3D Laser Engraving Options?

[Martin James]

3d Laser Engraving Solutions. I am looking for a control board software package that will allow for 3d laser engraving.

Background:


Many graphics, 3D imaging and CNC design programs can render a heightfield from a grayscale file. Typically users set the light shades to high and the darks to low. Any photo or graphic color or black and white can be used.


The math used to generate a heightfield is simplistic. In any grayscale image, or any single channel of a color image, there are 256 shades possible from darkest to lightest.


On a CNC mill one could cut a logo image using just 2 shades, black and white. To do so you need to tell the software to raise the white pixels up say 2mm. Depending upon the software you can either create a .dxf or go straight to tool path code. The math reads: if pixel is black do nothing, if pixel is white raise 2mm. Is is very simple.


If you use more shades then you add more 3D steps to your cut. In the above case, half way between white and black is %50 gray, %50 gray areas would be a 1mm raise.


To engrave grayscale with a laser the software and control board must be able to vary the laser power based on the shade value of each pixel in your picture. Many western laser software programs do this. Kern, Epilog etc.


If you design to the process, grayscale design works very well for 2.5D engraving.


Unfortunately very few people take advantage of the process because it takes several days of trial and error before one begins to understand what will look good. An unedited photo your wife/husband will NOT look good in laser engraved 3d.


I am looking for more information about which software packages will engrave 3D from grayscale.

I am currently looking at the 600900 from Shenhui using RDCAM/Laserworks6. There are several posts on the forum where people mention that this software should work, but the Shenhui rep says no.


If you have 3D engraving experience or knowledge please chime in here and tell us which systems work and which do not.
Here is an example of simple 3d laser engraving using a semi edited grayscale image.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tv0bkLcaIQ


Thanks, Marty

[Dan Hintz]

I hate to ruin the party, but that video does not show 3D engraving... it shows exactly what you described earlier, a standard B&W photo engraved using power-linked-to-black level. It will look okay in one viewing position only.

What exactly are you after? Most lasers will do an actual 3D engraving given the proper input file, but no laser will natively create one of those files. Generally, you use a 3D image software package, as you mentioned.

[Chuck Stone]

if YOU find this software .. let us know.
I can think of lots of things to do with 3D engraving from a 2D file.
Unfortunately, I haven't found any software to do it easily. And
doing it manually is cost prohibitive (unless your hourly rate is less
than minimum wage)

[Martin James]

Dan, thanks for the reply. I want to know which chineese or after market software / board combo will adjust engraving power based on grayscale values. I need to know which software, and how to do it, like which menu command etc.

I have read every post here on "grayscale" and "3d engraving", I have also searched youtube in English and several other languages. I wrote to gantry.com. There is not much information out there execpt a few videos by kern showing the capacity of their system.

I attached the link to that video because the guy is using lightobject, an aftermarket board/software package. You are right the file chosen for the video was not perpared for 3d.

I have been using photoshop for 3d for about 10 years, it would be a mistake for me to buy a laser system that can not use grayscale to acheive 3D. A 20mb .bmp grayscale turns into a 400mb .dfx. Grayscale holds so much more info for 2.5 d designs.

Cheers Marty

[Balsanu Gabi]

Hi,

First of all we talking about 2.5 D not 3D. Second of all have a look on output direct option on scan menu. What you want us possible on RDCam. Good luck

HTH

Gabi

[Rodne Gold]

The problem with lasers vs CnC machines is that lasers cannot control the depth adequately with just increasing power .. it is not linear as with a CnC machine , you have all sorts of issues like melt , charring , overpowering material that makes it warp or burn , different materials act differently with regard to power and so on. If you notice , most of us actually have the capability to do 3d engraving and very few actually do...
The "better" way to emulate 3d with a laser is to program various elements within the graphic as different colours and maybe use 5-8 "steps" of differing power per colour ... wont help with greyscale , but it works very well with vector based files.

