Man I sure do love my Festool ATF55

[Scott Coffelt]

I slapped another sheet of birch ply on the workbench last night and began to cut down for the next cabinet on my list. In the past I would have used my Dewalt CS and dust would have been everywhere and the plywood would have been chipped up, so I would have cut larger and then trimmed with a router. I've not had too many occasions to use this yet, but I know why I bought it after last night.

Last night, marked my lines and set the guide rail place. Fired up the mini-Fein and the ATF55, a nice quick slice and 99% of the dust gone into the vac hose. Unclamp, move on to next cut. No wrestling the wood or the saw...clean cuts, that's the ticket.

Checked the cut for squareness, right on. Life is grand. I need to order a larger supply of plywod for the build, I think I'll just stage everything in my garage on go. Then carry down into the basement shop.

Of course note to self, make sure you cut on the correct side of the line....DAMHIKT. Now if edge banding was this quick.

[Frank Pellow]

For those of you who may not know it, the ATF55 is a Festool circular saw.

General Reminder to Folks: Please don't just use part numbers and expect folks to know what you are talking about.

[Tyler Howell]

I feel your pleasure Scott, It's a great tool.
For those of you who may not know it, the ATF55 is a Festool circular saw.

General Reminder to Folks: Please don't just use part numbers and expect folks to know what you are talking about.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Scott - I share your enthusiasm for the Festool ATF55, or as some refer to it the GCSS (Guided Circular Saw System). I bought the Festool setup a couple of months ago, and used it to make several MDF garage cabinets for a client that wanted them made that way. Moving several sheets of MDF from my pickup truck directly to sawhorses, and then cutting them to final dimension on the first cut was by far the easiest and fastest experience I have had cutting up sheet goods. This 66 year old back complains when moving 4X8 sheets of MDF, which is especially heavy. Wrestling those sheets onto a table saw is too much any more. The Festool ATF55 made the work quick and easy. I was able to cut three stacked sheets at a time, making the job go much faster. Try that on a table saw.

[Scott Coffelt]

Edited the title line. Sorry 'bout that folks.

And please, this is not to start anything between companies.... we've been through that too many times. Just praising the right type of tool for the job.

[Steve Roxberg]

Scott,

When you price your sheet goods get a quote from Liberty Hardwoods. They will deliver it into Overland Park for free with at least a $400 order.

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks Steve, I've already done that. They had the best price in town for sheet goods. Doesn't take too many sheets to get to $400 these days. Considering that I need about 90 total sheets in varies thickness of Birch, Maple, Cherry & Baltic to complete all cabinets and a California Closet design.

[Bob Noles]

Thanks Steve, I've already done that. They had the best price in town for sheet goods. Doesn't take too many sheets to get to $400 these days. Considering that I need about 90 total sheets in varies thickness of Birch, Maple, Cherry & Baltic to complete all cabinets and a California Closet design.

Scott,

With 90 sheets to cut, how did we ever get by prior to the GCSS?

[Chris Padilla]

Sound good, Scott, and I concur with your findings. I got the little bit bigger Festool (ATF65)...it is quite wonderful...the dust collection is so awesome.

[John Harris]

For a rookie here...what is the big difference in this Festool circular saw. I understand it has good dust control and a guide sytem. Any thing else?

[Chris Padilla]

Riving knife, plunge saw, depth control, angle control.

[Scott Coffelt]

There's been long debates about these versus the standard old CS. Yes, there are many different options out there in the market from building your own straight edge with Hardbaord and a straight-edge to basic clamp type systems from a number of folks to a system approach with Festool and EZ.

A guide system can improve accuracy (not always but usually) over home made ones as they have been machined to tight specs. My original one was a couple of boards, which require a perfectly straight starght edge to be accurate... someone mine wasn't. They have been designed to reduce/eliminate chipouts from the blade. This particular system has a plunge saw with it that allows you to more easily control the cut. As mentioned the dust collection is also improved over most other methods. All of this doesn't come cheap regardless of who's system, but you do get what you pay for....

The real beni of a system is the ease of cutting sheet goods. You move the tool not the wood... which often helps make straighter cuts for most of us... excluding those with really nice sliding tables and euro-saws. So I hop ethat helps without trying to start some major debate over who's is bigger, better,etc.

As far as Chris's statement... he has the Festool ATF65 which cuts a little thicker board than the ATF55. If one was to cut a bunch of 2x material, one might want that extra thickness. I have a Dewalt for that kind of manual work.

[Scott Coffelt]

Bob, without a large shop and serious set up.... it would not be possible for me in any reasonable time frame, thus the decision to go with the tool I bought. Since it was deisgned for professionals in mind... I figure it don't get much bigger of a job than that.

[Dave Falkenstein]

For a rookie here...what is the big difference in this Festool circular saw. I understand it has good dust control and a guide sytem. Any thing else?

John - Scott and Chris covered many of the benefits of the Festool system, but please allow me to elaborate a bit. The key difference in the guide rail is that the circular saw sits ON the guide rail, not against it. It is virtually impossible for the saw to wander off the cut line. The blade runs up against a hard rubber zero clearance strip that is an integral part of the guide rail. You get no chipout on the keeper side of the cut, and in most materials you get no chipout on the scrap side. Since the cut is made at the zero clearance strip, you draw a line on the material and lay the guide down on the line - that's exactly where the cut will be made. This method is far faster and more accurate than cutting with "old fashioned" guide accessories. The Festool approach is truly a system, as there are several tools that work with the guide rails, and just about all of the tools interface with the dust collector.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Hey folks...

I couldn't disappoint Frank by not chiming in here.;)

Just to clarify, Dave's comment : "The key difference in the guide rail is that the circular saw sits ON the guide rail, not against it. " applies to other systems as well, John. Notable among these (the subject of some recent discussion) is the Eurekazone SmartGuide. The same holds true for the other attributes such as being part of a system approach.

Regards,
Paul

[Rudy Fuselier]

I am sure this is gonna hurt. But, about how much does this system cost? I know-- If I have to ask I probably can't afford it.

[Frank Pellow]

I am sure this is gonna hurt. But, about how much does this system cost? I know-- If I have to ask I probably can't afford it.
Check out: http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=P2561086&ID=3

$700, and that is just for starters. If you buy it, you will soon find yourself adding additional guide rails and all kinds of stuff. :D

[M. A. Espinoza]

Thanks Steve, I've already done that. They had the best price in town for sheet goods. Doesn't take too many sheets to get to $400 these days. Considering that I need about 90 total sheets in varies thickness of Birch, Maple, Cherry & Baltic to complete all cabinets and a California Closet design.

I use Paxton out of habit. They are who my former employer used and just got into the habit.

How did the prices compare to Liberty? They run to Lawrence a couple of times a week I think vs. 5 days a week for Paxton and the $250 minimum for free delivery.

Saving money never is a bad thing.

[John Harris]

Thanks, guys. Ballpark of what these systems are running?

[Dave Falkenstein]

Hey folks...

