Wenzloff Saws

[Tony Wilkins]

Just wondering if anyone has ordered and received a saw from Wenzloff and Sons lately. Saw a thread similar about two years ago but I had received one for Christmas from my wife (I ordered it). I got the Seaton rip pannel saw and I'd like sometime in the near future to get a matching cc panel saw. I see that the 'regular' panel saws are in stock at LV but the Seaton one has been listed as out of stock for quite some time. Haven't had a response back to my emails. Are they still doing saws through their site?

Sorry if I'm poking the hornet's nest if this has been done to death but I didn't see it discussed lately.

Guess I'll look for one vintage if they don't; kinda kicking myself for not picking up the Harrell-tuned Harvey Peace 18" panel saw he had up recently ;)

[David Weaver]

Until people start posting about how Mike's backlog is clear, I would wait until LV has them in stock again and order from them. They might never be, but it seems your chances of getting a saw through LV are probably better.

[Chris Vandiver]

For the amount of money you'd pay for a Wenzloff panel saw, you'd be way better off buying a refurbished vintage saw from someone like Daryl Weir. It would take far less time to get it, plus the good vintage hand saws are better tools. Something like a Disston #7 or a #12.

[Tony Wilkins]

Definitely opened to that Chris. Not familiar with Daryl Weir, I'll google him.

[Chris Vandiver]

Here you go Tony; http://home.grics.net/~weir/Old_SAWS_Restored.html

[Lloyd Robins]

Chris, I have been watching the saw on ebay and other sites (being in a non-old tools area), and the prices of old and new saw are getting closer and closer. You can still find an occasional good deal, but saws from Daryl Weir, Bad Axe, and other sellers with a good rep are usually within $50.00 and often more expensive for the most desired saws, and buying from pictures for the inexperienced can be rather hit or miss. The saws may be better, I don't have the kind of experience to say on that point, but costs are quite close any more for those of us who have to use the internet.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Daryl Weir has a Disston tenon saw that is as expensive as the equivalent Lie-Nielsen.

[Chris Vandiver]

Daryl Weir has a Disston tenon saw that is as expensive as the equivalent Lie-Nielsen.


I'm saying that I think that vintage saws are potentially better than new. I'm pretty darn sure that the Disston saw that is listed on Daryl's site is at least as good as an LN saw or any modern made saw, for that matter. And the sharpening is second to none.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm saying that I think that vintage saws are potentially better than new.

Better steel, fresh assembly, and careful sharpening techniques are all hallmarks of modern makers.
If you're buying them cheap at a tag sale and cleaning them up - they're bargains.

Every ancient saw is a rehab project that will never end. I've got plenty of them - none are better than the saws made last year by Ron Bontz.

Otherwise, the new stuff is far superior to the antiques.

[Steve Meliza]

I was out at the Wenzloff shop about a month ago to get a saw sharpened. Rest assured, they are hard at work making saws as fast as they can and had a whole bunch in the works to send to LV that were probably already sold. When I inquired about his backlog he chuckled in a way that give me the impression it was too deep to measure. For the time being you're probably best off buying through LV.

[Chris Griggs]

All I know is that if he ever offers folded backs again at the prices he previously did, I'm going to snap up at least 10 in the longest length he'll sell me so that I'm set for life in terms of building saws.

[Charlie Stanford]

I'm saying that I think that vintage saws are potentially better than new. I'm pretty darn sure that the Disston saw that is listed on Daryl's site is at least as good as an LN saw or any modern made saw, for that matter. And the sharpening is second to none.

I think we easily forget how big a mass-manufacturer Disston was in its day. I suspect were they in business today they would be sneered at in favor of the boutique makers already mentioned in this thread. It's amazing how being out-of-business raises one's stature in the world. Disston was never anything like a boutique, specialty operation, was never conceived as such or anything near it.

I think that the current batch of sawmakers, the ones actually able to fill an order, just plain make a better saw.

[David Weaver]

I think that's true for the backsaws (the modern 1095 ones are nicer to use with more consistent steel, and even in the old ones, the english saws are nicer than the american saws in materials (brass backs, split nuts - not that split nuts are functionally better, they just look miles better), plate thickness and handle style and orientation). I don't think anyone has made a modern carpenter or panel saw that is as good as a disston #12, or simonds' best offerings, though.

