How to secure saw plate in machined brass back?

[David Kuzdrall]

It looks like by the time I get done posting my saw building questions one at a time that we will have a chapter outline for a saw building book.

this is just about the last question before I start building my first saw. I have a machined brass back with the appropriate slot cut in it and I would like some suggestions on how to secure the saw plate in the slot. I read somewhere that it can be "glued with loctite" but is this the best method?

BTW, is there a definitive book on the topic of building hand saws that I should have for reference?

thx

[Winton Applegate]

Well . . .
having never built a saw I am just the person you want to talk with, right ?
I have a pretty good handle on saws otherwise.
ditto on the loctite.
and I love working metal and machinery in general so maybe we can pull it out.


Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. That means it swells up and gets working like it is supposed to when oxygen is squeezed out of the joint. Like in threads that have been tightened down or between two very close fitting slide together parts in a precision joint (called a tight slip fit; there are more specific designations but that is the gist of it. It slips together if you hold your tung just right ) so not much air there and as it swells even less.


I think you don't need loctite just put the blade in the slot and tap it with a soft block of wood such as lime wood, poplar, willow etc. Alternatively you could squeeze it gently in your wood working vise with leather or soft wood jaws but that might take more finesse not to over do it than just tapping it.


Go easy and if it moves later then you know you need to go a bit more.
I have never ever seen any signs of any substance added to a saw back to hold it in. I am pretty sure they just use a bit of a squeeze and to get it out they just pull it out. Maybe with a squirt of WD-40 to add magic to the event.

PS: If you want to play around with loctite this is the one to use
http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Retaining-Compound-Press-Bottle/dp/B006GOL8XM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373508321&sr=8-1&keywords=loctite+609
One problem later on is if you want to get the blade out of the back you are going to have to heat the saw up some. Not sure how much for this 609 because we just press it out in an arbor press but on the order of 300 º F and that could temper your saw.
You might try a test sample but let it set up for a few weeks.
Yah . . . I know it says it sets up in ten minutes.

[Steve Voigt]

You might want to check this out:

http://www.shopwoodworking.com/build-a-custom-backsaw-dvd-with-matt-cianci-dvd-u9989

[george wilson]

Are you talking about a folded back,or a slit back? When we made dozens of saws for the historic area craftsmen in Williamsburg,we used folded backs. I made a special brake for starting the fold in brass backs. Also,I made a purpose built press for folding backs after they had been folded about like the angle of a slice of pie. That's tech talk.:) We put the V shaped backs in the press,which had copper liners to not mar the brass any more than necessary (saved a bit of extra grinding and extra polishing). Then,we squeezed the backs into the shape of an elongated horse shoe. A bit more open at the top than at the bottom. This is how they should be squeezed. I'd gauge the pressed opening and squeeze it till it was slightly thinner than the blade it was supposed to fit. Then,when the blades were tapped in,the back would grip the blade well. I ground just a slight bevel along the top end of the blades so they wouldn't shave brass off the backs as they were driven in. The backs were annealed at least 2 times or more,depending on their thickness. The largest Kenyon tenon saws had a back that was about 3/8" thick. In this way we avoided cracking the backs. The outside surface of the brass backs has to stretch quite a bit as it is folded. By keeping the backs dead soft,they were able to be stretched without breaking.

By the way,if Loctite hardened without air,how does it keep from hardening in the tubes? Because the tubes are made of plastic that is not completely air tight. It leaks just a little air through the plastic so it doesn't harden. I think that was very clever of the makers. It has a limited shelf life,but that's the price that must be paid.

Here's a picture of 1 batch of back saws. I took no pictures of crosscut and rip saws because I just thought them ordinary tools at the time. I only dragged the photographer over to take pictures of presentation pieces and special things. I should have gotten more pictures made. We even made the saw screws. I made patterns and they were cast at the Geddy Foundry. They were roughly cast in sand like the originals.

The 2 saws pictured separately are early 19th.C. types I made for myself. I liked the beautiful blue temper color,and left it on these saws.

[David Kuzdrall]

Are you talking about a folded back,or a salt back? .

It is a slotted back.

[george wilson]

Salt back: the blasted spell check changes words at will. I always find I have to go back and re type words.

[Winton Applegate]

Isn't it obvious that it is slit back ?


made patterns and they were cast at the Geddy Foundry. They were roughly cast in sand like the originals.

