Issues with both Laguna and MiniMax regarding their Bandsaws

[Frank Trinkle]

Please excuse the long post, but I gotta get this said!

I am frustrated right now. I'm in the middle of finalizing a number of purchases to completely update my woodshop with what I am calling "Lifelong" tools. This involves replacement of virtually all of my current floor machines with high quality (meaning expensive) tools that I am convinced will last me for as long as I can walk, stand, or crawl to operate them.

Of these machines, I have determined that I want two bandsaws. One that will take blades as narrow as 1/16" for scroll work on large items, and a 16-20" saw that will be dedicated primarily to resawing. Up until July 1st, I had pretty much settled on purchasing a Laguna 14X14 SUV for the smaller saw, and a Laguna LT20 Italian for the larger one.

Over the last three months, I have been in contact with Tim at Laguna, basically settling on what I was choosing. He recommended that I send in a deposit primarily for the LT20 to insure that I would get one out of their shipment sometime in August or September, which fits my timeframe as I won't be back in the USA until September, and then only for about five weeks. (I work in Africa on a six-weeks on, six-weeks off schedule). This would supposedly also lock in my price. Tim told me there would be no issue with the 14SUV as they always had plenty of stock. I asked Tim to please send me an email with instructions on how and where to send a deposit, and he agreed. I got NO email. I called again about three or four weeks later to get some additional info, and again asked him for not only the same info by email, but also for some info on the products themselves. AGAIN NO EMAIL or FOLLOWUP! Tim's a nice guy, and we've had some great conversations, but now... if I decide to still purchase these Laguna models, Tim has cost me an additional $800+ by not following up!!! Laguna raised their prices on bandsaws on 1 July. I was in Africa when this all came about and never got an email or other notification that this was about to happen. What really ticks me off is that Torben raised prices on the LT20 by more than 12% and the 14SUV by around 10%. PLEASE JUSTIFY THAT!!! The LT20 saws are made in Italy where the Euro is the base currency. The U.S. Dollar has been climbing against the Euro for the last six months, and is currently at two year highs and getting stronger. The dollar against Asian currencies has been climbing even stronger. At the same time, the inflation rate in the USA based on the Consumer Price Index is currently below 3% per annum. So HOW does Laguna justify a 10-12% increase in the cost?? If anything, the price should be going DOWN! That all being said, I am now looking at other options...which brings me to MiniMax...

I got a PM from Erik of MiniMax who had been reading my other posts regarding my upgrades, and suggested that I might consider MiniMax as an option to Laguna. Fair enough. So I went to MiniMax's website to take a deeper look. That was a total waste of time. Specs listed were minimal, and a lot of the videos were non-functional. That states quite a bit about lack of attention to detail. Furthermore, there are absolutely no prices listed on any of the products. And by the way, when you DO shoot a video of a tool's features, you don't have to show the SAME CUT IN REAL TIME, FOUR TIMES!!! Showing one leg's cut, or one veneer cut is PLENTY...don't waste our time!

To MiniMax: This is 2013, not 1989! In the early days of the Internet's World Wide Web, many companies didn't ever list prices so that potential customers would be FORCED to interact directly with a salesman before being "allowed" to get information. 99% of those companies learned that was a BAD practice and abandoned the high-pressure tactic. Apparently, MiniMax has not learned this lesson. As a matter of principle, I will NOT deal with a company that won't be transparent in their advertising and provide information that their potential customers are researching. What are you hiding?? People today do not have the time or the desire to have to go beyond the net in order to do initial research and due diligence. While your company may make a good product, I want to be able to get all the info I need from the net...and then if I have questions, I'd be happy to call you or request email info. C'mon folks... come on up to the 21st century! And while I'm at it, Yahoo Message Boards are NOT the place to run a forum. It's just about as archaic as MS-DOS. (Felder Owner Group is also guilty of this). You want to get with the times? Take a look at the Festool Owner's Group forums, or even right here on SMC. No one likes getting emails, or even daily compilations of the latest posts. That's what the WEB is for.

So... I'm now in a quandry. Some of MM's stuff "looks" good, but can't be convinced by their site info alone, and I refuse to be forced into a situation where I have to "talk" to a salesman to get information that should be readily available. On the other hand, I am totally ticked off at Laguna for not following up with me, and now forcing me to make a decision to spend an additional $800 for two products that I could have locked in if only Tim had followed up appropriately with info on how to send a deposit.

I hope that this post is read by both companies, and gives them an idea of the frustration they cause when they either ignore their potential customers, or when they show that a lack of attention to details is causing customers to back away.:mad:

[Sam Murdoch]

I went through a bit of a frustration when I bought my Laguna bandsaw. Made all the arrangements including ordering a mobility kit and some blades, all as one purchase order. The bandsaw finally arrived - about 6 days later than I was told to expect it (oh well) but the mobility kit was not with the rest of my order. I e-mailed my salesman (my version of Tim) to ask him about the wheels and he writes back to say that - oops, sorry, we don't have those in stock right know. They are back ordered for 4 weeks but will send one out as son as they come in. - This was the first I heard of this and that meant that I was not to receive the rest of my order for at least 6 weeks. :mad:

Lots more back and forth to this story but the upshot is I stopped talking to my "Tim" and went directly to a sales manager. He was much more able to help and very agreeable. I would think that the price increase notwithstanding, if you had a quote from a Laguna rep, they will - very likely (I think) - honor the original price quoted. You just need to talk to the right person. Can't speak to the MiniMax issue.

