Are Chisel Prices About to Plummet?

[Jim Koepke]

Often when Chris Schwarz mentions a fondness for a tool, everyone wants to get one and the prices on ebay seem to escalate.

In a recent writing on his Popular Woodworking blog he mentions getting rid of all his chisels but a few. (The Theory of Chisel Monogamy)

Could it follow that we will be seeing a multitude of chisels soon on ebay from all of his readers emulating his ways?

jtk

[Christian Castillo]

Here's hoping that happens, Jim.

[Sean Hughto]

His piece is sort of silly, for the most part. Even high end chisels are not all that expensive (relative to other woodworking tools and machines) and no chisel is very big (such that eliminating from your chest frees up much space). His post may be useful to the frugal beginner who wants to know whether to buy one or two to start or a set of 6. Other than that, any woodworker who does any variety of work will appreciate having a reasonable set, even if they tend to use one particular size for the majority of operations.

I love chisels. Vintage ones are cheap and excellent. LN sockets are great too as are Blue Spuce's offerings and on and on. Making do is certainly possible, but why would someone who enjoys tools and woodworking deny oneself the pleasures of a variety?

[dan sherman]

I'm a big supporter of Chris's but that post is going to misguide a bunch of people If they take it at face value. Some times I think Chris gets a little carried away, because he loves woodworking and blogging, and i think posts is one of those cases. I think he should have been a little more verbose in saying don't buy more chisels than you need, rather than saying you only need one or two.

O and no way chisel prices are going to fall, the world is still full of collectors looking for wall decorations. :D

[Jim Koepke]

LN sockets are great too as are Blue Spuce's offerings and on and on.

Wish I could afford a set of each and then some.


O and no way chisel prices are going to fall, the world is still full of collectors looking for wall decorations.

My thought on that is to have sharp ones hanging around for protection against carnivorous animal attacks, the zombie apocalypse or other unwanted intruders.

jtk

[Sam Takeuchi]

I'm a big supporter of Chris's but that post is going to misguide a bunch of people If they take it at face value. Some times I think Chris gets a little carried away, because he loves woodworking and blogging, and i think posts is one of those cases. I think he should have been a little more verbose in saying don't buy more chisels than you need, rather than saying you only need one or two.


I don't see why it's Chris Schwarz who has to watch what he writes. It's more of a problem for the people who doesn't examine the information critically, isn't it? Just like anything else, no one should be blindly following someone else's thoughts and ideas. It's actually bizarre that some people are copying thoughts and trying to behave like someone else without question. That is truly bizarre.

[dan sherman]

I don't see why it's Chris Schwarz who has to watch what he writes. It's more of a problem for the people who doesn't examine the information critically, isn't it? Just like anything else, no one should be blindly following someone else's thoughts and ideas. It's actually bizarre that some people are copying thoughts and trying to behave like someone else without question. That is truly bizarre.

It's not a popular view, but that average human isn't very smart. People will almost blindly believe information given to them by the press, authoritative or well known individuals. Chris is all of these, and writing/teaching is his lively hood. Thus it is in his own best interests to be very mindful of what he writes. It's sad that it has to be that way, but its true for anyone who lives a public life.

[Sam Takeuchi]

See that's the weird thing. I think someone in the position to teach should be ahead, not lowering standards to accommodate the mass, to 'elevate' from the present position. If anything, this one chisel idea of his should have stirred readers' idea about chisels and tools as a whole, to re-think how to approach and use a tool. Outcome of that thought process and what readers concluded is irrelevant as long as they have a conclusion of their own. If readers or "students" can't get much out of a teacher other than to copy, then I think he's a wrong teacher for them. That's what magazines did, isn't it? They basically lowered standards for the mass, ended up as 80 pages of advertisements and product shoot out with products from sponsors, 2 page of letter of editor and 2 pages of something technical that has been written about about 3 times in the past 12 month. And people bemoan the quality and leave subscription to expire. I think same thing can happen to the ones in teaching position too.

[David Weaver]

What do professional woodworkers do? What do they use?

[Jim Koepke]

What do professional woodworkers do? What do they use?

I couldn't tell you about a professional woodworker. For me though, sometimes my work is on a fence post, sometimes on a stump that is being turned into a place to sit along the back trail.

