Square framing square and lead paint

[Lynn Reid]

Hello everyone...is there a framing square that is truly square? I can't seem to find one...the 24x16 variety. I know you can use a center punch and true them up...but I'd rather buy one square out of the box...they seem to warp after whacking them with a center punch. One I tried actually 1/8" out of square over the 24" leg. Also...if any of you have experience in restoring double hung sash windows with lead paint. A two setting heat gun works best for removing...by far. The low setting is 575 degrees...which doesn't vaporize the lead...but there is a lot of dried paint peels and particles afterwards. It looks so innocuous...but is apparently very dangerous. How do you deal with all this? I would appreciate any help! Thanks!
Lynn

[Mel Fulks]

I like the old squares from yard sales that are thick at 90 degree corner and then taper. I file them,first removing burrs then checking with a starrett straight edge and by looking for parallel lines when flipping the square both ways. They are pretty accurate .The way to keep them that way is to not lend them. Some here insist on expensive highly precise squares ,but keep in mind some of them are highly skilled in metal as well as wood. I wouldn't remove all the lead paint. Just work to non flaking surface and "encapsulate"....with new paint.

[Mark Bolton]

If you punch them on both sides they stay flat. At least flat enough for their intended purpose.

[Mort Stevens]

I know some here may mock me for buying cheap tools, but I have 2 of the Craftsman framing squares, these are aluminum and have a red anodized coating, and they were perfect, inside and out from day one. I never liked the idea of punching to square them, if I had one that way really out of square I think I would take it to a machine shop and have them grind or mill it.

Now for lead paint... lead paint has been around for centuries, until recently you couldn't make a decent paint without lead. I probably still have some lead based paints stored in jars that I bought in the 60's. The threat of lead paint has been exaggerated beyond belief, unless you plan on eating it, and I mean eating *A LOT* of it, the possibility of it posing any harm to you is so tiny that I'd be more concerned about getting AIDS from a mosquito bite while working on the windows!

[johnny means]

I know some here may mock me for buying cheap tools, but I have 2 of the Craftsman framing squares, these are aluminum and have a red anodized coating, and they were perfect, inside and out from day one. I never liked the idea of punching to square them, if I had one that way really out of square I think I would take it to a machine shop and have them grind or mill it.

Now for lead paint... lead paint has been around for centuries, until recently you couldn't make a decent paint without lead. I probably still have some lead based paints stored in jars that I bought in the 60's. The threat of lead paint has been exaggerated beyond belief, unless you plan on eating it, and I mean eating *A LOT* of it, the possibility of it posing any harm to you is so tiny that I'd be more concerned about getting AIDS from a mosquito bite while working on the windows!

Actually, the threat of lead paint is very real after you have moved on and some young couple with small children buys your fixer upper with paint flaking off the baseboards. Lead paint wasn't banned because it was killing 50 year old men, it was poisoning infants and toddlers. Lead paint is sweet and any small child who discovers it will eat *A LOT* of it. There growing bodies also absorb it more than readily than ours and lead is particularly harmful to the developmental process. Either that or all regulations are evil and the government just wanted to ban lead paint for some nefarious communist plot.

Anyway, expecting precision from a tool described as a FRAMING tool is asking a lot. It's like expecting a 2x4 to have be fresh off the jointer, just not its intended purpose. They do sell large precision squares to fill that need.

http://www.woodpeck.com/tsquare24.html

Bit of a price jump though.

As far as your lead paint, clean up really well with a vacuum and you won't have a problem. The laws which govern lead paint removal and such are in place to keep contractors and home owners from leaving a smorgasbord of tasty littly tidbits for the first winkin to happen along.