I couldn't disappoint Frank by not chiming in here.;)

Just to clarify, Dave's comment : "The key difference in the guide rail is that the circular saw sits ON the guide rail, not against it. " applies to other systems as well, John. Notable among these (the subject of some recent discussion) is the Eurekazone SmartGuide. The same holds true for the other attributes such as being part of a system approach.

Regards,
Paul

Paul - My comments about the way the Festool system works are not intended in any way to infer that Festool is the ONLY tool manufacturer with this guide system approach. I am aware of the Eurekazone products, but have not used them myself. it would be interesting to hear from someone that has used both systems for a comparitive analysis.

[Greg Mann]

I am sure this is gonna hurt. But, about how much does this system cost? I know-- If I have to ask I probably can't afford it.

Of course that $700 Frank quoted also includes a superb vacuum. The system will work with other vacuums as well but this package is a good place to start.

[Greg Mann]

Riving knife, plunge saw, depth control, angle control.

Missed one, Chris. Variable speed, internal overload control. Okay missed two. ;)

[Greg Mann]

Bob, without a large shop and serious set up.... it would not be possible for me in any reasonable time frame, thus the decision to go with the tool I bought. Since it was deisgned for professionals in mind... I figure it don't get much bigger of a job than that.

Scott, I interpreted Bob's question as very sincere. As in true wonderment; "How did we get along before..."

[John Lucas]

Scott,
I have enjoyed the Festool plunge saw and guide rail system for almost two years and many, many panels. I can only speak for that system when I say it is so accurate and with such good cuts that further working in the shop is totally unnecessary. I am sure there will always be other systems which will be measured against the features of the Festool System. That is the way it should be. Festool is the leader in the Systems approach and I am sure there will be attempts to unseat it. Meanwhile, there are a lot of Festool owners who are enjoying woodworking better every day...or every panel.
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fest-216.jpg
Karla making her first Festool plunge rip cut.
www.woodshopdemos.com/ men-fes.htm

By the way, we get panels delivered for free and they stack the panels on the panel cart which means that all we ahve to do is to tilt a panel over to the worktable and let gravity do the work.

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-5816.jpg

Here Beth starts to tilt panel over to the worktable. From http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-58.htm

[Steve Roxberg]

I use Paxton out of habit. They are who my former employer used and just got into the habit.

How did the prices compare to Liberty? They run to Lawrence a couple of times a week I think vs. 5 days a week for Paxton and the $250 minimum for free delivery.

Saving money never is a bad thing.

Since I found Liberty I don't even call Paxton's for a quote. Schutte now and again, but never Paxton they are just too expensive for the small guy.

I don't like their $32 birch ply, although all it took was a phone call to complain and they refunded 100% of the cost of the sheet, and mailed me a check. I also got to keep the sheet, but I don't know what I'll do with it. It delaminated on the edge and looks like a Home Depot 2x4. In their defense, it did appear to have been the bottom sheet in a full stack and it was pretty abused before I got it.

They are very, very good.

[Scott Coffelt]

I use Paxton out of habit. They are who my former employer used and just got into the habit.

How did the prices compare to Liberty? They run to Lawrence a couple of times a week I think vs. 5 days a week for Paxton and the $250 minimum for free delivery.

Saving money never is a bad thing.

Paxton's was about 25% higher at least, Schutte falls in between. I've not bought from Liberty yet but have done much business with Paxton's and Schutte.

[Scott Coffelt]

John, Thanks, I totally agree with you and also enjoy your demos.

As far as the ATF55 pricing, much depends on if you have a vac or not. I had Fein, so I was able to use it, so my system cost me about $500 which included some extras (2nd 55" rail, deflector, clamps, connectors, etc.). It is expensive for most people, but in my eyes totally worth every penny. Also, I do not want to get in a debate on the virtues of other systems here (i.e., EZ). They all have there place, and one can search the archives here and find tons of posts comparing the two.

[Dino Makropoulos]

John, Thanks, I totally agree with you and also enjoy your demos.

As far as the ATF55 pricing, much depends on if you have a vac or not. I had Fein, so I was able to use it, so my system cost me about $500 which included some extras (2nd 55" rail, deflector, clamps, connectors, etc.). It is expensive for most people, but in my eyes totally worth every penny. Also, I do not want to get in a debate on the virtues of other systems here (i.e., EZ). They all have there place, and one can search the archives here and find tons of posts comparing the two.

Scott.

Remember my first post in SMC? :rolleyes:
Let me see if i can find it. :)

[Scott Larson]

This thread needs more pics :-)

Here is a look at a ATF55 setup
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw70/festoolcut2sm.jpg

and here is an example of the cut quality
http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albuw70/Festoolcut3sm.jpg

I received my first festools (saw and vac) as a wedding gift. While I wouldn't have bought them at the time, after using them I'd certainly buy them again (with my own money).

Great tools (although not to suggust the same results couldn't be achived by other means, i.e., ez system).

-Scott

[Dino Makropoulos]

John, Thanks, I totally agree with you and also enjoy your demos.

As far as the ATF55 pricing, much depends on if you have a vac or not. I had Fein, so I was able to use it, so my system cost me about $500 which included some extras (2nd 55" rail, deflector, clamps, connectors, etc.). It is expensive for most people, but in my eyes totally worth every penny. Also, I do not want to get in a debate on the virtues of other systems here (i.e., EZ). They all have there place, and one can search the archives here and find tons of posts comparing the two.


On the other hand...there is nothing to debate.
I'm stuck with my Fiat for good. :cool:
It was designed by Pininfarina.
http://www.pininfarina.it/ginevra2005/new_siteprev.html :cool:


you guys are asking for it. :D :D :D

[Paul Berendsohn]

Paul - My comments about the way the Festool system works are not intended in any way to infer that Festool is the ONLY tool manufacturer with this guide system approach. I am aware of the Eurekazone products, but have not used them myself. it would be interesting to hear from someone that has used both systems for a comparitive analysis.

Well, I know that we're teetering on the edge of the seemingly eternal "F vs E" battle Dave but I did use the Festool system myself and decided to buy a SmartGuide (I now have two complete systems, plus a SmartRouter system and a SmartTable and paid for them all for the record). I've never looked back, or regretted a penny (by the way I believe my total investment is roughly what a basic Festool setup would have cost me) and the more I use it the more confident I am that I made the right decision.

Certainly there are plenty of threads here to research but if any of the parties are interested in more info I'm happy to oblige.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Please, spare us.
per

Now now Per, I expect better than that. Funny, perhaps I'm mistaken but in reviewing the thread I don't see anyplace I've been snotty or impolite to anyone. Is my opinion less valuable than yours Per? And some folks wonder why I'm especially concerned that Dino's products get a fair shake here... hmm.

[Dennis Peacock]

I hear ya Scott.....The ATF55 is a really nice saw. The guiderails are great as well. It's hard to beat. :D

[Dennis Peacock]

Paul,

I have BOTH the E & F setups......and I love the BOTH!!!!!! :cool: :D

That's as far as I get into this battle area. :p ;)

[Dino Makropoulos]

Well, I know that we're teetering on the edge of the seemingly eternal "F vs E" battle
.