I worked in a bronze foundry for a while.
The level of detail we were able to achieve consistently was quite high. Put it this way. If I left a finger print on the wax casting it would easily be reproduced in the bronze. Ultra fine slurry on the first few layers of the ceramic shells. I was in charge of the ceramic shell operation.

Talk about Noise ! The furnace ran for hours to melt the metal in the crucible and sounded like a jet air craft right next door. Then there were several people on air grinders all day long. Kind of like two stroke weed whackers on steroids. I lived in ear and respiratory protection equipment for years. Like suiting up for outer space. Even then my chest and lungs were not right for a year or so after I quit. Glad I quit when I did.

David,
Incase you like to read.
Go here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loctite

note bullet = Threadlockers and thread sealants in anaerobic liquid and semi-solid formulations

and here :
http://www.henkelna.com/industrial/product-search-1554.htm?countryCode=us&language=en&BU=industrial&param1=application%3D0000000290%7Caction%3Dsearch% 7Cmode%3Dfaceted%7C


Note = Loctite 609 Retaining Compound
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/webkit-fake-url://6D144111-07DF-4389-B49D-93A938AE42D8/8796783116318.jpg

Top Pick Loctite® 609™ is a low viscosity, rapid-curing anaerobic adhesive that augments the strength of press fit assemblies or slip fit assemblies up to 0.006" in diameter. Adds up to 3,000 psi holding power. Recommended for parts that will need subsequent dismantling, i.e., retention of bearings onto shafts and into housings. Mil Spec (R-46082B) Type I.

George,
Nice work on the saws by the way. I am glad you are able to come to the aid of the OP.
I think if you and I combined our shops we could make space craft.
Where should we go first ? Venus or Mars ?

[Kees Heiden]

George, some marvelous saws you made! But, no beech handles? :eek: (just kidding of course).

Do I see a tapered spine on that dovetail saw?

[Jim Koepke]

BTW, is there a definitive book on the topic of building hand saws that I should have for reference?

At norsewoodsmith.com there is a file (.pdf 61 pages).

The site has been changed since last time I looked. Had to use the site's search function search > making a backsaw <. The top of the results is mostly adds scroll down a bit to find the file. There is also other backsaw information.

jtk

[george wilson]

The 2 saws I made for myself are curly maple. Tapered back. All the saws on the 16 foot bench had the usual beech handles like most originals had. Mine were not intended to be strict reproductions. They just had my favorite features and fancier wood. Saws used in public in the museum were strict copies mostly of Kenyons,with the earliest type being Whites,a brand popular in Va. in there 18th. C.,but only 1 original survivor is known. A crude looking saw with obviously under developed handle form,cheap folded rather thin iron back,and square nutted screws rather than the later specialized saw screws.

See below,pictures of one of our repro White tenon saws. It is a strange looking thing. The blade protrudes from the folded back as if they hadn't yet figured out how to terminate the folded back. Notch in the front en of the back. Non specialized saw screws. Very tapered blade.

Also,a little Dalaway dovetail saw. Tapered back. Somewhat under developed handle shape. One of our most popular saws due to the thin .015" blade,like the originals. Not particularly well finished,like the originals. We copied the old tools in degree of finish as well as shapes,etc. Earlier English tools were not well finished for the most part. The Kenyon sawed were late 18th. C.,and were much better designed and well finished. In the 19th. C.,my favorite period for tools,they became better and better,like the 2 saws I made for myself.

These are accurate reproductions of rather crude original tools,not to be compared with the carefully finished custom saws being made today by various small makers.

Some others have tried to copy the White saw,but none of them has gotten it exactly right yet.

[Chris Griggs]

I never get tired of seeing that pair of saws with the curly maple totes George. Every time I see them it makes me want to make more, just to see how close I can come to getting mine to look as good. I'm going to redo one of the saw handles I made last fall, perhaps I'll use some curly maple (though I do love walnut handles). What did you finish those with. That color look suspiciously like Siam seedlac....Is it? Or is it dye or amber shellac?

[george wilson]

I didn't read the first post well enough. I was tired. Yes,slit back.

Chris,the handles of my saws were just oiled. I stained them a little first. I think finishes are bound to get scratched on tools like saws,that get laid down on busy work benches. Oil scratches less than shellac or lacquer finishes.

It is always surprising how many have not seen these pictures,though I've posted them before,and they are in the faq.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris,the handles of my saws were just oiled. I stained them a little first.