Good luck. And yes, let them know that they are being discussed in a very public woodworking forum.

[Dan Blackshear]

Hi Frank. I can understand your frustration. In the day of instant communication across the globe and any information you want usually at your fingertips it can be frustrating to not find what you need when you want it. While I cannot speak for the customer service you got from Laguna (which sounds less than optimal but seems to be typical based on other posts here) I can say that while like you, I did feel that Mini Max's website could be much, much better, I did get all of the information you are looking for by clicking the request pricing info on their site via email within a few hours.

I cannot say for sure why they do it this way, maybe it's to avoid some of the frustration you feel with the other company changing their prices and they decided it's easier to update a price sheet that gets sent out rather than update a web page when prices are subject to change based on economic conditions. I do agree though it seems kinda silly to not have the tool specs listed on the web site, those should stay the same.

Is it the way things are typically done in this day and age? No. Does it cost them some sales? Probably. It's the business model they use though while you may not agree with it, I think it's a little short sited to write off what could be a lifelong tool because you have to contact them for additional info.

Another thing to consider is the fact that someone representing the company contacted you when they saw what you were looking for based on your posts in a forum. To me that indicates they are listening to this part of their customer base, or at least seeing what we have to say. There are a few tool company reps that watch these forums and in my opinion has only resulted in a positive reaction to their companies. Maybe that whole "Gotta deal with a person instead of a web-page" isn't so bad. Which brings me to another question, could you have just purchased the saw through Lagunas' website and avoided the delay and the price increase and put in the comments when you wanted to take delivery? If it's more complicated then that, then it sounds like you are going to have to deal with a person anyway. Why not send in the request for info and get a contact?

Again, I'm sorry you are having such a bad experience with Laguna, when you are dropping a ton of coin and building that dream shop you want everything to just kinda fall into place and make you feel good about it, not frustrated. But at the same time don't let a less than optimal web page sour the deal either. Oh, one more thing. In the email I got from Sam when I requested the pricing info, he did inform me that bandsaws were 10% for the month of July due to AWS, so I wouldn't wait too long.

[Stephen Cherry]

The solution is pretty easy. BUY USED. That way you can look at the machine, take it for a test drive, and see if you like it before you buy it. Plus you generally get lots of freebees with it, such as a bunch of blades.

For example, I bought my 24 inch agazzani for about 2200 (?). This was a very lightly used machine, and included two carbine blades, and a bunch of smaller. The transaction is as simple as an inspection, cash changing hands, and a handshake and bill of sale.

I agree, if you want to sell to hobbyists, you should have a website with details and prices. How else will you know if you want and can afford a machine.

[David Weaver]

Personally, I'd give my business to MM if the costs were similar and Laguna let you hang out to dry for $800 and then didn't honor the commitment they made. It's that easy, I wouldn't reward them with *anything*. You don't need a special saw to run a 1/16" to 1/4" blade, just about anything out there used will do it just fine.

For the big saw, I'd get the minimax. I only ever bought one thing from laguna, a $175 waste of money resaw king that never was right. Laguna might have some nice stuff peppered in among other stuff that's not that great, but why bother hassling yourself with it?

When I talked to various companies at IWF several years ago (buddy and I were there looking at sliders), the guys from the minimax booth were personable and not at all pushy.

[David Kumm]

At the end of the day it is the machine that is important. The MM20 is the resaw machine. Heavier with a stouter frame than the ACM 20. They have a crappy website but a slick site doesn't make for a slick machine. There are also lots of used 24" or larger machines out there. I wouldn't trade my 1936 Oliver for any new saw. Dave

[Jeff Monson]

Seems like I read a lot of threads concerning Laguna and poor customer service, its too bad they don't want your money. I'll also agree that Minimax does need a webite update. I will attest to seeing their products 1st hand they do have nice bandsaws. Have you considered Felder?? You will get great customer service, I can promise you that. The new FB510 would fit your 20" need, not sure on the 14" though.

[Phil Thien]

I'd talk to Jesse at Eagle Tools about Agazzani bandsaws.

Agazzani bandsaw site:
http://www.agazzani.it/agazzani-gb/bandsaws/bandsaws.html

Eagle Tools site:
http://www.eagle-tools.com/index.html


Warning: Jesse can be a bear to get ahold of. He has a very loyal following, because he does what he says he will do.

In fact, when Inca pulled out of the US market (sorta), Jesse bought-up all the parts/supplies of Inca gear from the other Inca vendors, to make sure he'd have parts to take care of his Inca customers. That is dedication to your customer, in my estimation, that is hard to match.

