Saw Sharpening and Vises

[Patrick Harper]

So, I picked up a couple of Disston D-8's on eBay this month. Both are in pretty great shape, but both need a sharpening. I purchased some Swiss Grobet taper files and a 10" bastard file for jointing. I am currently borrowing a friends saw vise, and that's where my question comes in. I believe he purchased this homemade steel vise on eBay. I have jointed the 4tpi rip saw, and started reshaping the teeth. All is going relatively well, but I seem to be getting some squealing and vibrations at certain points in the vise. There seems to be a little play in the plate here and there. When this happens, it definitely seems like the file isn't cutting as well and is harder to start. I just wanted to know how much of this is acceptable. Is it possible, I'm simply using too much pressure with the file? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

[David Weaver]

If the saw is four teeth, there will probably be some screeching. Here's my thoughts on what's probably going on:
* a lot of those old saw vises don't really grip the teeth that well, at least not uniformly along their length. If it's possible to true the jaws, that's good. If not, that's OK, too. You might be able to slip something between them and the saw, but maybe not.
* on really large teeth, you're going to get some screeching sometimes no matter what. You have a lot of file surface working its way over a lot of metal surface. If you have a lot of tooth to cut, you can bias the cut upward just a little (like 5 degrees, as in the handle down from where you're sitting) until your last pass with the file and and the last pass will level everything out and be the only one where you deal with the screech. If you're just touching up the teeth and they're already almost perfect, you can disregard that thought
* more set is going to have half of the teeth oriented toward you, orienting some of the teeth exactly opposite of my suggestion above, and you'll get more screech with more set.
* the file will eventually get dull, sometimes sooner rather than later.

Personally, I do what I meantioned until the last pass on saws with big teeth and I wear hearing protection on the last pass so I can just get the job done and get on with it. Screeching is not good for file life, but sometimes it's unavoidable on those big saws - esp. if you have a lot of set, and esp. as you're trying to get your money's worth out of the big files.

I have two saw vises. Good quality vintage vises with 3 dimensional adjustment, but on large saws, I just use two sprung boards in a vise instead. The fit on the teeth is a lot better.

Standard caveats apply for avoiding screech, too, which emphasize having little of the tooth exposed above the vise, I'm sure you're doing that already.

[Patrick Harper]

David, thanks a lot for your advice. This was exactly the sort of advice I was looking for.

The saw definitely has a good bit of set...probably too much. I'll try your trick of angling the file a few degrees. Just one more thing. If the heel is to my right, and the tooth to the right of my file is set towards me, should I be angling the handle up or down?

[David Weaver]

Handle down on your side of the saw, regardless of how the saw is set up. Lifting the handle will just make the skidding worse. Like i said, only a few degrees, any more than the least amount and you just have more work to do to get the teeth level on the last filing. You can tinker with it and find out what the least angle is where the file stops screeching. If you have to remove any amount of tooth, this will save you a LOT of time, just to have the file taking a good solid and consistent cut.

[Sam Stephens]

.... on large saws, I just use two sprung boards in a vise instead.

+1. i have a few of these for different saws. I also mark guide lines for fleam angles on x-cut saws.

[Tony Shea]

One suggestion for the vise you're using is lining the jaws with lead flashing. I had a pile of this stuff laying around from my reloading days and used it up on a couple metal saw vises and the difference is night and day. They will need to be replaced every so often as they don't bend back from their shape from the saws you throw in the vise. But it certainly helps deaden the sound and vibrations of a not so perfect fit of an old saw vise.

But as David has already mentioned I often will use board with a small amount of spring planed into them since most saw vises are too small anyway.

[Winton Applegate]

Squealing is an indication the vise is not close enough to the teeth. Or there is a gap at that point in the jaws.
I am posting a saw vise you can make your self. Obviously I am not a real Neander because I cut the bevel on my table saw and the relieved slot for the backsaw spine with a router.

I clamp this (see photos) in what ever woodworking vise I am using. A clamp or two can be added. No squealing.

