Saw with your stupid hand? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Kees Heiden

07-13-2013, 8:21 AM

I wish I could. Also for example for sawing dovetails where one side is always easier then the other side. But I am hopelessly 100% right handed.

On long rips I change from stance several times. The classic stance bend over, or the french style, with saw vertical and hands on top of the handle. Then I switch from one hand on the handle to two. Usually all that dancing around gets me through the cut.

Maurice Ungaro

07-13-2013, 8:22 AM

It's a skill that can be learned, much like shooting a pistol with your off hand. Try it sometime by only using your weak hand and focus on the target, or marked line, as it were.

jamie shard

07-13-2013, 8:27 AM

Ironically, sometimes you can saw better with the dumb hand because you aren't rushing, aren't powering-through, and are paying more careful attention. That ends after your first "beginner's" cut, though. After that, it's your dumb hand again. :)

David Barnett

07-13-2013, 8:30 AM

Can you saw w/ your stupid hand? After an earlier post on getting tired when sawing, I started wondering whether people can saw w/ either hand or just the dominant hand i.e. if you're right-handed only your right or can you "switch hit" w/a saw? What about other tools like hand planing?

One can, with practice, smarten up one's stupid hand for some tasks, which is often training the brain to 'see' for the stupid hand, such as learning to shoot with the weak hand when the dominant hand is compromised or from behind cover.

Planing left-handed in the same I plane right-handed is, at best, a poor burlesque, although I do switch hands when planing on the pull stroke.

I can but don't prefer to dovetail and cut smaller tenons with either hand but prefer my right, and for large strokes and coarser work must execute with my right only. Carving, though, is with both hands—something Nora Hall advocated strongly.

"Today, I have my students do certain cuts, many times over, just to get the hang of one movement with the tools. Many continue practicing cuts when they get home. Learning to carve right handed and left handed is also very important."

Beats the heck out of moving around the work or moving large work to suit one's carving position—often impossible for in-place architectural carving. Most can learn to do this and starting out this way makes it rather more natural. I spoke with Nora several times about chirality and carving in the '90s and we agreed that it seems to improve the carver's ability to see as relates to the craft, as well.

I also can pare with both hands and while I prefer mortising with the right, can do it better left-handed.

Outside of fusing and soldering with both hands, I'm much more right-handed at the jeweler's bench, especially when engraving, and when raising or forming vessels, hammering is purely right-handed—for prehension and accuracy. I sometimes used to switch hit on larger repousse, at least in the less precise forming and lining stages, where repositioning the work my be less convenient. Same when carving and lettering stone.

glenn bradley

07-13-2013, 8:35 AM

The technology boom provided an unexpected benefit when it comes to improved "other-handedness". I spent years working in environments where one would often hold a laptop or other keyed device in one hand and enter data with the other as there was no room to sit. I found that this transferred to my desk work as I use a mouse with either hand, present at the whiteboard writing with either hand, etc. I just use the one that's convenient. I am far from ambidextrous and cannot handwrite with either hand (frankly my handwriting is poor with my "good" hand :o) but, my approach to a hand plane, chisel, screwdriver etc. is pretty inconsequential and that, I find, to be the best unexpected benefit of the dot.com era.

bob blakeborough

07-13-2013, 9:15 AM

I am by nature dominant with my right hand, but also by nature I was dealt a blind right eye at birth, so as I was growing up I had to learn to to do some things left handed like shooting a rifle or bow & arrow, as I could not properly sight otherwise. It was my friends dad who first noticed my troubles target practicing one day, and as he had to learn to shoot left after losing his right arm in an accident, he was able to help me overcome the issue. After learning that, I found I could switch out from right to left with other things fairly easily like swinging a baseball bat, fishing rod, etc., so when I picked up woodworking, I found I had to switch hands frequently while sawing as to line up my eye with the cut depending what side of the line I am sawing to...

It may not be natural to most of us, but it is something that can be learned and improved upon with practice...

David Barnett

07-13-2013, 9:55 AM

It may not be natural to most of us, but it is something that can be learned and improved upon with practice.

Brain plasticity and neural adaptation is an amazing thing. Long ago I learned to switch hands from carpal tunnel in both wrists, one often becoming worse than the other, and later, when my diabetic eyes began to mismatch throughout the day, learned to adapt to that. I'm pretty adept at refocusing my microscopes—never a "set it and forget" proposition—to suit my ever-shifting vision challenges.

