 5 is a bit of a strange bird, though (in that jacks of all size and shape are very easy to find cheaply, and its attributes in how it differs vs. a common bench plane don't really translate to better use as a jack - e.g., it's flatter, heavier and has a thicker iron - the net effect of all of that is, in my opinion, less desirable for jacking than stock stanley planes). If I refrained from sending it back to LN, I would sell it on ebay as there will still be someone who wants it just because it's lie nielsen.

Up to you, though.

To me, it sounds like the LN #5 jack is more of a smoothing plane than a jack plane.

I mean, to me, a jack plane should be light enough to size down stock, then turn around with possibly another iron/breaker set up and turn it into a decent smoothing plane. I actually have 2 Bailey #5 jacks for this particular reason. One has the stock iron/cb combo and is used for "hogging". The other has a LV A2 iron/cb combo and is used more for smoothing (and leaves one fine surface and pulls up lovely, fluffy curls which look beautiful in QSWO and Hickory).

David Weaver
07-23-2013, 2:16 PM
I think most LN planes get used as smoothing planes, regardless of the size.

The #6 is heavy enough and in the right proportions to use it as a substitute for a panel infill plane, too, which has its virtues (though one of the virtues of the infill planes is not thrift). So long as one remembers in heavy use to push it forward and not to lean on it and create more friction to work through.

David Barnett
07-23-2013, 2:18 PM
This is interesting, as my experience would kind of be the opposite. I am thinking of getting a bevel up jack plane, and am leaning heavily towards the L-N Vs. the L-V.

I have both the L-N LA jack and smoother and like both. An advantage of the LV LA smoother might be its simpler blade adjuster with no need for yoke plates and LV's blade selection.

Tony Wilkins
07-23-2013, 2:24 PM
I think I'll keep it and play with it a bit more. I guess I feel at the heart of it that it's not LN's fault that I don't like it; it is exactly what it is and not defective. Maybe as I get it set up a bit more I'll grow to like it more.

Jim Koepke
07-23-2013, 2:29 PM
I'll say it just flat out. I much prefer the LV to the LN. The controls and feel in my hand is much better to me in the LV. So much so that I regret getting the LN. The LN might be a bit better when I open the mouth a bit but even the relative ease in that operation is a selling point for the veritas. I'm seeing where I could do a lot with a couple of extra blades on the 4 1/2.

A few things come to mind on this.

First would be the height of your bench. A taller bench may favor the LV.

Second would be that these two planes are far apart in use most of the time.

Third the feel of these planes for me is totally different even though mine are all Stanley/Bailey planes. In your situation, you have two very different planes from two very different design styles.

If the design of the Veritas (LV) is much more to your liking than the LN you will likely find that LN would be happy to exchange your purchase for some chisels rather than have someone be less than happy with one of their products.

You may find that giving them a call and explaining your situation will be met with pleasantness and accommodations to your liking.

jtk

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
07-23-2013, 2:45 PM
I've always found that as attractive and professional as Lee Valley's photos are, their planes end up looking more attractive in person than the photos. That's actually a nice change compared to some places in the rest of the world, where the photos are definitely over-re-worked pictures of cherry picked examples, and not representative of what you'll eventually end up with!

I have a LN jack, although it's bevel-up; and have been thinking of picking up a vintage jack to complement it. It works fine enough for roughing work, but like Dave says, the super-flatness and fine mouth are overkill for a plane you're using for rough work, and the extra weight of a modern plane is actually somewhat of a hinderance in rough work where you're slinging it around for a long period of time.

That said, the extra precision does make it amenable to other tasks - it finds a decent amount of use in the shooting board, and for tiny work, which I end up doing more of than I anticipated, I end up reaching for it over the jointer for making things perfectly true, and basically all the jobs you're grab a jointer for for normally sized work.

That said, along the same weight concerns, I'd really love a jointer plane with the precision of a Lie Nielsen, and the weight of my vintage Millers Falls. Jacks I don't find the need for precision, and smoothers aren't hard to tune up to adequate performance as needed, but in my limited experience, jointers are worth the extra money for a nice one. (although I got by for quite some time with a particularly un-ideal jointer) That's one where I find weight a real bother over time. I ended up with a Clifton jointer for a song, and that thing outweights even the LN #7 - I'm beginning to think of turning that one around. I'm thinking a wooden jointer might be the way to go - light weight, and ideally I could keep it in accurate shape if I'm willing to invest the work in tuning it as needed.

Hilton Ralphs
07-23-2013, 3:27 PM
On Saturday at my local hardware store there was this guy demonstrating some sharpening tricks and general hand plane techniques. I've never seen a Lie-Nielsen plane in person and this guy had the no.3 and scrub planes. To be honest, I want really that impressed.

Veritas seems to be steaks ahead in terms of innovation and design. You can see they have actually tried to improve on a design rather than just making it out of expensive materials. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course but when I glanced through the Lie-Nielsen catalogue, nothing really jumped out and said "but me". On the other hand, I permanently have stuff in the Lee Valley cart.

Joe Ruden
07-23-2013, 3:47 PM
On Saturday at my local hardware store there was this guy demonstrating some sharpening tricks and general hand plane techniques. I've never seen a Lie-Nielsen plane in person and this guy had the no.3 and scrub planes. To be honest, I want really that impressed.


I wish there were hardware stores like that around here.

bob blakeborough
07-23-2013, 4:13 PM
I have an LV BU Smoother and it is my favourite plane bar none! I even went as far as buying a bronze #3 LN a while back after being convinced that I would really love the BD planes once I tried them, and while it is a very nice, cool looking tool that is also very well built, I find the LV BUS to be a much nicer plane to use and I get a nicer job with less fuss. I am not knocking LN at all, but I too was a bit shocked I found such a difference. That said, I still like the LN, but I do find myself almost always reaching for the BUS over the #3 when the situation calls...

I also think once you get used to making one tool work for your needs, it is hard to switch to another so that may have a lot to do with preferences...

Tony Wilkins
07-23-2013, 4:22 PM
Thank for all the input. I decided to throw caution to the wind and just call them. They agreed to take the plane back after I told them the situation. I'm going to exchange it for a full set of chisels and buy some DVD's along the way.

I hadn't used the LV any more than the LN but it was just so much easier to set up and seemed to just fit me first go. I was even using it with mouth wide open and fairly thick cut ala jack plane.

David Barnett
07-23-2013, 4:57 PM
That's great, Tony—glad it worked out for you.

Winton Applegate
07-23-2013, 5:04 PM
I never let that stop me. Often I see it as a call to duty actually.
I would recommend the miter plane (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=9) orrrrrrr . . . if you really want to get wild and crazy the No. 51 Shooting Board plane (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1498).

glenn bradley
07-23-2013, 5:13 PM
Hand tools are fairly personal in that we are all built different, stand differently at different benches of differing heights, etc. It may be the geek in me but, I too favor the adjustment and retention mechanisms on the Lee Valley planes. The Lie Nielsen planes do sport that traditional look and are things of beauty, no doubt. I was lucky enough to catch a show where their booths were kitty-corner from each other and so got to go back and forth, trying out each maker's offerings for comfort before making a decision on a couple of items.

Both LN and LV are top notch outfits that stand behind their products and want you to be happy. The fact that you returned the plane for other product is of mutual benefit. Enjoy your new toyls and thanks for reporting your thoughts.

Winton Applegate
07-23-2013, 5:17 PM
In other words : It is hard to kill a horse with a flute.
:)

David B.,

Bussin" out witt the haiku
judging by the "attempted murder" line should we be concerned about you ?

Where did you get that gun ? You drew it so fast !
Wait !
No !
I didn't know she was Your girl !
. . .

Chris Griggs
07-23-2013, 5:29 PM
Thank for all the input. I decided to throw caution to the wind and just call them. They agreed to take the plane back after I told them the situation. I'm going to exchange it for a full set of chisels and buy some DVD's along the way.

I hadn't used the LV any more than the LN but it was just so much easier to set up and seemed to just fit me first go. I was even using it with mouth wide open and fairly thick cut ala jack plane.

Great Tony. Glad it worked out. Have fun with those chisels. I think that's a better use of that cash...5's are so plentiful and besides you already have that awesome Old Street Jack. Now the trick is to find you a suitable jointer plane...(well and then there's the handsaws, but that's a whole other can of worms)

Jim Koepke
07-23-2013, 6:02 PM
Bussin" out witt the haiku
judging by the "attempted murder" line should we be concerned about you ?

"A murder of crows" is the collective noun for a group of crows.