I would recommend making the jig that I did. I looked at the vises available new and would have bought one if I thought that was the way to go but this one from a magazine article I have is better.

The pressure on the file should be firm but not excessive. Just enough to ensure the file is cutting rather than skating over the metal.

The squealing is dangerous because if you let it continue un checked your significant other will come down to the shop and without saying anything will give you a dope slap or two and go back up stairs. Don't ask how I know this.

Your cat may bite you on the ankle as well. Really hard.
You could double back tape some thin wood strips to the vise you have. Leather would probably work also.

PS: I don't file teeth larger than say 3 or 4 TPI or PPI if you like. So not saying larger ones won't be a special problem.

[Jim Matthews]

The cutout for the handle is clever.

Anthony Guidice details a similar clamp in vise jig (http://books.google.com/books?id=faue8Ea4r4QC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=anthony+guidice+sawvise&source=bl&ots=3gcZQ4Ul3r&sig=AenZRFd0OfbJOZPLvQgr9F6M8Ng&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oTDpUeeTEpKs4AOr5YHwCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=anthony%20guidice%20sawvise&f=false), with
a piece of bicycle innertube glued to the business end and a piano hinge at the bottom joint.

I bought a Grammercy vise. No fiddling, no fuss and it cost less than sending my saws out to sharpen.

(I don't see very well, so the clamp really helps elevate the teeth to a height where I can get a magnifying glass in position.)

I put chalk on my files because that's the way I was taught.
Supposedly that helps as a dry lubricant and mitigates squealing.

All my best saws "sing" a little when sharpening them.
The dogs, they don't howl much - I suppose we're hearing something about the way the steel is tensioned.

[lowell holmes]

http://www.tgiag.com/Knowledgebase/Shop%20built%20saw%20vise.html


I built the saw vise shown in the article above.

It is much better than my old cast iron Disston vise that just dose not work very well. If it heavier, I would make a boat anchor out of the Disston vise.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great thread! I have the Gramercy vise and would recommend it as well. I still may make one of the wooden vises Lowell links us to above. It looks like it could handle the big blades very well without having to move them every 10 seconds.

[Hilton Ralphs]

If the saw is four teeth, there will probably be some screeching.
It may be near the weekend but I have no idea what this means?

[David Barnett]

It may be near the weekend but I have no idea what this means?

Four teeth... [drum roll]....................... [wait for it]........................ per inch.


On really large teeth, you're going to get some screeching sometimes no matter what. You have a lot of file surface working its way over a lot of metal surface.

The file is apt to chatter and screech on saws with large teeth.

[David Weaver]

Yep, that pretty much sums it. Simply put, big teeth with the same set up as small teeth for sharpening will have more screech and chatter.

[Patrick Harper]

Thanks again for all of the advise.

Mike, I just noticed that you're pretty close to me. I'm over in Suwanee.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Four teeth... [drum roll]....................... [wait for it]........................ per inch.



Yeah yeah yeah :)

I'm embarrassed to say that I realised this a mere two seconds after hitting the big send button.

Sooooooooooo, is it 4tpi or 4ppi :p (rhetoric question).

[David Barnett]

Sooooooooooo, is it 4tpi or 4ppi :p (rhetoric question).

Since David W said "four teeth", then "tpi", I'm thinking. :)

[David Weaver]

4 tpi would equate to a disston saw that has "5" stamped on the plate, I think. I'd have to check that to be sure.

Anything stamped 4 on a plate will be firmly in screechland. Saws that coarse are not common, but they are out there. Saws stamped 4 1/2 are not that unusual, but would also have to be considered uncommon compared to the gobs of 5 1/2 stamped saws.

[Chris Griggs]

in screechland

Be careful if you find yourself in screechland. You don't want to run into this guy.