Brian Ashton

07-13-2013, 10:07 AM

David Barnett

07-13-2013, 11:21 AM

I've been told it takes about 4 weeks to train your brain to switch things up - something to do with brain elasticity.

That would be neuroplasticity, and is quite variable as to the task being rerouted or relearned. Individuals vary widely, too—some adapt far more rapidly or lag unpromisingly—with age and allostatic load affecting adaptation schedules.

Tony Wilkins

07-13-2013, 11:55 AM

I was 'switched' as a child (i.e. was born left handed and had it beaten out of me until I only used the right) so I always felt like both my hands were 'dumb' hands. Good to know it didn't have to be that way - where was this thread thirty years ago :)

David Barnett

07-13-2013, 12:29 PM

I was 'switched' as a child (i.e. was born left handed and had it beaten out of me until I only used the right) so I always felt like both my hands were 'dumb' hands.

If you've ever seen restraining devices for suppressing left-handedness, you'll know some could be downright medieval.

Here's a scholarly article (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?hl=en&q=ftp://static.lnao.fr/lnao/static/papers/Kloppel-JNS10.pdf&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm2iD7scmTuA79kCChCORBJs6R-6NQ&oi=scholarr) on forced right-handedness and a less-challenging article on handedness and brains (http://wasioabbasi.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/never-force-left-handed-child-to-be-right-handed/).

Is she moving left (counterclockwise) or right?

http://wasioabbasi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/spinning-lady-5693171.gif

If mostly right, right-brain-dominant. If left, conversely.

You can learn to switch.

Fun with chirality, fun with brains.

Mel Fulks

07-13-2013, 1:58 PM

Good info ,David .We had an earlier thread on this subject and I got a couple of rough and dismissive responses for saying same thing.

David Barnett

07-13-2013, 2:26 PM

Good info ,David .We had an earlier thread on this subject and I got a couple of rough and dismissive responses for saying same thing.

Last February, right—I'm starting another Bouchet classical build. Well, anyone who poo-poos chirality issues in brain development and hand-eye-brain rehabilitation is welcome to differ. :)

A good read, by the way, on both neurophysiological and behavioral dimensions is Human Hand Function (http://www.amazon.com/Human-Hand-Function-Lynette-Jones/dp/0195173155). Hand tools are about hands and brains, to me, anyway.

Tony Wilkins

07-13-2013, 3:06 PM

Those were interesting articles David. They definitely jive with my personal experience. Dag nabbed young lady just keeps spinning right.

David Barnett

07-13-2013, 3:11 PM

Those were interesting articles David. They definitely jive with my personal experience. Dag nabbed young lady just keeps spinning right.

Play peekaboo using your hands but leave your eyes open, mixing up your timing, and just maybe she'll spin the other way. Work that corpus collosum.

ray hampton

07-13-2013, 4:58 PM

If you watch her face then you may have trouble figure out the direction of turneing but if you watch her feet, she spins clockwise then spins counterclockwise, if you only watch her but you will not notice the direction
IF YOU ARE working on a car or something else that are held together with bolts and nuts , you may be using both hands to thread the nuts on to the bolts I hold bolt with one hand and turn the nuts with the other hand or hold the nut and turn the bolt

David Barnett

07-13-2013, 5:46 PM

If you watch her face then you may have trouble figure out the direction of turneing but if you watch her feet, she spins clockwise then spins counterclockwise, if you only watch her but you will not notice the direction.

I can switch her direction at will and can perform other parlor tricks on the EEG, which, at least, others can witness. Not quite as impressive as The Men Who Stare at Goats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-PXWlnwtZU), mind you, but it's a start.

My most irritating, and to some, egregious transgression of conventional chirality is my bread resealing technique. I spin the loaf clockwise in my left hand with a quick spank from my right, switch to my right to hold it while twisting the tie counterclockwise with my left. Seems so trivial but drives people crazy.

Mark Dorman

07-13-2013, 6:08 PM

I used to play darts and I could use both hands but was most comfortable with my right. Sawing and layout are right hand mostly. I like the idea of using the hand that works best for the situation; as mentioned for carving.
At first looking at the spinning lady was one derection then looking at the shadow feet it turned the other way. Kind of blew my mind because I was convinced it could only be turning one way.

Adam Cruea

07-14-2013, 5:31 PM

If I concentrate, the girl twirls to the right. If I don't, she twirls to the left.

