I've taken the plunge.....

[Edward Mitton]

Hi, folks,
Just wanted to announce that, after a lot of pondering, I have decided to take the plunge into total galootism as far as woodworking is concerned.

The TS will soon be up for sale, and the rest of my tailed machinery will be relegated to basement storage, except for the lathe, which my wife actually uses more than I do. It may be the same for the scroll saw...she's shown some interest in using that as well. (As for me, I have coping, fret, and bow saws and a shop built fretwork table on which to 'Neander' my curved cuts).

The only power tools I will be using on any kind of regular basis include an electric drill, drill press, dremel tool, and bench grinder, but these will be more for any mechanical/utility/electronic work.

I have been busy restoring a recently acquired rip saw, and have fettled a number of old planes, etc. and look forward to the peaceful, quiet, dust-free environment.

In addition, I have been digesting all the Neanderthal material I can from this forum, the Schwartz's blog, Sellers, and watching re-runs of St. Roy.

This was all in the cards since last year when I acquired all of my grandfathers tools, precipitating an intense interest in doing things the old-fashioned way with the traditional tools. During this time, I have been gradually weening myself away from the dust-throwers in favor of the "Armstrong" shaving generators!

And I'm not looking back!

I have even fashioned a wooden sign at the entrance to my woodshop area that reads:


HAND TOOL ZONE
No powered
or
plastic-handled
tools beyond this point

More than likely, you all will have to put up with me asking a lot of questions! Thanks in advance.

[Jim Matthews]

I recommend Jim Tolpin's "The New Traditional woodworker" as a starter text.

He's not rigid in his approach. I felt some validation in his desire to retain a bandsaw.
The first time you rip anything thicker than 8/4s or resaw anything hard, you'll see why.

Electrons were enslaved when apprentices became too expensive for "donkey" work.

http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/1440304289

[Winton Applegate]

Way to go. For woodworking at home it is a good way to do it.
I second the power band saw. Maybe put it in its own outbuilding so you can keep your cool sign.
I will , sadly, never put up such a sign. I have a nice precision metal working lathe and a TIG welder the size of a riding lawn mower both running on 220 V. I am in love with them so won't be giving them up soon. No significant noise, smoke, sparks or dust from either one though.
I am here to do what i can to promote , and learn about, hand tool woodworking so I am enthusiastic to help where i can.

[Bruce Haugen]

On the oldtools list, bandsaws got dubbed "neanderbuddies" for a reason.

[Mike Holbrook]

I second the vote for Jim Tolpin's book. I also like Hand Tool Essentials from the editors of Popular Woodworking Magazine. The tailed tools that I use on occasion are: bandsaw, drill press, planer. I use a track saw but mostly for construction work. I have a room that is reserved for hand tools too though.

I am finding that proper work surfaces: benches, tables, work support are very helpful. I am putting a new wood top on an old metal desk that belonged to my grandfather and putting together an Adjust -A-Bench worktable. When I get those two finished I will use them to build my hand tool workbench.

[Bill Haumann]

Another vote for Tolpin's hand tool book, as well as a solid workbench and a sharpening method (pick one and stick with it for a while). I struggled with makeshift workbenches and inadequate holding for too long, effective workholding makes a huge difference with handtools. And solid doesn't have to be expensive, Logan Cabinet Shoppe has free videos where he builds a bench without a bench (which is quite a bit different than building a second bench when you have a bench to use), and I believe Sellers also does a bench without a bench with inexpensive material.

[Jim Matthews]

And solid doesn't have to be expensive, Logan Cabinet Shoppe has free videos where he builds a bench without a bench (which is quite a bit different than building a second bench when you have a bench to use), and I believe Sellers also does a bench without a bench with inexpensive material.

That's an important subject. I attended a nine day course with Mr. Sellers and found the bench uncomfortably high at 38".
I'm short and don't like working with my elbows bent beyond 90 degrees. My preference is to work planes at waist level,
and raise up fine joinery in a vise to saw or pare joints.

But, that's another topic.

Search "first workbench" here in the Creek. Lots of us cover this ground on the way to making our first furniture pieces.

[Edward Mitton]

Thanks for all the replies. I will certainly check out Tolpin's book.

As far as the bandsaw is concerned, I do own a fourteen inch floor model, and I am waffling on whether I should relax my Neander-totality stance, and make use of it ever' so often. It does occupy a shop position outside the designated 'hand tool zone', so I can overlook this technicality. But again, St. Roy doesn't fire up a bandsaw.....Decisions, decisions !!