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[Charlie Stanford]

So, I picked up a couple of Disston D-8's on eBay this month. Both are in pretty great shape, but both need a sharpening. I purchased some Swiss Grobet taper files and a 10" bastard file for jointing. I am currently borrowing a friends saw vise, and that's where my question comes in. I believe he purchased this homemade steel vise on eBay. I have jointed the 4tpi rip saw, and started reshaping the teeth. All is going relatively well, but I seem to be getting some squealing and vibrations at certain points in the vise. There seems to be a little play in the plate here and there. When this happens, it definitely seems like the file isn't cutting as well and is harder to start. I just wanted to know how much of this is acceptable. Is it possible, I'm simply using too much pressure with the file? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Stick some leather scraps in between the plate and the vise in the section that's screeching - both sides of the plate. You may need to take them out altogether as you move down the plate or move them down the plate as you work. It can be a hassle but listening to too much screech can be unbearable.

Chalk the file too while you're at it, just a little.

[Steve Voigt]

http://www.tgiag.com/Knowledgebase/Shop%20built%20saw%20vise.html

I built the saw vise shown in the article above.

It is much better than my old cast iron Disston vise that just dose not work very well. If it heavier, I would make a boat anchor out of the Disston vise.


That's a nice looking design.
I based my vise on this design (http://www.closegrain.com/2011/06/building-lie-nielsen-saw-vise.html), but I used metal hinges rather than leather.
The Gramercy vises look nice too, but it's hard to argue with the cost of a wooden one, and they work great.

[Winton Applegate]

I put chalk on my files because that's the way I was taught.
Supposedly that helps as a dry lubricant and mitigates squealing.

Well let me say this about that and see what others think.

I find the squealing has some to do with the teeth on the file sinking up resonation wise, vibration wise when filing in a direction that the teeth jump off the work as another single file tooth or two come on to the work for a short period so there is an oscillation compounded.
Where as if the teeth angle diagonally and so are in longer term contact and several file teeth are on the work at once then there is less or no vibration.

I am pretty sure that was what David was talking about when discussing filing direction.

As far as chalk I only use that when filing aluminum, or "the white metals" to keep them from gumming up and remaining in the file teeth. which can cause galling which then makes deep "scratches" in a surface you are trying to smooth with a fine tooth file.
Mostly when I file steel I file in one direction, the push stroke, then lift off for the return stroke. When filing aluminum etc., I don't lift off for the return stroke but just let up on the pressure against the work. This pulls the swarf out of the file well enough to keep filing without the chalk thing. For the most part.

The four tooth thing just meant teeth that pitch are starting to get long enough that even choking up to the bottom of the gullets with the vise jaws, or as close as possible and still be able to file the teeth, . . . teeth that long can start to resonate no matter what you do. Or there abouts.

[David Kuzdrall]

That's a nice looking design.
I based my vise on this design (http://www.closegrain.com/2011/06/building-lie-nielsen-saw-vise.html), but I used metal hinges rather than leather.
The Gramercy vises look nice too, but it's hard to argue with the cost of a wooden one, and they work great.

I am planning to build one based on this design as well, however even simpler. Since the jaws only need to open enough to accommodate the blade thickness I don't think it needs to be hinged in any way, ideally I can cut the bottom piece just a fraction of a degree out of square to keep the top of the jaws lightly sprung allowing the saw to stay put while the vise is tightened.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I am planning to build one based on this design as well, however even simpler. Since the jaws only need to open enough to accommodate the blade thickness I don't think it needs to be hinged in any way, ideally I can cut the bottom piece just a fraction of a degree out of square to keep the top of the jaws lightly sprung allowing the saw to stay put while the vise is tightened.

I assume by no hinge, your talking about a solid piece in the bottom then, rather than two connected pieces? 'Cause if you're just talking two unconnected boards, well, that works, but ends up being a hassle to get everything aligned and then the vise tightened! (This is experience talking.)

i ended up making that vise but using maples jaws that taper upwards, similar in shape to a metal vise. So at the very top I think the jaws are maybe a 1/4" thick on each side. This is nice because it allows me to keep the saw low in the vise, but use the full length of the file while still using a handle - on smaller files, this thicker jaws of the style of vise pictured interfered with getting a full stroke unless I had a handle that could hold the file way out at the end of the end of the tang, and putting a guide block on the end of the file often reduced the stroke further.