[David Kumm]

Felder sources larger saws from ACM. The Hammer and FB series are more in house. they are very nice for the price but are price point driven and not a true resaw capable machine. Both the new Panhans ( replacement for Aggi ) and the MM are a step up. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

I think Erik has explained one reason why it is like it is, so I won't single out MiniMax or Laguna. What I will say is when you start looking at bigger, more pro level equipment having to talk to a sales person is the norm, not the exception! Wether we like it or not, it is the way it is. Things are changing slowly but surely, I've seen some pricing for companies like Martin, SCM, and Felder online. But many of the lesser known companies you still need to call.

Now as to lifetime bandsaws.....that's of course going to come down to personal opinion. I couldn't imagine buying any of the affordable saws out there as a lifetime saw. I'd be more inclined to look at an older Tannewitz, Oliver, or even some of the older European made machines out there. I know used isn't for everyone, but I find I get much better quality for my money there....YMMV;)

Lastly as the others have eluded to, make sure you buy the right machine for you based on the machine. If your convinced one machine is better for you than the other, but you don't buy it b/c of a crappy website or lousy CS you may well regretting it for a long time. If you still have your heart set on the Laguna I'd call and talk to the same salesperson you spoke with before. If they're a stand up company they should take care of you and sell it to you for the pre-increase price.....at least I think they should:o

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Oddly, if you go to the SCM site, you can get more info there on MM machines, unless its changed, than on the Minimax USA site. I'm a window shopper, a tire kicker, a tool junkie, I like to look...and review, and dream, and compare......It irritates me that their site isn't better given the parent companies stature in the pro wood working market and the quality of their offerings at every level. But it's a small thing really. I signed up for info, it was sent immediately, I was never harassed or given a hard sell. Wound up buying a used minimax privately, still like to peruse the info.

On the prices....it's not a grocery store or a Walmart. They are selling machines. I don't know any industrial companies that post prices online. Felder will give prices (not saying they are industrial, just similar to MM), but you have to sign up, and they will call you. For years. Erik says no prices is to avoid confusion. You would probably be more than just confused if you got a price for a machine in Pesos, did the currency conversion....I'm not a gambler, but I'd be willing to bet the markup is a lot lower there than here. Thats a pretty standard practice, markup higher in more wealthy countries than developing nations. But it is the world we live in. I certainly wouldn't be trying to buy a machine in Juarez and have it shipped here to save a few bucks. The net makes some things simpler, some things less so. The sellers are used to having all the information in a transaction, the net has largely changed this, now buyers have more info than ever. Here is an increasingly rare case where the seller chooses to retain their pricing info. Their goal is to maximize profits, giving you more information on pricing in different markets rarely accomplishes this. They don't want "parity", where prices should fall in the long term, they exist today. THey want to sell at the highest price each market will bare, and they will put up barriers to prevent you from crossing the border to achieve a lower price. I would too. Well, thats my .02.

On the Laguna thing......thats all I have to say about that.

Fact is I enjoy working wood more than I like setting up shops or picking out the perfect machines at this point. I get the emphasis on picking out those perfect machines during the set up phase, and how it becomes a game or a goal of its own. My advice, step back and let some air out of the balloon. It's not like picking the surgeon for a transplant. Its just a BS. They all cut pretty good, the prices are all pretty similar at each level, the market and the vendors have seen to that. Minimax makes really good tools. I've used a few at this point. I've never bought one new, but its pretty painless to get the info you require, and of all the companies I researched of that type when setting up, they were the least intrusive. You wrote that you were speaking to Laguna, I'd suggest you take a chance and do the same with minimax.

[Erik Loza]

One thing just occurred to me: Frank, not sure if you were aware but AWFS Vegas is right around the corner and that would be a great place to see all your target machines in person and actually kick the tires. Especially since it sounds like you are considering a CNC, the cost of the trip seems like it could be a wise investment toward making the choices you want.

Just my thoughts,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I love my MM24. Only one with a chain driven guide post. Doesn't get clogged with sawdust.

[Sam Murdoch]

My impression with the Laguna issues is that the sales staff ARE NOT ALLOWED any leeway in dealing with customers. There is a severe lack of imagination or of a "yes we can do that" spirit that separates a great company from all the rest. It is not just enough to have a good product. I and Frank (the OP) should not need to go over the heads of the contact salesperson to get satisfactory results. Listen up Laguna!

Having said all that - my very recent experience with Laguna came out very satisfactorily (after bypassing the salesman and speaking only to management) AND, I am very happy with the bandsaw and the Resaw King blades of 2013. The product is excellent. I don't think Laguna is the nightmare customer service company of years ago. They just aren't finished with their evolution. Too bad! It's their loss - yes there are other machine choices out there...

[Jamie Buxton]

That's a weak argument. Car companies have figured out how to do this. You get your Canadian pricing from ToyotaCanada.com or the like, US pricing from ToyotaUSA.com, and Mexican pricing from ToyotaMexico.com. The three countries can have different pricing structures, have different tariff structures, and have different shipping costs. And of course, the prices are quoted in different currencies. Not a problem.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Frank, since you returned, did you ask Tim whether Laguna would still be willing to sell you the saws at the price they quoted you before?