My workbench is fully up to anything I can throw at it. Not the best in the world, but it is rock sturdy. It consists of a dimensional pine frame (All dumpster-dove lumber from a local homebuilder's construction site), with 4x4 legs. The top is a 23" x 76" solid core door that came out of an old elementary school that was being renovated. My wood vise is an old monster that came out of a high school wood shop that was dismantled back in the 1990s.

As for sharpening, I am currently going with scary sharp, and so far it fits the bill very nicely.

Winton, Your lathe and welder are OK since they are strictly metal-working beasts!

[David Barnett]

As far as the bandsaw is concerned, I do own a fourteen inch floor model, and I am waffling on whether I should relax my Neander-totality stance, and make use of it ever' so often. It does occupy a shop position outside the designated 'hand tool zone', so I can overlook this technicality. But again, St. Roy doesn't fire up a bandsaw.....Decisions, decisions !!

If you can afford the space and it doesn't overwhelm your sensibilities and self-esteem—the passions of the moment may fade, you know—I'd say keep the bandsaw at the very least. Options are a good thing, not bad.

I started with hand tools alone, augmented my productiveness with stationary power tools, combining them in a way that best works for me. While I love and have an abiding respect for hand tools, I don't have the limited resources, any romantic fixation, imitative hero worship or other psychological need to eschew power, and fortunately, too—as I've grown older power tools have allowed me to remain far more productive than I otherwise would've been.

As I grow ever larger, I work ever smaller, it seems, so for metals, outside of a small belt grinder, buffers and Foredom flexshafts, nearly everything is hand tools.

Of course, my definition of a woodworking hand tool differs from others. I consider anything guided by hand with at least enough workmanship of risk, realtime finesse and right-brain satisfaction a hand tool, which means I include angle grinders with Kutzall Extreme wheels as hand tools for sculpting and shaping furniture. :)

That's my take, anyway.

[Jim Koepke]

My most used power tool is my bandsaw.

To my way of thinking neandering is more a state of mind than what tools one has in the mix. It is my choice to eschew plywood and other engineered woods. For someone else, they may be quite satisfactory.

Make your own choices, you will be much happier.

jtk

[David Barnett]

To my way of thinking neandering is more a state of mind than what tools one has in the mix.

Well said!

[Prashun Patel]

"I consider anything guided by hand with at least enough workmanship of risk, realtime finesse and right-brain satisfaction a hand tool, which means I include angle grinders with Kutzall Extreme wheels as hand tools for sculpting and shaping furniture"

I'm in your camp, David. That's exactly how I see it. Maybe this means 'REAL' neanders use a bandsaw without the fence ;)

[David Barnett]

I'm in your camp, David. That's exactly how I see it. Maybe this means 'REAL' neanders use a bandsaw without the fence ;)

To expand, while there are difference between hand powered and otherwise powered yet hand guided tools and processes (noise is just one), to me, hand tools are more about hands than power sources. I love slack belt technique on grinders, for example. Time dissolves. I get that same in-the-zone-tongue-in-the-corner-of-my-mouth right-brain ecstasy as pulling off a Liszt arpeggio on autopilot. No thinking! You think—you crash and burn.

[Edward Mitton]

Of course, my definition of a woodworking hand tool differs from others. I consider anything guided by hand with at least enough workmanship of risk, realtime finesse and right-brain satisfaction a hand tool, which means I include angle grinders with Kutzall Extreme wheels as hand tools for sculpting and shaping furniture. :)

This is a valid point.
I would consider a woodturning lathe and a scroll saw as forms of hand tools.
More so for the lathe, since one is actually using skill to guide a hand-held edge tool to form the piece.
Scrollsawing is somewhat similar, as one is utilizing considerable skill guiding a piece of stock to make intricate detail cuts.

By the same token, a post drill, treadle lathe, or hand-crank grinder might be considered by some as being machine tools rather than hand tools, despite being user powered.
Perhaps I should re-phrase my thread theme to distinguish my preference to switch from electron-powered to non-electron powered tools. Darn, I'm gonna have to re-woodburn my sign!

I have yet to use a hand saw to rip a 8/4 plank. We'll see how THAT goes....