A 1/4" chisel may be fine for dovetails, but my 1-1/4" chisel is faster at making waste of a lap joint on a 2X4.

My 2" chisel and big gouges are better for shaping a tree stump than any 1" chisel.

Framing a chicken coop is not a job for my good chisels nor is cutting dovetails a job for my Everlasting Stanley and friends.

Yes, there are some overlaps but so what?

jtk

[Wade Holloway]

It's not a popular view, but that average human isn't very smart. People will almost blindly believe information given to them by the press, authoritative or well known individuals.

So true, so true, that is why we have actors telling who did not even graduate high school telling us about things like global warming and who we need to vote for president.

[David Weaver]

I couldn't tell you about a professional woodworker.
jtk

Yeah, I'm no professional woodworker, either. I guess sometimes we disregard what they do because it's fun and it feels good to indulge yourself. That's my excuse for the stones, and I guess a lot of chisels.

I sure do wish I could absorb some design ability off of the professionals, though. Even just some basic sense so that I don't build something and then say "ew...not right".

[David Weaver]

So true, so true, that is why we have actors telling who did not even graduate high school telling us about things like global warming and who we need to vote for president.

I don't even like it when they tell us which movies we're supposed to find entertaining.

I recall Tina Fey going on a tirade a while ago (and I don't really have any opinion on her other than to remember her fit, because I don't watch anything she's in) saying that despite the fact that other shows got much better ratings, her show was still much better than all of the shows that beat them, and had better writers and better content and that she was frustrated with viewers because they didn't realize it. I.e., "it's my show and I like it better and I think it's smarter and you should, too". I'll bet a lot of viewers didn't know that they were supposed to ask someone else what they should like and why.

Not that it has anything to do with this topic.

I do maintain (acting aside), that if we're ever questioning what we should do in our shops and we have some ends in mind, we can probably make up our own minds. If we're looking for the best quality of advice becasue we don't have an idea which direction we're going, there is a lot of literature floating around written by professional woodworkers that would have us worrying about elements that affect our work products (selection of wood, tying together design elements, marking accurately, etc) vs. things that don't (what brand of planes we buy, how many chisels we're using and ...look the other way....what sharpening setup we're using).

There is a whole group of us who have picked up hand tools because we saw something online, or because we found some hand tools and then searched online to try to figure out how to use them. Much of that group relies on beginners classes and blogs for information, and that's fine at the outset, but there are also a lot of the same folks who have read mostly or only blogs and some brief magazine articles and who have read little that was written pre-internet by contemporary professionals or professionals not contemporary. It's like spending years training for a sport by eating scoops of sugar. There are not many discussions on here about stuff like "what's a good book for ...." or "what's a good source for ....". Inevitably, we'd turn toward a lot more older more static things to fill our mind with if we got there.

[Chris Hachet]

I couldn't tell you about a professional woodworker. For me though, sometimes my work is on a fence post, sometimes on a stump that is being turned into a place to sit along the back trail.

A 1/4" chisel may be fine for dovetails, but my 1-1/4" chisel is faster at making waste of a lap joint on a 2X4.

My 2" chisel and big gouges are better for shaping a tree stump than any 1" chisel.

Framing a chicken coop is not a job for my good chisels nor is cutting dovetails a job for my Everlasting Stanley and friends.

Yes, there are some overlaps but so what?

jtk


Right now, I am in the process of trying to complete at least 4 sets! I have a complete set of Miefer Spanish chisels that I have used for the last twenty five years, I am completing my set of Lie Nielson socket chisels, I am buying a set of Irwin blue handled cheap chisels just as back ups and for my nastier work, I am completing a set of buck brothers chisels for my really nasty work (I am pulling up carpet tack in my family room with my 2" Buck brothers chisel right now) and I just bought my first Japanese Chisel, and many more Japanese chisels will follow. I have more than 15 chisels and more than 15 Planes....amazingly, I find myself using almost all of them on a fairly regular basis. In my garage I have almost 30 different saws, for cutting everything from dovetails to PVC pipe to tree limbs....and I use almost all of them on a regular basis. It's a good thing I'm not one of those people that crave food the way that I crave tools....I'd weigh 400 lbs!