[Dan Hintz]

Hmmmm, can't offer any suggestion of Chinese packages (the options for board/software combos seem to change on a monthly basis), but all of the Western machines will do it automatically (ULS, Epilog, Trotec, etc.)

[Jeff Woodcock]

Here is something similar to what your talking about. Contact Paul as he may be able to help you on how to vary the power for engraving 8bit cut depths with software/hardware options. I use PicEngrave Pro 4 Plus Laser and use an analog modulated driver to vary the power of my laser diode to 256 levels, but Paul does it somehow with his home built CO2 so he could assist you better then I can.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196553-Laser-cut-Lithophanes (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196553-Laser-cut-Lithophanes)

[Martin James]

Hi,

First of all we talking about 2.5 D not 3D. Second of all have a look on output direct option on scan menu. What you want us possible on RDCam. Good luck

HTH

Gabi
Hi Gabi, Before starting this post I downloaded rdcam user manual and looked for output direct, but I could not find it.
Could you please tell me the specific steps, for example; save as .bmp>open in rdcam laserworks> assign color....
I started this post only after the Shenhui rep told me that the rdcam would not use grayscale to control the power.
thank you very much.

[Martin James]

266957266958
Hi Chuck, I use a old copy of photoshop, this is rough, and took about 12 minutes. select a white oval with a black background then blur to get the dome, then select the items to raise on a different layer, turn off that layer and use brightness contrast to then increase the values on top of the dome. you watch the K value which is in percent to know how high each element is.
cheers M


if YOU find this software .. let us know.
I can think of lots of things to do with 3D engraving from a 2D file.
Unfortunately, I haven't found any software to do it easily. And
doing it manually is cost prohibitive (unless your hourly rate is less
than minimum wage)

[Dan Hintz]

Simple B&W images are easy (relatively speaking)... it's true gradients that present a major issue. While doable by hand, it's often easier to create an actual 3D model and let the software make the height map.

[Phil Horne]

Cadlink is making a special version of engravelab that directly supports leetro controllers and has the ability to do grey-scale power mapping which will give you 2.5D engraving... My copy is in the mail and I am anxiously awaiting its arival, as soon as I get it in Ill be playing with it extensively.. It completely replaces lasercut 5.3!

[Chuck Stone]

Hi Chuck, I use a old copy of photoshop, this is rough, and took about 12 minutes. select a white oval with a black background then blur to get the dome, then select the items to raise on a different layer, turn off that layer and use brightness contrast to then increase the values on top of the dome. you watch the K value which is in percent to know how high each element is.
cheers M

Hi Martin..
Yeah, that's easy enough. Two or three levels .. assign colors and go.
I'm looking for software that can create grayscale images with more
levels than that. (16?) to give more contour, texture, fine control.
I'm looking for a way to create files that look more like this:

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm looking for a way to create files that look more like this:

Really? Those are horrible for 3D. Those are setup for layering, not 3D.

[Mike Lysov]

Hi Martin..
Yeah, that's easy enough. Two or three levels .. assign colors and go.
I'm looking for software that can create grayscale images with more
levels than that. (16?) to give more contour, texture, fine control.
I'm looking for a way to create files that look more like this:

I do not want to disappoint you but there is no software that can do such things from just a photo. And I do not think there will ever be something like this done.
I was looking for it too but then I realized that it cannot be done automatically. A normal photograph does not represent height map of pictured objects, it represents object colours. That's why it is impossible to convert one representation to the other by implementing some algorithm to do it.

As suggested above it can only be done by hand or by converting a 3d object.

[Mike Lysov]

Really? Those are horrible for 3D. Those are setup for layering, not 3D.

why is it horrible? I believe that exactly what type of image you need to have to do 3d laser engraving. I have a few images in this format and that's what you can find on kern lasers website or gantry dot com

[Scott Shepherd]

why is it horrible? I believe that exactly what type of image you need to have to do 3d laser engraving. I have a few images in this format and that's what you can find on kern lasers website or gantry dot com

I must be looking at something else. On the photos I see, there are distinct lines where each color stops, creating a stair step effect. On gantry's website, you'll see very "fuzzy" looking edges, everything is very smooth and blending (which is exactly what you want). I don't see anything smooth or blending from the photos posted that I commented on.