As for romanticism and hero worship.... naaah....(OK, I admit I would like to be able to play my guitar at the Satriani level !). I greatly respect the Roy Underhills and Chris Schwartzes because they have become masters of their craft. At the same time, I also respect the Norm Abramses and Don Peschkes (Woodsmith), and other power tool guys for the same reason - they are good at what they do.
I think that my decision to go power-less stems more from my desire to be more hands-on with wood. Also, the quiet and cleaner environment is appealing. I can get up at 5am and make a cut or two without disturbing anyone else in the household (and neighborhood).

Currently, I own and use some version of about every woodworking power tool, and I will admit that some of them make me worry about the safety issues. As a semi-professional musician, I would find it devastating to lose an important finger or two to a hobby accident!

Besides all this I am still a hopeless old-fashioned kind of guy. I still prefer to hand-write letters rather than send e-mails....

[David Barnett]

You're so right, Edward—it comes down to how much individual skill and control is involved versus what is jigged or otherwise guided by processes beyond the craftsperson.


I have yet to use a hand saw to rip a 8/4 plank. We'll see how THAT goes....

As to the enjoyment of athleticism and physical effort involved in woodworking, I can certainly respect that although except for occasional bouts of hand dimensioning I mostly avoid it.


I greatly respect the Roy Underhills and Chris Schwartzes because they have become masters of their craft.

While I, too, respect and enjoy Underhill and Schwarz, I can't for the life of me point to one example that either have created that would lead me to consider either "masters of their craft"—perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying or our definitions of mastery are simply divergent.


I think that my decision to go power-less stems more from my desire to be more hands-on with wood. Also, the quiet and cleaner environment is appealing. I can get up at 5am and make a cut or two without disturbing anyone else in the household (and neighborhood).

That deeply resonates with me. I love the days of working quietly with my hands, whether at bookbinding, carving, goldsmithing and so on. Although I needn't worry about noise, I'll often delay shattering the peace or silence more than the tapping of the hammer on a graver or repousse punch until traffic sounds or the lawn people intrude on my consciousness. Funny, though, loud as it sometimes becomes, raising vessels and otherwise forming copper or silver doesn't pull me out of the zone in most cases—probably as it's so rhythmic, although sawing wood wakes me right up.


Currently, I own and use some version of about every woodworking power tool, and I will admit that some of them make me worry about the safety issues. As a semi-professional musician, I would find it devastating to lose an important finger or two to a hobby accident!

I certainly get that. In that vein, I've switched to small diameter saw blades, GRR-Rippers and all manner of safety improvements, but even so, I'm ever vigilant.

[David Weaver]

I believe Roy's craft is as a housewright, which would explain why a lot of his woodworking falls short of a cabinetmaker's tidy efforts. Chris is a publisher, he is good at publishing. Beyond that, he has a blog. I think it's important for even beginners to keep in mind who the professional craftsmen, instrument makers, cabinetmakers, etc. are so that they calibrate their compass correctly.

I am almost entirely hand tool. There are two tools I won't get rid of - a band saw and a basic thickness planer. Not that I always use either on projects, but there are times when those two things can speed up production type work.

[Mel Fulks]

Roy's show has covered a lot of ground and is helpful on different levels. It is watched and enjoyed even by those who have no interest in making anything . I think the skill and care exhibited is appropriate for the particular projects ,some of which are farm implements. I think his furniture is pretty accurate . I dislike things that are overworked ,in particular windsor chairs. Most of the modern ones show a level of precision seldom applied to period examples,in my opinion it makes them cost too much and look too slick. Roy's show is traditional stuff, not studio furniture. It demonstrates how work was done and invites all to find their own direction and level.

[Jim Matthews]

As far as the bandsaw is concerned, I do own a fourteen inch floor model, and I am waffling on whether I should relax my Neander-totality stance, and make use of it ever' so often. It does occupy a shop position outside the designated 'hand tool zone', so I can overlook this technicality. But again, St. Roy doesn't fire up a bandsaw.....Decisions, decisions !!

Think of it this way; the amount of money you can recoup by selling a classic "C" frame 14" bandsaw isn't much.
If you can get it on wheels, or tucked out of the way - it won't demand much floor space.

The first time you want to rip a straight line longer than 40" it will earn it's keep.
The first time you consider resawing anything wider than 4" you'll appreciate what it can do, easily.

I cut all my joinery by hand. Breaking down stock, or getting close to width on longer boards are MUCH easier with the bandsaw.