[Jim Neeley]

Hello everyone...is there a framing square that is truly square? I can't seem to find one...the 24x16 variety. I know you can use a center punch and true them up...but I'd rather buy one square out of the box...they seem to warp after whacking them with a center punch. One I tried actually 1/8" out of square over the 24" leg. Also...if any of you have experience in restoring double hung sash windows with lead paint. A two setting heat gun works best for removing...by far. The low setting is 575 degrees...which doesn't vaporize the lead...but there is a lot of dried paint peels and particles afterwards. It looks so innocuous...but is apparently very dangerous. How do you deal with all this? I would appreciate any help! Thanks!
Lynn

The closest thing I've seen are these 18"x18" carpenters precision triangles (0.001"/ft), a one-time run by Woodpeckers and ordering closes 7/22 with delivery in September, so if you want one you'd have to act fairly quickly. They're like an oversized speed-square, if you're familiar with that carpenters tool and are $150 w/o case or $170 with. Not cheap but you said you'd rather pay for accuracy so... take a look. I have no vested interest in Woodpeckers, just answering your question.

http://www.woodpeck.com/carpentertriangles.html

Jim in Alaska

[Curt Harms]

I guess there's square and then there's SQUARE. I've had pretty good luck with Empire squares in the orange borg. They also make a "fat boy" 3/16" thick aluminum framing square that I've not seen in Home Depot. I've bought a few Empire squares and the only one I've found off was the 45o side of a 16" combination square. I probably should have returned it but spent a few minutes with sand paper instead. I've taken a few framing squares off the rack and stood them back to back on the steel rack framing. They all matched as close as I could discern, I tried the same exercise a few years ago with another brand and they were not consistently square. Plus I think Empire makes most of their products in Mukwonago, WI.

[Steve Keathley]

I live in a 180 year old house with lead paint. I bought an EPA certified hepa filtered shop vacuum to deal with lead paint chips. It's expensive, but not compared to the cost of lead poisoning.

As for removing the lead paint, I don't trust heat guns. Even on low settings. I've been using soy gel with exceptionally good results. You can even reuse it a couple of times.

[Jim Andrew]

I remodeled a kitchen one time, that had several windows the owner wanted to be stripped down and stained. What I did was to remove the sashes, and took them to a strip shop, where they removed the paint and gave the sashes back clean enough to sand and finish. The lucky thing was, the house had storm windows, so I didn't have to do anything but take the sashes out. I also removed all the trim and replaced with new.

[Peter Quinn]

On the lead paint thing, I've restored a pile of old sash, I use a silent stripper infrared heater, doesn't aspirate the lead. I work in a building outside of my home and never near my children. Paint chips won't kill them, won't even harm them. The lead is largely encapsulated in paint resins. Unless they chew it up well. Its the dust. The dust is easily absorbed, can enter the lungs and transfer through all those moist membranes. So when your sash have lead paint and you open and close them, the friction makes lead dust...thats what kills your cats and harms the kids. Get a silent stripper, a good vacuum, a separate work space, a good mask. Remove all the paint and glazing too, seal with a good primer on the faces, reglaze. Lots of good info on this on the web.

For the framing square, I have a few old ones I inherited that are dead on. One is nearly 3/16" thick steel, full rafter chart, pretty sure you could change a tire with it and it would stay square. So check out estate or tag sales for those old goodies. Home centers? Its like playing lottery. Most are losers, you may find a square one, but its a matter of chance. I bought one from Lee Valley, made of stainless, Japanese, very precise, perfect square that lives in my shop for cabinet work. If aren't into tag sales and flea markets, and don't have an old carpenter about to go in your immediate family, I'd check out the Lee Valley Squares.

[Cody Colston]

Regarding lead paint, there will always be those chicken littles proclaiming the sky is falling. Don't eat the stuff and use the same precautions you should use when stripping or sanding any wood. A dust mask is a good idea but treating it like nuclear radiation is a bit over the top. I grew up with six siblings in a home that was covered inside and out with lead paint. Funny, but I don't remember it tasting sweet. As for framing squares, I also have one of those thick aluminum squares and it is spot on. I don't think I even had to punch it. Go through the lot on display until you find one that is accurate.

[zayd alle]

Framing squares are easy to correct. A quick Google search revealed the method I use:

[John Piwaron]

Lead paint - I've replaced almost all the wood with lead paint on it around my house. My wife and I chose this house in part because the interior trim was not painted. All my sashes have been replaced. Not much lead left here. That fact ought to help when my kids sell my house one day.