Wow,that's it, cool. I wouldn't have known that a little stain would bring out the figure that nicely. Very cool. Obviously, you picked some nice wood too, which I guess is the primary factor. That's something I need to continue to improve at....picking the right piece of wood.

I hear you on the scratching aspect, definitely a good reason to stick with just oil. Mine are oiled but then I liked to put a thin coat of shellac on the top just because I like the feel. Some people find film finishes to slippery for handle I guess, but I like the silky feel of rubbed out shellac more than just oiled wood. Definitely, does get scratched once in a while, though not often...if its bad enough to bother me I just rub it back out with a bit of steel wool. I would never want to put any type of heavy build finish on a saw handle like a varnish or lacquer, both for feel sake and for scratching. Shellac at least is very easy to repair if I ever I ever get a scratch the bothers me too much.

I've done Watco before which I found to be nice on tool handles but I think I even went back and put a bit of the Bullseye seal coat over those, again, just because I like the silky feel.

I think I've hear you or someone else say they love that Tru-oil stuff too.

[george wilson]

Winton,actually,using fine facing sands,the foundry in Williamsburg could capture finger prints,when casting a fine silver object. However,if you've ever taken apart a real old saw,the saw screws are very crude indeed. The edges of the ground down screws have visibly crusty edges. One of the original saws we copied,a Cartwright (another early-ish 18th.C. saw),had had its screws hammered into the cavity so it was ground flat,but looked a little like a fried egg! Things got better in the 19th.C.,but the screws were still rough inside.

[Chris Griggs]

George,

Question about tapering the spine. I assume that then you file it to a taper you file the side that the back goes into, right? Since the back is folded does this potentially create problems with the fold not being tight where you file away the material? As in, the back is folded so that it closes fairly tight at the edge where the two sides of the fold meet? So if you file away this meeting point more and more as you approach the toe, is there a risk of having the back not grip the plate tight enough at the toe? If so how do you correct this or prevent it?

Also, when you seat the plate in a tapered back do you seat it all the way in, seat it a set distance from the top of the spine/from the full depth (which would mean the plate is further in the spine at the heal because of the taper), or seat it based on a set distance from the opening of the spine (which would mean that the plate is in the back an equal amount all the way down the spine)? Come to think of I'd be curious to know your thoughts on how far plates should be seated anyway. I seated mine all the way because I didn't know any different, but than I ran across things that said plates can be seat in like 3/8" of an inch (maybe less don't recall). What are your thoughts on this?

Hope that all makes sense. Thanks!

[Kees Heiden]

A few whacks with a hammer would solve that Chris.

Thanks for the pictures and all the information George. I've probably seen them before, but my memory isn't what it used to be....

[Isaac Smith]

David, Mike Wenzloff used to glue his in with LocTite, and I assume he still does. He wrote at one time that he used the medium LocTite, and that he found the strong (the one that requires heat to release) was too brittle.

I have chosen to use friction instead of glue for my slots. I mill the slots at the same thickness as the blade, then squeeze them so that the opening is about 0.005" thinner than the blade. Then I just pound the blades into the slot with a wooden club (before cutting any teeth). This is an extremely strong friction fit, and requires some effort. I'm not sure if it is even possible to squeeze the slot closed with ordinary woodworking tools. I used a Kurt machinist's vise on the first few I made, and that required considerable effort. I now do it with a hydraulic press, and to do a 12" spine requires from 10-12 tons of force. Of course, you can do a smaller section at a time, which will reduce the force required.

I don't know if you have access to any of this, but if you do it is another option to consider. If you try this method, make sure you round the back of the saw plate over before trying to insert it. Don't use a knife edge, as it can wander off track. Also make sure the saw plate is well supported on both sides (clamp a piece of wood on each side) so that it doesn't buckle or bend as you pound on the spine.

[Kees Heiden]

George, I have totally fallen in love with that Dalaway dovetail saw. Do you still know the length of the sawplate?

[David Kuzdrall]

Thank you all for the replies! I will keep the group posted as to my direction!

george, great photos btw!

[george wilson]

I'll have to see if I can find that out for you,Kees. Personally (Remember,I was paid to copy original tools) ,I didn't find that saw's handle or back very exciting. It was very popular with the craftsmen due to the thin,.015" saw plate. Left a kerf no wider than a sharp pencil mark.