So two crows trying to get an accumulation of crows might be considered "attempted murder" (of crows).

jtk

Charlie Stanford
07-23-2013, 6:17 PM
Got my LN #5 yesterday afternoon and got my LV #4 1/2 (BD) on Friday afternoon. This morning was my first chance to set them up and use them in anger on wood. I was quite surprised by what I found. First, the difference in the 'prettiness' of the tool was not as large as what the online pictures would have me believe. The LV ain't a bad lookin' tool.

I'll say it just flat out. I much prefer the LV to the LN. The controls and feel in my hand is much better to me in the LV. So much so that I regret getting the LN. The LN might be a bit better when I open the mouth a bit but even the relative ease in that operation is a selling point for the veritas. I'm seeing where I could do a lot with a couple of extra blades on the 4 1/2.

BTW, also used my Old Street jack in the mix some. It is a lot lighter but I do like the lower hold and overall ergonomics of the metal planes better (especially the LV).

Thoughts on my thoughts and comments welcome.

Bonus question: would it be untoward to see about sending the LN back if I don't bond with it soon and exchanging it for more of their chisels (which I do like)?

Tony, come on. A narrow jack vs. a wide-bodied smoother? With all due respect, are you joking? This is apples-to-oranges regardless of brand differences.

Tony Wilkins
07-23-2013, 7:35 PM
I do realize that they are designed for different purposes Charlie. However, the control layout would be the same on the LV 5 1/4 with the same effect. I assume to that the tote comfort would be the same. And even though the 4 1/2 is primarily a smoother I was surprised how easily I could open the mouth and take a deeper cut (even without a cambered blade). I guess the long and the short of it is I preferred the design of the LV in areas where they would overlap and not be specifically for a certain purpose.

Jim Koepke
07-23-2013, 7:50 PM
I do realize that they are designed for different purposes Charlie. However, the control layout would be the same on the LV 5 1/4 with the same effect. I assume to that the tote comfort would be the same.

This is why in the past it has often been suggested that if at all possible to try planes from different makers before spending one's money. When it comes to bench planes they will likely be pretty much the same though out a single maker's line.

Finding one LV plane comfortable with the controls to his liking, Tony is likely to find the others in the line to his liking. Just as finding an LN plane doesn't quite cut it for him, he is likely to not be overjoyed by the same thing in a different size.

For me, the Stanley/Bailey line feels good in my hands. The only real difference is the early totes have a bit more wood. For me, the totes from the type 9 era are to my liking.

jtk

Adam Cruea
07-23-2013, 9:48 PM
I never let that stop me. Often I see it as a call to duty actually.
I would recommend the miter plane (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=9) orrrrrrr . . . if you really want to get wild and crazy the No. 51 Shooting Board plane (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1498).

Hey, for a splurge buy, to me the No. 51 was well worth it.

I <3 my shooting plane. It got me off my butt to build a shooting board out of the spare hickory and scrap jatoba I have lying around. And it works beautifully. I just need to drill a hole to do mitres.

Chris Vandiver
07-24-2013, 1:00 AM
Tony, come on. A narrow jack vs. a wide-bodied smoother? With all due respect, are you joking? This is apples-to-oranges regardless of brand differences.

I agree with Charles. The original post seemed like some sort of weird trolling to me.

Charlie Stanford
07-24-2013, 6:14 AM
Got my LN #5 yesterday afternoon and got my LV #4 1/2 (BD) on Friday afternoon. This morning was my first chance to set them up and use them in anger on wood. I was quite surprised by what I found. First, the difference in the 'prettiness' of the tool was not as large as what the online pictures would have me believe. The LV ain't a bad lookin' tool.

I'll say it just flat out. I much prefer the LV to the LN. The controls and feel in my hand is much better to me in the LV. So much so that I regret getting the LN. The LN might be a bit better when I open the mouth a bit but even the relative ease in that operation is a selling point for the veritas. I'm seeing where I could do a lot with a couple of extra blades on the 4 1/2.

BTW, also used my Old Street jack in the mix some. It is a lot lighter but I do like the lower hold and overall ergonomics of the metal planes better (especially the LV).

Thoughts on my thoughts and comments welcome.

Bonus question: would it be untoward to see about sending the LN back if I don't bond with it soon and exchanging it for more of their chisels (which I do like)?

By the way, you went from a "rough first impression" in the title of the thread to a "flat out" conclusion by your second paragraph. Please, put the Tiger Beat magazines down for a day or two. Seriously, take a deep breath. Maybe you feel the window to ask for an exchange is closing. Really, that whole aspect of it will be less tawdry if you make a more informed comparison over a few more days. If you end up liking the L-V set up more that's cool. They make nice planes. At the moment, it seems like you can't make up your mind about going to the prom with the captain of the football team or the star of the basketball squad or you wouldn't have even started the thread. The Lie-Nielsen plane would have already been sent packing.

It's clear that you have a budget for the hobby worth working with: Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen, Old Street (must have ordered that one a while ago, eh?) I assume (hope) your lumber stocks are equally drool worthy. Knock out a little box or something and if your mind doesn't change during the build THEN send the L-N plane back.

You appear to own two jack planes - the LV and woodie from Old Street, and a 4 1/2, at least at the moment. This is a bit of an odd grouping. What others do you have? What did you need from the metal jack that the Old Street tool wasn't able to deliver?

David Weaver
07-24-2013, 6:45 AM
If you exchanged the ln #5 for chisels, that's not a bad move. You can find a decent vintage jack plane for 20 or 30 bucks. Just use the chisels and ignore magazine and blog articles about chisels after you get them and form your own opinion.

Charlie's point about lumber is a good one, though. Find a decent local sawyer if you can so you can get respectably sawn wood from the same tree and still pay half of a retailers charges for stacks of common low density garbage, and do a search on craigslist for "lumber" or "rough" lumber and treat yourself to inexpensive quality lumber.

Tony Wilkins
07-24-2013, 9:29 AM
Regarding lumber. I've got some walnut and cherry I got from a local sawyer before we moved in December. I also ordered some 8/4 walnut from wall once I got here for the table legs I'm working on. Haven't found a good local source for lumber here yet but we'll move again soon when I retire and I know a good place back home. Probably will order some maple for a moxon vise to help me with work holding before I move though.

Charlie, you are correct that I did feel I needed to make a decision on the plane sooner rather than later. I didn't want to use it heavily and then return it. Can you tone down the tenor of your comments though. I'm not trolling just looking for more sage advice. I've literally been waiting to do this hobby since being a teenager but never had the time/money; now I have a bit of both but still want to be wise. Perhaps I'm thinking of it too much, but I also want to find what works best with the limited abilities (physical) that I have now to maximize my enjoyment and productivity.

Hilton Ralphs
07-24-2013, 9:35 AM
Tony, out of interest, what other hand planes do you have?

Chris Hachet
07-24-2013, 10:04 AM
I have both the L-N LA jack and smoother and like both. An advantage of the LV LA smoother might be its simpler blade adjuster with no need for yoke plates and LV's blade selection.The new PMV 111 steel in the blades would certainly work in favor of the L-V/Veritas plane, now wouldn't it....hmmm....I may have to think about this one....

Chris Hachet
07-24-2013, 10:06 AM
The LN 5 is a bit of a strange bird, though (in that jacks of all size and shape are very easy to find cheaply, and its attributes in how it differs vs. a common bench plane don't really translate to better use as a jack - e.g., it's flatter, heavier and has a thicker iron - the net effect of all of that is, in my opinion, less desirable for jacking than stock stanley planes). If I refrained from sending it back to LN, I would sell it on ebay as there will still be someone who wants it just because it's lie nielsen.

Interesting, I almost had the same thought after using a friend's L-N #5....I've used the same Vintage Stanley for the last 25 years or so, and its done fine as a Jack plane...The L-N plane I really lust after is the 5 and 1/4 "Junior Jack" as I think it would be nice as a small jointer. Since I tend to build stuff a little on the smaller side, and since I use my regular #5 Stanley to Joint with, and Jack with....a 5 and 1/4 might do nicely for me at some point.

Chris Hachet
07-24-2013, 10:08 AM
I've always found that as attractive and professional as Lee Valley's photos are, their planes end up looking more attractive in person than the photos. That's actually a nice change compared to some places in the rest of the world, where the photos are definitely over-re-worked pictures of cherry picked examples, and not representative of what you'll eventually end up with!

I have a LN jack, although it's bevel-up; and have been thinking of picking up a vintage jack to complement it. It works fine enough for roughing work, but like Dave says, the super-flatness and fine mouth are overkill for a plane you're using for rough work, and the extra weight of a modern plane is actually somewhat of a hinderance in rough work where you're slinging it around for a long period of time.

That said, the extra precision does make it amenable to other tasks - it finds a decent amount of use in the shooting board, and for tiny work, which I end up doing more of than I anticipated, I end up reaching for it over the jointer for making things perfectly true, and basically all the jobs you're grab a jointer for for normally sized work.