I'm sure they all saw just fine.

How many people who have done a lot of handsawing would want an 18" saw with no back, though? I think using a saw like that would get old pretty quickly.

[Kees Heiden]

Indeed. Backsaws are made in fine quality nowadays and the good old ones are very old now with all the problems of pitting in the steel and cracked handles and all that.

But handsaws are a different matter. The old guys had taper grinding and hammer tensioning down to an art. Where do you buy a generously taper grinded handsaw with the proper tension in a 26" length nowadays?

I just ordered an old Spear and Jackson in England. I'm thrilled.

[Chris Hachet]

Chris, I have been watching the saw on ebay and other sites (being in a non-old tools area), and the prices of old and new saw are getting closer and closer. You can still find an occasional good deal, but saws from Daryl Weir, Bad Axe, and other sellers with a good rep are usually within $50.00 and often more expensive for the most desired saws, and buying from pictures for the inexperienced can be rather hit or miss. The saws may be better, I don't have the kind of experience to say on that point, but costs are quite close any more for those of us who have to use the internet.I have noticed the same thing.

[Chris Hachet]

Better steel, fresh assembly, and careful sharpening techniques are all hallmarks of modern makers.
If you're buying them cheap at a tag sale and cleaning them up - they're bargains.

Every ancient saw is a rehab project that will never end. I've got plenty of them - none are better than the saws made last year by Ron Bontz.

Otherwise, the new stuff is far superior to the antiques.Interesting take on this from someone who seems to know his saws. I was going to look for a used dovetail saw, as I am getting ready to upgrade, but after using the Lie Nielson and the Bad Axe, I think I am just going to order a Lie Nielsen. The Bad Axe is a better saw, but not worth another hundred bucks IMHO. At least until I take the non Schwarz approach to things and find I need three dovetail saws...

[Steve Voigt]

Chris, I have been watching the saw on ebay and other sites (being in a non-old tools area), and the prices of old and new saw are getting closer and closer. You can still find an occasional good deal, but saws from Daryl Weir, Bad Axe, and other sellers with a good rep are usually within $50.00 and often more expensive for the most desired saws, and buying from pictures for the inexperienced can be rather hit or miss. The saws may be better, I don't have the kind of experience to say on that point, but costs are quite close any more for those of us who have to use the internet.

I have noticed the same thing.

I certainly agree. On the other hand, unrestored Disstons can still be a bargain if you are patient and careful. Not two weeks ago, I picked up a WWII-era D8 for $15 + shipping ($22 total). No, the steel nuts/medallion don't look as good as brass, and the shaping on the beech handle leaves something to be desired. But the saw is dead straight, the blade has no pitting, and the teeth don't even need any serious reshaping--just sharpening. The handle can be reshaped to my hand in an hour. And I'll live with the ugly medallion.
I read a blog post by Matt Cianci claiming that the steel in the 40-s - 50's saws was the best that Disston ever produced. I have no way of knowing whether that's true. I will say that of the 6 Disstons I've refurbished (all made between 1900-1950), the steel has been good in all of them.



Every ancient saw is a rehab project that will never end.

I haven't found this to be true. If you are starting with a basket case, then yes. I think the key is to get something that is straight and doesn't need any real smithing. If all you need to do is polish it, sharpen it, and maybe reshape the handle, it's pretty quick (and fun) project.

I think some people over-complicate saws. It's a piece of sheet metal with teeth and a handle, for crying out loud. ;)

[Tony Wilkins]

So how would you guys rate a well restored vintage to the LN panel versus the LV Wenzloff versus a seaton Wenzloff panel? And just for fun how about throwing a Brontz (sorry for the spelling if its wrong) half back into the mix?

[Kees Heiden]

Just wondering, why don't they make full length saws, only 20" panel saws? I like my panelsaw (a non descript thing from the 50ies), but when I really need to cut a lot the 26" length is ideal especially with my longish arms.