My own open handle dovetail saw pictured here has a .015" saw plate. It seems that makers have been afraid to make saws that thin for fear the customer will bend or break it and want a replacement. Perhaps by now some makers are offering a saw that thin. I can't remember right now.

[Kees Heiden]

0.015" is indeed very thin, less then 0.4mm. Gramercy has a similar saw, but the plate is 0.018".

Your own saw is very beautifull, but my taste always prefers the more mundane things in life. The Dalaway has just the right amount of embellishment. For example I like that curve at the toe end of the spine.

[george wilson]

Chris: Your post is a little confusing. There was no problem with the tapered back gripping at the front of the saw. If you look at the Dalaway,it has a narrower back than mine has,and a rounded tip too. None of our repros have failed yet. I closed the backs thinner than the blades and tapped the blades into the backs. You certainly could spread a little Loctite along the edges of the backs and let it wick in if you think a back might not hold tightly enough. The old makers just relied on their brass backs to hold,though I have seen a few old saws with blades that slipped. I got my original closed handle Groves saw cheap($50.00,not TOO cheap at the time) that way. I put the front edge of the blade in a vise,and tapped the front of the back straight back,jerking the blade straight. As long as there is no CREASE in the blade,it can be jerked perfectly straight.

[Don Orr]

David, You have recieved a great deal of excellent information so far, which I will reiforce with my extremely limited experience. I have built a grand total of 1 backsaw-so far. I took a class with Matt Cianci-The Saw Wright-at the Connecticut Valley School of Woodworking to build a backsaw. It was a great time and my saw came out very well. We were supplied with a toothed saw plate (0.020" thick, 14 ppi), 2 saw nuts, a milled brass back with a 0.020" slot, and a piece of wood for the tote. To mount the plate in the back, Matt brought a large, thick steel plate and a special hammer so we could close the slot a little before we drove the plate into the back for a friction fit. It worked very well and we had to pound quite a bit harder than you would think on brass to get the slot to close up enough. A bit of work on each side did the trick. Simple but effective. Start out gently and keep checking the fit of the plate to the back. Try to keep the slot even all the way along its length or you can warp the plate. Drive the plate into the back, not the other way around.

Good luck!

[george wilson]

I always made efforts to do as little damage to saw backs as possible when making them,to save time and the trouble of filing or grinding out dozens of backs,which was no fun. If I had to close a saw back at home,having left my special presses at work,I'd carefully squeeze them with my smooth jawed machinist vise. I'd take it in steps,working along the back,to eliminate bite marks from the corners of my vise.

It is difficult to find a machinist's vise that doesn't have the obnoxious diamond pattern in the jaws. They have caused so much damage,often seen in old objects that have been clamped in them. I grind my jaws smooth with my belt grinder whenever I get a new vise. This can be done with an ordinary 6" x 48" belt SANDER,common in home shops.(The difference between a sander and a grinder is the grinder goes a lot faster. It would burn wood,but grinds metal better). Make sure the platen is not worn out of flat,grooved by wear,etc.. I'm suspicious of the trueness of graphite cloth covered platens,too. Be careful,check everything.

I would not try to grind the vise jaws with just a portable belt grinder. The platen is not real flat,and is too short anyway. Those jaws are hardened,and MIGHT file,but it would take a lot of work to file them flat. The important thing is to make sure the smoothed jaws are FLAT and PARALLEL to each other,so the vise closes evenly. It does take some skill to do this. Once done,the vise is much friendlier to your surfaces,though. Of course,this can only be done if the jaws are removable. A surface grinder in a machine shop would insure the best job,but they might charge a lot.

You could buy precision ground tool steel (01 is common) bars,which come annealed. Carefully drill out the holes to fit your vise,and hack saw them off. For home shop use,they really don't have to be hardened.

[Pat Barry]

Hi George and all, The pictures provided made me curious about the theory behind the position and location of the tote with respect to the cutting edge. See image. Is there a rule about shaping and placing the tote based upon the intended use of the saw or is this something that has become accepted practice over the years or maybe its just the discretion of the maker?

266319

[Chris Griggs]

Chris: Your post is a little confusing. There was no problem with the tapered back gripping at the front of the saw. If you look at the Dalaway,it has a narrower back than mine has,and a rounded tip too. None of our repros have failed yet. I closed the backs thinner than the blades and tapped the blades into the backs. You certainly could spread a little Loctite along the edges of the backs and let it wick in if you think a back might not hold tightly enough. The old makers just relied on their brass backs to hold,though I have seen a few old saws with blades that slipped. I got my original closed handle Groves saw cheap($50.00,not TOO cheap at the time) that way. I put the front edge of the blade in a vise,and tapped the front of the back straight back,jerking the blade straight. As long as there is no CREASE in the blade,it can be jerked perfectly straight.