Paul. Thanks for the help, but this time Frank was right. :rolleyes:

[Per Swenson]

The outright huckstering of this product.
It reduces us all to that base level flea market pandering.
You want Dino to get a fair shake? He does.
And as I have said before, I hope he makes a killing.
Want to help him out? Take your digital camera and start
taking pictures of you and your ez-smart in use on your projects
and post them in your thread.
You are welcome to click on my profile and visit my web site to
see that I am in fact a real working finish carpenter.
You see, Of all the forums I like this one the most.
Because it seems everyone has a general interest in helping others.
Not blatant product sales.
Thank you for your time.
Per

[Ken Salisbury]

PLEASE ! !

A reminder from SMC Terms of Service:

"Disagreements are almost certain to occur. Members shall be respectful of dissenting opinions and refrain from name-calling, personal or professional attacks. Messages that contain critical content must provide all factual information pertinent to the problem and enough data to support any claims or complaints."


Violations of the above will be summarily deleted.


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

[Gary Herrmann]

I've got the EZ guide. Been very happy using it with my Milwaukee cs. Some day I'd like to get some Festool tools as well (I really like the idea of the dust control). They're both good systems, they just have different price points. I'm not a pro by any means - just make things for my own enjoyment and for family and friends. So take my opinion for what its worth - probably not too much. :rolleyes:

[Dino Makropoulos]

I've got the EZ guide. Been very happy using it with my Milwaukee cs. Some day I'd like to get some Festool tools as well (I really like the idea of the dust control). They're both good systems, they just have different price points. I'm not a pro by any means - just make things for my own enjoyment and for family and friends. So take my opinion for what its worth - probably not too much. :rolleyes:

And when you deside to go for ANY saw and for ANY reason. For ANY router and ANY other portable tool... No problem.
And your opinion worth more than ALL and ANY of the above. :cool:

[Paul Berendsohn]

Paul,

I have BOTH the E & F setups......and I love the BOTH!!!!!! :cool: :D

That's as far as I get into this battle area. :p ;)

LOL... I know Dennis, we've discussed this before you and I. Frankly I don't know why anyone would raise a dissenting opinion here, do you? :rolleyes:

[John Stevens]

For a rookie here...what is the big difference in this Festool circular saw. I understand it has good dust control and a guide sytem. Any thing else?

In addition to what others have mentioned, you won't have these problems Jeff mentioned in this post on the "Alternative to Jointing" thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=182299&postcount=16)--


Different circular saws will run truer than others. My Dewalt for example produces a glue ready joint probably about 90-95% of the time. There is a touch of play in the guide base, there has to be or it won't slide. So if I put enough pressure in one direction, I can make a saw mark happen.

The play between the Festool saw and guide rail, when properly adjusted, is virtually nonexistent. There's no detectable play, the saw still slides smoothly, and it leaves a surface comparable to what you'd get using a table saw. Glue-ready surface 100% of the time, with no fuss.

Then there's the outstanding post-sales service and support, which is built into the price of the tool. I've never experienced better customer support for any product, ww tool or otherwise.

Hope this helps.

[Scott Coffelt]

Boys we're on a slipery slope here... one I was not intenting to go. Just wanted to say I was pleased with my purchase and glad I finally got to use what I bought a number of months ago.

Let's not get personal on our callouts here, nor debate too deeply. :rolleyes: Let's just say there are a number of options and one must do a little personal research, take in account their own financial well being and expected uses, buying habits etc. Then make their own decision.

I probably could have kept my joy to myself, but hey I just wanted to spread a little joy for all to share. :D

[Jay Knoll]

Disclaimer

I own and use Festool products, purchased them for reasons that aren't worth repeating -- well, maybe they are -- I didn't have a great saw, vac or sander and not a lot of shop space so the "system " approach seemed great to me. If I had great hand tools that I could have attached to the "E" guides, then maybe another alternative would have made sense -- anyway that's what I've got and I'm extremely happy with them -- is this the alternative to buyer's remorse? Buyer's glee? I'll take it any day!

It seems to me that we can argue all day about what tool is in our shop or what car is in the driveway

What we do with them is more important than owning the item

I love looking at Per's work, I'm looking forward to trying that bar finish on a desk top that is in my "going to build it some day project list

Jay

[John Stevens]

What we do with them is more important than owning the item

Agreed, which is why I can't see the value of a naked tool gloat. But if there's one thing I learned while I was an amateur bike racer it's this--you can drive yourself to your peak fitness and skill, but before you even get there you'll find yourself limited by the quality of your equipment, regardless of whether you're a hobbyist or a pro.

I'm an amateur woodworker, and a beginner at that, but my time is no less valuable than that of any professional woodworker. I don't spend time in my workshop simply to forestall boredom because I have no personal or family life. I'm there because, at the end of the day (or week or month) I want a concrete result that is useful and beautiful. I come to this forum to learn about tools and skills that will allow me to use my limited time to produce the best results, with the least frustration, given the skills I'm developing. IMO the extra money I've spent on my Festool tools has saved me a lot of frustration and time, and it's threads like this that led me to take the chance and pay the price of admission.

[Edited to add title]

[Ron Taylor]

I REALLY want one of those, but it has to be further down my list of desires.
In the meantime, this will have to get me by...

[Bob Noles]

Boys we're on a slipery slope here... one I was not intenting to go. Just wanted to say I was pleased with my purchase and glad I finally got to use what I bought a number of months ago.

Let's not get personal on our callouts here, nor debate too deeply. :rolleyes: Let's just say there are a number of options and one must do a little personal research, take in account their own financial well being and expected uses, buying habits etc. Then make their own decision.

I probably could have kept my joy to myself, but hey I just wanted to spread a little joy for all to share. :D

Scott,

Seems like I walked into the same thing a few weeks ago with my post from the other side. All we wanted to do was "share the excitement" and stired a hornet's nest instead.

I know you enjoyed your experience as much as did I, even though we used different products. I am so glad we have these wonderful vendors out there and that we have a choice for what works best for each of us.

Hoping your GCSS continues to please you as well as mine has me and may each cut be as exciting as the first for each of us.

[Bob Marino]

As most know, I am a Festool ISA as well as a SMC member. I have stayed out of the fray, very rarely interjecting myself into the F vs E discussions nor encouraged others to do so on Festool's behalf. I think both are worthy systems. However, I just have a different take on how someone connected with a company should behave when making a post/reply regarding that tool or a competitor's product.
I beleive it is a manufacturer's or sales rep's place to offer advice and/or correct or clarify a statement regarding his product. Not to jump in and issue challenges, direct links to their site or extoll the virtues of their products, especially on a thread about their competitor's product. I think things like that are better suited to PM's. But that's my take on things.
I am not 100% sure why the F vs E posts seemingly almost always turn into an argument, but I suspect this is at least a part of it; others will think differently. That's what makes horse races.
And honestly, this is not a question of sour grapes on my part, but a thoughtful (I hope), though admittedly not completely unbiased assessment of this situation.
And this is not to tell anyone how to moderate/run/manage the forum or whomever to refrain from posting whatever, because this is a great forum, with plenty of great and thoughtful folks, using all sorts of great tools!
I do not wish to stoke any fires, nor insult or slight anyone and this will be my last comment on the issue. As a member who really does like SMC very much, who has learned more than he has contributed, I'd like to pass on these thoughts and observations, get it off my chest, so to speak.