Don't even get me started on resawing by hand.
(Look at my avatar - once was enough.)

[Edward Mitton]

Nice frame saw, though....

[David Barnett]

If you can get it on wheels, or tucked out of the way - it won't demand much floor space.

And where space is no issue, it's nice to roll your bandsaw where you want it—even outside. My 450-pounder practically floats along on its wheels.

[Chris Hachet]

On the oldtools list, bandsaws got dubbed "neanderbuddies" for a reason.I am not giving up mine any time soon!

[Chris Hachet]

My most used power tool is my bandsaw.

To my way of thinking neandering is more a state of mind than what tools one has in the mix. It is my choice to eschew plywood and other engineered woods. For someone else, they may be quite satisfactory.

Make your own choices, you will be much happier.

jtkDitto on getting rid of plywood and using real wood...it can make all of the difference in the world in terms of a finished product.

[bob blakeborough]

Roy's show has covered a lot of ground and is helpful on different levels. It is watched and enjoyed even by those who have no interest in making anything . I think the skill and care exhibited is appropriate for the particular projects ,some of which are farm implements. I think his furniture is pretty accurate . I dislike things that are overworked ,in particular windsor chairs. Most of the modern ones show a level of precision seldom applied to period examples,in my opinion it makes them cost too much and look too slick. Roy's show is traditional stuff, not studio furniture. It demonstrates how work was done and invites all to find their own direction and level.I agree whole heartedly... Same thing for CS... These guys may not be making furniture that will be in the Smithsonian for generations to come to be compared with work the top .01 percent of master can perform, but there is no doubt that they build absolutely beautiful, functional, quality stuff, and they do it in a way that is far less pompous and arrogant than these elitist blowhards that figure everyone's goal is to build museum quality items, and if they are not, they know nothing...

The irony is these guys, who seem to constantly get torn down by those who seemed annoyed that they have such an influence on the general public, are the same guys that are facilitating and inspiring people who never considered the craft to take up tools and join in because they make it possible and understandable for us...

I understand that their methods may not be somebody else's methods, but you never hear these guys tearing down other craftsmen like some craftsmen seem to arrogantly do to them. Such bad attitudes do nothing but harm the perception of this hobby/craft/art form we all try to love so much...

[David Barnett]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/styles/default/images/interface/mwol2010_mw_logo_header.gif

mas·ter

c: a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices

d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) :a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal

Who's tearing down Roy or Chris? Both are very good at what they do. While I would easily consider them masters within definition c, I reserve d for others of "consummate skill", and would place neither in that category, which in no way disparages either nor others who work and make at their level.

On the other hand, I do consider:


...there is no doubt that they build absolutely beautiful, functional, quality stuff, and they do it in a way that is far less pompous and arrogant than these elitist blowhards that figure everyone's goal is to build museum quality items, and if they are not, they know nothing...and,


I understand that their methods may not be somebody else's methods, but you never hear these guys tearing down other craftsmen like some craftsmen seem to arrogantly do to them. Such bad attitudes do nothing but harm the perception of this hobby/craft/art form we all try to love so much...
—somewhat testy, rather strong in tone and less civil than anything I've seen in this thread to this point or would myself say, so I'm wondering to whom such remarks are directed—just checking. Honest disagreement need not invite invective.

By the way, much that is to be found in museums, in particular the Smithsonian—America's Attic—falls rather short of d but serves to preserve and present a given historical period, style or industry rather than to exemplify the best in craftsmanship or aesthetic accomplishment, although some exhibits certainly do display the best. There is much mastery to be found outside museums, too, you know—just sayin'.

[David Weaver]

And where space is no issue, it's nice to roll your bandsaw where you want it—even outside. My 450-pounder practically floats along on its wheels.

Mine, too. A joy to move instead of a table saw with two more legs 6 feet from where I'm standing. I can nearly stand my similar weight bandsaw just about anywhere that a person could temporarily stand in the shop.....and the dust in it (I don't use dust collection-goes practically straight down in the machine and I can take it out later with a dust pan and nothing else).

[David Weaver]

..who seem to constantly get torn down by those who seemed annoyed that they have such an influence on the general public...