[Eric DeSilva]

I seem to have had a different experience than a lot of other folks, so I'll relate it for the sake of balance. As a preliminary note, I'll say that companies can and do change, and that my experience may have been the result of one particularly good sales person at Laguna and one particularly bad sales person at Minimax. But I'll also note that I approached dealing with Laguna with some trepidation, since there were a lot of people that had previously had bad quality control issues with their equipment. Based on my research, they seemed to be turning a corner, so I put them on the list and they eventually won me over. Frankly, I had a great customer experience with Laguna and they were very accommodating--personalizing the promotion that they had running to twist it to fit my needs and never being pushy. I had a slight shipping issue where a cosmetic piece was damaged, and they sent a new one out no questions asked. The guy I dealt with discussed the other options I was looking at and gave me some good pro's and con's to think about, but really didn't have bad things to say about any of the products I was considering.

That was a sharp contrast with my Minimax experience. Erik, many, many companies seem to be able to offer country-specific pricing for multinational websites--when I shopped Minimax, I was left with the definite impression that the registration hoops I had to jump through to get the information I wanted were largely for the purpose of delivering my contact information to a high pressure sales person. Now, I may have had the one bad apple at Minimax, but the rep I talked to was more concerned with telling me how bad Laguna was and how poor their products were (including telling me things that were outright wrong) than answering my questions about their machine. They was no willingness to work with me at all in terms of sweetening the deal, or even telling me when they might have a promotion where I could save some money. At the end of the day, when I told the Minimax rep that I was going with Laguna, he pretty much insulted me on the phone--accused me of wasting his time (which was funny, because he was the one incessantly calling me, not the other way around) and then concluded by telling me that some people can't appreciate the difference between a Mercedes and a Dodge. Honestly, it was about the worst customer experience I've ever had.

At the end of the day, I've been very happy with my 14SUV and been very impressed with the fit, finish and performance. And Minimax so turned me off that I doubt I will ever purchase a piece of equipment from them. Your mileage may vary.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Erik, FWIW, I upgraded my major power tools about a year and a half ago. These days, I never buy any product from a company whose website asks me to call for pricing, and my tool purchases were no exception. (That ruled you guys out.) I agree with Frank that in 2013, there's really no legitimate reason not to put pricing on your site. If the currency issue is the only thing holding you back, then I would encourage you to get a new web designer who can help you work through that issue, because it's really not that difficult.

[Eric DeSilva]

Erik, you're making a presumption that isn't valid, and in some ways it mimics the tenor I was getting dealing with the other rep, although the amplitude seems much more moderated. I may be in a funny position, but I care less about the net amount I'm spending versus the value I am getting for my money--I didn't have a budget. Your rep was unable to articulate to me any value proposition in the MM16 or MM20 for me, both of which were on my list (along with a number of other products in the Laguna line and in the lines of some other companies), because he didn't seem to care about what I actually wanted the saw for.

The way I shop involves collecting information, educating myself, and then deciding--for my particular circumstances--whether the value add of higher priced products are things that warrant me spending additional money. In part that is a process that involves finding out why products are priced higher, and in part it involves me spending a lot of time thinking about how I was going to use a particular piece of equipment. The MM rep didn't help me in that process--mainly he spent his time manifesting the attitude that real woodworkers need Italian bandsaws and Asian saws are crap (frankly, I was just starting my research, so if the website had been decent, I wouldn't have been talking to him at all for fairly straightforward information). In some ways you are making the same mistake he did--the only axis of comparison you bring up is whether you "can only afford an Asian 14" saw." I can afford any saw I want, but I'm not going to buy something just because some company tells me all the cool kids have Italian saws when the benefits of that saw aren't going to manifest themselves for what I do. So I'll be a straight shooter too, and tell you that maybe your first question ought to be "what do you want to do with your bandsaw" instead of "how much can you afford."

[David Weaver]

There is value in estblishing personal contact on something at that price level. Like getting exposed to leftover machines, getting offers that you wouldn't have otherwise, etc.

Esp. if you're a slow buyer and not particularly attached to one brand vs. another.

[David Kumm]

I'm a bean counter in real life so price vs value is a big deal, but I would never use the same criteria for purchasing high end stuff as commodity machines. When you get to the really high quality stuff, price is about the fourth level of priority so not having it listed is irrelevant to me. I would much rather know the details of the build quality and if I could request one thing of companies it would be to detail the machine spec's, not the price. Motor efficiency, source and quality of electronics, Source and ABEC of bearings, thickness of steel, diameter of head, a million other things that to me are lacking and more important. Most of the sales guys have no clue about many of those items. ( Erik excepted ). Dave

[Frank Trinkle]

With respect, if you are speaking of Felder, that is not 'exactly' true. If you register on their site, either in Europe or the USA (which I have done on both), and then log in, ALL prices are then shown online, including accessories. I have used their system without ever having had correspondence or any other type of communication to research their products, prices and delivery methods without hassle. It is how I have chosen to outfit my shop with a Hammer A3-41 16" Jointer/Planer.