That said, along the same weight concerns, I'd really love a jointer plane with the precision of a Lie Nielsen, and the weight of my vintage Millers Falls. Jacks I don't find the need for precision, and smoothers aren't hard to tune up to adequate performance as needed, but in my limited experience, jointers are worth the extra money for a nice one. (although I got by for quite some time with a particularly un-ideal jointer) That's one where I find weight a real bother over time. I ended up with a Clifton jointer for a song, and that thing outweights even the LN #7 - I'm beginning to think of turning that one around. I'm thinking a wooden jointer might be the way to go - light weight, and ideally I could keep it in accurate shape if I'm willing to invest the work in tuning it as needed.I am actually thinking of getting an ECE wooden Jointer as I like your idea of a lighter Jointer plane...and a plus one to a lighter, cruder Jack plane in the form of a Stanley.

Chris Hachet
07-24-2013, 10:10 AM
I have an LV BU Smoother and it is my favourite plane bar none! I even went as far as buying a bronze #3 LN a while back after being convinced that I would really love the BD planes once I tried them, and while it is a very nice, cool looking tool that is also very well built, I find the LV BUS to be a much nicer plane to use and I get a nicer job with less fuss. I am not knocking LN at all, but I too was a bit shocked I found such a difference. That said, I still like the LN, but I do find myself almost always reaching for the BUS over the #3 when the situation calls...

I also think once you get used to making one tool work for your needs, it is hard to switch to another so that may have a lot to do with preferences...Swarz idea of plane monogamy rears its head....hmmm....another vote for the L-V...I'll have to think about this one. And also, a plus one for the L-V 3 Bronze...its on my bucket list.

Chris Hachet
07-24-2013, 10:11 AM
Thank for all the input. I decided to throw caution to the wind and just call them. They agreed to take the plane back after I told them the situation. I'm going to exchange it for a full set of chisels and buy some DVD's along the way.

I hadn't used the LV any more than the LN but it was just so much easier to set up and seemed to just fit me first go. I was even using it with mouth wide open and fairly thick cut ala jack plane. Like David, I am glad it worked out for you...and also glad you enjoy the LN Chisels...I love them....

Chris Hachet
07-24-2013, 10:12 AM
If you exchanged the ln #5 for chisels, that's not a bad move. You can find a decent vintage jack plane for 20 or 30 bucks. Just use the chisels and ignore magazine and blog articles about chisels after you get them and form your own opinion.

Charlie's point about lumber is a good one, though. Find a decent local sawyer if you can so you can get respectably sawn wood from the same tree and still pay half of a retailers charges for stacks of common low density garbage, and do a search on craigslist for "lumber" or "rough" lumber and treat yourself to inexpensive quality lumber....also...talk to other wood workers. I've got some stuff from some old growth trees that has been sitting since the 1930's another woodworker is offering to sell me.

Tony Wilkins
07-24-2013, 10:50 AM
Ralph, I have a couple of old street planes - smoother and jack. I also have an Ohio tools wooden try. I thought I was set with these but found I had trouble holding the front in use. I have a union #5 with a tote that was damaged in shipping (threaded rod won't screw down) that I found much more comfortable to use and started me looking.

Tony Wilkins
07-24-2013, 11:03 AM
Another thought to add to my confusion; when I called they suggested I try a low angle jack (#62)? I know we talked about it a little before but...

Hilton Ralphs
07-24-2013, 11:12 AM
Another thought to add to my confusion; when I called they suggested I try a low angle jack (#62)? I know we talked about it a little before but...

The Veritas is better though. It has those nice set screws in the side to keep the blade centred and to retain the setting when you take out the blade for sharpening.

Tony Wilkins
07-24-2013, 11:16 AM
That's what I keep coming back to. LV just seems to have a better grasp of the small things that make it more enjoyable for me.

I order an extra blade for the 4 1/2 to grind with a camber.

Jim Koepke
07-24-2013, 12:10 PM
That's what I keep coming back to. LV just seems to have a better grasp of the small things that make it more enjoyable for me.

LV is creating revolutionary innovations in plane design.

LN is making replicas of Stanley planes at a higher quality than Stanley ever considered.

They are both making very fine tools for different markets.

My LN #62 works great in my shop, even with the need to occasionally tap the side of the blade with a small mallet.

jtk

Shawn Pixley
07-25-2013, 12:13 AM
The Veritas is better though. It has those nice set screws in the side to keep the blade centred and to retain the setting when you take out the blade for sharpening.

This whole discussion seems rather subjective. Better for you is not better for me. I love the LV products especially the router plane and chisels. On the other hand, I really dislike the totes on the LV planes. For my hands, the LN totes are far more comfortable.

On the other hand, to me a difference in a jack plane is relatively unimportant. Stanleys or others do fine for me. Smoothers, on the other hand, I use a a precision instrument (one might legitimately argue that my skills are not commensurate to the instrument). I care far more there (he says having three smoothers - (1) LN with standard frog, (1) with HAF or gnarly grain, & an old Stanley type 11, #4.

Winton Applegate
07-25-2013, 12:36 AM
Hilton,

Either you have a "unique" style all your own or you need to turn off your automatic sub spell checker.
Makes for some entertaining reading from our angle though.
:)

(maybe you shouldn't turn it off)

I agree with you though.

Winton Applegate
07-25-2013, 1:05 AM
I really dislike the totes on the LV planes

You are right of coarse that every body has to judge for them selves . . . how ever . . .

Do you own any of the LV planes ?
The reason I ask is BEFORE I bought and used an LV long term I thought the totes on LVs were plane Jane and they just cut corners.
AFTER
I spent a great deal of time on both LN and LV I can "testify" (he said quaking and eyes rolling heavenwards palm out stretched; fervor on his lips)

The LVs ain't bad. Better than pretty good, they are fine FOR ME and actually the LN bevel up jack's beautifully curvaceous and larger handle hurts my palm with a chronic bruising that I finally had to adapt to.

For any one on the fence I would recommend buying at least one LV and giving it heck for a few weeks before writing them off.

PS: photos are of my LV BU large finish plane. LOVE THAT PLANE.
I made this bubbinga table in my shop, moved it up stairs into the living space and it changed enough I had to re flatten it before finish planing it. I planed on finish planing it after I moved it because it is so heavy I figured I would mar it up a bit just moving it. Anyway LVBU and I have spent quite a bit of time together.
Pretty much not going to put more force through the handle than on this extra hard sheee . . . wood. (whoa almost lost another point there).

PPS: David W and David B,
This here's what "real" sharpening looks like boys.
:cool::D

Hilton Ralphs
07-25-2013, 4:25 AM
On the other hand, I really dislike the totes on the LV planes. For my hands, the LN totes are far more comfortable.

This does seem to be a trend strangely enough. Although nothing like a rasp to fix the shape of the tote hey? It seems infinitely easier than trying to retrofit another brand of plane with the niceties that Veritas throws in. They even give you free templates to show you where to correctly drill the appropriate holes for the mounting bolts. Nothing stops you modifying the overall shape after that.

Hilton Ralphs
07-25-2013, 4:39 AM
Hilton,
Either you have a "unique" style all your own or you need to turn off your automatic sub spell checker.
Makes for some entertaining reading from our angle though.

Winton, you'll have to point to where my spell checker failed (or not).

Chris Griggs
07-25-2013, 6:26 AM
Another thought to add to my confusion; when I called they suggested I try a low angle jack (#62)? I know we talked about it a little before but...

LA jacks are nice to have around but I don't view them as essential tools. They work nice as large smoothers/panel planes for those who prefer to use BU planes with various angles vs. BD planes with chipbreakers. Just like a regular jack they work for small jointing tasks too. My (and I think many peoples) sees 95-99% of its use as a shooting plane....to me that's their bread and butter, as they are much easier for me to grip on their side since there is no frog in the way. Anyway, nice tools to have, and potentially a good choice for someone who wants a minimal number of planes, but again, I don't think they are the end all be all planes that they've been made out to be. If you do get one though, consider what you want it too do. The LV (which I have) and the LN (which I've used side by side with my LV in a friends shop) are fairly different planes. The LN is a lighter more nimble plane, very comfortable and just all around handy feeling. While the LV has some serious heft, and set back mouth. It feels more like a small jointer/heavy panel plane. Since I mostly use mine for shooting and jointing short boards, the LV was no question, the right way to go for me,BUT if my intent was to use it as more of an all-around trimmer, smoother, occasional jointer, at my bench for everything plane, I'd probably think the LN was a better choice. Don't want to overemphasize their differences. They do all the same things well, but as you'd expect the bigger LV really feels a bit better suited for the bigger tasks and the lighter LN feels a bit better suited for smaller end of the LA jack task spectrum. Anyway, point is they have fairly different feels, so think about what you would want to use it for and if possible try to get your hands on one or both.