I don't think most folks get annoyed except by misclassification of either as master cabinetmakers, furnituremakers, etc. Getting annoyed that they are popular, in roy's case all the way to people who don't make anything and never have any interest in it, would be similar to getting annoyed that liberace was so popular while perlman is a name that most people don't know that well. (except liberace was a professional pianist and more accomplished at piano than either of those guys are at woodworking...maybe that wasn't the greatest example)

Roy is probably a master housewright. It is when their discussion of things is brought up and they are quoted against actual masters that folks get annoyed. Or at least I do. I'm no master woodworker. I don't think it's the remotest of stretches to say that novice woodworkers stand to learn more from masters, even if they choose in the end to build simple pieces. But the majority of folks probably won't have any inclination to get better at what they're doing, but instead use it as a curiosity and a way to say a guaranteed "good job man" to each other, and that's fine.

[bob blakeborough]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/styles/default/images/interface/mwol2010_mw_logo_header.gif

mas·ter

c: a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices

d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) :a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal

Who's tearing down Roy or Chris? Both are very good at what they do. While I would easily consider them masters within definition c, I reserve d for others of "consummate skill", and would place neither in that category, which in no way disparages either, nor others who work and make at their level.

On the other hand, I do consider:



and,



—somewhat testy, rather strong in tone and less civil than anything I've seen in this thread to this point, or would myself say, so I'm wondering to whom such remarks are directed—just checking.

By the way, much that is to be found in museums, in particular the Smithsonian—America's Attic—falls rather short of d but serves to preserve and present a given historical period, style or industry rather than to exemplify the best in craftsmanship or aesthetic accomplishment, although some exhibits certainly do display the best. There is much mastery to be found outside museums, too, you know—just sayin'.


Pardon my tone... You are right that I am coming across as a bit testy and I apologize for that. I don't want to really start stuff because really, I appreciate everyone who participates here and have learned much from everyone, but I have also learned lots from the very people I was speaking about (CS and Roy) and it seems as time marches on, the thinly veiled insults against them (and others) creep out more and more. I am not trying to stand up and protect their virtues or anything, but it is a bit of a slap to us who feel we have learned valuable stuff only to be hinted to that we are fools for liking their methods and teachings. In this case I am talking about David W's (of whom I do get a lot out of his postings on a regular basis) saying things like 'Chris is a publisher, he is good at publishing. Beyond that, he has a blog.' and then following it up with 'I think it's important for even beginners to keep in mind who the professional craftsmen, instrument makers, cabinetmakers, etc. are so that they calibrate their compass correctly.' which is in not so many words, an intended slight...

I am just tired of people insulting others when they are trying to justify how they do things themselves rather than simply adding their preferred methods in a positive, encouraging enviroment. We can talk about how we do things without trying to discredit others who obviously are proven successful at what they do, and yes, I believe CS can do more than simply 'blog' and has shown this over time, whether some people agree or disagree with how he has moved his career forward or not...

Ugggggggggh... I hate being this guy... Sorry to all involved and please disregard my diatribe if you find it objectionable. I am just having one of those days where my experiences outside of the forums have probably carried over onto the forums...

[David Weaver]

Bob, I don't think any of us are offended about who or who isn't "that guy", I've got no issues with anyone airing out their opinion, even if they have suspenders with Schwarz's picture on one side and Roy's on another.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a good job of publishing and running a blog (or magazine editing, etc) and being a mediocre woodworker, and don't find anything wrong with folks being entertained by a mediocre woodworker. My point is just that if you want to get to the nuts and bolts of something, it's sort of like seeking the opinion of alan shipnuck (a golf writer) or ben hogan about the best way to manage yourself around a golf course. Some folks have no interest in golf course management, or even anything beyond playing golf and never working on a swing, etc. Personally, I have really enjoyed some of the things that Chris has published (anything robert wearing, and the moulding book that Matt put together).

It's all in difference of opinion, but I'm the kind of guy who will watch ben hogan's positions in the golf swing before watching the golf writers.

[David Barnett]

Thanks for your explanation, Bob. Now I understand.


...but I have also learned lots from the very people I was speaking about (CS and Roy) ... I am not trying to stand up and protect their virtues or anything, but it is a bit of a slap to us who feel we have learned valuable stuff only to be hinted to that we are fools for liking their methods and teachings.

I don't think anyone has said or regards those who enjoy or learn from either to be fools, however.