Yes, I have received an occasional email from them offering to assist if I desired, but that is pretty acceptable, because it was only an offer of ADDITIONAL help if needed to decide. I was able to fully glean all the info, specs, and pricing online from the company's site, and I pretty much made my decision made from that info.

I am also glad to hear that you have "gigabytes" of videos etc... because entering "MiniMax Bandsaw" on YouTube brings up no more than four or five videos of your bandsaw products, and most of those by a Canadian Woodworker who only really demonstrates resawing... no actual demos, or descriptions of saw features.

Nonetheless, I am currently in Germany and going back to Africa next week. You are welcome to send me info on your Bandsaws, and I will give the info a fair look. At this point, I am still leaning towards Laguna and didn't see anything on your website's info that would cause me to question that. I like Baldor motors, and Laguna's LT20 has a 6HP Single Phase in their 20" vs. your 4.8 unknown motor. The video on your site made it look like changing blades would be a PITA, but maybe just your demonstrator.

I'd love to have the opportunity to go to the show in Vegas, but I'll be flying a heavy helicopter offshore in Nigeria during the show, and I don't think my company would appreciate it if I took off with one of the aircraft to go!:D

I'll PM you my email. If I have further questions, I'll call you.

Frank

[Frank Trinkle]

Frank, since you returned, did you ask Tim whether Laguna would still be willing to sell you the saws at the price they quoted you before?

No I haven't. I've been spending some quality time with my family in Germany on this break, and will be going back to Florida on my next break in September to sit out the peak of hurricane season in case one decides to try and hammer my house! I am also waiting to see if he, or Torbin respond to this thread.

Not sure why the moderators are tweaking posts here, but I see they have edited mine and others. Don't know what rule or etiquette we may have broken, but I'd sure be interested in knowing so I don't repeat. Additionally, Erik from MiniMax just posted a long response to "asking what a potential customer's budget is" post and a rebuttal, but it disappeared almost instantly after I read it. Don't know if he deleted or the mods. It was a good post Erik!
Wish one of the Smiley's that are on other groups was here... Eating Popcorn and watching the show! :D

[Aleks Hunter]

Hi Erik
In 2013 It is not the best practice to make access to information about any product difficult for potential customers. ITs pretty simple for a site developer to use a sniffer to find a user's IP address and get a geographic location to serve up geographically specific information. Unfortunately, today "difficult" includes picking up the telephone or jotting off an e-mail. You can have the best product, but if people can't learn what they want to learn about it when they want to, they are less likely to buy it. I can't speak for everyone, but the woodworkers I know share a few traits, they are intelligent, curious, practical and quite frugal and unforgiving of vendors who shortchange them on either product or customer service. People's expectations customer service wise are much higher than they were even in the recent past. Just sayin, you might want to rethink the website you call horrible. I've heard a lot of good things c/s wise about minimax, but a lot of trepidation because the information just isn't there. On the other hand Laguna has a pretty spiffy website, but it does not take long to find a lot of horror stories from Laguna customers about very shoddy customer service. I've used Italian made Lagunas at previous jobs, and they are great machines, but getting them in the shop and installed can be tedious. We had machines from Robland and Felder installed and they were both a pleasure to work with.

[Kelby Van Patten]

No I haven't. I've been spending some quality time with my family in Germany on this break, and will be going back to Florida on my next break in September to sit out the peak of hurricane season in case one decides to try and hammer my house! I am also waiting to see if he, or Torbin respond to this thread.

Good luck with the hurricanes! And with whatever bandsaw you decide upon. I hope Laguna will decide to honor the price for you given the circumstances.

[Tim Lory]

Hi Frank - Hope all has been well with you. I Just sent you an email and PM regarding your post. Thanks!

[Dan Hintz]

Frank, yes, our website is terrible. Only to be outdone by the manual you will receive with your Minimax bandsaw.

LOL... truth in advertising. I love it :p

[Stephen Cherry]

With respect, if you are speaking of Felder,

I'll just chime in that Felder, to me, seems to go all the way with a great website with prices, responsive people, and a very nice product. I've just had limited dealings with them for a parts package on a used machine, but I was very impressed.

What some of the others may not realize is that for the high end buyer, a purchase may come years after an initial inquiry or browse of a website. The first thought would be the desire for an experience, then the consideration or whether it is financially possible. A good website is what may keep a dream to have a nice machine going in the time it takes to save up, or decide if the purchase is really what you want.

[Chris Padilla]

I have both an MM20 and an FS41 Elite jointer/planer combo machine from Mini Max. I got the j/p brand new and the MM20 used. I've had both going on 7-8 years now. Zero problems with either and both work as advertised. My only issue would be the cast iron top for my MM20...it is not coplanar on either side of the slit for the blade but honestly, that hasn't hampered using it for everything I've wanted. I mainly got the bandsaw for resawing and it excels for that. In fact, when I was shopping for bandsaws all those years ago, MM was the one who put me in touch with the gentleman who had it. He wanted to bump up to the MM24 but needed to unload his MM20 first. Suffice to say, I like MiniMax and wouldn't hesitate to consider them for future purchases...always good service when I call them.