The only manufacturer still making 26"saws seems to be Pax in England, the rest, also the modern plastic handled saws, are all a lot shorter.

[David Weaver]

If you need to do something inexpensively, learning to sand off rust and file teeth is the only way you'll probably get there. Of all of the old saws I ever bought, only one was ever sticky sharp when I got it, and it was underset, so even it would've tortured a beginner.

AS far as the halfbacks and such, for fine work crosscutting, I personally would rather have a longer saw with fine teeth for *anything* that's bigger than bench hook work, but not everyone agrees, I'm sure. I don't have pictures of all of my saws, but I found an old split nut S&J 26" 12 tpi saw on ebay about 5 years ago for $16, old enough to have a lamb's tongue and a stamped brand on it. The half backs are definitely pretty saws, but if they were necessary, there would be a lot of old ones around.

As far as the new makes, the amount of money you spend is in determining the finish level you demand. Wenzloff did cheap work for someone providing saws the level he did. The saws weren't inexpensive when you compare them to vintage saws, but for what time and effort he'd have in them to not have their visuals compromised, he worked for half price, and that couldn't have helped his situation. You see his big saws sometimes going now (the custom ones) for twice what he charged. Given he did all of the work, that money probably should've been collected by him.

If there is a big difference between LN and guys like Ron Bontz, it's in how much hand work is in the saw and how specific you can be about the filing.

But if you find an old saw like the vintage S&J i mentioned above, no new carpenter saw at any cost will outperform it if it is straight and filed the same way. You just have to be able to find a good subject and be able to do the work.

If you can't hammer saws, then that might mean going through a few until you get one that you like. That's a pain. There doesn't seem to be a free lunch until you can do the work yourself, and that's just a lunch paid for by your time.

[Tony Shea]

I agree in that the half backs are probably a saw that is more about looks than function. I personally would like to own one for the main reason being that I like the looks of them but I do think I could put the saw to good use. I think a panel saw such as LN or a half back saw would be a decent saw at the bench when your board is wide enough that a crosscut backsaw is inefficient. Granted the same process can be done down on a sawbench and with a regular sized saw but I personally feel more accurate on my bench on a hook. I often sling my full sized Simond's 12 point crosscut saw up on my bench hook to accurately crosscut larger panels where I want blowout at the backside to be very limited. But a full size saw can be a pain on my bench where I'm up against a wall and really wouldn't use the full length anyway. I personally just think that it would be a nice addition to my collection of user saws, even if it isn't called upon all that often. Oh, and did I mention the half back saws are pretty?

Having said all that, I do think you have a point David about the fact there are very few of them in the wild (vintage ones). There is obviously a good reason for it. Probably is not the most efficient saw to use in most situations and really isn't a good choice when sawing down on a sawbench. I certainly would be begging for more sawplate if using one down on a sawbench.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I don't discount what David says about the number of vintage ones in the wild presenting a comment on the usefulness of a tool, but I wonder as well what it also says about the size of various markets as well - given that something like a half-back saw, or a side rabbet plane is most likely the tool of a cabinet maker, whereas before useful cheap power tools became readily available, many if not most households would have some sort of panel saw or eggbeater drill, and crosscut saws were used by construction folks, their numbers would be somewhat over-represented. I wonder how the numbers of half-backs compare to other tools that might be solely the tool of "fine" woodworkers? How often do they show up in catalogs or something?

Like I said - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with David; I think I'm more thinking out loud - I'm just wondering how we best derive a useful metric for evaluating the usefulness of a tool via it's availability. Certainly, as David alludes, they can't have been *necessary*, given the numbers we see - and I feel like I've seen more than a few illustrations of folks doing things like cutting tenons with a panel saw where a more contemporary instruction would show the use of a backed saw. ( This one (http://www.roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/1939disstoncoverpage.jpg) is the first one I can think of off the top of my head) I've found more and more I like using a panel saw when I can.