In this case I am talking about David W's (of whom I do get a lot out of his postings on a regular basis) saying things like 'Chris is a publisher, he is good at publishing. Beyond that, he has a blog.' and then following it up with 'I think it's important for even beginners to keep in mind who the professional craftsmen, instrument makers, cabinetmakers, etc. are so that they calibrate their compass correctly.' which is in not so many words, an intended slight...Color me dense, but I didn't get that at all from what Weaver said and wonder if agreeing with him casts me in the same shadow. Saying that Chris, a very talented and interesting writer, is a publisher and blogger but not a master artisan struck me as right on target and his recommendation to learn what is masterful seems, at the very least, sound advice. I never took it mean just because Chris blogs that he doesn't have informative, interesting or provocative things to add to the conversation on woodworking and crafts. While his approach may be idiosyncratic at times—so is mine—and I enjoy reading what he has to say whether or not I agree or choose to adopt his suggestions.

When I began piano, I wanted to play like Alfred Brendel, not Mrs. Davidson, the sunday school pianist.

Again, though, I simply don't put Schwarz in the category of consummate masters, nor myself, of course. You know, I really like a good hot dog now and then but I do know it's not haute cuisine, which is really all I meant.

Anyway, thanks again for your explanation and glad I didn't trigger your ire. :)

[bob blakeborough]

Bob, I don't think any of us are offended about who or who isn't "that guy", I've got no issues with anyone airing out their opinion, even if they have suspenders with Schwarz's picture on one side and Roy's on another.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a good job of publishing and running a blog (or magazine editing, etc) and being a mediocre woodworker, and don't find anything wrong with folks being entertained by a mediocre woodworker. My point is just that if you want to get to the nuts and bolts of something, it's sort of like seeking the opinion of alan shipnuck (a golf writer) or ben hogan about the best way to manage yourself around a golf course. Some folks have no interest in golf course management, or even anything beyond playing golf and never working on a swing, etc. Personally, I have really enjoyed some of the things that Chris has published (anything robert wearing, and the moulding book that Matt put together).

It's all in difference of opinion, but I'm the kind of guy who will watch ben hogan's positions in the golf swing before watching the golf writers.I hear you David, but if we can use that golf analogy again, I will sort of make my point that while Ben Hogan may be an awesome golfer, he might be a terrible coach, while many, many, many coaches may only be decently mediocre players, they are awesome coaches and can take beginner people and turn them into phenomenal players, even though they themselves don't play at that level. Even Tiger Woods uses a coach, and I can pretty much guarantee you that his coach can't play at Tigers level, but even though he can't play at that level, his input is extremely valuable and can, and should, be considered as such. I would never consider marginalizing that guys talents just because he can't play at that level...

A lot of us have learned incredible amounts with guys like CS and Roy, and just saying they are mediocre is marginalizing their talents. They are awesome at getting people inspired and helping people explore the world of neanderthal woodworking, and more. Are they the guys I go to when wanting to figure out how to build a claw and ball foot? Maybe not... But to learn how to hammer out a mortise and tenon or DT's etc, they have been invaluable and deserve a lot more credit than it seems you feel they deserve.

[David Weaver]

I guess this is the point where our opinions diverge. While I really like the stuff that Chris has published originating from other, his writing is too errant for me to follow. The parts you mentioned are woodworking skills you can come by anywhere. I'll explain the "errant" later when I'm not typing on a phone. I've always gotten the notion that his writing of his own material is more about the style of the delivery and less about the content.

Edit: the last two errant things I read, because I did have his blog on my blogroll for a while, but the more I knew, the less I liked it. First post was a post about how long it takes to refurbish old tools and about drawing that conclusion from one chisel, that it took over 2 hours or something to get nowhere. I could've refurbished the chisel he was showing in 20 minutes. It was a matter of him not knowing how to do what he was doing.

And the second thing, I hadn't read for a while, but someone linked up something about the LN drawknife and the need for it. I had responded something in the blog about there really being no need for a new drawknife when they are one of the things you find in spades for $25. Chris indicated that supporting LN was sort of the point. I understand that, but say it from the get go, a lot of beginners who have never looked have no clue that the drawknives are out there in piles, big and small.

And the whole double iron thing. When I started, warren said one thing, most of the rest of the novice woodworking community said another. "the chipbreaker is an iron holder and you have to get it out of the way". Over time, despite warren's ability to be extremely brief and sometimes too brief telling what is essentially perfect advice, I started to realize that any time chris says something that doesn't agree with warren or people like warren, it won't turn out well for chris. Most people will still be more entertained by and continue to get information from Chris instead.