Bob

[Paul Berendsohn]

Thank you for that Bob, as a frequent participant in the "F vs E" brawl.
I think many of your points are well made, and you may recall I've attempted to make some of them myself.

Personally I have nothing against a good debate, even a heated one. My original background was in engineering. One of the principles of scientific inquiry is the need to defend your beliefs in the face of opposition and dissension.

I've never taken offense to any debate, no matter how fiercely it may rage. It's sad I think that we (the generic "we" not you and I) can't have a good ole fashioned disagreement without it turning ugly. Heck, I'd bet that if you and I met, we could sit down over an adult beverage and have quite a nice chat.
Have a good afternoon!

Paul

[M. A. Espinoza]

I beleive it is a manufacturer's or sales rep's place to offer advice and/or correct or clarify a statement regarding his product. Not to jump in and issue challenges, direct links to their site or extoll the virtues of their products, especially on a thread about their competitor's product. I think things like that are better suited to PM's. But that's my take on things.

Bob

Cheer to Bob.

To any of the users that own both EZ and Festool:

When you're ready to sell one, send me a PM.

They both seem like they work. It still seems like Festool makes the best saw on the American market, but that could change.

[Dave Falkenstein]

To Bob Marino - Thanks for your thoughtful post. Now if we can help Paul and Per to get along, everything would be fine. Yes, I'm smiling.

PS - Who wants a Fiat anyway? Still smiling!

[Chris Padilla]

It still seems like Festool makes the best saw on the American market, but that could change.

I would stand hardily behind this but I would put emphasis:

"...Festool make the best dust-catching saw on the American market..."

That alone was the main reason I went the Festool route. All the other stuff that comes along with Festool, well, that is fine too.

I wanna see someone using a Festool CS on an EZ guide!!! :eek: :D :eek: :D

:p ;)

[John Lucas]

I wanna see someone using a Festool CS on an EZ guide!!! :eek: :D :eek: :D

:p ;)

Why? Was this a serious statement. The Festool guide rail and the Festool saw are designed as a system. I can't imagine using the saw without the guide rail. The Festool guide rails are so straight that I use the long one for edge jointing. Freud advertises the "Glue line rip" I can't say yea or ney to their product but I can say that I get glue line rips all the time when using the Fesstool plunge saw and guide rail system. It is a system.
By the way, Bob Marino put my "glue line rip method" to a test a month or so ago. He brought me some "ugly" rough boards and I edge jointed them for him.
Here is that story: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-53.htm
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-5323.jpg
It is not just a plain rip but a bit of a setup. Fact is, it is quicker to do this edge jointing than using my long bed jointer...which I havent used for 2 1/2 years.

[Ken Salisbury]

I wanna see someone using a Festool CS on an EZ guide!!! :eek: :D :eek: :D

:p ;)

If you had been to the Swap Meet you would have seen just that - Dino actually used a Festool CS in the demo of his system. He is not an anti Festool person as some seem to think he is :)

I believe this is a Festool router on the EZ Guide - which is actually a picture from Dino's web site - just to make my point.

http://www.eurekazone.com/photos/flyingrouter/eurekazone_1500crop.jpg

[John Lucas]

If you had been to the Swap Meet you would have seen just that - Dino actually used a Festool CS in the demo of his system. He is not an anti Festool person as some seem to think he is :)

I believe this is a Festool router on the EZ Guide - which is actually a picture from Dino's web site - just to make my point.

http://www.eurekazone.com/photos/flyingrouter/eurekazone_1500crop.jpg


Ken,
I haven't followed this thread as close as I should have. All this time, I thought "CS" stood for circular saw. But if a router makes your point then what does "CS" mean? Inguiring minds and all that jazz.

[Paul Berendsohn]

I wasn't at the swap meet John, but my understanding from those that were is that Dino demo'd a Festool circ saw on the EZSmart guide rail. Why would that be desirable? Well, not to assume I know Chris' (or Dino's) thoughts but I know there are those of us who believe the EZSmart has significant advantages. So for those who favor the Festool saw it would be the proverbial "best of both worlds". As to the additional illustration on Dino's web site (again not to play clairvoyant) but I'd bet it's to give lie to the perception that Dino is (as Ken has put it) an anti-Festool person.

If I am mistaken in my interpretation of any of the above person's intents in their comments my apologies and I'm sure a correction will be forthcoming ;)

Paul

[Jack Diemer]

I feel compelled to step in and break the tie between the E vs F debate. Since I have neither system I will be act as an impartial judge. Dino or Bob, which ever of you sends me a free sample 1st, wins. :D :p

[John Lucas]

I wasn't at the swap meet John, but my understanding from those that were is that Dino demo'd a Festool circ saw on the EZSmart guide rail. Why would that be desirable? Well, not to assume I know Chris' (or Dino's) thoughts but I know there are those of us who believe the EZSmart has significant advantages. So for those who favor the Festool saw it would be the proverbial "best of both worlds". As to the additional illustration on Dino's web site (again not to play clairvoyant) but I'd bet it's to give lie to the perception that Dino is (as Ken has put it) an anti-Festool person.

Paul

Paul, thanks but the words just don't match up. Ken presents a photo with a router that "...supports the thought that a Festool Plunge Saw (a CS) can benefit from the EZSart system." I would like to see the photo of that rather than a router (not a CS) on the EZrail. When the moderator/owner of this fine forum speaks, I really would expect more accurate and less commercial words. I suggest this product line (EZSmarts) would be a great candidate for one of the Manufacturers Forums. I am a Festool user and post on this Forum and the Creek before it but refrain from the commercialism that I think is rampant here. My 2 cents.

[Paul Berendsohn]

LOL... Well certainly Ken doesn't need me to defend him but, as someone who has been censured (more than once) I doubt very very much Ken had any intention of shilling for anyone.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Would someone please explain why anyone would want to use a Festool CS on an EZ guide rail?? The Festool CS is designed to work with the Festool guide rail with no adapters and no play. Why would you add an adapter and use it on another guide rail? Maybe it simply proves a point that the EZ guide rail adapts to lots of CS's???

[Paul Berendsohn]

Well Dave... as I stated above, my strong suspicion is

"Well, not to assume I know Chris' (or Dino's) thoughts but I know there are those of us who believe the EZSmart has significant advantages."

But I stand ready to be corrected if I am in error as to their reasons :rolleyes:

[Scott Coffelt]

Apples and oranges here.