[Chris Hachet]

I don't even like it when they tell us which movies we're supposed to find entertaining.

I recall Tina Fey going on a tirade a while ago (and I don't really have any opinion on her other than to remember her fit, because I don't watch anything she's in) saying that despite the fact that other shows got much better ratings, her show was still much better than all of the shows that beat them, and had better writers and better content and that she was frustrated with viewers because they didn't realize it. I.e., "it's my show and I like it better and I think it's smarter and you should, too". I'll bet a lot of viewers didn't know that they were supposed to ask someone else what they should like and why.

Not that it has anything to do with this topic.

I do maintain (acting aside), that if we're ever questioning what we should do in our shops and we have some ends in mind, we can probably make up our own minds. If we're looking for the best quality of advice becasue we don't have an idea which direction we're going, there is a lot of literature floating around written by professional woodworkers that would have us worrying about elements that affect our work products (selection of wood, tying together design elements, marking accurately, etc) vs. things that don't (what brand of planes we buy, how many chisels we're using and ...look the other way....what sharpening setup we're using).

Pretty much people would rather argue on the internet than walk into the wood shop and get something done. Personally, I have gotten more out of a commitment to myself that I would try to spend an hour a day working on my woodworking in my shop than almost any internet debate....

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

. . . (I am pulling up carpet tack in my family room with my 2" Buck brothers chisel right now)

Chris, you type amazingly well with one hand!

[dan sherman]

There is a whole group of us who have picked up hand tools because we saw something online, or because we found some hand tools and then searched online to try to figure out how to use them. Much of that group relies on beginners classes and blogs for information, and that's fine at the outset, but there are also a lot of the same folks who have read mostly or only blogs and some brief magazine articles and who have read little that was written pre-internet by contemporary professionals or professionals not contemporary. It's like spending years training for a sport by eating scoops of sugar. There are not many discussions on here about stuff like "what's a good book for ...." or "what's a good source for ....". Inevitably, we'd turn toward a lot more older more static things to fill our mind with if we got there.


I'm a hybrid woodworker and I picked up hand tools, because simply put they are the best way of accomplishing certain tasks. For example I find that when I make small boxes;
cutting miter keys to size is a little slower but much safer with a hand saw and a bench hook, than a table saw. Thus to me, everything is a trade off, of speed vs. safety, vs quality of finished work, vs. cost.

It's the same thing with chisels. I use Narex's for paring and sweetheart socket chisels for general bench work. They are complete sets, and I spent less than 300$ on all of them. Yes some of them get used more often than others, but they all get used, because I pick the best one for a the tasks at hand. Yes i could probably get by with just 3 or 4, but I would have to work around some problems then, rather than just get them done.

[Chris Griggs]

I just figured out the Schwarz's scheme. He is deliberately trying to get all his followers to sell off their nice tools at low prices so he can snap them up and resell them at an inflated figure...No doubt, once he amasses the majority he will change his mind and recommend them as essential tools in order to inflate demand and command exorbitant prices. I'm almost certain that he and Jim Bode are in cahoots on this.

[george wilson]

I have about 350 chisels and carving tools and no intention of selling them off because I'm a tool pig.

[David Weaver]

George, I don't think I've ever seen you put it into a number. I'll bet I don't have more than 75.

I haven't done 75/350 of the quantity or quality of work you've done, though.

[Mike Brady]

A couple of thoughts on Mr. Schwarz:

Tool makers must be generally p.o.'d at him since he first put forth this notion of deliberately limiting tool collection in his Anarchist's Tool Chest. Chris made a lot of tool makers what they are today via his former blog. Now he seems to reverse course by telling anyone who reads his current blogs to dispose of all but a certain selection of tools, even if he touted them to the same readers months or years before. That smacks of manipulation in my way of thinking. All of this is just his personal opinion, of course, but he shares that opinion enthusiastically with as many readers as he can coax out of the cost of a book.

Is CS a good guy and someone we owe much gratitude for beating the drum of hand tool use? Yes, certainly. Is he having his way with some of his fanboys? Yes, also. Those who have commented previously regarding just making up your own mind and not bowing to the moods or whims of others seem to be on the right track.