I may be one of the HT woodworkers who has taken up the sport in the last 8 years without really any influence from Chris. What influenced me was a friend's LN block plane, he had it, he showed me how it worked and I bought one. He loaned me one sharpening video from charlesworth and then I was off to the races amid barrages of criticism from the friend (who still is a powertool fanatic). I just never, even then, felt a need to get any of the schwarz stuff when I couldn't identify his professional origin and it seemed like the topics were things that are better learned in the dirt, if you know what i mean. I subscribed to PWW, the PWW blogs, etc, but could not find anything from them that I thought was good that didn't just come from another source (for example, Chris recites a lot of tips from wearings book, why not just get the book and get it all at one time?). At least it was better than 14" bandsaw tests from FWW, though.

I'm not really looking to convince anyone other than the bit still about when you want the pure experienced answer, go to the professionals. I think that part is important, even if you only intend to do novice work. Whether or not someone appreciates Chris's blog posts and brand of humor is up to them. If I just want satire and sarcasm, I know where to go for the mississippi squirrel revival......... or stories about squirrel man, for that matter.

(Ihave, though gotten answers from george, Dave B, warren, etc that I haven't seen anywhere else. Those are the gems I'm looking for).

[bob blakeborough]

I guess this is the point where our opinions diverge......... /snip/

I know you don't see my perspective and it is something I realize is never going to be made clear by going back and forth like this without both of us either getting frustrated or simply ignoring what each other has to say with no progress being made. I just don't have it in me... We can just agree to disagree I suppose.

Peace

[Charlie Stanford]

I know you don't see my perspective and it is something I realize is never going to be made clear by going back and forth like this without both of us either getting frustrated or simply ignoring what each other has to say with no progress being made. I just don't have it in me... We can just agree to disagree I suppose.

Peace

One can only hope you are putting Schwarz' woodworking instruction through a very fine sieve. He seems to change his mind a lot. This might be endearing and give you the 'me too' warm and fuzzies, but I'm not sure what it will actually do for one's woodworking.

Tool up, tool down. Buy vintage, no now support Lie-Nielsen. Woodworking whiplash. About-faces to older about-faces.

Schwarz needs to have a mortgage payment riding on delivering a commission on time, no excuses. One's pulse starts getting a little erratic around the 25th of the month, and whether or not to buy a vintage or a new chisel doesn't really mean a whole helluva lot. Wielding one without error, whatever one has to hand, on a waning pile of project stock tends to be the main issue. And once one has withstood the heat of battle you tend to go back to it regardless. Why kick a good tool out of bed for eating crackers? My definition of a good tool: if you build something nice with it, it's a good tool.

And in case the obvious needs restating, Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley both make exceptional tools - tools that a workman really won't be able to blame when something goes awry.

[David Weaver]

I know you don't see my perspective and it is something I realize is never going to be made clear by going back and forth like this without both of us either getting frustrated or simply ignoring what each other has to say with no progress being made. I just don't have it in me... We can just agree to disagree I suppose.

Peace

Bob, i understand your perspective. It's one i'm not going to adopt, it's not a lack of clarity, it's an issue of discrimination (not in hijacked sense of the word, but in the sense of selectivity). I think that pretty much sums it up, and i don't think there is a need to develop a majority consensus and say "everyone has to agree with my conclusions, too". I'd rather have it at that than to have the typical back and forth salvos that occur on the forum until "you like my guy, too". You know?

[Edward Mitton]

Hi, All,
Just wanted to let you know that I managed to Galoot-Rip-Cut my first thick plank. A standard dimensional 2 x 10 x 60" pine piece that I needed to use for a lathe stand I am building. It was quite a workout, but I managed! I cut the piece on an old wide-top sawhorse I built many years ago. Before tackling the plank, I cut the legs of the sawhorse down to my knee height, giving myself a new sawbench.
That old Disston D-8 that I bought a few weeks ago at a yard sale for a buck worked wonderfully!

By the way, I have listened to the advice of many of you and made the decision to keep the bandsaw. Most of my rip cuts will still be done by hand, but the bandsaw will be more for re-sawing, since I don't yet have a hand saw suitable enough for that operation... The bandsaw will be used for ripping, though, when I have to knock out a project in a limited amount of time.