BUT really, I would consider other things before an LA jack. I've been watching you try to decide what tools to get over the past couple months and from what I can gather what you are really missing is a long plane. You have your Old Street jack, so you are set for coarse work, and if you prefer a Bailey for coarse, you likely won't have too hard a time finding a good vintage No. 5 for under $40. You have you LV 4 1/2 so you have a very good smoother...you may find yourself wanting a smaller smoother as well someday, but what you have will be able to put a finished surface on just about anything. What's missing is a long plane (which BTW, can double as a shooter). I know you are concerned about weight so consider the fact the the BU jointers are substantially lighter than their BD brethern. OR consider a No.6 (I would give up my LA jack much quicker than my 6). They are fantastically sized planes and really if most of what you want to build is made from pieces under 4 ft in length you will not find them lacking in any way. Given what you found you like, my advice to you would actually be to consider the LV no. 6 because A) you already know you like the feel and adjustments of the LVs and B) its listed at 6 3/4lbs as compared to LN/WR/Clifton 6's that are 7 1/2 lbs or more. Keep in mind I have NEVER used the LV 6 or any LV BD bench plane. This recommendation is based solely on the hole I see in your aresenal and what you have decided/told us you like. If you want something longer than a 6, again the BU varieties may be a worthy consideration. Both the LN and LV BU jointers are listed at about 7 1/2 lbs where as the LN BD no 7 is listed at 8 1/4.

Just more food for thought (or maybe more confusion:))

Bill Haumann
07-25-2013, 7:56 AM
BTW, also used my Old Street jack in the mix some. It is a lot lighter but I do like the lower hold and overall ergonomics of the metal planes better (especially the LV).

I would happily take that Old Street jack with too high hold off your hands for you. :D
I'm a glutton for punishment.

Tony Wilkins
07-25-2013, 9:56 AM
Chris, your read on the situation is quite correct. I've actually been seriously eyeing both the LV BU jointer and the LV #6 (especially since it would share a blade with the 4 1/2). I've been using the OS jack as a small jointer and that's actually found the best use for it for me. I do have the Ohio jointer but I've found it unwieldy for me.

Jim Koepke
07-25-2013, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Shawn Pixley
On the other hand, I really dislike the totes on the LV planes. For my hands, the LN totes are far more comfortable.


This does seem to be a trend strangely enough.

My curiosity has me wondering if this may be due to bench height. Wasn't there a discussion of this recently?

Many of my plane's totes have been treated to a treatment from Mr. Raspy.

jtk

David Weaver
07-25-2013, 12:15 PM
it's almost certain to be a bench height issue. The LV BU planes make my wrists ache just thinking about doing a lot of work with them. Not so much a problem for a couple of smoother swipes, but more than that...been there and done that and I can still remember the bone deep soreness.

David Barnett
07-25-2013, 12:16 PM
My curiosity has me wondering if this may be due to bench height. Wasn't there a discussion of this recently?

Yes, Derek spoke about this (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205123-New-Tote-for-Veritas-Low-Angle-Jack&p=2128823#post2128823).

Peter Pedisich
07-25-2013, 2:03 PM
I have also read about the Veritas totes being better suited to higher benchtops, but my benchtop is 35" and I'm 5'-10" and the tote on my LV LAJ made my hand sore whenever I would use it for 10+ minutes at a time. I love the plane - finely made and easy to adjust, but the handle was completely wrong for me. I decided the plane was certainly worth an upgrade and my Bill Rittner tote/knob set will be ready next week! Having said that, I still very much prefer the look of LN planes in most of the models. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder - my wife chose me after all! - and the newer LV Veritas planes like the block and jack rabbit are beautiful as well as functional, and made to a very high standard. -Pete

Bryan Robinson
07-25-2013, 9:03 PM
I bought the LV bevel up smoother and I don't like it and will be selling it on Ebay soon. I have the LN #3 with HAF and I love it. The LV just doesn't feel right, but it is a really well made plane and I can see why people like it. The LN just fits my hand and feels really good and performs really well.

Tony Wilkins
07-25-2013, 9:18 PM
I was planning on keeping the Old Street Jack but I tried it today and I might end up sending it on it's way to someone who will love it. I went out and played with the LN one last time just to be sure and it hurts my hand. Could be my bench (which is a 36" tall commercial bench I got to work on car stuff with) but it's what I got till after I move -- don't want to build a bench and then turn it over to the Army movers (plus the weight when on a weight limit).

Peter Pedisich
07-25-2013, 9:46 PM
Tony, with Old Street Tools currently not taking any new customers, you're sure to find a buyer at a close to new price, giving you funds to buy the LV Skew Rabbet plane! Or a nice stash of Walnut, Cherry, or White Oak.

Winton Applegate
07-25-2013, 11:00 PM
The LV BU planes make my wrists ache just thinking about doing a lot of work with them. Not so much a problem for a couple of smoother swipes, but more than that...been there and done that and I can still remember the bone deep soreness.
:rolleyes:
I'm tellin' yah . . .
I don't have that problem.
You got to finish sharpening them blades.
Don't skip all those important middle grit stones.
:D
Then your planes will just glide through the wood.
You'll be choked by all the wood ribbons flying up in your face but at least your wrists will be happy.
:):):)

Winton Applegate
07-25-2013, 11:38 PM
My Klausz bench is the perfect hight for me to do heavy hand tool woodworking including scrub planing the bubbinga table I posted earlier.
. . . annnnnnnnnd . . .
it is 28 inches from the floor to the table top. I am 5' 8-1/2"
One reason I may get along with the LV totes where especially David W. does not (besides the sharpening thing :D) is that I have smallish hands.


about the Veritas totes being better suited to higher bench tops, but my bench top is 35" and I'm 5'-10"

another theory out the window or maybe people who are having trouble just need to get small hand transplants.

I have many other benches for various kinds of work so I don't break my back when I want more hight. I just use a different bench.
I love to spoil myself
and being a long distance cyclist and hand tool wood worker primarily I am an ergonomics fanatic; I mean why not be comfortable and not wear my self out. The base of my Klausz bench is still in the experiment and see/non finalized stage so if I had wanted it higher I would simply have modified the contraption under it and upsidaisy.

I can really get my legs into the plane strokes with such a low bench and when I throw a 10 or 12 inch wide plank on top to do some easier edge jointing it is still at a do able hight and I don't have to put the board on the front of the bench on a bench slave.
Low benches, for Neander, for ever.

Tony Wilkins
07-26-2013, 12:47 AM
My Klausz bench is the perfect hight for me to do heavy hand tool woodworking including scrub planing the bubbinga table I posted earlier.
. . . annnnnnnnnd . . .
it is 28 inches from the floor to the table top. I am 5' 8-1/2"
One reason I may get along with the LV totes where especially David W. does not (besides the sharpening thing :D) is that I have smallish hands.



another theory out the window or maybe people who are having trouble just need to get small hand transplants.

We might be twins. The height and the hands sounds familiar. My only freakish addition is that I have relatively long fingers to go with those smaller (read narrower) hands.

Winton Applegate
07-26-2013, 1:41 AM
Hilton,

Veritas seems to be steaks ahead in terms of innovation and design. You can see they have actually tried to improve on a design rather than just making it out of expensive materials. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course but when I glanced through the Lie-Nielsen catalogue, nothing really jumped out and said "but me". On the other hand, I permanently have stuff in the Lee Valley cart.

I like steak but I am not too clear on the "but me".
Or both. I don't really get both of those.

Winton Applegate
07-26-2013, 2:08 AM
Tony,


we might be twins

We are in good company. Bruce Lee was the same exact height and weight that I was most of my life; until I "blossomed" into the couch sittin' key board pownding marvel of non activity you see before you.

Mr. tiny hands was able to one inch punch an "assistant" so hard he would be lifted off his feet and propelled backward several feet through the air, land in a chair and flip over backwards. It wasn't "an act" even with the chest pad the assistants never wanted to be involved a second time.

In the famous Tour De France bike race, that is celebrating it's 100th year, the best mountain road stage winners have been our build. No body can keep up with them in the steep up hill mountain stages. Mr. muscles and Mr. tall dark and handsome are off the back. I'm a climber, on the bike, so I know what that feels like. It feels goooooood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucien_Van_Impe

Hilton Ralphs
07-26-2013, 2:22 AM
Hilton,
I like steak but I am not too clear on the "but me".
Or both. I don't really get both of those.

Good grief!

I remember now that I posted that reply on my 'droid tablet using the SWYPE keyboard and it's super sensitive (and irritating at the same time). Thanks for pointing this out.

