Riven wood

[Prashun Patel]

I'm feeling the lure of riving my own logs to lumber.
I'd like to harvest logs that are "liftable" into stock for boxes and chair spindles/legs; so nothing too large.

Any recommendations on froe's, wedges, and drawknives that are good values?

Any advice appreciated.

[Ryan Mooney]

Its worth making a bunch of wooden wedges to hold the split open. They're cheap and easy to make (which is good cause they're disposable). I don't see a huge advantage of plastic wedges over homemade wooden ones excepting the plastic ones are a smidge tougher, but they will still get wrecked eventually and wooden ones are free except for time. You can find metal wedges frequently for a couple of bucks at yard sales, I just buy them when I see them cheap. You only probably need maybe one or two of those. The wooden wedges work well for holding the split open, the metal wedges are more useful for forcing the split open wider.

I have a couple of new-stock draw knives (from garret wade) and am not a huge fan for most uses. My general complaint is that the blades are to "fat" to far forward and the bevel is to steep (would require some significant re-grinding). I have an older one of indeterminate age that I inherited from my grandpa that has a shallower bevel; the thickness of the back is about the same but its a more even taper from the back to the front (actually has a bit of a hollow grind). For me that works a lot better for pealing logs and general work (better == easier). The Austrian Drawknife at lee valley looks closer to my old knife and the lie nielsen are closer but a little different, there are definitely others so also would be interested to see what others have tried. If you can get a good quality old tool imho you'll be pretty happy.

My somewhat limited experience with froes has been for coarser work; mostly things like splitting shingles (and those were easy to split wood like cedar and tamarack). For that use its a pretty blunt force tool so not a lot of refinement was required; the edge just has to be sharp enough to penetrate between the grains, if its to sharp it will start cutting across the grain instead of splitting it. The last ones I used were roughly forged (just to round the eye for the handle and straighten the spring) and ground out of some old car springs :D

A good axe would probably be my first investment. Actually two, I'd get a blunter edged splitting axe and a narrower edged axe (I use an old limbing/saddle axe, but there are probably better) would be my choices. The splitting axe and a maul will get you most of the log splitting capabilities - that and a handful of on site made wooden wedges was all we used for splitting fence rails. The sharper edged axe is nice for limbing, you can also peal logs with it (choke up on the handle some), trimming waste, etc..

The advantage of a froe over an axe for splitting is primarily for shorter logs you can stand on end and for splitting wider splits you can get a straighter start easier. For splitting larger logs in the field personally I prefer an axe and a handful of wedges.

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks for the practical information, I have had the same thought myself in terms of Riving wood.

[Sean Hughto]

I have tried the Barr and LN drawknives. I prefer my vintage Swan. For the price of a good contemporary one, you can buy 10 vintage ones on eBay. Look for good names - Witherby, Swan, PEXTO, etc. - meat left on the blade (still relatively wide) and tight handles - 8 or 10" blades are a good size. That's gonna be your best value in my opinion.

[Paul Saffold]

Lee Valley has a froe (http://www.leevalley.com/US/garden/page.aspx?p=67231&cat=2,44728,45794,67231) for $38.50. I have it but haven't used it yet.

[Patrick Tipton]

I'm feeling the lure of riving my own logs to lumber.
I'd like to harvest logs that are "liftable" into stock for boxes and chair spindles/legs; so nothing too large.

Any recommendations on froe's, wedges, and drawknives that are good values?

Any advice appreciated.

I rive everything for chairs but the pine seats.

I am a big fan of old and used so I would not purchase anything "new".

You can find drawknives at flea markets and antique stores. Look for ones that are not pitted and then rehab them. Buy a couple of different sizes and you will soon develop favorites for different purposes. They should be really, really sharp. That means polished - as nicely sharpened as your best plane blade.

The only time I ever remove bark with a drawknife is when I am being too lazy to rive the bark side clean prior to turning on a lathe, for example when making chair legs. Otherwise, I am putting squarish blanks directly on the lathe and keeping the speed safely slow until the blank is round.

As for froes, I own 3. One is pretty large: 14 + inches by about 3 inches. The second is about 12 by 2 & 1/2 and the third is about 10 by 2. I use the middle one the most.

For short stock (less than 2 feet), splitting/riving is pretty straightforward. Try to keep the splitting sides equal and many American hardwoods will split pretty straight. Equal mass on both sides of the split and the split will travel straight. Too much mass on one side and the split will run out the "weak side". Practice and observe.

With longer stock, you can "tension" one side to direct the split and prevent it from running out. The easiest way to do this is with a "brake". Two wooden sides with a couple of rods inserted between the sides. The subject wood is jammed between rods and then tensioned. By tensioning the wood with one hand and levering the split with the froe in the other, you can control the split from running out. Again practice and observe.

I have a handful of metal wedges. I purchased most of them at farm auctions/garage sales. I have always meant to make a glut but never have. As an aside, big hardwood logs fight pretty good the first split. I am about to split a long white oak (90 plus inches) - waiting for this 90 degree weather to settle before I tackle that project.