Whatever you do, before you hammer the bits together, check how it fits your saws - I had to take mine apart because I didn't think to notch out the jaws enough to clear the handle on some smaller saws while still being able to clamp on the teeth way at the handle end.


Those jaws came off another vise that I made that was designed to work attached to my saw bench - it worked well enough, (except I never put a finished clamping bit in there so it needed hand clamps to work) but with longer saws, it became difficult to slide over to be positioned in front where you were working without repositioning the saw, (which was annoying) because the seat and the vise were the same surface.

[David Kuzdrall]

Joshua, I do intend to simply glue the bottom piece on, two unjoined boards would be a handful.

do you have any pics of your vice?

[Mike Allen1010]

Here are some pictures of my first shop built saw vice. I've since built a couple other iterations.

266821266820

I like the shop built vices because you can get an entire 26 -- 28" saw plate clamped at one time and you can tailor the height of the tooth line for less bending over -- key for avoiding the backache that comes easily (at least for me) with sharpening saws!

I have a twin screw face vice and one of the reasons I chose it is because the saw vice fits right in between the two screws and is easily secured to the bench.

I use the thickest Baltic Birch plywood I can get for the body of the saw vice and some hard maple at least 2" wide for the jaws. I use "C" clamps along the maple jaws to keep everything tight (it also makes it easy to take the saw vice out of the face vice and flip it around without the plate moving in the vice).

A few thoughts, for what it's worth.

All the best, Mike

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I like the taller version you've got going on there, Mike. Makes sense. I've been doing my filing sitting (not too bad with the right seat) but I'm thinking I'd like to try a setup for standing. My original setup used clamps to aid things, and it was frustrating, but when you can get the whole plate in it like that, it's not really a hassle at all. I can do all my backsaws in one setting, and the rest of my saws in two, but getting it in one would be nice.

My vise is even simpler than the simple one LN shows - I don't have cleats, I sized it to be at a good working height just sitting on the bars of my Jorgensen vise.

I'll try and find a camera around here and grab a photo.

[Patrick Harper]

Well, I was able to resolve most of my issues by simply lowering the saw in the vise a bit more and tightening things down a little more. I decided to joint until the teeth were about halfway down. I think this really helped in evening out the teeth, but they weren't too far off to begin with. I have a few more teeth left to shape at the toe, and then set/sharpen.

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[Patrick Harper]

The cutout for the handle is clever.

Anthony Guidice details a similar clamp in vise jig (http://books.google.com/books?id=faue8Ea4r4QC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=anthony+guidice+sawvise&source=bl&ots=3gcZQ4Ul3r&sig=AenZRFd0OfbJOZPLvQgr9F6M8Ng&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oTDpUeeTEpKs4AOr5YHwCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=anthony%20guidice%20sawvise&f=false), with
a piece of bicycle innertube glued to the business end and a piano hinge at the bottom joint.

I bought a Grammercy vise. No fiddling, no fuss and it cost less than sending my saws out to sharpen.

(I don't see very well, so the clamp really helps elevate the teeth to a height where I can get a magnifying glass in position.)

I put chalk on my files because that's the way I was taught.
Supposedly that helps as a dry lubricant and mitigates squealing.

All my best saws "sing" a little when sharpening them.
The dogs, they don't howl much - I suppose we're hearing something about the way the steel is tensioned.

Jim, how do you like your Gramercy vise? Also, do you mind me asking how much you paid? I noticed that they're now $170. Most of the reviews I've read quote the price at $120, but they were from a few years back. $120 sounds reasonable, but I'm not so sure about $170.

[Patrick Harper]

Anyone out there have experience with the Gramercy Vise? I was thinking of picking one up, but I'm not sure if it's worth the current $170 asking price. Most of the reviews I've read were positive, but they're all from a time when the piece was selling for around $120.