Jim Koepke
07-26-2013, 3:16 AM
Could be my bench (which is a 36" tall commercial bench

A taller bench favors the LV.

jtk

Chris Hachet
07-26-2013, 10:00 AM
My curiosity has me wondering if this may be due to bench height. Wasn't there a discussion of this recently?

Many of my plane's totes have been treated to a treatment from Mr. Raspy.

jtkthis is something I have noticed with the LN stuff, I like how it fits my hands when I am working with it.

Chris Hachet
07-26-2013, 10:05 AM
I was planning on keeping the Old Street Jack but I tried it today and I might end up sending it on it's way to someone who will love it. I went out and played with the LN one last time just to be sure and it hurts my hand. Could be my bench (which is a 36" tall commercial bench I got to work on car stuff with) but it's what I got till after I move -- don't want to build a bench and then turn it over to the Army movers (plus the weight when on a weight limit).
Interesting that so few people seem to love wooden planes...I find them fantastic, myself.

Shawn Pixley
07-26-2013, 10:06 AM
You are right of coarse that every body has to judge for them selves . . . how ever . . .

Do you own any of the LV planes ?
:cool::D

I did own a LV plane. It was a fine plane, but I sold it because I disliked the tote.

Jim Koepke
07-26-2013, 12:08 PM
this is something I have noticed with the LN stuff, I like how it fits my hands when I am working with it.

This is possibly the best reason to try and hold, use and get a feel of our tools before committing to their purchase.

We all have different size hands and different "hand memory" we have formed over the years.

For me the comfort of using my tools is as important as other aspects of the tool.

With chisels this was my main reason for acquiring a lathe and mostly buying only socket chisels.

jtk

Chris Griggs
07-26-2013, 12:25 PM
One thing I've found with the LV totes is that the difficulty comes in when switching between them and a stanley/LN/similar. When I (6'2") use only my LV LA jack for an extended period on my lowish (~34") bench (which admittedly isn't all that often), I find the my grip and arm positioning naturally adjust...I tend to drop my elbow and push more from behind and once I do I don't have issues. Where I have comfort problems is if I'm using my vintage planes heavily with less upright totes, and then I switch to LV and use it somewhat heavily, as my body will have fallen into a grip where my elbow is higher so when I then grab the LV plane I initially with cock my wrist which is what causes discomfort. I've found that if I consciously adjust my arm positioning when I pick up the LV plane I don't really have any issues.

I still prefer the less upright totes, no question, but I can totally see how someone (even someone w/o a particularly high bench) would be fine if they had all LV bench planes, as they would likely develop/adapt a grip/arm position that is comfortable with the tote angle.

Norb Schmidt
07-26-2013, 3:07 PM
If you want to sell the OS Jack, I'm interested.....and yes, I'd love it (have a smoother and a Try - NEED the Jack...)

Winton Applegate
07-26-2013, 11:41 PM
I did own a LV plane

Shawn,

Which one ?
It's OK, we are alone now, everyone else went home. No one will hear . . .
. . . which one was it ?

Chris Fournier
07-27-2013, 7:33 PM
To me, it sounds like the LN #5 jack is more of a smoothing plane than a jack plane.

I mean, to me, a jack plane should be light enough to size down stock, then turn around with possibly another iron/breaker set up and turn it into a decent smoothing plane. I actually have 2 Bailey #5 jacks for this particular reason. One has the stock iron/cb combo and is used for "hogging". The other has a LV A2 iron/cb combo and is used more for smoothing (and leaves one fine surface and pulls up lovely, fluffy curls which look beautiful in QSWO and Hickory).

This thread is a bit ridiculous. #5s have been around forever, it's a jack plane, your thoughts about it are a bit late in the game, they've been around forever! Why compare a 4 1/2 to a 5 from different manufacturers? This is two questions posed as one. The only useful answer(s) would be that a #5 can do both jointing and smoothing okay while a 4 1/2 is a smoother and that beauty is in he eye of the beholder; LNs are beautiful to this beholder and their function is beyond reproach.

Adam Cruea
07-27-2013, 9:46 PM
This thread is a bit ridiculous. #5s have been around forever, it's a jack plane, your thoughts about it are a bit late in the game, they've been around forever! Why compare a 4 1/2 to a 5 from different manufacturers? This is two questions posed as one. The only useful answer(s) would be that a #5 can do both jointing and smoothing okay while a 4 1/2 is a smoother and that beauty is in he eye of the beholder; LNs are beautiful to this beholder and their function is beyond reproach.

I wasn't the one that compared the 4 1/2 and a 5. :-\

And here I thought our Canadian neighbors were supposed to be nice. :(

Tony Wilkins
07-27-2013, 10:41 PM
I wasn't the one that compared the 4 1/2 and a 5. :-\

And here I thought our Canadian neighbors were supposed to be nice. :(

No I was and just for the handle and controls. I've been trying to be good and not comment.

Adam Cruea
07-28-2013, 12:23 AM
No I was and just for the handle and controls. I've been trying to be good and not comment.

I'm not egging you on, but why not? You're a person and you have an opinion. No one can tell you whether your opinion is right or wrong when it comes to personal preferences.

I personally believe LN's stuff is more aimed at traditional woodworkers, whereas Lee Valley has grabbed the hobbyist market. Hobbyists, in my opinion, want a plane that works with minimal tinkering, whereas traditional woodworkers have no issue with fine adjustment and just see it as part of the craft. That's my personal opinion, though, and I came to that conclusion when I saw the fences Lee Valley offers for some of their hand planes (the BU jointer comes to mind), whereas LN doesn't offer a fence. I literally thought "wow, that would be so much faster for jointing, but it seems to make mastery of the craft inconsequential."

When it comes down to it, though, you have to do what you need to do to enjoy the hobby and/or craft, however you view it. You're the one using the tools, so forget what other people say about "you're comparing a 4 1/2 and a 5? *GASP* BLASPHEMY!"

Little secret, Tony. . .I've used a Bailey #8 to smooth with. It was my *benchtop*, but I still used it to take very, very fine shavings and smooth down the top. I've used a #4 smoother as a jack plane before; I was working on a pencil cup for my wife that was about 3 inches wide and 6 inches tall. What's the point of using a #5 to rough that when all I need to do is adjust the blade to flip from roughing to smoothing? Oh, did I mention I've used that same #4 as a jointer for smaller things? :eek:

Use the proper tool for the job, and most of that is in your mind. Would you drive a finish nail with a sledgehammer? Of course not. Would you break up a block of concrete with a framing hammer? Not unless you have a *lot* of anger you need to work out. Why use a #5 just because it's a "jack" plane and someone says you're supposed to use it to do "X" task? That's like someone telling you that you *have* to use a wrecker bar in demolition because that's what it's designed to do.

Anyway, end of rant there.

tl;dr version: use what you like. It's your hobby, enjoy it.

Hilton Ralphs
07-28-2013, 5:55 AM
I personally believe LN's stuff is more aimed at traditional woodworkers, whereas Lee Valley has grabbed the hobbyist market.


Good grief!

Lee Valley certainly sells a wide range of tools that could be classified as 'hobbyist" as you put it. Certainly their gardening and kitchen range is geared for the home owner and not the caterer or landscaper. Even most of the tools are affordable and will be bought by the weekend warrior.

To imply their Veritas range is geared to the DIYer or Hobbyist is probably stretching the imagination a wee bit.

Hey if the Bronze look gets you all hot under the collar and you like to do things the hard way then all the power to you. Other prefer to move with the times yet still embrace hand tools but acknowledge the subtleties that Veritas embed in their tools that make the whole process less caveman-ish.

In this part of the world there ain't no hobbyist rushing out to buy Veritas tools first up. It's off to the local home store to get the latest Stanley handyman range of tools. Later on that purchasing trend may change though.

Adam Cruea
07-28-2013, 12:23 PM
Hey if the Bronze look gets you all hot under the collar and you like to do things the hard way then all the power to you. Other prefer to move with the times yet still embrace hand tools but acknowledge the subtleties that Veritas embed in their tools that make the whole process less caveman-ish.

In this part of the world there ain't no hobbyist rushing out to buy Veritas tools first up. It's off to the local home store to get the latest Stanley handyman range of tools. Later on that purchasing trend may change though.

There is a reason for bronze besides just looks. Bronze is heavier (albeit, slightly). For example, from LN's site:

No. 4 Bench Plane
A full size Smoothing Plane, 9˝" (24.1cm) long, 2" (5.08cm) x .125" (3.17mm) thick blade, 4 lbs. in Iron, 4˝ lbs. in Bronze. Capable of taking the finest shavings from the most difficult woods. Now shipping with the Improved Chipbreaker.