Thanks for the info George. Always much appreciated. Yes, my post was confusing...couldn't quite figure out how to describe what I was visualizing.The saws I made have slotted backs and there is no issue with slippage. I just thought that perhaps filing away the area of the back where it closes might remove the part of the back where it is gripping the plate the tightest - seems to be a non issue though.

I kinda want to go back and taper the backs on my shop made saws now, but they're pretty nice as is so I should probably just leave well enough alone... I have a habit of trying to fix things that aren't broke and then breaking them for real in the process.

Thanks again George. This is really making me want to make more saws

RE: Thin plates. I think they're great. The DT saw plate I bought from Wenzloff is .018" (well that's what I ordered though I haven't measured it), and I love it.

LN is now making a thin .015" DT saw. If I were buying a new DT saw that is what I would buy. Now that they have made their DT saws 10" I think they have ideal proportions, and the thin plate was super nice to use when I played with it at a show. Price ain't bad too.

[george wilson]

Yes, Chris, now that you remind me,I recall the thin LN saw. I am not looking for new tools like many of you. My shop is old and well established. So,I am not always in the know about new tools being offered.

[Mel Fulks]

Just last night I found some interesting comments written by Adam Cheribini ,on his site ,about that very subject .Google it.

[george wilson]

Pat,there are variations among makers about the angle of the saw handle. Probably based upon what feels most comfortable to the particular maker. I'm sure discussion of this will follow. My personal dovetail saw has more angle than the Dalaway. I could pick up either one and do just fine with it.

Years ago I was going to make a free guitar for a Mexican friend who was a terrific singer. Every day or so he'd come back to me with a different idea as to how large he wanted the body. Finally I jokingly suggested that I make the guitar out of rubber. He could blow it up to a different size every day! I doubt everyone is going to agree about handle angle.

[Pat Barry]

From a physics perspective I thought that little saw in the picture had much too tilted of a handle. Seems more positioned for putting down force on the blade than forward thrust. Thats what prompted my question.

[Chris Griggs]

From a physics perspective I thought that little saw in the picture had much too tilted of a handle. Seems more positioned for putting down force on the blade than forward thrust. Thats what prompted my question.

Thats funny, when I looked at it I though the exact opposite...that is, the hang looked kinda low for a dovetail saw. Ideal hang depends a lot on work holding height too. For a high up moxon vise a low hang that puts force behind the saw would be pretty nice. I, however, cut DTs in my leg vise so my saw has a fairly high hang that keeps me from having to stoop.

[george wilson]

Since the saw was made during the era when hand tools were constantly in use (as opposed to power tools),I'd say the saw was designed not from an ergonomic or physics stand point. I have little doubt that those saw makers even ever heard those words. The saw was based upon practical,every day knowledge of the tool's use. I haven't had a problem using the saw. It is a favorite with the Cabinet Shop. Mack Headley told a forum the saws were the very best that could be had.

Of course,I didn't design the saw,I'm just saying that it was designed by users in the days when men really depended upon their tools.

The saw is light and needs some downwards thrust. My personal saw,illustrated here,has even more angle to the handle.

[Mel Fulks]

You are certainly correct ,George . Interesting that both of your descriptions are really the same . The modern one just connotes the addition of "we are modern people and smarter than they were" .

[David Kuzdrall]

David, You have recieved a great deal of excellent information so far, which I will reiforce with my extremely limited experience. I have built a grand total of 1 backsaw-so far. I took a class with Matt Cianci-The Saw Wright-at the Connecticut Valley School of Woodworking to build a backsaw. It was a great time and my saw came out very well. We were supplied with a toothed saw plate (0.020" thick, 14 ppi), 2 saw nuts, a milled brass back with a 0.020" slot, and a piece of wood for the tote. To mount the plate in the back, Matt brought a large, thick steel plate and a special hammer so we could close the slot a little before we drove the plate into the back for a friction fit. It worked very well and we had to pound quite a bit harder than you would think on brass to get the slot to close up enough. A bit of work on each side did the trick. Simple but effective. Start out gently and keep checking the fit of the plate to the back. Try to keep the slot even all the way along its length or you can warp the plate. Drive the plate into the back, not the other way around.