I will not get in a peeing match on the rails here (OK maybe a little pee), I think it is a contest that will not be won by either. If you buy into the system approach on either, then the EZ appears to be a great set-up for those that have all the tools (CS, Router, etc) already and are perfectly happy with them and their associated dust collection/lack of in some cases. The EZ adapts the tool to the rail. Thus it maximizes your previous purchases.

The Festool setup is for those that want to buy into their philosophy of highly engineered tools designed specifically to work with the rail as a system. I am sorry EZ guys, there will never be anyway to convince me that the EZ is a Tool System, it is a rail system only with adapters to adapt tools. The Festool is a Tool System, engineered to work together as just that... vac, hose and tool and matched rail system all tied together as a System.

Now, it would totally amaze me why someone would want to buy the EZ and the Festool tools separately then combine. Can it be done, sure be it defeats the purpose of what Festool is centered on, not what EZ is centered on.

Personally, I have made cuts on both rails. No I have not made a cut with the ATF55 on a EZ rail... no plans to EVER. I personally like the one I bought better... that was my choice/decision/etc. Does it say that the EZ is not at the same quality... that's for you to decide not me to make the choice for you. Will they do the same cuts, angles, routes, etc. I guess, though I know my ATF55 will cut the exact same spot at any degree tilt...and my Dewalt didn't, thus I would have to set my rail differently... to me a major advantage of what I bought.... will other saws do better at this....probably/maybe/no??? So if I am buying a CS, buy one I know will accomplish my task accurately, throw in computerized speed control based on material being cut, awesome dust collection for a CS, perfectly aligned to run on a rail with no flex and precision accuracy... thus my decision.

I've not had a chance to use my OF1400 Festool Router yet with the rail, so I can not comment yet on how it set's up... but I know John has, so he may respond to that... but the CS is all that I ever wanted for a tool.

Now I have to go wipe myself off after I dribbled :rolleyes:

[Chris Padilla]

Didn't you guys notice the obvious flagrant use of smilies in my post?? That statement about using the Festool CS on an EZ smart guide was purely tongue-in-cheek. Lighten up, Folks! :)

One thing to note about these Festool vs. EZ squabbles is that they are almost comparing apples to oranges as Mr. Coffelt alludes to. YCF Dino doesn't sell powertools last I checked. Festool does but also sells its own guide system.

Funny thing, I happen to have both the EZ and the Festool system. The sad thing is that I've only marginally used the Festool system and the EZ is still in the box YCF Dino sent me. :(

I hope to correct that this summer. I'm sure both systems will have advantages over the other. Oh, and maybe I'll look into trying out my Festool CS on the EZ guide!!!!! :eek: :D :eek: :D ;) :p (got it?)

:rolleyes:

[Scott Coffelt]

Mr. P,

Your about as bad as me for having nice tools that I needed only to hav them sitting nice an pretty in their boxes.

How's that garage, er' I mean shop coming along... no updates lately....

[Dave Falkenstein]

Well Dave... as I stated above, my strong suspicion is

"Well, not to assume I know Chris' (or Dino's) thoughts but I know there are those of us who believe the EZSmart has significant advantages."

But I stand ready to be corrected if I am in error as to their reasons :rolleyes:

Paul - Wanna give me a hint as to what those advantages might be when it comes to the guide rails???

PS - I love my Festools.

Scott - you will REALLY like the OF1400 router on the rails. Extremely solid guide setup, very accurate, and decent dust control.

Chris - Your tounge might have been in your cheek, but I'm not so sure about some of the other posts on the same topic. Smile.

[Chris Padilla]

How's that garage, er' I mean shop coming along... no updates lately....

Slowly but surely...I should snap a few pics to revive my thread or I'll never catch Frank P.'s numbers.... ;)




Chris - Your tounge might have been in your cheek, but I'm not so sure about some of the other posts on the same topic. Smile.


:p Really? No doubt I'm a HUGE Festool fan but I actually bought Dino's system before UPS showed up with Festool boxes galore. :rolleyes:

Actually, I have no plans to buy any of Festool's routers and I want to use Dino's guide for my routers and non-Festool CSs. :cool:

[Paul Berendsohn]

You know Dave... I started to write a rather lengthy post with some examples before I deleted it in light of the fact that we both know (I strongly suspect) where this is heading.

This exact argument has raged on here often enough that if you genuinely want to consider the pros and cons you can surely research them yourself from past threads. We all know you're in Camp F and I'm in Camp E, so this isn't going to produce anything more than what Scott has termed a "peeing contest".
To be honest I'm personally tired of that type of contest in this venue since it inevitably turns ugly and I'm just tired of being insulted. But I will tell you what I'd find fascinating. If there's a Festool owner in CT that feels like coming by my shop I'd be more than happy to lay em side by side, provide some stock to play with and let anyone that wants to join us compare and contrast for themselves. Fair nuff? I'll even buy the beer (after the cutting's over of course ;) )

[Dave Falkenstein]

You know Dave... I started to write a rather lengthy post with some examples before I deleted it in light of the fact that we both know (I strongly suspect) where this is heading.

This exact argument has raged on here often enough that if you genuinely want to consider the pros and cons you can surely research them yourself from past threads. We all know you're in Camp F and I'm in Camp E, so this isn't going to produce anything more than what Scott has termed a "peeing contest".
To be honest I'm personally tired of that type of contest in this venue since it inevitably turns ugly and I'm just tired of being insulted. But I will tell you what I'd find fascinating. If there's a Festool owner in CT that feels like coming by my shop I'd be more than happy to lay em side by side, provide some stock to play with and let anyone that wants to join us compare and contrast for themselves. Fair nuff? I'll even buy the beer (after the cutting's over of course ;) )

Paul - OK by me to drop the subject. I did try doing a Search here the other day, and the results made my head hurt. Way too many threads, most of which are unrelated or only a little related to what I was hoping to find. The Advanced Search feature isn't any more help. I did not see the earlier threads on F vs. E, so my query about the guide rail comparison was genuine. It really does not matter to me personally what the advantages of one guide rail is over the other, because I have already made my decision. It was more of an "intellectual" interest. I, like another post, find it difficult to believe that anyone would buy a Festool CS and then put it on a different set of guide rails. Discussion over on my side. BTW, I try hard not to offend anyone. I'm in AZ, so I cannot take you up on your offer. Thanks.

[Paul Berendsohn]

OK Dave, you know what? Maybe I made a mistake in assuming you and I couldn't have a rational discussion in light of what my experiences have been in the past. I also am very much of the "intellectual curiousity" bent so that being the case why don't we try it? I'll try my best to condense this and keep it on track.

I used a Festool myself prior to buying and no argument it's a fine product. I was actually thisssssss close to buying a Safety Speed (I think is the name?) panel saw because there were aspects of the Festool I didn't care for when I literally stumbled over the EZSmart on Ebay when I did a search for "panel saw". For the Nth time (for your benefit as you and I haven't conversed before) I am not an employee of EurekaZone, I have no financial interest, nor have I been compensated in anyway. Yes, I have become friends with Dino (hey I'm a likable guy) and yes I have gone to bat for him here and elsewhere numerous times, period end of story...