I attended the HandWorks tool show that was recently held in Amana, Iowa. CS was offering a little (tiny, in person) brass caliper for sale in limited quantities. It was funny to me to watch grown men rush to cue up for a chance to own one of these, even though it could not possible qualify for a rightful place in any real anarchist's tool chest. I thought it spoke volumes in contradiction to the "less is more" theme that Chris currently espouses. Fortunately there was much more to see and hear there, and I hope will be an annual event.

.

[Jim Koepke]

despite the fact that other shows got much better ratings

I am not sure if I have seen more than a minute of the program in questioin, but appealing to the masses is not always a good indicator of what is or isn't a great anything.


Chris made a lot of tool makers what they are today via his former blog. Now he seems to reverse course by telling anyone who reads his current blogs to dispose of all but a certain selection tools, even if he touted them to the same readers months or years before.

Moving from one shop to another can do that to a person.

His tool chest looks like a great solution for some. It would never work for me. So much bending over to reach for tools all day would kill my back. A few years ago a holder for my squares was proudly posted here.

266108

It worked for awhile, but then a different arrangement seemed better.

Time and experience changes things.

It would not surprise me to see Mr. Schwarz change his mind again.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I have about 350 chisels and carving tools and no intention of selling them off because I'm a tool pig.

How many of these are prototypes of your own design?
I don't suppose 350 is really so many - if you've been around since they invented steel...;)

*****

I think there's another issue here, entirely.
We're putting a good deal too much emphasis on the musings of a writer who has never worked as a cabinet maker.

I take the input of Big Dogs like George Wilson, Adam Cherubini, Bob Rozaieski (who wins the period furniture contest by having the most vowels) Derek Cohen and David Charlesworth
more seriously than the entertaining submissions of the magazine press. The monthlies need to publish something.

If the idea is to have the minimum required tooling that must be carried, this approach makes sense.

Realistically, we pay so little for a good chisel and invest more time in getting them ready for use than can be recouped at resale.
Why get rid of something that you're "upside down" owning, when it takes up little space?

Someday, when the George Wilson museum finally opens, we'll be glad you held onto so much - and it will no doubt make entertaining reading.

[Jim Matthews]

I recall Tina Fey going on a tirade a while ago ... saying that despite the fact that other shows got much better ratings, her show had better writers and better content and that she was frustrated with viewers because they didn't realize it.

I think she was lamenting that they employ actual writers, and attempt to do something new, and knowing with each episode.
Reality TV, singing contests and all the other staged "competitions" with audience participation pummel well-written TV.

Compare this to the frustration of beginning furniture makers that lose sales to Ikea.

She's right - the fortunes of the Kardashians and the Jersey Shore mooks fly in the face of talented people.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

His tool chest looks like a great solution for some. It would never work for me. So much bending over to reach for tools all day would kill my back.

While I haven't used a tool chest of that ilk, there were some not too dissimilar repetitive bending over tasks at work that killed my back at the end of a 12 hour shift. (I'm not old by any stretch, but have some back problems) Before things were re-jiggered into a more ergonomic fashion, what made things work for me was bracing my hand on something nearby (in the tool-chest case, I assume this would be the sides of the chest, but I could be off) and then keeping my back straight, and lifting my "off" leg. I hope that makes sense. By lifting my one leg and bracing myself with my free hand, all the bending occurs at my hips, not at my back. More ideal when picking something up would be bending at the knees, of course, but the shape of a chest (or the weird sort of cubby-shape I had to remove things from at work) keeps this from working. As long as the object you're retrieving is light enough you can easily remove it easily with one hand, this at least helped for me.

Not trying to push a tool chest onto anyone, nor justify it, just thought I'd mention it. For whatever reason this had really never occurred to me. There have been a couple of times where I've pulled something enough that bending over is no fun, and this method has made picking up some keys or something I dropped (if they're close enough to something I can brace myself against - otherwise it's a balancing act) a lot easier. Of course, this ends up playing on your balance and a totally different set of muscles so it might not work for everyone.