[David Kuzdrall]

Interesting take on this from someone who seems to know his saws. I was going to look for a used dovetail saw, as I am getting ready to upgrade, but after using the Lie Nielson and the Bad Axe, I think I am just going to order a Lie Nielsen. The Bad Axe is a better saw, but not worth another hundred bucks IMHO. At least until I take the non Schwarz approach to things and find I need three dovetail saws...

you may actually need three dovetail saws. One being worked on / sharpened, one to use when the other one is being worked on / sharpened, and a big one for gang ripping tail boards.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I had Mike W. build me two half backs about 5 years ago or so - rip & crosscut. They are more looks than anything as I just don't find myself reaching for them! You get used to one or two saws for the style of work and wood you use, and they're you go to saws. Mine are a #16 Disston, 10pt. cc and a similar rip of about 7 pt. (doesn't get used much as bandsaw is easier on these old bones of mine).

Will never sell the half backs though!

[Lloyd Robins]

I find this thread very informative as I am about to buy a rip saw. I really want to keep it in my cabinet so I will probably get a panel saw for the work that I cannot do on my rather small bandsaw. At my age and energy I really don't want to spend the time fixing up saws (more than one) to get one that is good (ebay is about my only resource without a lot of travel.) I did try to refurbish one just recently, before I found out about the tensioning test. It doesn't seem to pass that test, time lost except for learning about rust removal. Also, I know what a really sharp backsaw cuts like, but not so much a standard saw. So that leaves me with ones from ebay (where there are a lot more xcut than rip saws) that a well rated vendor has worked on and is selling or a new one which means Lie-Nielsen or LV as the Pax saws seem to be of lower quality. (I have followed the threads and looked up the recommended sites on the internet. The restored No. 12's and No. 7's are often going for $300 or more, and the rip filed saws seem to disappear as soon as they are posted. I do like what David says about the actual prices being charged by the manufacturers like Wenzloff as they put in many hours for the return that they receive. Actually I guess that that makes their saws a pretty good value. Anyway sorry about the rambling reply, but it has helped me to think things through.

[Chris Vandiver]

I find this thread very informative as I am about to buy a rip saw. I really want to keep it in my cabinet so I will probably get a panel saw for the work that I cannot do on my rather small bandsaw. At my age and energy I really don't want to spend the time fixing up saws (more than one) to get one that is good (ebay is about my only resource without a lot of travel.) I did try to refurbish one just recently, before I found out about the tensioning test. It doesn't seem to pass that test, time lost except for learning about rust removal. Also, I know what a really sharp backsaw cuts like, but not so much a standard saw. So that leaves me with ones from ebay (where there are a lot more xcut than rip saws) that a well rated vendor has worked on and is selling or a new one which means Lie-Nielsen or LV as the Pax saws seem to be of lower quality. (I have followed the threads and looked up the recommended sites on the internet. The restored No. 12's and No. 7's are often going for $300 or more, and the rip filed saws seem to disappear as soon as they are posted. I do like what David says about the actual prices being charged by the manufacturers like Wenzloff as they put in many hours for the return that they receive. Actually I guess that that makes their saws a pretty good value. Anyway sorry about the rambling reply, but it has helped me to think things through.

Contact Mike Allen1010 here on the forum. The saws he refurbishes and sells are quite good and reasonably priced. He might have what you want and he's located in San Diego.

[Lloyd Robins]

Chris, thank you, I will contact him.

[Jim Matthews]

I think the key is to get something that is straight and doesn't need any real smithing. If all you need to do is polish it, sharpen it, and maybe reshape the handle, it's pretty quick (and fun) project.
I think some people over-complicate saws. It's a piece of sheet metal with teeth and a handle, for crying out loud. ;)

Right on. I'm live in Coastal Massachusetts, and most of the old saws I find appear to have been stored underground, as part of an ancient Mashpee Indian burial ceremony.
I'm suggesting that if you're buying an old backsaw (in particular) and haven't worked with one before, it's an expensive proposition to get one running properly.

Your first set of files, vise and proper set for the itty-bitty teeth (plus the necessary magnification and lighting) add up to more than buying a brand new saw.

There's a world of difference between getting a solid D-23 with 5 1/2 TPI filed rip up to speed and a 19th century tenon saw.
For one, I can see the teeth on a big 'un.

