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Julie Moriarty
07-15-2013, 4:03 PM
Browsing the web for alternatives to teak for the exterior of a boat, I didn't really find anything I'd be comfortable using in its place. I saw some who used Honduras mahogany for handholds or companionway hatches but I would think that would only work if you kept the wood properly varnished. Or can mahogany hold up to the rigors of the sea? Are there any other woods that can?

At a boat show I saw sapele used on the interior of a Blue Jacket 40. The Sabre 456 used cherry.

We've been looking at buying an 80's sailboat. Some of the pics I've seen tell me there may be some replacement of wood components needed but we're steering clear of structural repair work. But there have been a few where an interior modification could give better sleeping quarters, usually in the aft cabin. When it comes to boat interiors, are you usually free to use any hardwood?

Sam Murdoch
07-15-2013, 5:08 PM
Interior wood for boats runs the gamut. On the yacht interiors that I have worked on in Mid-coast Maine since the late 70s, the solid wood species for varnish grade were typically selected to match available marine ply. But you see everything if you look, including melamine on foam cores - no particle board type products. As for exterior work, that will require minimal or no finish, teak is it. Otherwise mahogany (in the old days - rosewood) seems to be the preferred exterior grade and is finished with lots of varnish. White and red oak, white cedar, fir, spruce, pine, and ash are also used in some applications and for more working type small boats but again these are typically finished with lots of varnish or good paint. To name but a few...

Julie Moriarty
07-15-2013, 7:15 PM
Thanks Sam. That's pretty much what I've been reading but you know how reliable the web is. :rolleyes: I just needed to hear from people I trust. :D

Dave Richards
07-22-2013, 8:11 PM
Julie, I've got a 1980 Catalina 27 with some exterior teak. I've been thinking about replacing some of the pieces because they aren't in great condition. Teak in the sizes I'd need isn't readily available nor affordable. I've been considering using one of the species like Ipe or Cumaru/Brazilian Teak that is used on residential decks. I've also thought about going with local cherry. Even if it didn't last as long as the teak, I could make up enough copies to last for many years for the price of the teak.

What sort of boat do you have in your sights?

Jim Creech
07-23-2013, 8:49 AM
Iroko is a common substitute for teak. It has a similar appearance and properties and is somewhat more affordable.

Paul R Miller
07-23-2013, 10:50 AM
Hi Julie
I'm new to this forum but maybe I can shed some light. I am a retired wood boat builder from BC Canada. The traditional woods for exterior bright work on yachts have always been teak and (real) mahogany. The main difference is how you expect them to look. If you just want durability and don't want upkeep, use teak. If you want a varnished look, use mahogany. Teak, left alone will turn a quite agreeable silver and can be maintained that way without much trouble. However if you want a varnished look mahogany will hold the varnish much better than the oilier teak. If you are talking about woods that will be painted the list grows substantially.

Also, if you have made the commitment to a regimen of maintenance many other woods will do. If not though, teak will always be the best when left on its own.

Malcolm Schweizer
07-23-2013, 4:38 PM
Good day,

It looks like you got some good answers, but as a boatbuilder, here is my take:
I use Mahogany quite extensively. It must be varnished, but it looks amazing, and is very rot resistant. It darkens with age/exposure to UV. It turns silvery brown when left unvarnished and will crack if not varnished. Personally for handrails and things that you don't walk on, I prefer mahogany. The main reason (speaking very generally here) for teak's popularity is for decking. It can be left unvarnished due to the oils in the wood, and therefore makes for good traction on a deck. In fact, for decking if I didn't look at the price and if it wasn't that I don't like the weathered silver-grey color it turns, it would be my only choice. Because I don't like the gray color and I don't want to replace it over and over, I prefer to glass over the deck or to varnish mahogany or fir (fir is gorgeous as deck material) and just add traction either with strips or by putting an additive in the varnish and paint it on in strips.

Someone mentioned Ipe. I don't like Ipe because it checks really bad. It is very oily and therefore rot resistant, but in my opinion it is no match for teak, and it is VERY heavy. Personal opinion- I would not use it, although I have heard of it being used as a substitute for teak. I would varnish it if I used it. Also if you use Ipe, be very careful of the dust. It's very bad on the lungs and for some sensitive people it can also cause skin irritation.

I get mahogany locally, so I use it a lot. The local stuff (Virgin Islands) is really Cuban Mahogany. It's gorgeous. It also has a very pleasant odor almost like rosewood when cut. I use it extensively. It holds up well to UV when properly varnished. One drawback- it can be hard to work because the grain can be very haphazard, which goes for most tropical woods. I use a bevel-up plane with a 38 or 50 degree blade and it works great that way. Sometimes Mahogany can tend to break along growth rings, although tropical woods don't have distinct summer/winter rings. I steam bend it to fairly tight radii and it takes very well to steam bending. In fact, for small pieces I just boil them.