Based upon my observations, as well as comments made to me by both Festool owners and SmartGuide owners:

1) The SmartGuide rail has a more precise and robust joining system. It has been reported by Festool users that they have experienced a "bump" where their sections join*. I have never experienced, nor heard reports of such a phenomena on the SmartGuide.

2) From my recollection of the Festool guide, (as well as comments posted by users*) the SmartGuide has much more readily replaceable edges. Let's face it, they have to be replaced sooner or later on either system.

3) The SmartGuide will cut to either side of the rail equally. Therefore I never need flip the rail and if I damage my guide on one side (as ummmm... I have done :confused: ) I just use the other side.

4) I haven't seen the Festool/SmartGuide hybrid, but I assume it is mounted on the SmartBase (which is of course an integral part of the system). That being the case, it has anti chip/splintering protection to either side of the kerf. I am well aware of the claims made by some that the Festool saw gives them virtually no splintering etc etc, however I have heard just as many users say they have encountered splintering problems on delicate materials*, a problem I have never encountered, nor heard reported from SmartGuide users. (as an aside, the SmartBase gives me antisplintering protection on both sides of the kerf even off the rail)

5) The SmartGuide has a much "beefier" and more rigid cross sectional profile. The advantages insofar as rigidity and durability I think are obvious. (I'm happy to have a structural engineer, who is admittedly a family member, compare photos of the cross sections and make a judgement ;) )

6) The clamping system used by the SmartGuide is much more sophisticated and versatile than the clamping system offered by Festo. I'm well aware of the antislip nature of the Festool system, but my experience of anti slip materials in general is that they lose effectiveness with age, and will often need to be augmented by clamps.

OK... no doubt this will be enough to throw some gasoline on the bee's nest so I'll stop here for the moment.

(* Asterisks reflect where I have seen significant reports of these issues from Festool users, so before I get barraged by those telling me it never happens to them, I'll be pleased to post comments from Festool users substantiating these claims.)

I'm going on the assumption that you and I are going to have a polite, logical discussion Dave, so that being the case I'd be happy to discuss it more should you be so inclined.

Paul

(edited for the typos that always seem to come from nowhere)

[Frank Pellow]

Slowly but surely...I should snap a few pics to revive my thread or I'll never catch Frank P.'s numbers.... ;)

Chris, have we got some sort of a contest going? :confused: ;)

[Greg Mann]

Paul,

If I get all my Festool loving friends to swear on a stack of guiderails that they have no issue with Eurekazone will you agree to give this thing a break? :rolleyes:

[Frank Pellow]

Paul,

If I get all my Festool loving friends to swear on a stack of guiderails that they have no issue with Eurekazone will you agree to give this thing a break? :rolleyes:
I have no issues with Eurekazone. I would even like to try (acquire?) the system some day.

[Per Swenson]

I swear on my 26 feet of guide rails,
that I do not have a problem what so ever,
with the ez smart guide system.
Really.
Per

[Dave Falkenstein]

Paul,

If I get all my Festool loving friends to swear on a stack of guiderails that they have no issue with Eurekazone will you agree to give this thing a break? :rolleyes:

I swear on my stack of three Festool guide rails that I have no issue with Eurekazone. I tried to stop the thread!! Hopefully this is the end.

[Ken Salisbury]

Ken,
I haven't followed this thread as close as I should have. All this time, I thought "CS" stood for circular saw. But if a router makes your point then what does "CS" mean? Inguiring minds and all that jazz.

CS is "circular saw" - I was just making the point that he uses both a Festool CS and a Festool router to demo the EZ Smart Guide Sys.

[Ken Salisbury]

Paul,
I would like to see the photo of that rather than a router (not a CS) on the EZrail.
To my knowledge a photo of Dino using the FS CS at the Swap Meet was not taken. Anyone who was there can verify that he did demo one. The photo I referenced in my earlier post was only to emphasize a point that I do not think Dino is an "anti Festool" person.



When the moderator/owner of this fine forum speaks, I really would expect more accurate and less commercial words.
A point of clarification please !!! Yes, I am a "moderator" on this forum, No, I am not the "owner". In addition I am a SMC "member" and have been so since the very inception of SMC. So, having said that and wearing 2 different hats I make posts both as a member and also as a moderator. When doing so I use 2 different signatures one of which is http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif. The other is the one at the bottom of this post. Having approx 60 years experience as a hobby woodworking every now and then I think I have something to add to the various discussions which take place here and will continue to do so. I am very diligent in identifying my comments as either a regular poster and as a moderator by the use of 2 different signatures.

I believe my comments have been both accurate and non-commercial

p.s. If anyone believes I should refrain from comments on EZ/Festool or any other issue/discussion here can volunteer to moderate this forum and I will move to a more active role as an experienced woodworker. :D

[John Lucas]

I was just making the point that he uses both a Festool CS and a Festool router to demo the EZ Smart Guide Sys.

As well he should. Always nice to demo with the best and try to get product identity that way. Since the Festool plunge saw has a superb Festool guide rail to make perfect cuts, other than for his demos, I can't see anyone using the Festool Plunge Saw with anything else other than the Festool guide rail. The System works and works well.

[Walt Pater]

I'm pretty sure that my blue chalk line snaps straighter than your red one.

[Paul Berendsohn]

As well he should. Always nice to demo with the best and try to get product identity that way. Since the Festool plunge saw has a superb Festool guide rail to make perfect cuts, other than for his demos, I can't see anyone using the Festool Plunge Saw with anything else other than the Festool guide rail. The System works and works well.

Now now John... You're going to upset the peace negotiations we have going on here. The DEFCON (Da Eurekazone Festool CONtroversy) level was down to two overnight and now I see it is back to four. The whole issue here of course is the repeated claim that Festool is "the best". Many hundreds of SmartGuide owners would differ. Besides which the implication that Eurekazone is trying to somehow ride Festool's coattails is just silly under the circumstances.

In spite of that, let's continue the peace process shall we?

[Dino Makropoulos]

As well he should. Always nice to demo with the best and try to get product identity that way. Since the Festool plunge saw has a superb Festool guide rail to make perfect cuts, other than for his demos, I can't see anyone using the Festool Plunge Saw with anything else other than the Festool guide rail. The System works and works well.

Mr Lukas.
Few years back, I was ready to sell all my patents to a multi Billion $ CO.
I walk out from the Final meeting when I saw the real intentions behind the sale. To that CO the Ez smart system was perfect to create a "monopoly"??? and used to stop other small companies with guide rail systems and tools.

Another European Co send me a 5M dollars working "production prototype"
CS to be addapted to the EZ guide rail in order to have the supreme guide system in EU and US. And they asked for exclusives.

If you visit our website you can see a Festool router on the photo gallery.
Do you really think is a good idea to exclude Festool from the EZ Smart ???
That was the same goal and thinking of the "Previously" potential buyers.