[Martin James]

Chuck, you can use a roland mdx mill with the scan head. You use hard modeling clay and shelac before the scan. Heat the clay to work it.

Also look at 123d catch from auto desk for iphone. Thats free and goes to .dfx, then you need to find a way to convert to .bmp

[Dennis Watson]

When I think of 3D laser I think of the images they put inside acrylic cubes. That buffaloes the heck out of me.

[Chuck Stone]

Chuck, you can use a roland mdx mill with the scan head. You use hard modeling clay and shelac before the scan. Heat the clay to work it.

Also look at 123d catch from auto desk for iphone. Thats free and goes to .dfx, then you need to find a way to convert to .bmp

Martin .. when I can afford a scanner .. LOL
But you're correct about the 123D. I downloaded the beta a couple of years ago and
got back 3D type files, but every time I tried to open the other files, they were
empty. Then I couldn't log in anymore.
Downloaded the David scanner software too, but haven't gotten around to setting
up a scanner.

But for all that, you're still starting from a 3D object (or 2.5D)
So in effect, it's a good way to enlarge or reduce or copy.

But the holy grail would be software that could get you in the ballpark from a photo.
I can't think of a way to do it either.. which is why I say if anyone finds such software,
let us know.

[Chuck Stone]

I do not want to disappoint you but there is no software that can do such things from just a photo. And I do not think there will ever be something like this done.
I was looking for it too but then I realized that it cannot be done automatically.

Mike.. I DO understand this. I can still wish, right?
But then there are some things being done now that I never
thought would be possible or practical.. so who knows?
But you're right.. I can't see a way to make that jump with
automation.

[Chuck Stone]

I must be looking at something else. On the photos I see, there are distinct lines where each color stops, creating a stair step effect. On gantry's website, you'll see very "fuzzy" looking edges, everything is very smooth and blending (which is exactly what you want). I don't see anything smooth or blending from the photos posted that I commented on.

One of my replies disappeared, I guess.. but you're right about the sharp edges. These files
aren't meant for a laser. But it *IS* exactly the type of file you'd want to get a 2.5D effect
with the laser. Obviously you'd smooth the edges and transitions, which isn't done in the ones
I posted. But that's a very quick job in Photoshop.

I have engraved them and they work great for a 2.5D effect.

[Balsanu Gabi]

Hi Gabi, Before starting this post I downloaded rdcam user manual and looked for output direct, but I could not find it.
Could you please tell me the specific steps, for example; save as .bmp>open in rdcam laserworks> assign color....
I started this post only after the Shenhui rep told me that the rdcam would not use grayscale to control the power.
thank you very much.

Hi Martin,

Sorry for late reply. I thought I was sign for any new messages on this thread but... Anyway have a look on the image and I think will fighre out how is all about.
As for steps:
- import an bmp image
- open scan menu (double click on it)
- see image.
Bear in mind the finish will depends on the scanning interval (last figures on the bottom of scan menu). If you set that scanning gap too low is possible the controller to go on the verge (it need to be reset to work again). Also the quality is not that good like a CNC relief.
I have ArtCam which is the best on industry for this kind of work (2.5D). It will be doable with any true 3D software like 3DS Max, Maya, ZBrush, MudBox or others but you will need to spend quite amount of money and time to achive good results.
Good luck

Gabi267145

[Dan Hintz]

I do not want to disappoint you but there is no software that can do such things from just a photo.

Not exactly true... there is some code out there that will use visual clues in a photo to give it some depth, and you can work off of that. It's not perfect by any means, but it's surprisingly good given some human input.

Also, plenty of software these days that can take two or more photos and create a 3D object... those are actually quite good.