[Frank Trinkle]

Just a quick note here that Tim from Laguna has contacted me as a result of this thread. There was clearly a misunderstanding regarding what I wanted him to do, and what he thought I wanted. Laguna has generously offered to honor the original understandings and price, and I am making a final decision after having received a boatload of info from other sources as well. I felt Tim's apology was sincere, and having had dealings with him over the last five years, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I still stick to my opinion about web sites that are primarily teasers, and that companies should understand better exactly what the internet and world wide web IS, and what users expect. This is the information age, and unless "information" is forthcoming on the net, the sites that don't produce will likely be ignored. That is a situation that can reflect very poorly upon the companies that represent themselves with those kind of websites. When a company website looks like it was put together by a high-schooler with no marketing or business acumen, the educated public will treat it as such, and the loss of potential revenue for those companies will almost assuredly occur.

[Jim Becker]

Like Chris, I'm a MiniMax customer. I have three tools...an MM16 bandsaw (earlier version with 12" resaw), an FS350 J/P that I love and an 8'6" sliding table saw that hasn't disappointed. The buying experience for this level of tools is a bit different than the mass-market tools most of us start out with and regardless of what is or isn't available on a web site, developing a relationship with someone at the company/vendor is a good way to get the information you need...including opportunities to save money. I got good deals on my machines through timing purchases with shows, for example.

That said, and to be fair, I am absolutely in agreement that in today's market, web sites do need to be functional, easy to navigate and offer full information, including at least list prices. Regardless of vendor. And sales people should follow up. I'd make no money with my customers if I didn't and that money is what supports my woodworking and equestrian dueling avocations!

[Jeff Duncan]

Wait a second, your going to be in Germany? Heck I'd pick up a used Bauerle bandsaw and get that sucker shipped over. I doubt you could find a better 'lifetime' saw on this side of the pond;)

If I had easy access to and from Germany I can tell you I'd fill a shipping container and my shop would be all Martin and Bauerle equipment.....and I'd be the happiest guy around:D

good luck with whichever machine you purchase!
JeffD

[Ken Fitzgerald]

For the record...a Moderator with a MM-16. Their website is terrible and the manual? What manual? Websites today do need to be informational and user friendly. MM's website lacks a lot!

That being said...before the claim is made......None of us are on the Mini-MaxUSA or any other manufacturer's pay roll. We haven't been offered any special pricing etc, either to my personal knowledge.

[David Kumm]

If you are really sold on the ACM saws I would also consider either the 20" resaw machine or my first choice would be the 24x17. That is the older style ACM but is well built and big enough to handle blade tension. When resawing you can't get too stiff a frame and the 24x17 is similar in build strength to the MM20. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Ken, I am probably going to write a new manual for the MM16. Just do it myself. Or at least some sort of a setup Doc. In fact, I am going over to a local owner's shop next week to look at his new saw and get some photos of the 2013 version. I want to take some photos and do a pdf setup guide, maybe 4-5 pages in length.

I know exactly how our customers feel. Just had to replace a part on the kitchen faucet my wife ordered years ago. Made in Germany, the most terrible manual I have ever seen and looked nothing like the actual faucet I had in front of me. LOL, thanks for reminding me about all this.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Cutler]

Wow! I guess I'm way out of touch with the current consumer paradigms.
I'm going to say that if all the research someone does, only involves internet website searches, you are doing yourself a disservice. Picking up a phone has saved me thousands of dollars, literally, through the years on actual price alone. The internet is great to get a general idea of how much a product, or service may "generally" cost, but dealing with an actual human is usually better.
I've bought flooring, roofing, appliances, lumber, car parts, truck parts, etc, yard tools, horse(equine stuff) all from sites that state to contact for pricing and quotes. I've saved a lot of $$$ through the years just by using the phone. The amount of help I've gotten by the person on the other end of the phone cannot be undervalued. I've gotten prices lower than listed on their websites just by calling. My kitchen flooring was a good example. I saved about $4.00 a sq/ft on that.
I'm currently getting ready to do a tiling job and called the manufacturer for technical assistance and info. During the course of the conversation they asked my how much I was quoted for the tile by the store. I told them and they said that price seemed a high based on their wholesale price structure and gave me the names of two other tile stores. They then told me how to get around the wholesaler/retailer link and order from them simply by asking for a "custom" order. The savings for me will be about 15%. This is not an isolated instance for me.
If all a person is willing to do is is internet price comparisons and then punch the "add to cart" on the cheapest website they can find, they are not doing themselves any favors.

We have folks on this board that rep quite a few wood working related product lines, and every one of them has stated that they will answer any questions, including pricing, via a PM, through the SMC server. To not take advantage of this resource is limiting. It doesn't make a lot of sense too me.

For the record;
I own no MiniMax products, since that is the focus of this thread. I also think Erik is taking some heat for something that is clearly outside his ability to change within his company. Corporate policy is corporate policy, and most of us know how frustrating that can be.

My .02 fwiw.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Erik,

If a person chooses to be critical of a manufacturer, they can find a reason. It's not difficult.