I have officially removed the table saw from my shop and have resolved to do without. (I am experiencing some slight withdrawal symptoms, but I'll get over that).

Now I need to start agonizing about forsaking the lunchbox planer. But that won't be until I acquire a good jack plane.

[Edward Mitton]

Somehow may previous post didn't appear, so I have to draft it again in a distilled version, because I don't want to re-type the whole dern thing again...

First Neander-Rip-Cut on thick stock this weekend 2 x 10 by 60 pine piece....

Distton D8 worked great....

Cut legs down on old wide-top sawhorse to make servicable saw-bench

Will keep bandsaw for re-sawing. Don't have good hand saw for this op..

TS officially forsaken...

Contemplating forsaking lunch box planer.
Need to get good jack plane first.....

[Chris Hachet]

Somehow may previous post didn't appear, so I have to draft it again in a distilled version, because I don't want to re-type the whole dern thing again...

First Neander-Rip-Cut on thick stock this weekend 2 x 10 by 60 pine piece....

Distton D8 worked great....

Cut legs down on old wide-top sawhorse to make servicable saw-bench

Will keep bandsaw for re-sawing. Don't have good hand saw for this op..

TS officially forsaken...

Contemplating forsaking lunch box planer.
Need to get good jack plane first.....Nothing wrong with a lunch box planer....but plus one to the idea of a good jack plane and a good smoothing plane....I spend sooo much less on sandpaper since I started planning more and sanding less....

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

A lunch box planer would actually be on my list of power tools to acquire if I was ever in a position to have that sort of shop ability. The footprint is smaller than a powered jointer - there are times it'd be nice to just jack plane, maybe jack-and-jointer something from the rough smooth enough to throw through the powered planer and then hit my final surface with handplanes. Particularly when you have something a little thin to resaw, but a little harder than you feel like expending the hand effort to reach the thickness that's going to look good in the project vs what is the least effort. Just varying the stock width of the various parts of a project goes a long way towards making it look less manufactured and bringing a touch of class to it.

The cost of rough lumber vs finished stuff from the lumberyard, and the time savings when working rough lumber on a large project really justifies both the bandsaw and the planer in my book - but I'm also looking at these things through rose-coloured glasses, because I have no access to or appropriate space for powered tools in my "shop".

[Edward Mitton]

Yep, Joshua,
Shop space is another of my reasons why I am gong Neander, albeit, it is one of the lesser reasons. Currently I work in one bay of a 3 car garage, but even part of that space is occupied by garden tools, a lawn mower, snow blower, and the biggest space hog of all - a full size fridge. So, I have maybe an 8' by 12' space for woodworking with expansion outside to the driveway as required and weather permits. Also, the woodshop space serves as a mechanical-utility-auto-electrical shop, so I have storage area given over to electrical, plumbing, car stuff, and general hardware.
Luckily during the winter months, the LOML lets me work in the basement , but it's hand tools only, and I work on a makeshift 'bench' made from a 2x4 frame and ply top clamped to a workmate. Not ideal for planing and heavy pounding, but this set-up does lend itself to old tool restoration and sharpening. At least it keeps me out of the freezing garage. An added bonus is the area that I set up the bench is in front of a south facing window, so I do get direct sunlight for a part of the day.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I suppose I actually have "space" - in that I could cram the physical tools in there (assuming the floor holds any more heavy stuff) but the "shop" is actually our "spare" bedroom. Anything spewing crazy dust into the air is going to mean extra fiber for anyone cooking in the kitchen, at the very least. Outside might be possible, but would mean dragging whatever stuff up and down a flight stairs and back.

[Greg Berlin]

I have found hand tools way more enjoyable and I believe I could do it all without power tools especially without the sound and dust. Wearing safety glasses, hearing protection, and a dusk mask gets old very quickly. I will admit that I do tend to use my power tools to dimension wood quickly. I have an 8" Delta planer that I put a shelix head on it works wonders. I work a lot with hardwood flooring either taken up from jobs or left over since I own a flooring store and trying to get that urethane off with hand tools isn't much fun. Run it through the planer with the carbide blades on it and voila. All joinery is done with hand tools though. I'm not great doing power tool joinery but do much better with hand tools. I learned that way and power tools take way too long to set up and is not nearly as satisfying or enjoyable as hand tool joinery. But when you have to mill 10 boards of rough cut lumber, then hand planes doesn't sound much fun to me.