[Randall Houghton]

Best framing squares are made by Chappell and are available from Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen.

[Shawn Pixley]

Lead paint danger should not be understated. It is dangerous for adults but especially dangerous for children. Depending upon how we are exposed, the half life of lead in the body my be weeks to years. Inhalation is one of the most efficient ways of introducing lead into your body. About 95% of what you inhale will get into your blood stream. I would avoid the heat gun. I also would advise a respirator with the right cartridges rather than a dust mask. You need to avoid bothe the fine particulates as well as lead vapor.

I would estimate there is little danger of acute poisoning in stripping windows. The chronic effect would be worrisome. Once in your system, it will take a long time to get out.

[Mel Fulks]

Lead can be dangerous .I just don't see the point of direct exposure by trying to take it off old work .Some places (at least some) require permits to remove it. At this point wheel weights are the biggest source of exposure to lead,lots of info on line about it ,no action from congress.The most interesting case of poisoning has to be the Franklin expedition ,well covered in the PBS documentary.

[Tom Hammond]

1. On framing squares... go on Craigslist or eBay and get FOUR. Stack them up to verify they're identical. Then, set them against each other so that all their corners are together. They should all fit exactly against each other. If they do, they're all 90 degrees and are fine. Any defects will be easily detectable. AND, you'll have four good framing squares, which anyone doing carpentry on a regular basis can use.

2. On the windows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1bjOENLTQA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Who66aObgQ

I tried the technique for removing the putty, and the paint literally almost fell off.

[Lynn Reid]

Hi and thanks all. I have already watched those videos Tom...but thanks. At one time I rebuilt pianos and refinished furniture on the side. I still have a pour-over and recycle type strip tank and pumps...etc. I used to use methylene chloride and have the burn marks to prove it! It was a very efficient stripper...but I presently don't have the space to do it this way...I always stripped outside but it has rained all summer. I tried mixing up a lye solution...but the wood started turning to fibers before the 100 year old paint came off. I bought a garment steamer...which was slow but worked...you had to have the grain going right or it too would reduce the wood surface to fiber when scraping. Then I bought the two setting heat gun and bingo...paint came off and the wood stayed smooth. I rigged up a box fan in the windows to blow the dust out of the house. I just couldn't some up with a better way...of course I used a respirator. The nearest house is a bit away and I figured the particles would be like Caesars last breath by then. What I had read about lead paint bothered me...but I tend to agree with those of you who think the threat is much exaggerated. I couldn't find just how much lead was used in paint making. The paint on the inside isn't too bad...but the paint on the outside of the sashes, jambs, etc...is alligatored and cracking off in small pieces. At the moment I feel like just selling the house as it is... if it were not my family homeplace and I just inherited it. This has been a very frustrating experience for me even with much prior experience in refinishing. I also think my age (64) is not allowing me to do what I once could. Beyond that...I have already obligated a ton of money for plumbing...etc...I wanted to do what I could myself. I doubt anyone in my family...after me and my wife...will live here so I want to make sure if/when the kids sell the house they will actually make some money.
I am building the kitchen cabinets myself...otherwise I never use a large square in my woodworking which consists mostly of small boxes...and other small things. So...I don't want to invest a whole lot of money in something I most likely will never use again. I beat one square into submission...when checking square it just makes the line a little thicker. The square isn't exactly flat anymore...but it will have to do. I was a hardware store yesterday and bought one...trying my luck. I haven't checked it yet although I figure the odds of it being square would be like winning the lottery.
The floor in the kitchen is not level...but the slope is a gentle one...like an inch over 15 feet...most of that in the last 6-7 feet. I was going to put down stone tiles but didn't think they would lay level. I chose the trafficmaster peel and stick...hoping they have enough flex in them to lay well...with bond enhancer. I took all the old plywood...two layers...with old linoleum above and below it. I am down to the original flooring which I plan to cover with 1/4" hardwood plywood before laying the tile. If I am amiss here...someone please tell me before I make a big mistake!!
Thanks for all of your input,,,I truly do appreciate it. Sawmill Creek is one of my favorite places on the internet...some of you peoples skills are staggering!
Lynn