In regards to your question about interior woods, you can pretty much use whatever you like, but some woods are more ideal than others due to strength, durability, UV/rot resistance, weight, and beauty. A mahogany or teak interior is going to look amazing, where an ipe interior will be dark and dungeonous. I have used douglas fir, and it is beautiful when varnished, yielding a reddish-orange with visible grain. Also Port Orford Cedar is great for a light colored and lightweight wood. For a darker wood, western red cedar is also lightweight, beautiful, and smells good too!

Although interiors of boats are supposed to stay dry, they do take a lot of changes in humidity and often get unexpected dunkings in bilge water or rain from a hatch being left open. As long as you varnish well and use proper joinery, you should be good with most any wood. The biggest consideration is weight and color. I say color because down below you don't want it too dark.

Anyway, good luck and hope my input helps.

Julie Moriarty
07-29-2013, 10:10 AM
I missed there was more replies. Glad I checked back! You guys have answered my questions above and beyond. Thank you!

We've whittled the list of boats down from every sailboat on Yachtworld ;) to the following:

Front runners:
1. Ericson 38-200
2. Sabre 38

Need to see:
Moody 376
Tartan 37
Cabo Rico 38

The E38 has washboard covers at the companionway. If we buy the E38, I would like to change them to doors. I may be able to use the washboards for rails and stiles but would almost certainly have to buy more wood. So that would be our first woodworking project if we bought the Ericson.

From pictures, some of the boats look like the wood has been neglected and may need replacing. We'll know more when we see them. We're in the Chicago area but there few boats around here meet our criteria, so we're taking a trip next week to the East coast, from MD up to RI, to look at about a dozen boats. In the mean time I'm trying to gather as much information as I can so we have some idea how much $$$ we'll need to fix up the boat before we start making offers.

BTW, has anyone here ever replaced washboards with doors? This is what the E38-200 looks like:
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/resize/1/65/73/4376573_20130603182955620_1_XLARGE.jpg

We've only seen one E38 but it looked doable, though I'd have to find the right type of hinge or narrow the entrance.

Sam Murdoch
07-29-2013, 11:03 AM
Unless you are buying a new boat I do hope you will hire a certified/accredited marine surveyor before making any financial commitment.
Here is a related important read - http://www.northwood-marine.com/uploads/cms-ams_Scams.pdf

Lots of hidden ways a used boat can take all the fun out of boating. Good for you and good luck.

Paul R Miller
07-29-2013, 12:48 PM
I've built several sailboats in your size range, all with doors as opposed to drop boards. They are really pretty easy but there are a couple of things I would point out about converting boards to doors.

For one thing, the boat in your photo has a recessed companionway. Doors when open will make the area narrower, not a problem without the recessed location.

Second, drop boards are usually made smaller at the bottom for ease of installation / removal. This won't usually work for doors so you will want to get the jambs vertical. Filling with a tapered spacer is easiest but would reduce the opening. The better way would be to remove the old jambs, re-cut the opening in the 'glass and re-frame the new opening. Once you have that done, the doors themselves are easy. If you PM me I'll give you any help I can.

Here are a couple of shots of the doors on my own boat.

267477267478

Julie Moriarty
07-29-2013, 2:12 PM
Paul,
WOW! That is amazing work! I'm humbled.

You make a good point about how the door will hinge in the E38. I missed that the angled hinge would conflict with the bridgedeck. Hmmmm... Time to table this until we know which boat wins the lightning round.

John Bailey
07-31-2013, 8:30 PM
Not a boat builder, nor an expert, but I just finished a year long restoration of this Herreshoff H28.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/JohnBailey_01/49cebe72a8e14c8e9f4e93eddfb5953f.jpg

Decks are Teak left natural, frames are White Oak and everything else is Mahogany (including the hull) except the galley tops, which are ash.

I tend to like Mahogany for everything except the decks. Good to work with and beautiful when varnished.

John

Greg Cuetara
08-03-2013, 9:57 AM
Julie I think doors are more of a preference but for me I think they are a pain. I think it depends on what you are planning on doing. If you plan on doing a lot of sailing then doors IMO get in the way and are a pain. You have to figure out a way to hold them out of the way so that they don't bang on everything while sailing. If you are moreso looking for a boat to sit on the dock and doing a little sailing then doors may be easier. Paul does bring up some good points on the doors regarding the swing. If you do go with doors you will probably want to have them swing in rather than out like Paul is showing again because under sail they will get in the way. If you go on long trips you will want to get down below while under sail so keeping them closed may not be an option.