So with the same design, Bronze is 1/2 lbs (8 ounces) heavier than the iron version. That's a pretty big difference for such a small tool. Bronze isn't just for looks; there's a reason for it.

Again, this is one of the reasons why I feel LN caters more toward "traditional" and LV caters more toward "hobbyist". It's nothing to do with skills, but everything to do with minutia. As a personal example, you got the PM-V11 chisels without much thought. Tang chisels, powdered metal, all the latest tech used to make them. For me, the PM-V11 does nothing. I love the concept of it, and I'm sure for someone that just wants a blade to stay sharp it works flawlessly. I don't like tang chisels, I prefer socket chisels. I prefer the traditional look using traditional methods. Heck, it took me 3 years of doing this stuff before I caved in an finally bought a bandsaw to resaw lumber. It was either that or build a resaw frame. Buying my drill press, it was between that or a brace.

I'm surrounded by technology on a day in, day out basis as I work in IT. I have a Blackberry that I have to keep strapped to my butt like it's a growth. Sometimes it's nice for me to just leave that all behind and have to deal with the minutia that "traditional" tools without innovations offer and feel some sort of analog feedback for once. I'm not slamming on LV at all; I think Rob is doing an awesome job. They're just not tools for me. Like I said, I have too much technology and innovation in my work life that takes the skill and brain work out of getting things working. I don't want that in my personal life and would much rather actually have harder-to-use tools while learning from the ground up with an open mind. I realize not everyone is like that, but I love a challenge and love doing things that take a high degree of skill.

And finally, my reasoning why LV is more "hobbyist" and LN is more "traditionalist". . .look at the prices. $345 for a shoot plane vs. $500 for a shoot plane (LV vs LN). A "hobbyist" is going to go for the $345 every time, whereas a "traditionalist" is probably not going to flinch plopping down $500.

Jim Koepke
07-28-2013, 1:02 PM
Buying my drill press, it was between that or a brace.

You must have been looking at some rather expensive braces or very inexpensive drill presses.

Of course who am I to wonder about this with two drill presses and maybe a dozen braces. Of course one of the DPs sits unused in a corner (it was given to me by a friend) as do about half of the braces.

jtk

Adam Cruea
07-28-2013, 1:07 PM
You must have been looking at some rather expensive braces or very inexpensive drill presses.

Of course who am I to wonder about this with two drill presses and maybe a dozen braces. Of course one of the DPs sits unused in a corner (it was given to me by a friend) as do about half of the braces.

jtk

:p

No. My point was it was "breaking tradition" vs "tradition". Would being able to say I did this *completely* by hand be worth the money spent for a drill press?

I eventually realized that $800 for a drill press and guaranteed 90* boring was worth it considering I doubt I could drill a 90* bore with a brace.

Jim Koepke
07-28-2013, 1:47 PM
I eventually realized that $800 for a drill press and guaranteed 90* boring was worth it considering I doubt I could drill a 90* bore with a brace.

With a little time and practice one's level of boring with a brace can get pretty good.

My main use for a drill press is to drill non-wood items, smaller holes or when using forstner bits.

jtk

Chris Griggs
07-28-2013, 2:45 PM
Both companies make "gentlemen's" tools for "gentlemen woodworkers". Of course, both companies make professional quality tools and there are pro's who use them, but I'm pretty certain the vast lions share of the market is hobbyist. Nothing says this more than the fact that both companies bothered to develop a shootboard plane. There is nothing particularly "traditional" about any iteration of stanley 51. Nothing screams "gentlemen woodworker" (and I count myself as one) louder than a $350-$500 dedicated shooting plane. Not that they are not nice tools, but lets not pretend that somehow the real woodworkers are using one companies tools and posers are using the other, even if it does give us the warm fuzzies and make us feel like we are part of some type of exclusive, noble, and immortal lineage of skilled crafts people.

As a side note this conversation does make me wonder who the bulk of the market for high end infills and such were. High end cabinet cabinet makers...or the gentlemen woodworkers of the past?

Adam Cruea
07-28-2013, 3:54 PM
Both companies make "gentlemen's" tools for "gentlemen woodworkers". Of course, both companies make professional quality tools and there are pro's who use them, but I'm pretty certain the vast lions share of the market is hobbyist. Nothing says this more than the fact that both companies bothered to develop a shootboard plane. There is nothing particularly "traditional" about any iteration of stanley 51. Nothing screams "gentlemen woodworker" (and I count myself as one) louder than a $350-$500 dedicated shooting plane. Not that they are not nice tools, but lets not pretend that somehow the real woodworkers are using one companies tools and posers are using the other, even if it does give us the warm fuzzies and make us feel like we are part of some type of exclusive, noble, and immortal lineage of skilled crafts people.

As a side note this conversation does make me wonder who the bulk of the market for high end infills and such were. High end cabinet cabinet makers...or the gentlemen woodworkers of the past?

Perhaps I should use the "traditional" and "non-traditional" monikers instead.

LN is "traditional"; as someone said in another thread, they take a plane exactly like how Stanley designed it and make it of better quality. LV does not; they innovate and toss some extras in/on it. Stanley, as far as I know, never used set screws to keep a blade from moving laterally, therefore any design utilizing them is "non-traditional" or as I view, "hobbyist". It's for someone that wants all the bells, whistles, and gadgets.

Where people are getting this idea I'm saying LV is for scrubs and LN is for pros is beyond me. It's like people have some serious inferiority complex because I pointed out one tool follows traditional design and the other does not.


tra·di·tion

noun\trə-ˈdi-shən\

1 a: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable

2
: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction

3
: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions

4
: characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

No where does Merriam-Webster say "traditional" means "professional". Look up the definition of "hobby". . .something one pursues for relaxation. Most people don't believe that screwing around finessing something is "relaxing", though there are those of us wired oddly like that.

So yes, the way LN did the 51 shooter is "traditional"; it's been done before and Lie-Nielsen follow the pattern of thought for it and improved it slightly and kept "traditional" qualities; eg no adjustable mouth, Bedrock style pin adjusts for frog, bevel-down blade.

This is why I hate talking to people; say something accurate and they have to read into it like you're trying to take them down. Most of us are hobbyists on here. The only exception that jumps out is George; he did all this for a living, we don't. Some of us are "traditionalists"; we enjoy the look of the Stanley/Bailey/Bedrock and like the way they look. Some of us are just hobbyists that don't care about the look, but want it to work and do a good job. I wish people would realize that not everything in this effin' world is a competition and not everyone is trying to bash someone else.

Chris Griggs
07-28-2013, 4:29 PM
Sorry Adam. That came across as snarkier than intended. The rib about "feeling warm and fuzzy" was more intended as a collective rib, but reading back it probably does read as more of a personal insult. My apologies. And yes, I'd agree with your definition of traditional vs. non traditional above and with your application of it to LV and LN tools. Though I do confess that, despite your mention of it not being about skill, I did interpret your use of the word as somehow more skilled/more legitimate as it was used in contrast to "hobbyist". Traditional vs. less-traditional makes far more sense to me, as I didn't really "get" what you were getting at by contrasting hobbyist to traditional,as I don't see them as different groups but rather as intersecting subsets of the woodworker population.

Anyway, you're right I shouldn't have assumed negative intent on your part. You post here enough that I know your a nice, live and let live, kinda woodworker, and I've never seen you belittle anyone about there tool choices (and even if I didn't sorta e-know you I'd probably be better off not assuming ill intent). My apologies for assuming otherwise.

As far as the 51 being traditional, yes it does indeed follow in the tradition of stanley planes. My comment about it not being traditional had to do with my understanding (and I may be wrong) that it was not a tool that traditionally used in cabinet shops to any great extent. That's completely seperate, BTW, from my thoughts about the tool itself. It is indeed a sweet animal that anyone would be thrilled to have in their shop.

As far as why people (and me) were misinterpreting what you said. Well, aside from the choice of wording that confused me, it likely has to do with other folks who really do feel that way and don't hesitate it say it. I incorrectly projected such feelings that I've seen others express into your comments. Both LN and LV have a handful of followers who seem to feel that all things prior were inferior and other things current or future are cheap knock-offs (i call this the Dave Matthews Band fan syndrome).

So yeah, FWIW, I pretty much agree with everything you said above (especially the part about hating talking to people:))

Winton Applegate
07-28-2013, 6:51 PM
Adam,

OH now you've done it . . .
now you've done it !
Dissin' on the brother Veritas that way. At ain't right !

No I am not that exasperated but we have to discuss some thing around here, right ?

I must warn you I have drank most of a press pot of coffee AND got enough sleep for once.
I just hope I don't over flow my drool cup (that would be embarrassing).

Are there really no Douglas Adams fans here ?
If that is true then that is about the only thing missing from Sawmill.