The OP of this thread stated that he is setting up his shop with a "buy once in a lifetime tools" and frankly that is what I did with some of my major tools. I'll explain.

When it comes to my tablesaw, it was purchased for me by my loving wife. It's a Ridgid TS-3650. It's a contractors saw. It's not a bad saw for the money. Eventually I will replace it but because she bought for me, I will have to find a reasonable excuse. I haven't found one yet.

My lathe....a PM-3520B with an 18" bed extension. I doubt I will ever justify replacing it. It's a lot of bang for the buck.

My bandsaw? I have a MM-16. That in itself is an interesting story. There is a moderator here, Mark Singer, whose work I very much admire. He doesn't post much any more but his woodworking (design and execution) I very much admire. He had IIRC an MM saw, I forget which model and replaced it with an Agazzani. He prefers the Agazanni. When I got ready to buy my bandsaw, I borrowed from my corporate 401K enough to purchase a good bandsaw, a good lathe, dust collection and with the thought of repaying myself. I received the money, I had already done my research and had my list down to 3 saws, 1 each, made by Agazanni, Laguna and Mini-Max. I was leaning towards Agazanni.

I contacted Mark Duginske, author/woodworker, via email. I told him what saws I was considering and his reply was "You couldn't go wrong with any of those 3 Italian made bandsaws". So no help from him?

At the time there was some threads here at the Creek indicating some less than stellar post-sales customer service from Laguna. So that helped me remove one of the 3 saws from consideration.

I contacted Jessie at Eagle Tool with hopes of buying the lathe and the bandsaw from them and maybe getting a small discount as a result. Jessie was very busy that day. He took my information and said he would call back the next day. It didn't happen. I don't remember but I know it was at least 3 days later maybe 5 days before he called back and left a message on my answering machine. It doesn't matter now. By the time he called back, the owners (husband and wife) of the Spokane WoodCraft store had delivered the lathe and helped me move the big palleted box into my shop using their pallet jack. The MM-16 and the Oneida DC were already ordered.

A fellow Creeker who was a professional woodworker had purchased a new home with an existing shop. An unusually heavy snowfall caused the roof on the shop to collapse and it destroyed a lot of his woodworking tools he used to make a living. A joint effort fundraiser between SMC and Family Wood Working resulted in some monies being raised. One of the members at the other website contacted Mini-MaxUSA to see if we could purchase an MM bandsaw at a reduced price. The company donated a new bandsaw to our effort and paid the shipping too! Their generosity certainly was a big influence in my decision.

My MM-16 is a good saw. I have no regrets. My two sons will fight over it. I had to use a Dremel tool to remove a piece of metal to allow the rear guide bearing to contact smaller blades and make them more easily functional but so what? It saws well! The lack of a manual and a poorly functioning website are the only 2 things that I can find limiting Mini-Max in securing a larger part of the market in this price range.

Obviously there are a lot of satisfied Laguna customers or they would be out of business. Obviously a lot of people speak well of Agazanni, Jessie and Eagle Tools. I caught Jessie at a bad time. I am not condemning either company or business. It was a matter of timing in "my buying moment".

and the other manufacturers out there? Well.....most of them make a product that gives a lot of bang for the buck in the price range where they choose to compete or they would go out of business. I won't condemn them either.

It becomes a matter of what price range and quality you can afford and justify. With an increased price range, it's logical one should be able to expect improved fit, finish, function and reliability. As an amateur woodworker with no desire of going into business, I have to carefully weigh the cost of a new tool with the amount of expected use, the importance of it's intended use and my current budget. If I was a professional woodworker, I would probably have a different set of requirements and specifications for my tools as my income would depend on them.

I own tools by a lot of the most recognized manufacturers......Delta, Jet, Ridgid, General International, Oneida, PM, MM, Excalibur, PC, Dewalt, Grizzly and others...

So much of what people want to claim makes a product "Better" is just subjective. A lot of "Better" is strictly a matter of personal opinion. You like something that I don't and vise versa.. ...and the only thing important is that the owner of a given tool likes it.

I'd love to have a copy of the "Manual".....LOL!

[Jeff Duncan]

Just thinking out loud.....this might be a good thread for Erik to pass on to those in higher positions at MiniMax. Sometimes those at the top don't know what's happening at ground level;)

Don't have any vested interest in Minimax either, though I do have a fondness for the few italian machines I own:D

JeffD

[Jim Andrew]

I bought my MM 16 on the end of year sale. Don't know if I saved money, but included shipping and a carbide tipped blade. If you aren't in a huge hurry, you might save money. Maybe Erik will chime in here.
Here in Kansas, there is not much in the used market. Not a traditional woodworking state. The lumberyard had a millwork shop in our nearby town, which sold out maybe 40 years ago and had machines all powered by a single shaft, you tightened the belt on whichever machine you wished to use. Probably was from 1880's. The only other big sale I've seen was a cabinet door shop which was sold out by the bank, and it was on IRS auctions. So most of my machines have been bought new. I did get an Oliver wood lathe a couple months ago, had an old cheapie antique lathe, but decided I had to buy the Oliver when I saw it. The guy said it had come from the high school in Salina, and he figured it was old enough to collect social security.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Great post, Ken.