Do you think I should keep Festool out from our patent Pending Ez Features?
Or make it available to them?
To me, ALL festool users are smart people and potential EZ customers. And the same time , ALL ez smart users are potential Festool customers.
Remember the last few threads?
Can the EZ replace the table saw? Not the Festool. The Ez.
My answer was YES.
And remember Scott asking for a smart clamping system for his Festool Guide?
My answer was YES.
Now, can you see who is the REAL Festool Friend?
Because I can even go farther and name Paul as better Festoolian than all of you. :D :D :confused: :rolleyes: :cool: ( I need them all here)


My best Regards.
YCF Dino

[Dino Makropoulos]

Now now John... You're going to upset the peace negotiations we have going on here. The DEFCON (Da Eurekazone Festool CONtroversy) level was down to two overnight and now I see it is back to four. The whole issue here of course is the repeated claim that Festool is "the best". Many hundreds of SmartGuide owners would differ. Besides which the implication that Eurekazone is trying to somehow ride Festool's coattails is just silly under the circumstances.

In spite of that, let's continue the peace process shall we?


Paul. Just to clear the air. Eurekazone and me was always in peace with ALL.
And I don't think we need to negotiate something that is good for ALL.
Let me enjoy my coffe and give a brake to Ken.
PEACE TO ALL. Including you Paul.
YCF Dino

[Glenn Clabo]

As well he should. Always nice to demo with the best and try to get product identity that way.

John,
I don't understand why you would say something like that and not think you would kick the hornets nest and get everyone all stirred up again. Comments like that make it perfectly clear that you think anyone who doesn't go Festoll is stupid...and that's when I must draw the line and speak up.


Since the Festool plunge saw has a superb Festool guide rail to make perfect cuts, other than for his demos, I can't see anyone using the Festool Plunge Saw with anything else other than the Festool guide rail. The System works and works well.

Here's why...I didn't go with the Festool system because I had a CS and because I don't do this for a living I decided to go with the system that would fit my budget by utilizing the tools I have. Tough decision? Not for me...or my wallet. The added bonus of Dino's customer care, his care about this forum, AND most importantly how amazingly easy to use and accurate his system is should be applauded...not blasted.


Now...to get on with your answer...Some day my Milwaukee may turn to dust and I may be on the market for a new CS. When I go through the process of deciding what that will be, like it was for my choice now, I WILL include the Festool CS (and I will go to another supporting member of this forum to get it btw) which has been proven to work with the EZ Smart system. I, like Dino, am NOT anti-Festool. I think the "system" of tools is awesome (I even like the color!)...but I also think those aircraft carrier planer/jointers are also. I just don't think I can justify the cost. Some people, like me, really like good beer, good wine, good food and good friends so thats how we spend our available funds. Does that compound how you feel about me and my stupid decisions?

My father once said...There's a reason why there's so many paint colors...you never know who picked out the one you don't like...so it's best not to bad mouth any within ear shot of other people.

[Mark Singer]

Just make something instead of talking.....post it in the Design Forum and I will tell you what I think of it...unless it is really bad and then I will tell you about the beautiful weather here in Laguna...

There is way too much focus on brands......Versache or Dolce Gabana....no Channel...., does it really matter if the lady weighs 400 pounds?

[Keith Outten]

To All,

I watched Dino's SwapMeet demonstration with great interest. If you know anything about me you know that I am not afraid to purchase the most expensive tools or the least expensive. I purchase what I consider to be the best value. Sometimes the best value is also the best quality tool. In the case of the Festool guide vs Dino's Smartguide Dino's guide is by far a superior product. Dino's guide is much stronger and less apt to flex thoughout any of the wide variety of tools that can be used with the guide.

Dino demonstrates his system with a variety of manufacturers tools. He uses the Festool Saw and Router because he believes they are popular and one of the best in the marketplace. Dino also demonstrates with Porter Cable, Ryobi, Delta and several other manufacturers tools to show that his system is adaptable to almost any tool.

Clearly the Festool saw and router are just awesome, but that doesn't mean that the entire product line is the best in all cases. I don't take sides in any of these types of "Mine is better than yours" types of discussions. I did watch Dino's demonstration and compared both guides side by side, the difference in quality was not even close.

While it is true that Dino has been a major supporter of SawMill Creek so has Festool. Festool has been most generous in providing FreeStuff tools for our drawings. I don't believe that Ken Salisbury is promoting either product as a Moderator, but he certainly is pleased with the Smartguide system as a woodworker and has the right to include his opinion as do you concerning this issue. If our Staff are not allowed to participate then why would they give so much of their time to keep SMC running for all of our members to enjoy. I know the feeling as every time I post a message or start a thread I feel less of a woodworking member here because of my status and must be more carefull than most.

I have said this a hundred times, "Woodworkers are often very protective of tools and equipment that they feel are an excellent value". Wisdom dictates that we all accept this as fact and recognise we all have the right to disagree so there is no point in arguing or debating the virtues of any tool or system. Each member should just listen to the opinions of others and take what wisdom each feels is valuable then discard the rest. Discussions here at the Creek should not be competitive in nature, each should be informative and enjoyable.

For the record I have been taken down a notch or two many times and I don't take it personally. In fact most of the times I have been challenged I truly was misguided or simply didn't think my position carefully enough before posting. I clearly am an old dog who is still trying to learn a few new tricks :)

In the future we should all try to keep on topic and not to infringe on someone elses thread. Simply put this means that if someone starts a thread about how much they love their Unisaw it is not the place to dicuss SawStop equipment. This will end 99% of the discussions that tend to become argumentative.

Scott, I am sorry that your thread got out of hand. Your comments concerning how much you enjoy your Festool CS and guide system will remain the approved topic for the rest of this thread.

[Glenn Clabo]

As always...a calming voice from the west. I think it just may be the weather causing this. I just noticed that there is really something those old people called the sun...and it's still in the sky!

[Mark Singer]

Glenn....its only a saw after all ....not the sun or a great cup of coffee....do we really care what kind of brush Monet used? Was Mozart composing on a Steinway or a Schimmel....? Don't tell me my Armani Suit was sewn on a Mitsubishi.....Excuse me while I check the Latte on my Livia 90....

BTW...I don't have an Armani suit


As always...a calming voice from the west. I think it just may be the weather causing this. I just noticed that there is really something those old people called the sun...and it's still in the sky!

[Jay Knoll]

Re reading this train wreck of a thread I see that it all started when the EZ comments were injected into the thread. Why do we permit that? It would be just as bad if another member talked about their EZ use and F comments were injected.

Frankly, Scott tried to keep us on track with HIS thread, and others hijacked it. I think they should apologize. Can you imagine being at a cocktail party and saying I love my car and someone else starts putting you down because he doesn't agree with you? We wouldn't do that in person, so why do we put up with it here?

If someone wants to start a shoot out, they can start their own thread, but I don't know why we have to jump on each others views.