There is a reason for bronze besides just looks.

No . . . there isn't. I have had two of the bronze LN smoothers, the #3 (returned) and the #4 (which I still have and like a lot) (mostly for it's looks). Also several other specialty LN planes such as the skewed block etc.

These are the smoothers I started out with. The planes that got me looking into REALLY how the heck to do this planing thing, because it still wasn't working for me, and were to go from where I was at to achieve tearout free planing of purple heart.
If it would have been working I wouldn't have been searching further.
I know I harp on that but it still applies to this exact example and this exact same model of LN plane so I am going with it . . . again. Passengers will please extinguish all medications they may have set alight and buckle their seat belts; this craft makes quite an alarmingly sudden transit to the heart of the nebula.


No. 4 Bench Plane in Bronze is . . .Capable of taking the finest shavings from the most difficult woods

THAT IS MARKETING HYPE BY THE MANUFACTURER

OK . . .
once upon a time I used that all bronze dude as one of my only planes. It tore out in one of the woods I was learning on (purple heart), I learned to back bevel, it didn't tear out, I used it a whole lot. I didn't realize just how much it was dragging at the sole from friction but later learned to lube the sole with wax , oil and what have you. From this point I learned how MUCH it was dragging and by this time had acquired more planes. Iron, wood, white bronze.

So . . . the down side of bronze is it has more drag than iron. Wooden body planes have way less drag and are way lighter and yet . . . do and have done the greatest work out there.

Now about the heavier being an advantage.
Nonsense ! Yes heavy iron and bronze planes are fun to have and seam like real MACHINES (UUUNH, UUUNHH).

(picture the pickup truck with the added Cummins deisel and "extra macho" package that sounds like an articulated front end loader parked next to the lowly Ford gasoline fired F100 with skinny tires God forbid. Both take the load of branches to the dump just fine )

All that iron and all that weight SHOULD be far superior to those old wooden planes and maybe that is true in a couple of ways but at the end of the day for the most part all that weight just means you worked harder than you needed to .

Weight being a good thing ? Nope.
An accurately made plane, that is RIDGID enough with a properly configured and sharpened blade is the key. Any time I could shed weight I would.

For instance I can and have planed everything just as well with a finish plane as I could with a #7 jointer. Bevel up or bevel down. I have both in both categories. There is a monstrous weight difference there. You would think I would notice if one was better on the weight issue alone.

And Finally . . .
my gosh I could hardly hang up my laundry fast enough before responding to your posts I was so fired up.

Hey I practice semi Neander cloths washing. Washer but no drier.
a guy has to compromise somewhere.
BUT NOT ON MY HAND PLANES


LV caters more toward "hobbyist".

oh, oH, OH !
Well take this . . .
several of their planes have Norris style adjusters !
More precise, no problem with the blade tilt side to side changing while advancing the blade like on the LN bevel up jack and block planes. No wheelie, wheelieing of the adjuster like on the bevel down bed rock style adjusters.

Hobby ! Indeed.

Even this plane with the optional add on tote
http://www.veritastools.com/Products/Page.aspx?p=392
held up to extremely heavy daily use, on bubbinga no less, far beyond what it was really made for. I used it for practically every thing from a scrub plane with the mouth opened way up and curved blades in it to finish planing work. It is my substitute for the LN #3 because the handle works much better for me and I don't bang my wrist bone on the edge of the work as I was doing with my LN #3.

It is one of my favorite planes so I used it a whole lot to find out what it couldn't do. To agree with what you said "use what you like".

The only hint of the Varitas tools being the least bit "hobby" or lesser is the screws in the handles need to be tightened more often than the LNs.
This could just be because I use the Varitas planes more.
:)

No they could beef up the handle screws a little but I have had zero problems and certainly no failures so this is really nit picking and playing devil's advocate on my part here.


That's my personal opinion, though, and I came to that conclusion by owning and using a lot of planes from both companies for the last twelve years or so.

(Nice rant by the way ; I agree with you in many things you said about plane size etc.)

Chris Griggs
07-28-2013, 7:17 PM
Winton, I think a lot of these problems you're experiencing with planing would be alleviated if you learned how to sharpen properly. I mean it really not fair to blame the tool, especially one as nice as your LN. Get yourself some decent stones and get someone who knows what they're doing to show you how its done:p

And dude, what's with all the purple heart. I mean why do you want all your woodworking projects to look the a teenage girl's eye-shadow?;)

Winton Applegate
07-28-2013, 8:14 PM
My projects look like a teenage girls eye shadow

That's bad ? ? ? ?
:D

Seriously though you caught the half dozen or so post where I said I didn't care about the color and was going for the strongest affordable wood I could find. Right ?

aaaaahhh . . . and you should see some of them ! Some of them are bonnie t'ings to behold.
eeeerrrrr ummmm
I mean . . . strong . . . yah . . . and . . . strong.
:)

As far as sharpening . . .
I just have Jeeves, my tool valet, do that.
I can't really be bothered with the small details.

Chris Griggs
07-28-2013, 8:19 PM
Seriously though you caught the half dozen or so post where I said I didn't care about the color and was going for the strongest affordable wood I could find. Right ?

Well yes, I saw those but by pretending I didn't,my post was much more humorous (to me anyway...my wife gives me the impression that I'm the only person who thinks I'm funny)

Say high to Jeeve's for me. I'd like to invest in a Jeeves one of these days. Does LN or LV sell one?

Tony Wilkins
07-28-2013, 9:04 PM
I'd like to invest in a Jeeves one of these days. Does LN or LV sell one? LN has one planned but it's much too traditional for LV; however, Rob is supposedly working on a Jeeeves for next year with an additional arm grafted on to make it more useful the the hobbyist ;)

And as the OP that started all this ridiculousness I'd just like to apologize. It's pretty obvious that I'm a hobbyist and not a particularly skilled one at that.

I do have one thing I had thought of regarding bench height and why I didn't like the LN. The most uncomfortable part of it was the horn on the back of the tote digging in to the webbing between my thumb and forefinger. Unless I'm thinking wrong, that wouldn't indicate that the bench was too tall but the opposite right?

Chris Hachet
07-28-2013, 10:49 PM
This whole thread makes me think of my auto racing days with the Sports Car Club of America. guys would sit around and whine about shocks and tire compounds, and the fast guys would be fast on any tires or shocks. if you can'T be fast or smooth, it is the equipment, right?

Old guy down the street from me as a kid was a very talented woodworker and did almost everything by hand with vintage Stanley tools. Am I seriously less of a woodworker because I have a garage full of old Stanley stuff myself and wish to follow in his footsteps?

Chris Fournier
07-28-2013, 11:52 PM
LV makes revolutionary designs? Set screws keep your blade square? Please, this is nonsense. If you can't get the ergonomics right you're not even in the ball park. Don't confuse CNC frivolity with good design. I have spent $10s of thousands of dollars at LV yet I only own their router plane. Their planes break no new ground and they are coarse in hand and unattractive to the eye. You like them because they are less $$$ than LN so be it but please spare us the snake oil sales pitch. Again I've spent a fortune at LV, they are a great company, their planes can't touch LN even with the $$$ differential.

Sam Babbage
07-29-2013, 5:09 AM
There is nothing wrong with LV's planes. While I prefer LN bench planes (possibly because im vaguely OCD about things matching and my first good plane was a LN 4.5) I am more than comfortable grabbing my coworker's LV 4 (I've used it extensively,) it is a fine plane, and ergonomic concerns are overblown if you spend some serious time with one. Set screws are cool, they get you back to work faster. And frankly, most of LV's specialty planes are superior to LN. Router, shoulder etc. That said, there's a certain aesthetic appeal to LN.

Chris Griggs
07-29-2013, 6:56 AM
LV makes revolutionary designs? Set screws keep your blade square? Please, this is nonsense. If you can't get the ergonomics right you're not even in the ball park. Don't confuse CNC frivolity with good design. I have spent $10s of thousands of dollars at LV yet I only own their router plane. Their planes break no new ground and they are coarse in hand and unattractive to the eye. You like them because they are less $$$ than LN so be it but please spare us the snake oil sales pitch. Again I've spent a fortune at LV, they are a great company, their planes can't touch LN even with the $$$ differential.

Chris I need to thank you for 3 things.

Thank you no. 1) Showing me the real reason I have purchased the LV planes I have. All this time I thought I liked my small plow and skew rabbet, because they easily effectively and comfortably create joinery. Turns out I only bought them because they are cheaper than the LN versions....wait??? Um no bad example. Okay I got a new one. It turns out the only reason I like my LV medium shoulder planes is because at $179 it saved me wads of cash over the $195 LN verion....wait umm??? 195-179=errrrr $16... Oh well, I suppose that will have to do to prove your point.