One additional thought:

When we talk about these tools, we talk about our high sales and service expectations because of the huge amount of money these things cost. But they really don't cost that much. A new car costs ten or twenty times what we pay for an Italian 14" or 16" bandsaw, and the warranty service we get from most car companies pales in comparison to what any of these tool manufacturers provide. When was the last time Chrysler fixed a problem with your car free of charge even though it was out of warranty? Most of these tool companies do that quite frequently. And how often do the car companies tell you that your problem, which developed two months after you bought the car, isn't covered by the warranty? These sorts of things happen all the time with cars, appliances, and lots of other equipment we buy at prices that easily meet or exceed the price of our most expensive machines. Yet I've never had a tool company tell me that my specific problem wasn't covered by the warranty. In fact, tool manufacturers have often sent me replacement parts even when the warranties have expired. A nice Dell computer costs just about as much as a 14" bandsaw from one of these companies. Have you ever tried calling Dell's customer support? Or (laughing out loud) asked them to replace a computer under warranty? We have come to accept the fact that computer companies provide crap customer service. We still buy Dells. But people scream out loud about the fact that a tool company doesn't jump to our beck and call when we have any little problem.

All this is even more extraordinary when you consider how much you get for the money with these tools. I have a friend that is into mountain biking, and a good mountain bike costs multiples of what you would pay for that 16" Italian bandsaw, and equal to or more than you would pay for a very nice Italian 6' sliding tablesaw. A nice tablesaw costs less than many people's televisions. You can buy a very good wide-belt sander for less than the price of a nice Martin guitar.

Of all the products I've listed, the Martin is the only one that consistently treats its customers as well as we demand to be treated by the tool manufacturers. Also, the Martin and the Italian power tools are the only things in this post that will still be working beautifully for decades after the Chrysler, the mountain bike, the Dell, the appliances, and the television go off to die in some landfill.

The bottom line is, give these tool manufacturers a break. Guys like Erik and Tim are not perfect, but they are both great guys, and they are sincere. Their companies provide extraordinary products for a fraction of what we pay for many other things in our everyday lives, and I think they deliver a lot more product for the money. And even if their companies aren't quite perfect on every sale and every warranty request, they go far above and beyond the sales and customer service standards in almost every other industry.

[Rick Fisher]

I read the whole thread and admit that I agree with most of the opinions.. I love websites where you can actually build you machine.. like a Ford ..

You can learn that adding a second outfeed roller costs $$$ .. Having it rubber coated costs $$$ .. Adding variable speed costs $$$ .. Its awesome ..

The Laguna and Felder websites are the best IMO.. no question.. The Mini-Max / SCM website is terrible.. The Martin website is actually better than the Mini Max website..

Okay.. having said that .. Mini Max / SCM have the absolute best parts web site.. ( now that they will actually sell to Canadian customers, before that they sucked huge ) ..

I own an SCM Wide Belt and Band Saw .. Both have been excellent tools. Well built and reliable. There are manuals available for both online.. The manuals are crappy, but this is not my first tool.. I have been able to run both machines with the provided manuals..

End of the day, Mini Max has a website that is similar to the Russian auto maker GAZ.. but the machinery is in my opinion top drawer.. The new system for after sales service actually works..

Mini Max / SCM's customer service of 5 years ago was what prompted me to buy a Griggio machine.. lol .. Today however I would buy from them in a minute..

If you really need a great manual for a new MM-20 bandsaw.. you probably should be buying a Delta 14" as your starter saw..

************************************************** ****

[Keith Outten]

I should inject a note here concerning one of our rules to remind everyone that we don't allow any person to participate in any thread that they have a financial interest. You all know why this is necessary, if we did allow this kind of participation we would be swamped with threads advertising products and services and you would probably have a hard time finding a woodworking discussion.

Sometimes this rule has a down side as it prevents people from providing honest input and from answering technical questions but we can't have it both ways. The exception to this rule is our advertisers who deserve a non-competitive opportunity to participate here. At least two of the machines mentioned in this thread are advertisers who's support we must have in order to provide free access to The Creek.
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[Peter Quinn]

With respect, if you are speaking of Felder, that is not 'exactly' true. If you register on their site, either in Europe or the USA (which I have done on both), and then log in, ALL prices are then shown online, including accessories. Frank

Glad to hear your experience was positive. But with respect, what I wrote was true of my experience. I continue to receive semi annual phone calls to my business cell offering any help I may need regarding a Felder machine. 6 years later. This in spite of the fact that I have actually answered several of said phone calls to let them know my shop has been established, I have all the machines I need and can presently afford, thanks for calling, I'll let you know if my situation changes. And I have received phone calls conspicuously soon after having revisited the site and logging in to view some prices. They are very nice there, machines are great, I really want a 700 series sliding shaper. Not what I'd call a hard sales tactic but not an entirely passive interaction either. Their website and literature is great however, and should be the standard others strive for IMHO. THey do force you to register, that may lead IME to more contact than desired, but apparently experiences vary.