Oddly, most of the tasks I can do in woodworking can be done with either hand. I used to switch hit in baseball, also. However, I cannot write with my left hand (I can barely write with my right hand, so I don't think much of it).

Bill Houghton

07-14-2013, 7:55 PM

ray hampton

07-14-2013, 8:05 PM

Once you learn that, try hammering with your off hand. I can do all kinds of things with my off (right, in my case) hand, but hammering defeats me. It's such a subtle skill for something that seems so simple.

hitting baseballs or golf balls WILL take both hands, so will a hoe , axe or sledge hammer AND the police advice you to drive with both hands on the steering wheel, If the weather are that bad then I need to stay at Home

Pat Barry

07-15-2013, 12:38 PM

My saw is right handed only. Left handed it works about as good as a regular scissors does for a lefty.

Sam Stephens

07-15-2013, 1:24 PM

that is freaking wild! I watched her one day and my kids kept saying she was changing direction, but I couldn't see it. Since the concept of right and left is sometimes challenging for them, I dismissed it as the usual baloney. Today, i watched it for several minutes with only one direction, looked down, and back up and realized she was going the other way. Now she seems to flip periodically. Have i evolved? Maybe now I'm ready to tackle sawing left-handed!

David Barnett

07-15-2013, 1:56 PM

Today, i watched it for several minutes with only one direction, looked down, and back up and realized she was going the other way. Now she seems to flip periodically. Have i evolved? Maybe now I'm ready to tackled sawing left-handed!

While I'm right-handed and right-eye dominant, I'm facile with both hands and feet—helpful if you've ever played liturgical organ. As I mentioned in my first post, while I can do many things with both my left and right, hammering is a right-hand task only. Coarse sawing is right-handed but I can saw dovetails and small tenons with my left and sometimes switch to sawing with my left at the jeweler's bench.

Although I can saw with my left hand, I use different techniques and visual tricks to coordinate, whereas I can saw naturally and more fluidly with my right.

It's an oversimplification, but when learning new piano repertoire my left brain would get a real workout until I got most of the technicals sorted. Interpretation gradually shifted from left to more and longer right brain activity, with performance mostly the right. Everyone's different. Everyone's corpus callosum is different.

I should clarify that the popularized right-left brain paradigm is a grossly simplistic model of what's actually happening, but it does have interesting and useful implications—intriguing is The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072), by Julian Jaynes. Won't turn you into a switch sawyer, though.

Practice helps, at any rate. I was taught to shoot dominant eye, both strong and weak hands, then switch to my left eye, both hands.

ray hampton

07-15-2013, 3:27 PM

While I'm right-handed and right-eye dominant, I'm facile with both hands and feet—helpful if you've ever played liturgical organ. As I mentioned in my first post, while I can do many things with both my left and right, hammering is a right-hand task only. Coarse sawing is right-handed but I can saw dovetails and small tenons with my left and sometimes switch to sawing with my left at the jeweler's bench.

Although I can saw with my left hand, I use different techniques and visual tricks to coordinate, whereas I can saw naturally and more fluidly with my right.

It's an oversimplification, but when learning new piano repertoire my left brain would get a real workout until I got most of the technicals sorted. Interpretation gradually shifted from left to more and longer right brain activity, with performance mostly the right. Everyone's different. Everyone's corpus callosum is different.

I should clarify that the popularized right-left brain paradigm is a grossly simplistic model of what's actually happening, but it does have interesting and useful implications—intriguing is The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072), by Julian Jaynes. Won't turn you into a switch sawyer, though.

Practice helps, at any rate. I was taught to shoot dominant eye, both strong and weak hands, then switch to my left eye, both hands.

when you use a saw with your right hand , wood or metal , do you guide the saw with the left hand until the saw are in its groove

David Barnett

07-15-2013, 5:32 PM

when you use a saw with your right hand , wood or metal , do you guide the saw with the left hand until the saw are in its groove

It's been awhile since I've pulled out the 26-28" saws, but yes, I generally did guide the initial cut with my left hand unless ripping along the bench top. For dovetails, tenons, most anything with a backsaw, I use only my right, bracing myself against the bench with my left. I will also guide initial cuts on bowsaws.

With hacksaws I use both hands on the frame with my left hand on the front and top. With jeweler's saw frames I generally hold the work with my left against the bench pin and saw with my right—no guide needed.

ray hampton

07-15-2013, 6:38 PM

It's been awhile since I've pulled out the 26-28" saws, but yes, I generally did guide the initial cut with my left hand unless ripping along the bench top. For dovetails, tenons, most anything with a backsaw, I use only my right, bracing myself against the bench with my left. I will also guide initial cuts on bowsaws.