Regards, Patrick

P.S. Prashun - don't know where in NJ you live, but you are welcome to take a ride and practice ;-)

[Jim Paulson]

Prashun good to hear that you want to work with green wood. I swear by steel wedges, a broad hatchet, and a couple sledges. I have split various hardwoods, but clear red oak is the easiest one that I work with. I found that the antique froes are far superior to the ones made of flat steel. It really makes a difference to have a wedge shaped blade on the froe. In many instances I'll use wedges and a sledge to split stock just because I can work easier and salvage more pieces. I haven't made a brake or a glut yet, but they will be added to my equipment soon. It is real job to rive out stock from a 14 inch diameter log that is 11 feet long, but it is pretty cool to get furniture stock that way. I don't split stock that is longer than 5 feet right now.
Best wishes,
Jim

[Tony Joyce]

A lot of good info about riven wood on Peter Follansbee's blog.
http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/

Tony

[Prashun Patel]

Yup, I read his blog. Very inspiring.

[Jim Matthews]

You might also get some decent mileage out of a hacking knife, if the log being split isn't large.

I'm taken by what can be done if flat isn't a requirement for riven planks.
The FWW featuring Adrian McCurdy was one of the few in recent memory that really caught my attention:

There's a lengthy video embedded in the article here (http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/42136/adrian-mccurdy-furniture-riven-from-the-log).

The small table at 2:27 is one of the most beautiful furniture pieces I've seen.
I hope someday to visit the man, himself.

[Steve Voigt]

Peter's blog is great. Another great source, if you haven't checked it out, is curtis buchanan's windsor chair series on youtube--45 videos documenting every step of making a comb back. Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTQ2PWVw6ZE) the third, on riving, but check the others out! Almost everything I know about Windsors and green wood, I learned from curtis.

Couple random thoughts on froes:
- I "made" my own by having the local machine shop weld a piece of 5/16 by 2-1/2 steel to a piece of 1-1/2 I.D. schedule 80 pipe. Cost me $30. Sharpened it with an angle grinder and made a handle out of a maple scrap, and I was in business. The dimensions of my froe are very similar to the LV and Ray Iles froes. Having used it for a while, I think that 1/4" thick material would be a better choice. The old froes that Patrick praises above are almost always a lot thinner.
- Patrick's advice to rive in equal thicknesses--that is, to split each piece in half--is generally true, but as you gain experience, you'll find that it's not that hard to split in thirds, as long as you keep the weak side up.
- Just to emphasize something else Patrick touched on: Without a riving brake, a froe is just a wedge. It's the brake that turns the froe into a precision tool.The brake can be super simple--mine is two pieces of pine with two 3/4 pipes jammed through holes.
- Make sure you rive on a hard surface like a driveway or sidewalk, otherwise the froe will just bounce.

Have fun! The green wood thing has been a revelation for me, opening up a whole new dimension of woodworking.

[Steve Voigt]

You might also get some decent mileage out of a hacking knife, if the log being split isn't large.

I'm taken by what can be done if flat isn't a requirement for riven planks.
The FWW featuring Adrian McCurdy was one of the few in recent memory that really caught my attention:

There's a lengthy video embedded in the article here (http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/42136/adrian-mccurdy-furniture-riven-from-the-log).

The small table at 2:27 is one of the most beautiful furniture pieces I've seen.
I hope someday to visit the man, himself.

That's a cool video. The picture at the top of the article will be featured in a future OSHA training film. :D

[Jim Paulson]

Great comments Steve. I've done most of my work preparing chair parts such as spindles, bows, arms, and legs by riving with a Froe just as you described--with one that is made of flat stock and has a back of about 5/16 inch. Leveraging is key to getting the splitting action as you correctly point out. However, after acquiring an old Froe that is more oval shaped and wedge like in cross section, I can't use the flat kind with beveled edge anymore. It is like night and day on the splitting action with the old one. I have one that is hand forged and is as thick as a half inch in the middle (like a bloated wedge) and is still 5/16 inch at the back. It is very sweet and the Froe I'll stick with.

[Ryan Mooney]

You can find drawknives at flea markets and antique stores. Look for ones that are not pitted and then rehab them. Buy a couple of different sizes and you will soon develop favorites for different purposes. They should be really, really sharp. That means polished - as nicely sharpened as your best plane blade.

For the vast majority of uses I'm agreeing 100%. However if you are using the draw knife to split wood (useful for example if you want to follow the grain on a smaller thinner piece and take off that last strip of sap wood) a duller drawknife will follow the grain and not cut across it. Having said that this is a rarer use and you can get close to as "good" (for some value of good) a result from shaving that part off (for most furniture work I can't see the value of not shaving, for something where not ever crossing a grain is critical like a bow back or perhaps some bentwood work it could be useful).

[Jim Matthews]

I believe this is where the describing an awful job as "The Pits" originated.