Good luck and always remember the best boat is someone else's.

Greg

Paul R Miller
08-03-2013, 12:57 PM
Doors / boards is definitely a personal preference thing. I have no trouble with my doors being in the way and I sail a lot. They stay closed and I either step over them or open and close them to get in and out. I've never seen doors that swing in on a boat. They depend on the closed sliding hatch as the top jamb when locked up and I don't know how you would get that support if they swung in.

Julie Moriarty
08-03-2013, 3:56 PM
John, you did a restoration in only a year? You must work fast. Beautiful boat! http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/S_THUM1_zps7b71de8b.gif

Greg & Paul, I sailed about 8K miles on my dad's boat. It had two opening doors, that swung out above the seats, and a hinged fold-down section below the seat level. We never had a problem with it. The doors would tuck behind the seat cushions and stay put.

The problem I see with doors that swing in is if there is ever a time a wave hits you from behind and washes into the cockpit, there wouldn't be much other than the lock to keep the water from breaking them open. I've never had that happen, but there have some close calls. Waves in Lake Michigan get steep very fast. When you're standing on the stern and you can't see over the wave that's coming up on you...

We're driving out east tomorrow, first stop Annapolis. We've got four boats and two couples who have boats to see, one we met last year at the boat show. The other has a Moody 376, which we look forward to seeing. But no chance of sailing it. It's on the hard for a major refit. :(

I'd love to dump the house and become a liveaboard but my SO can't work that with the job. I'm not giving up though! ;)

Paul R Miller
08-03-2013, 6:19 PM
Good luck in your search. Your boat is out there , you just have to find it.

Malcolm Schweizer
08-06-2013, 7:36 PM
The Tartan is an awesome sailing boat. I had full access to one and sailed her many times including a few Rolex Regattas and a number of local St. John races like the commodore's cup and the Around St. John race. Sweet sailing boats. This one had a fin keel. I think they had an optional swing keel of some sort which I can't comment on. Down below is roomy enough but not luxurious like some other designs of similar size like the Beneteaus, but by your choices it sounds like you are looking for strong built cruisers. I have heard a lot of good about the Cabo Rico but never sailed one.

Certainly not knocking the Beneteaus... I have fond memories on one.

268069

Julie Moriarty
08-26-2013, 8:41 AM
We looked at a couple of Tartans on our trip, one a T37, the other a 372. Both really nice boats.

When we were looking at the Moody 376, we found the interior not so accommodating for people over 5'6". I'm 5'7" and found headroom restrictive. I had to duck going through every doorway. My SO is 5'11" and said there's no way we could consider this boat.

But while in the aft cabin (before the boat got nixed) I was wondering if I could make some cabin modifications to make the bunk larger.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Sailing/IMG_6107_zpsccc1e03d.jpg
I was thinking of removing the cabinetry on the starboard side (on the left in the picture) to open up the bunk area. As it is, anyone over 5'6" would have to scrunch up to sleep back here. But by eliminating the cabinetry, even my SO might be able to stretch out. I know the picture looks really spacious and inviting, but once inside the cabin, it's really cramped so that fancy seating space would have to go, at least for us.

Paul R Miller
08-26-2013, 11:33 AM
Hi Julie,

Sounds like this is a theoretical question as this boat isn't likely the one so I'll give you my take with a generic response.
You will have to excuse my wood boatbuilder's bias.
The problem you will often have in renovating a 'glass boat is that often it will involve fibreglass work in addition to woodwork as many of the interior components are either 'glassed to the hull or fit into moulded-in recesses in a liner mold. It can turn out to be a much bigger and more involved job than the simple woodworking task of re-jigging the cabinetry. No, I'm not trying to talk you into a wooden boat, but they are much easier to deal with in this regard.

Tom Ruflin
08-27-2013, 3:46 AM
Hi Julie, Another thing to consider is the strength of the companion way doors. In my opinion the main reason for the boards/doors is to keep the sea out of the cabin. Waves coming over the side and into the cockpit can be very powerful and the last thing you want to happen in a storm is to have the companion way open to the sea. I have over 35 years of sailing on both the great lakes and Atlantic ocean and even if you watch the weather, storms can pop-up and waves can build very quickly. I know the boards can be a pain but are also (if properly constructed) very strong. Enjoy your boat shopping, it looks like you are considering some good boats.