I can't imagine the amount of grief one of us would take if in reply to a picture of a project, they started in on something like ..............

"oh that is a crummy job you should have done it the way that (insert SMC accomplished woodworker's name here) don't you know how to make a decent joint?

And by the way, that finish is terrible, I hate your design and the wood you used in unattractive"

The outrage would be awesome to observe! So what is different if one of us espresses his satisfaction with the tools they own?


Frankly, I think that Paul should apologize for taking us off topic, and Dino should not interject his product views into someone else's threads (as should the festoolies in here around EZ threads)

[Paul Berendsohn]

Scott,

As one who was largely responsible for the turn the thread took, my apologies as well. What started out in large part as a joke/good natured gibe at an earlier accusation ultimately derailed the thread. Let's shake hands and move on.

(This was written prior to Jay's post. Frankly Jay, if you reread the thread touting Dino's planer adapter* you will see why exactly I did "butt in". My apology to Scott stands, but the reality is that there's more to it than me jumping in to deliberately hijack a thread...)

*http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=20522&page=1&pp=15 - post numbers 7, 11 and 25 to be precise

[Dave Falkenstein]

Perhaps my persistent nature coupled with my lack of prior exposure to the apparently long-running debate on F vs. E (or E vs. F) led me to provoke a discussion that led this thread off-topic. For that I apologize. I swear on my stack of nothing-but-high-quality-tool owners manuals that I will never again knowingly contribute to leading a thread off-topic. I do hope we are all still friends.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Every forum I have been on has certain topics that really provoke debate among members. For whatever reason the GSSS are one of them.

I think the debate is fine, I can say that I like EZ better than F or F better than EZ and here is why.

I can not say, you are an idiot becuase you like EZ or F. If we could all just debate without the name calling, it would be fine.

[Jay Knoll]

Jeff

I agree that debate is fine and name calling isn't.

However the point I was trying to make was that the post wasn't a call for a debate, it was one person's view on his personal experience. That was it. The thread should have stayed on that topic, not off onto another tangent.

If one of us wants to start a debate, then we should start another post with that point clearly in mind. Let's see how about "F vs E shoot out"

Then anyone can jump in and got to town.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Jay,

I agree with your point that it shouldn't have been taken off topic. However, it seems like nothing in a forum stays "on topic" :)

IMHO, if someone did start a post "F vs E shoot out" it should be promptly deleted or locked. No sense in inviting trouble :)

I feel we are pretty much on the same page here :)

[Greg Mann]

There's been long debates about these versus the standard old CS. Yes, there are many different options out there in the market from building your own straight edge with Hardbaord and a straight-edge to basic clamp type systems from a number of folks to a system approach with Festool and EZ.
(Emphasis added by Greg Mann)

Way back in post #12, Scott, the originator of this thread, made a comparison between the older techniques and the modern. It sure appears to me that he basically put both Festool and EZ together in the modern camp. This was, by the way, the first reference to EZ in this thread, one in which they were equated rather than differentiated. If this had been acknowledged at the time much dis-harmony could have been avoided. It was a class move on Scott's part. Unfortunately, it went either unnoticed or ignored.

Greg

[Peter Stahl]

I'm pretty sure that my blue chalk line snaps straighter than your red one.

I'm glad to see this F vs E debate is coming to a close but what about that Walt thinking his Blue chalk line is better than my Red one! Now that really bugs me!!! ;)

[Frank Pellow]

I'm glad to see this F vs E debate is coming to a close but what about that Walt thinking his Blue chalk line is better than my Red one! Now that really bugs me!!! ;)
Neither one of them is nearly as good as my orange chalk line. :D

[Scott Coffelt]

I am so mad at all of you..... NOT! As Greg mentioned I was only trying to comment on how much I enjoyed the product to complete a task easier, safer and more accurate than had in the past. So Kudo's to the product. Yes, later I also mentioned that this particular task could have easily been accomplished (cut wise) by a similar brand, though I had some other reasons for my decision on a prduct purchase.

Mr. Singer always with a well thought out wise comment (not the other wise) but wise in knowledge. The topic is how a tool helped me do a task. Anyways, I think in general debates are great. I do wish folks would avoid making a debate out of brands when the intention was to talk about a specific task... now if one was to say, well you now that same task could have easily been accomplished by doing X. I see that more relavent. to the conversation than debating whose got a better rail.

Anyways, we can let this die at any time if we want to continue to talk about the F vs E. If we want to talk more about other ways of completing this same tasks, then that could be of great value.... may even stir up a debate on why one feels a guide system is prefered over another method.

Paul and others, one suggestion, on topics you know that have resulted in heated discussions in the past, it may be wise to think before we type and imagine what the mightly word might spark... humour is not always easily picke up on in forums.

[Mark Singer]

Scott,
Thank you!

When you are really building....often you grab whatever is closer, without care of what brand and sometimes without care of what purpose the tool was intended to serve....because you are driven to execute your thought ....your ideas...this is really the mood and feeling...I have great tools and I am still learning to use them....but that feeling! .....I love that feeling...That is what its all about...I drive around miss my exit...forget to call someone....Why?...I have details and design in my head....a constant dialouge...more interesting than the esoteric trival differences that exisit between this brand and that....go for the feeling! and those of you that know the feeling.... know what I mean....


I am so mad at all of you..... NOT! As Greg mentioned I was only trying to comment on how much I enjoyed the product to complete a task easier, safer and more accurate than had in the past. So Kudo's to the product. Yes, later I also mentioned that this particular task could have easily been accomplished (cut wise) by a similar brand, though I had some other reasons for my decision on a prduct purchase.

Mr. Singer always with a well thought out wise comment (not the other wise) but wise in knowledge. The topic is how a tool helped me do a task. Anyways, I think in general debates are great. I do wish folks would avoid making a debate out of brands when the intention was to talk about a specific task... now if one was to say, well you now that same task could have easily been accomplished by doing X. I see that more relavent. to the conversation than debating whose got a better rail.

Anyways, we can let this die at any time if we want to continue to talk about the F vs E. If we want to talk more about other ways of completing this same tasks, then that could be of great value.... may even stir up a debate on why one feels a guide system is prefered over another method.

Paul and others, one suggestion, on topics you know that have resulted in heated discussions in the past, it may be wise to think before we type and imagine what the mightly word might spark... humour is not always easily picke up on in forums.

[Phil Winn]

Home Depot' own brand of paint brush...I saw him there just this weekend :)
ha-ha-ha...
Phil




Glenn....its only a saw after all ....not the sun or a great cup of coffee....do we really care what kind of brush Monet used? Was Mozart composing on a Steinway or a Schimmel....? Don't tell me my Armani Suit was sewn on a Mitsubishi.....Excuse me while I check the Latte on my Livia 90....

BTW...I don't have an Armani suit

[Steve Clardy]

Neither one of them is nearly as good as my orange chalk line. :D

Well Frank. I think yellow is best. Lol
Now for some more coffee. Took a lot to read through all this.
Steve