Good luck!

You did this pounding on a toothed saw plate? I am guessing that you had some amount of wood between the hammer and the teeth?

Do you have any photos of the steel plate and hammer you used to close the gap?

THX

[george wilson]

Hence my suggestion to squeeze them gradually in a smooth jawed machinist's vise. Saves a lot of time in belt grinding them afterwards so you can taste brass the rest of the day.

[David Kuzdrall]

Hence my suggestion to squeeze them gradually in a smooth jawed machinist's vise. Saves a lot of time in belt grinding them afterwards so you can taste brass the rest of the day.

George, this thread got more popular than I expected and I missed the responseyou referenced above from this morning.

thx.

[Ron Bontz]

Pat,there are variations among makers about the angle of the saw handle. Probably based upon what feels most comfortable to the particular maker. I'm sure discussion of this will follow. My personal dovetail saw has more angle than the Dalaway. I could pick up either one and do just fine with it.

Years ago I was going to make a free guitar for a Mexican friend who was a terrific singer. Every day or so he'd come back to me with a different idea as to how large he wanted the body. Finally I jokingly suggested that I make the guitar out of rubber. He could blow it up to a different size every day! I doubt everyone is going to agree about handle angle.

I have been following this post off and on. George is right about preference on hang angles. It really depends on body mechanics, work piece height, as well as what one feels comfortable with. Lots of factors involved. I also doubt that the earlier saw makers really took the time to calculate all the vector forces involved in saw design. This is why I have two saws that can be used as dovetails. Is there any wonder to the number of hang angles noted on Back saw.net?
With respect to compression of the brass spines.....George has the best answer with respect to being practical. Unless, of course, you want to build a special jig, like I did, just for that. Mine compresses about 16" at a time and the spine lays between two heavy duty milled pieces of steel to make sure the spine, which is milled to within approx. 0.001" dead flat, stays flat. It's the last thing I do before putting the spine on for the last time. A couple of pieces of paper generally help to prevent too much marring. Taking a hammer to a brass spine doesn't sound like such a good idea to me.

[Kees Heiden]

Taking a hammer to a brass spine doesn't sound like such a good idea to me.

No indeed, it means quite a bit of filing and sanding to remove all the hammer marks. But what can you do when you have only a normal vise?

I always wonder how they did it back in the 18th century.

PS: oh wait, I see George recommends a normal machinist vice but one with smooth jaws. Apart from filing or grinding the jaws, you can also get some brass or aluminium in between the jaws and the "saw back in need of pressing".

[george wilson]

Good advice,Kees. Since I have the means to cut the jaws smooth,I didn't thing of masking them with soft metal.

Yes,I am too lazy to have to grind out hammer marks from brass backs!! Especially when I was making dozens of saws. I did all possible to make the job easier and faster. The craftsmen wanted their tools!!

[Steve Voigt]

PS: oh wait, I see George recommends a normal machinist vice but one with smooth jaws… you can also get some brass or aluminum in between the jaws and the "saw back in need of pressing".

In the machine shop, we used to make "soft jaws" out of 6061 aluminum for the mill vices. That might work better than trying to rig loose pads between the jaws.
One thing to watch out for is to make sure that the full surface of each jaw is actually meeting the opposing jaw. I suspect that one reason they use the heavy cross-hatching on "machinist's" vices is so that the vice will still grip even when the jaws aren't lined up perfectly. Probably more of an issue with a cheap import vice than with an old Wilton or similar.

[David Kuzdrall]

PS: oh wait, I see George recommends a normal machinist vice but one with smooth jaws. Apart from filing or grinding the jaws, you can also get some brass or aluminium in between the jaws and the "saw back in need of pressing".

How much should a "normal" machinist vise cost? I see things with that description from $300 - $1800...

[David Weaver]

$30-$50 at a flea market for a good 5" bench vise.

[David Kuzdrall]

$30-$50 at a flea market for a good 5" bench vise.

Something like this but used?
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_23993_23993

[Ron Bontz]

You don't need to spend that kind of money for one saw. PM sent.

[David Weaver]

Something like this but used?
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_23993_23993

Yes, something like that. Even if not useful for the saw in your case, it will be useful for tons of things you don't want to expose your WW bench vise to. I use a vise like that with two sprung boards to sharpen saws. I've used it extensively for making (infill) planes.