It's my belief that our Fathers abandoned handsaws and their hand tool brethern because no one knew how to get them sharp.

I say, if you're starting out with a saw - it makes sense to begin with one that cuts properly.
That way, when you know how it should handle - there's a standard for you to approach in "rolling your own".

I dunno what Ron Bontz does to get his saws ready, or how that compares to ancient methods.
I do know that they're ready to work, stay sharp and are oh-so pretty - right out of the box.

It's easy to become a tool-fixer instead of a tool user, and I walk that line every weekend.
http://seekonkfleamarket.com/

[Jim Matthews]

I have a half-back as made by our own Ron Bontz.

It's my go-to saw for nearly everything.
Something about the heft and handle, I suppose.

I won't be ripping any six-foot lengths of hard rock maple with one,
but for almost everything else - it's excellent.

I sold off a set of LN panel saws when this arrived,
and they aren't missed.

[george wilson]

It is likely hand saws were abandoned when power tools became popular. Our maintenance guys in the museum couldn't even sharpen their own saws. One guy showed me a saw that had been sent away for sharpening,but wouldn't cut. He couldn't see why. The saw had been jointed,but they forgot to sharpen it!! I don't know why otherwise competent people don't have eyes to see those flat spots on their saw teeth,but they don't.

I sharpened the saws we MADE,but not every other saw in the museum,or I'd never have gotten anything else done. The reason we sharpened our own saws was to keep others from screwing them up. A matter of preserving our own work.

[David Weaver]

What's the "tension test"?

Flexing the saw plate in both directions and checking that it ends up straight again afterwards?

[george wilson]

If you want a nearly mint #12 Disston,Patrick Leach has a #12 in CLOSE to mint (just a few pin head rust specs on a bright,clean,original blade) for only $650.00!! Still in the brown paper wrapper. He has some other similar condition Disstons,too. The #12 is more expensive.

[David Weaver]

Definitely, getting any saw from the noted saw restorers and sharpeners isn't going to be cheap, and the numbers are probably in line with what Mike W used to charge for a long saw. I never used any of Mike's long saws, though, but I remember that he was tapering at least some of his saws.

For reference in price, I got three full plate #12s, two are dark (as in, the plates are dark enough that you can barely see the etches on them, though you can see them enough to ensure that they are 12s), and I think the total take for all three was about $160 or $170? I had to sharpen all of them, of course. They are up a little bit in price since then.

Inexpensive saws come in old off-brand saws or at flea markets. I don't know of much else where they're cheaper. I thought they were a little cheaper at some of the larger tool auctions where you can buy them directly, but the last time I bid on saws I didn't come close to getting any of them, even though I bid at the high end of what would be reasonable for sight unseen saws.

[george wilson]

I turned down a NICE Disston at a flea market last year for $15.00. Just too tired to carry it back to my van. Regret that,but I have a bunch of saws already. It would have been one to fix top and sell.

[Lloyd Robins]

What's the "tension test"?

Flexing the saw plate in both directions and checking that it ends up straight again afterwards?

Yes, I guess that is the best way to put it. I noticed it here : http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/is-my-saw-worth-tuning-up.html

[Mike Holbrook]

I was fortunate enough to get a half back kit through Mike a year or two ago. I like the little saw I made, although I keep making little changes. Mine has the handle that sort of points up from the blade which sometimes better orients the saw for cutting things on a low bench.

Glad I checked this thread out and found Ron Bontz's saws, wow they are nice. I may have to order one of those. Maybe I could get him to make a saw for my Millers Falls/Langdon 74C miter box. The saw that came with my miter box is very big, heavy and not the greatest. I plan to use the miter box for the lions share of the hand sawing I will do in the future and I might as well have the best possible saw in it. If Ron's half backs cut half as good as they look I can certainly see how someone might replace their panel saws with one or two of those.

I have restored quite a few old tools. I find old hand saws to be relatively easy to restore if the plate is in decent shape. I have been afraid to try and straighten...saw plates even when the damage seems minor. At some point I will probably box up a few of my favorite saws, with issues I am afraid of, and send them off for professional help. Now that Lee Valley is manufacturing tools to joint and align files with, I think I will be able to sharpen my saws well enough to keep them in working order.