I kind of like the forklift scaffold, myself. Maybe the top man should rope off to satifsy OSHA.
http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/pitsawing/

[Steve Friedman]

Here's a link to Drew Langsner's explanation of the new Lie-Nielsen froe that he designed. I believe there is a video of Peter using that froe. It is definitely not traditional looking, but is much beefier than the Lee Valley one.

http://www.countryworkshops.org/newsletter34/index.html

Steve

[Patrick Tipton]

For the vast majority of uses I'm agreeing 100%. However if you are using the draw knife to split wood (useful for example if you want to follow the grain on a smaller thinner piece and take off that last strip of sap wood) a duller drawknife will follow the grain and not cut across it. Having said that this is a rarer use and you can get close to as "good" (for some value of good) a result from shaving that part off (for most furniture work I can't see the value of not shaving, for something where not ever crossing a grain is critical like a bow back or perhaps some bentwood work it could be useful).

Ryan

Good point. I was taught to strop a drawknife aggressively to "dub" the blade when it is going to be used for preparing green wood, particularly on things like arm bows that will be bent and will split if you haven't done a good job of following the fibers.

That being said, I still just try to get the drawknife as sharp as I can get it and then pay attention to following the grain. I have one knife that I typically use for making bows and spindles and it usually needs a little work on the water stones before doing a bunch of production.

One other point - bevel up/bevel down. Both work and sometimes one way works better than the other for a particular knife. Some of that has to do with handle angle and some with the blade angle being effectively changed (a sharpening condition). If you prefer to use a drawknife bevel up or bevel down, you can always put one in a vise, heat the handle tangs and then bend to suit your tastes. Probably best to customize that "handle-less" drawknife you purchase at the flea market, though, because the heat will burn the handles. Give you a good excuse to turn a couple of nice handles too!

Patrick

[Paul Saffold]

Here's a link to Drew Langsner's explanation of the new Lie-Nielsen froe that he designed. I believe there is a video of Peter using that froe. It is definitely not traditional looking, but is much beefier than the Lee Valley one.

http://www.countryworkshops.org/newsletter34/index.html

Steve

The LN is listed as 3/8 thick and 1 1/2" wide.
The LV is listed as 5/16 thick and 2 1/2" wide.
So 1/16" thicker. But 1" narrower.
For what that's all worth in the end who knows.
But for someone who wants to give a try at green woodworking without investing heavily, I went with the LV. Cheaper than the questionable merchandise on ebay. I'll ask Drew his opinion of the LV froe when I see him in a couple of weeks.;)

Paul

[Steve Friedman]

I'll ask Drew his opinion of the LV froe when I see him in a couple of weeks.;)
The Ladderback class? I'm jealous. Have only been there once a few years ago and swore I would go back one day. Just ordered some new bowl carving tools from him. He is an amazing guy.

Steve

[Paul Saffold]

Bingo! First time.

[Steve Friedman]

Bingo! First time.
Paul,

Please post a thread when you get back to describe your experience - with pictures would be great. Drew's school doesn't get as much publicity as some others. His story is pretty impressive, starting with cutting down the trees to build the house and and making every piece of furniture in the place. And Louise's food is pretty amazing.

I wanted to learn to make hand hewn bowls, but couldn't make any of the classes. After talking to Drew, he agreed to let me come down between scheduled classes for a few days of private instruction. It was amazing and one of the most interesting experiences of my life. You will love it.

Steve

[ryan paulsen]

Doing some digging, and came across this old thread. Did you ever end up trying to rive your own boards Prashun? I have a couple nice WO logs that I might try this on.

[Prashun Patel]

I haven't gotten around to it yet. Hope you do, and document your process.

[Chris Hachet]

I haven't gotten around to it yet. Hope you do, and document your process.

I bought a Froe back when this thread started and have not done it yet either. My Froe sits in a cubby next to my Festool vac in my shop under one of my benches. Every time I clean something up, I am reminded that I have not tried this yet...

[Zuye Zheng]

Where are you guys sourcing green wood? Would like to try it as well as spoon/bowl carving.

[Jim Koepke]

Where are you guys sourcing green wood? Would like to try it as well as spoon/bowl carving.

A lot of mine comes from my back yard.

In San Francisco you have to watch for trees coming down in a storm. Some times the workers will let you have a good size hunk if they want to get out of a little work.

jtk

[Dave Beauchesne]

I used to have a froe, but gave it away when we moved from Haida Gwaii.
Wanting to have another, I decided to make one, patterning it roughly after the LN offering.
I had a 13" piece of O1 that was 3/8" x2", rough ground the bevel. Got a 2" malleable pipe coupling machined to a slight taper and had a welder buddy tig it to the O1.
Heat treated and tempered it to about RC 56, finished off the grind on the bevel.
Still have to make an 18" handle for it, as well as a whacker: a friend has a yew log that he is giving me that will fit the bill on both fronts.

That is a Stanley #5 in the background for scale. I will use it for splitting some red / yellow cedar perhaps, or riving wood for spindles and dowels.

[Bill White]

I have made my gluts and maul from dogwood. The maul is from the base (root stock) of the dogwood tree. Lots of interlocked grain. Still going strong after all these years.
The froe is one I picked up in an antique mall 20 years ago. Obviously hand forged. Made a new handle for it.
I'll bet that I don't have more than $20.00 in the lot.
Just what I have done.
Bill