[george wilson]

Be careful to not abuse these cheap vises by hammering on stuff held in them. I bought 2,one for me and 1 for my friend Jon. He promptly broke his. The cast iron in these cheap vises is not very strong at all. They are o.k. for normal use,but not for blacksmithing and hammering.

[Don Orr]

David, yes we had a piece of wood on the teeth of the plate as we drove it into the back.

I don't think have any photos but will look if I remember.

[Chris Griggs]

You did this pounding on a toothed saw plate? I am guessing that you had some amount of wood between the hammer and the teeth?

Do you have any photos of the steel plate and hammer you used to close the gap?

THX

I use the softwood "bat" method to hammer my plates into backs. I just grab a piece of scrap pine round over one edge of it for hitting and then taper one end so I can grip it. I then plow a groove in another scrap to set the spine in and hammer in the plate starting at the toe using the bat. This is the method that TFWW/Gramercy uses to seat their plate in their folded spines. The "bat" gets all chewed up but that's kinda the point...it gives before the teeth or plate do. Works great!

The method is illustrated here on pg. 4. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/gt/pdf/GT-CKITXX_INST.pdf

[Don Orr]

Taking a hammer to a brass spine doesn't sound like such a good idea to me.

You're right of course but it was what we had available to us in the class. Mine actually came out with very few noticable hammer marks. If I was building incredibly beautiful saws like yours I would do it the way George describes as well as what you describe. Your saws are truly functional works of art. This was most likely a one-time thing for me and I had a good time doing it. Matt is a funny and interesting guy.

[David Kuzdrall]

David, Mike Wenzloff used to glue his in with LocTite, and I assume he still does. He wrote at one time that he used the medium LocTite, and that he found the strong (the one that requires heat to release) was too brittle.

I have chosen to use friction instead of glue for my slots. I mill the slots at the same thickness as the blade, then squeeze them so that the opening is about 0.005" thinner than the blade. Then I just pound the blades into the slot with a wooden club (before cutting any teeth). This is an extremely strong friction fit, and requires some effort. I'm not sure if it is even possible to squeeze the slot closed with ordinary woodworking tools. I used a Kurt machinist's vise on the first few I made, and that required considerable effort. I now do it with a hydraulic press, and to do a 12" spine requires from 10-12 tons of force. Of course, you can do a smaller section at a time, which will reduce the force required.

I don't know if you have access to any of this, but if you do it is another option to consider. If you try this method, make sure you round the back of the saw plate over before trying to insert it. Don't use a knife edge, as it can wander off track. Also make sure the saw plate is well supported on both sides (clamp a piece of wood on each side) so that it doesn't buckle or bend as you pound on the spine.

This is the way that I went and it worked perfectly. I used the press to close the slot just to the point of touching, it then rebounded to the perfect point allowing a good fit without having to beat the heck out of the plate. I added some blue loctite just to be sure but after I finished installing the plate in the back I don't think I needed it.

it only tools few passes over my granite plate topped with sandpaper to get the marks from the press out and I am happy with the results.

thanks for all the suggestions!

[Scott T Smith]

David, it was great to see you and Stephanie again today; I'm glad that my press did the trick for you. I can't wait to see the finished product.

Scott

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I use the softwood "bat" method to hammer my plates into backs. I just grab a piece of scrap pine round over one edge of it for hitting and then taper one end so I can grip it. I then plow a groove in another scrap to set the spine in and hammer in the plate starting at the toe using the bat. This is the method that TFWW/Gramercy uses to seat their plate in their folded spines. The "bat" gets all chewed up but that's kinda the point...it gives before the teeth or plate do. Works great!

The method is illustrated here on pg. 4. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/gt/pdf/GT-CKITXX_INST.pdf

TFWW had some videos of this as well (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/198/title/How%20to%20Install%20a%20Saw%20Blade%20in%20a%20Fo lded%20Back)

[David Kuzdrall]

David, it was great to see you and Stephanie again today; I'm glad that my press did the trick for you. I can't wait to see the finished product.

Scott

great seeing you as well and thanks again for the use of the press!

[Jamie Bacon]

No indeed, it means quite a bit of filing and sanding to remove all the hammer marks. But what can you do when you have only a normal vise?

I always wonder how they did it back in the 18th century.


I too would be very interested to know how they folded the brass backs in the 18th century.