With hacksaws I use both hands on the frame with my left hand on the front and top. With jeweler's saw frames I generally hold the work with my left against the bench pin and saw with my right—no guide needed.

NO-GUIDE NEEDED, I do not think that you are talking about small rings, holding small items without a vise must be difficult

David Barnett

07-15-2013, 7:23 PM

NO-GUIDE NEEDED, I do not think that you are talking about small rings, holding small items without a vise must be difficult

Actually, all you really need for sawing rings is the bench pin. Even sawing a tiny fused jump ring is doable if you can get a finger on it and hold it to the pin. Remember, like a bandsaw the jeweler's saw cuts on the down stroke. When I do need a vise for sawing out parts for settings, I have Benchmates (http://www.ottofrei.com/GRS-BenchMate-Setters-Package.html) and a Magnavise (http://www.ottofrei.com/GRS-Magnablock-Engraving-Block-With-Attachment-Set.html) with all manner of accessories for rings (http://www.ottofrei.com/GRS-004-735-Inside-Diameter-Ring-Holder-With-20-Expanding-Mandrels.html) and everything else. Then there are hand vises and ring vises that wedge into the bench pin, pitch sticks, a hardened miter vise (http://www.ottofrei.com/Bergeon-6499-Jig-Vise-Miter-Cutter-Swiss-Made.html)* for sawing and filing wire, sheet and tubing, and on and on. But the simplest way is often best—if you can hold it to the bench pin and you can see it, you can saw it.

But I was talking about starting dovetails and tenon cuts with only my right hand.

*One of my favorite bench tools—sort of a combination vise & guide that one saws or files flush against—that and the more usual slotted tubing cutter (http://www.ottofrei.com/Hand-Held-Sawing-Jig-Asic.html) are the only sawing guides I can recall for goldsmithing.

Adam Cruea

07-16-2013, 8:21 AM

While I'm right-handed and right-eye dominant, I'm facile with both hands and feet—helpful if you've ever played liturgical organ. As I mentioned in my first post, while I can do many things with both my left and right, hammering is a right-hand task only. Coarse sawing is right-handed but I can saw dovetails and small tenons with my left and sometimes switch to sawing with my left at the jeweler's bench.

Although I can saw with my left hand, I use different techniques and visual tricks to coordinate, whereas I can saw naturally and more fluidly with my right.

It's an oversimplification, but when learning new piano repertoire my left brain would get a real workout until I got most of the technicals sorted. Interpretation gradually shifted from left to more and longer right brain activity, with performance mostly the right. Everyone's different. Everyone's corpus callosum is different.

I should clarify that the popularized right-left brain paradigm is a grossly simplistic model of what's actually happening, but it does have interesting and useful implications—intriguing is The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072), by Julian Jaynes. Won't turn you into a switch sawyer, though.

Practice helps, at any rate. I was taught to shoot dominant eye, both strong and weak hands, then switch to my left eye, both hands.

Now that you mention it, I wonder if playing music from a young age is why I can flip hands for most tasks. So maybe there's the Mozart Effect and some slight ambidextrous effect. :-\

I played clarinet, bassoon, bass guitar, and sax. All two-handed instruments.

Never could play a piano for crap, though.

Charles Wiggins

07-16-2013, 3:02 PM

It takes practice for most of us, but I think most folks could probably do it. I'm a leftie, but I've learned to do some things with my right hand. When I delivered water beds we had to learn to run a drill with either hand to mound the headboard. There was just no way to get your far hand under to handle the drill and drive the screws, so if you were on the left side of the bed you had to run the drill with your right hand.

I don't do a lot of hand sawing but I have done some with my right hand. Last year I was at my parent's house and hour away and my mom wanted a potting bench made out of some scrap lumber we had around. My dad's circular saw bit the dust years ago but he has a decent hand saw so I decided to go at it anyway. When my left should felt like it was about to drop off I decided to try my right hand and I was surprised how well I did. I still had to start cuts with my left, but once I got a good kerf established it was pretty easy to continue with my right. It's all in relaxing and using the "let the tool do the work" approach.

I play guitar (or I should say play at guitar) in the traditional right-hand fashion. I can't even imagine playing left-handed. It just always seemed more natural to use my stronger, more dextrous hand on the fretboard, while picking or strumming seems more like stupid hand work.