[Chris Hachet]

I have a half-back as made by our own Ron Bontz.

It's my go-to saw for nearly everything.
Something about the heft and handle, I suppose.

I won't be ripping any six-foot lengths of hard rock maple with one,
but for almost everything else - it's excellent.

I sold off a set of LN panel saws when this arrived,
and they aren't missed.
Looks like an interesting option. I am still learning to work with the saws I have, but your input is appreciated as I se myself buying more hand saws in the future.

[David Weaver]

I don't know that I've ever had a saw (out of maybe 3 or 4 dozen) that wouldn't go back to its current state after being flexed like that. If I had a saw that had improper tension, I'd at least take a shot at hammering it, but if it's a hardening issue, there's nothing you can do about it.

I've definitely had saws that I didn't think had enough tension, though. And the point about really old saws is a good one. The mid 1800s saws are much prettier than the 1890s saws, but they often have broken teeth and I just never buy saws with broken teeth anymore, because you can't know what the cause is for the broken teeth. Saws of that age are often not as evenly hardened, either.

George would have to describe the age hardening over time, my experience is often that some part of the older saws will be very hard and then another section will file like it's a bit soft. My favorite spear &jackson crosscut saw (probably late 1800s) is like that, it's got a section of hard teeth near the toe that can be pretty hard on files. The same timeframe is true for straight razors - somewhere around the 1890s or so the process for hardening the razors must've gotten straightened out because the razors older than that can be kind of iffy and they were left in a thick grind to compensate it. I'm sure the innovation in hardening saws is a significantly different process, though, and the timing similarity might be a coincidence. For razors, it probably had to do with heating in molten lead instead of open atmosphere.

[Augusto Orosco]

Chris, thank you, I will contact him.

I have three saws from Mike; A rip (26"), a xcut (26") and a panel xcut. The three are outstanding (and my panel has become my favorite go to saw), and Mike's a very nice guy to deal with.

[Tony Wilkins]

Lots of good information on this. I think after I send off my Disston thumbhole rip saw to be sharpened I'll be set. I'm glad I have my Wenzloff panel rip; it's a lot better size for me to do vertical rips like I'm doing for the short legs for the table I'm working on. Now I can feed my Bad Axe addiction ;)

[Steve Voigt]

Hi Jim,


Right on. I'm live in Coastal Massachusetts, and most of the old saws I find appear to have been stored underground, as part of an ancient Mashpee Indian burial ceremony.


OK, that's hilarious. But seriously, yeah, I can see how the salty air there would make the rust problem much worse.



I'm suggesting that if you're buying an old backsaw (in particular) and haven't worked with one before, it's an expensive proposition to get one running properly.

Your first set of files, vise and proper set for the itty-bitty teeth (plus the necessary magnification and lighting) add up to more than buying a brand new saw.



I gotta disagree with you here.
Files: To restore a saw I need 1 file (plus a mill file for jointing, but I imagine most people already have one). If you need more, see previous comment about not buying basket cases. Sure, it makes sense to buy more if you're paying for shipping, but the cost of multiple files is surely amortized over several projects.
Vise: My saw vise cost $3--the price of 2 narrow utility hinges from the borg. Mine's fancy ;) -- scrap baltic birch ply and soft maple jaws (what I had lying around). But it could be cdx and pine scrap, and would work almost as well. If you have some scrap leather, you can use that instead of hinges. If it's good enough for Tom Lie-Nielsen, it's good enough for me.
Saw set: You can get a perfectly serviceable saw set on the big auction site for single digits, shipped, certainly under $15 at the most, as long as you're not hung up on having to have a 42x. [Side rant: why do people who've never used a saw set insist that they must have a 42x? It wasn't even produced until about 1930, when the hand saw industry was already practically on death row. Yet somehow, people made it through the golden age of saws using all those other sets.] I've got a disston triumph 280, a triumph 28, and a taintor's positive no. 7. Didn't pay more than $12 shipped for any of them. The 28 is a dud, but the others work great.
Magnification and lighting: I feel like a good lamp and a cheap 10x loupe or visor is enough. And this stuff is useful for all kinds of other shop tasks.
More importantly, if one is going to sharpen one's own saws, all this equipment is necessary anyway, right? And if one insists one sending saws out for sharpening, it will cost a fortune, not to mention all the lost shop time.