Thank you no 2) Thank you for illustrating so nicely the exact kind attitude that I mistakably attributed to Adam and apologized for. In fact you did it so well I'm going to go ahead and quote the snarky commment I made in my post to Adam redirect it here.


...lets not pretend that somehow the real woodworkers are using one companies tools and posers are using the other, even if it does give us the warm fuzzies and make us feel like we are part of some type of exclusive, noble, and immortal lineage of skilled crafts people.



Thank you No. 3) For the longest time I've been wondering who the guy in this ridiculous video was. Thank you for letting the cat out of the bag.

Chris Griggs
07-29-2013, 7:07 AM
BTW.

For the record, I'm sure I'm coming across as super pro LV and anti LN here. Not the case at all. I love love love LN planes. My favorite shooting plane I've ever used is the LN no. 9 (that;s in comparison to both the LN and LV LA Jacks as well as the LN 51). And as I've said before, when it comes to bevel down bench planes, I would grab an LN before an LV without blinking an eye at the extra cash. True my collection is LV planes, but that's because, I have chosen to invest my money in joinery planes first. Buying premium bench planes is a harder pill for me to swallow as I have zero problems getting my vintage ones to do what I want, but again, I'll say that the LN BD planes are the nicest to use bench planes I've put my hands on.

At the end of the day, I can honestly say that I don't think either company makes a line of planes that is categorically better than the other company's. I'm not just saying that to sound fair and balance...its what I really think. I think LN has nailed the BD planes, and LV had nailed the joinery planes. And with everything else, block planes, chisels, shoulder planes, etc...I like both brands equally well.

My beef is with people who somehow think they are superior by using one brand over the other and who voice thoughts like "the only reason anyone would an LV over an LN is because they are less expensive" or on the other end of the spectrum "the only reason someone would by a LN over and LV is because they look nicer". Of course, both are important selling points but we all know that neither is the whole story and for me there are times when neither of those things are even factors.

Adam Cruea
07-29-2013, 8:07 AM
Hey, I'll straight up admit I'd have more LV planes if they'd change the totes. :p Hence why I have a nest full of old Stanley/Bailey/Bedrocks. And to be honest, the Bedrock planes are *all* idiot purchases because I like the styling. Bedrock, Bailey. . .both seem to work just as well, and the Stanleys with a little tuning can work just as well.

Winton:

You realize if you'd stop trying to plane that steel you call purpleheart, you might get the difference between iron and bronze, right? ;) *runs behind workbench and cowers like a little girl*

Chris G> No problem, dude. I am a live and let live type. If a $30 Kobalt plane works for you, so be it. Who am I to judge what someone uses and does? We're all here to make sawdust and fluffy shavings; how we all get there is our own prerogative. LV does have some great little joinery planes, though. If only they could offer a Stanley-esque tote instead, I'd be totally sold. :)

David Weaver
07-29-2013, 8:11 AM
Purpleheart is no problem if you have an arsenal of infills and mujis. There, I give you license to purchase with your own money :)

You can build. I built infills at one point and will build more when my spousal request list goes away. I don't have any need for them, but I don't need to work wood at all, either.

Chris Griggs
07-29-2013, 8:20 AM
Hey, I'll straight up admit I'd have more LV planes if they'd change the totes. :p Hence why I have a nest full of old Stanley/Bailey/Bedrocks. And to be honest, the Bedrock planes are *all* idiot purchases because I like the styling. Bedrock, Bailey. . .both seem to work just as well, and the Stanleys with a little tuning can work just as well.

Winton:

You realize if you'd stop trying to plane that steel you call purpleheart, you might get the difference between iron and bronze, right? ;) *runs behind workbench and cowers like a little girl*

Chris G> No problem, dude. I am a live and let live type. If a $30 Kobalt plane works for you, so be it. Who am I to judge what someone uses and does? We're all here to make sawdust and fluffy shavings; how we all get there is our own prerogative. LV does have some great little joinery planes, though. If only they could offer a Stanley-esque tote instead, I'd be totally sold. :)

Adam. I totally appreciate your light-hearted take here. I'm usually more light hearted and well behaved like you are being, but I seem to be taking myself way to seriously today. Must be the heat.

And as big of and LV fan boy as I am, I'm with you on the totes. Actually, on the joinery planes I like them...but the totes are pretty much the key reason why I like the LN bench planes over the LVs. LV clearly has no issue selling their planes so there must be folks who like them. They don't kill me the way they kill some people but I definitely like the LN totes and my vintage planes totes better.

Stay cool my friend...and keep enjoying that 51. I bet you could plow through some purple heart end grain "like butta" with that thing:)

Adam Cruea
07-29-2013, 8:58 AM
Adam. I totally appreciate your light-hearted take here. I'm usually more light hearted and well behaved like you are being, but I seem to be taking myself way to seriously today. Must be the heat.

And as big of and LV fan boy as I am, I'm with you on the totes. Actually, on the joinery planes I like them...but the totes are pretty much the key reason why I like the LN bench planes over the LVs. LV clearly has no issue selling their planes so there must be folks who like them. They don't kill me the way they kill some people but I definitely like the LN totes and my vintage planes totes better.

Stay cool my friend...and keep enjoying that 51. I bet you could plow through some purple heart end grain "like butta" with that thing:)

Eh, we all have our moments. No harm, no foul, let's go get some beers (or Long Islands in my case). The only way to really get to me is a personal attack, and you all just got to see what *that* garners (the redneck "Backwoods legit, don't take no $&*(" comes out in full force).

I love using my dad's plow plane but for one reason; my hand gets a gawd-awful deep cramp when I use it too long. If it were mine, I might look to make a new tote for it, but meh. From pain comes pleasure. . .or maybe pain is weakness leaving the body? Something like that. :p

Dude, I still smile and snicker every time I use my 51. Sometimes I like to just grab a piece of scrap wood and make nice, pretty ribbons of end grain with it. True story. :o

Chris Griggs
07-29-2013, 9:00 AM
At least I don't have to get permission from my wife to go tool shopping and heaven forbid, have her set the 'spending limit'. Ah, the quintessential modern day emasculated male!



I call foul! I mean I was in disagreement with Adam too, and have certainly put some snark into this thread, but that's low dude. Especially considering that Adam has already clarified that he hadn't intended for his comments to come across as criticizing other peoples buying choices.

BTW. I have no qualms about having my wife's approval on large purchases, who makes a good bit more money than I do BTW. I mean it is a partnership after all and I would prefer to stay happily married.

I think its time to start placing bets on the total number of posts this thread will get before its gets locked.

Chris Hachet
07-29-2013, 10:12 AM
There is nothing wrong with LV's planes. While I prefer LN bench planes (possibly because im vaguely OCD about things matching and my first good plane was a LN 4.5) I am more than comfortable grabbing my coworker's LV 4 (I've used it extensively,) it is a fine plane, and ergonomic concerns are overblown if you spend some serious time with one. Set screws are cool, they get you back to work faster. And frankly, most of LV's specialty planes are superior to LN. Router, shoulder etc. That said, there's a certain aesthetic appeal to LN. I could not agree more....I am really liking what I see with the LV specialty planes, plan on adding some to the fleet.

Ryan Griffey
07-29-2013, 7:09 PM
This is the kind of garbage that is ruining this forum.

You would be better suited to stop bickering and learn how to use all of the those LV tools your always yapping about.

Winton Applegate
07-29-2013, 10:08 PM
Adam,

;)*runs behind workbench and cowers like a little girl*

I'm already hiding behind mine. It is embarrassing when I post a novella like that. Gives me something to do instead of actually making something out of wood though. That would actually takes some thought, skill and energy on my part. Typing is easier and no chance of getting a splinter.


Stanley-esque tote instead

Yes I think that would be a reasonable option.
When I first was considering buying LVs the aesthetic shape of their totes did keep me away. As I said I am now fine with the originals but for those who can't use them . . .

Varitas . . . are you listening to this ?

Here is a chance to make more bucks and expand your market and sell a whole bunch of handles as optional upgrades.

;)Cheers Adam

Tony Wilkins
07-29-2013, 11:08 PM
I'm so sorry I asked. Just wanted to help me think out the tools I was using. I wasn't trying to start a big debate between the two companies. I think they are both first rate. Can we just shut this puppy down?

Ken Fitzgerald
07-30-2013, 12:31 AM
I think its time to start placing bets on the total number of posts this thread will get before its gets locked.

It didn't get much farther!


There is a certain level of friendliness and civility expected here at SMC. Failure to abide by the TOSs could result in infractions and eventual loss of posting privileges.

Beyond that...we aren't in the alley or behind the barn. There is no place at SMC for profanity or "off-colored remarks". They violate the TOSs too.