There's a world of difference between getting a solid D-23 with 5 1/2 TPI filed rip up to speed and a 19th century tenon saw.
For one, I can see the teeth on a big 'un.


Amen. I'm always glad that I started with rip and crosscut saws.




It's easy to become a tool-fixer instead of a tool user, and I walk that line every weekend.
http://seekonkfleamarket.com/

You're right of course; I probably spend far too much time fixing.
Your flea market link makes me jealous; I wish there were places to buy old tools here besides the evil auction site.

--Steve

[Tony Wilkins]

I'm open to working on my own saws. I don't think either of my Disston D8's are far from being very nice. Medallions are visible of both and I thought they were sharp before trying the Wenzloff. I have no tools to work on it however (including a mill file). So what would I need and how much would it cost?

Also, they both have black spots on them, should I try to give a go them with rubberized abrasive or leave well enough alone?

[David Weaver]

wet and dry sandpaper around 400 grit to start. You can just use your fingers on it and go by feel, just don't use it heavily around the etch. For a while, I used W/D paper (my saws are usually not quite in good enough shape to just use the aluminum foil trick described here) on a hard block because it was suggested to preserve the etch, but if you get enough swarf going, that'll ruin the etch, anyway, it's better to just tread lightly around the etch no matter what. I always wore out paper too fast doing that, too, so I just use W&D with finger pressure now if I have to use it and follow up with autosol (any metal polish would be fine, and even if you don't want to use it, that's fine, too. A saw will cut just great with a 220 grit w/D finish, the other stuff is for looks).

Anyway, you need a mill file, a saw set, two sprung boards (to use as a saw vise), and appropriate saw files. And willingness to take your time and learn via correction of what's not working right. Trust your hands and eyes. Consider a good 42x sawset as money in suspense, spend the money for it, if you change your mind later, you can get all of your money back no problem, and if you don't, you'll be glad you bought it because it's a cakewalk to use. saw files should be somewhere around $6 per, unless your tooth profile allows you to shop at home depot and just work with nichoson mexicos while you decide exactly what you'll do.

Figure $50 give or take for a 42x, $8-$10 for a mill file, $20 for a few saw files and a decent handle (skrooz-on handles are great) and a few bucks for wet and dry. I don't like rubberized abrasive on saws, by the way. I've got several types of it, but I just don't like it for that. A razor blade or a junk chisel with the corners rounded on it makes for a nice rust remover before sanding, if your black spots are texture-like rust spots.

[Jim Matthews]

Your flea market link makes me jealous; I wish there were places to buy old tools here besides the evil auction site.--Steve

Careful what you wish for.
I've got a 13 gallon garbage can full of serviceable "someday" saws.

I found a $5 unidentifiable 11 tpi, 26" long dark as a January night saw at a local antique store.
It felt like good steel (not that I can say why) and it turned out to be a Disston 12 underneath all the grime.

The problem is that once it's up an running, I've got to get rid of something else - my saw till is full.
The option is to make a larger saw till - but I detest making shop only gadgets when my furniture and cabinetry backlog has grown.

It's the only good thing about living amongst Massholes - they're almost wholly ignorant of how important local industry once was.

$5 for a full length Disston 12.
I should stop now,
but won't.

PS - My tally for tools and files is based on retail purchases. I've had poor luck with auction items that weren't usable.
I like the stuff Joel sells at TFWW, but he's not exactly cheap.

[Pedro Reyes]

Lots of good information on this. I think after I send off my Disston thumbhole rip saw to be sharpened I'll be set. I'm glad I have my Wenzloff panel rip; it's a lot better size for me to do vertical rips like I'm doing for the short legs for the table I'm working on. Now I can feed my Bad Axe addiction ;)

Where do you send them if I may ask?

[Tony Wilkins]

Haven't sent one off yet but to Mike Harrell up at Bad Axe.