[Steve Voigt]

Personally, I believe in chisel polygamy. That is, putting together a full set (however you want to define that), but not worrying if they're from different makers. A lot of late 19th/ early 20th C. beveled socket chisels look pretty much the same, whether they're Bucks, Swans, Witherbys, Unions, whatever. Even on ebay, you can still do this for about $20 per chisel, if you shop carefully. Perhaps they're not as good as LNs, LVs, etc., but the ones I've bought have been a huge improvement over the blue-handled Marples that have been a millstone around my neck these last 15 years.

For the record, I do not practice any non-tool forms of polygamy. :D

[Chris Fournier]

Key strokes are cheap. There are real consequences to spending your money on tools.

I have said it before, journalists will tell you what they want to and hope that you will stay along for the ride. Press pays.

CS is messing with you counting on you being suggestable as he spills ink. Be logical and rational, does what he says make sense and has he maintained a logical position?

I don't think so and won't be buying or selling based on his rhetorical whims.

[Jack Curtis]

A couple of thoughts on Mr. Schwarz:

Tool makers must be generally p.o.'d at him since he first put forth this notion of deliberately limiting tool collection in his Anarchist's Tool Chest....

Well, anyone who advocates building tool chests must also advocate a limited set of tools. It's a given, a qualification. So why is anyone surprised? Or why does anyone who doesn't want a tool chest paying attention?

[Jack Curtis]

I am not sure if I have seen more than a minute of the program in questioin, but appealing to the masses is not always a good indicator of what is or isn't a great anything....

That's for sure. My rule? If it has a laugh track I change the channel immediately. I happen to really enjoy Tina Fey, especially her Palin impersonation. She and Amy Poehler (as Hillary) are both great, but I do like Parks & Rec more, it's funnier.

[Sam Takeuchi]

...appealing to the masses is not always a good indicator of what is or isn't a great anything.

Are you saying Honeybooboo isn't great? :o

[David Barnett]

Are you saying Honeybooboo isn't great? :o

Zing! Nothin' but net!

[Jim Matthews]

Well, anyone who advocates building tool chests must also advocate a limited set of tools. It's a given, a qualification.

Well, if you can bang another together in two days - the problem is elastic, up to the volume of the space holding them.
I hate tool chests - they become the default storage surface and the contents remain un-needed, until the surface is completely covered.

I also think the emphasis on making shop gizmos is a misdirection. With only so many shop hours available each week, I want to make stuff to use outside the shop.

The essential problem is in getting good copy from qualified makers. Writers write well, but don't necessarily have pertinent experience.
Makers build well, but don't necessarily get the salient points across. In my opinion, the problem is that there's too much bandwidth;

lots of column inches to fill, only so much to say - every month.

I believe that the "less is more" approach may be appropriate - for the publishers.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I believe that the "less is more" approach may be appropriate - for the publishers.

I follow the Schwarz blog which I receive every day but if I read one or two a month it's a lot. Why do some bloggers and tweeters insist on posting something every single day, no matter what?

If Chris posted once a week, the email would catch my attention but not daily. The pressure to write about something unique every day must be hectic.

I also hate following someone's project where every detail is shared on an hourly basis. I really don't want to see the pictures of you about to make the cut, during the cut, after the cut, you admiring the cut and then a couple of your shop dog looking particularly bored.

Less is more.

[Jason Garland]

I think some of us are overreacting a bit. First of all, it's a blog post, not a manifesto. Second, it's a blog post by a guy who has laid hands on a lot of tools over the years and pretty much went from a heavily power tool oriented shop to a hand tools only approach over the course of the last decade which naturally entails cutting back -- and that's significant for someone like Schwarz who is quite obviously a tool junkie.

Now I just read the blog post and I certainly didn't get the impression that there was some sort of conspiracy or misdirection going on. It just sounded to me like a guy who loves tools talking about how he works and his opinions about said tools. Not unlike what a lot of other folks are doing in this thread right now.

What I love about Chris's advice is that he makes woodworking doable for newbs who really want to work wood but are concerned about spending thousands of dollars on tools they don't even know how to use yet. As a newb myself, I appreciate that kind of thinking. With each successive project I've found the need to add a tool or two to get the job done. But that was a discovery based on need, not salesmanship, and I discovered that on my own, not because it was touted to me. And in many way I have Chris's advice (through his blog and a DVD or two) to thank for that.

For those of you who aren't newbs here, and I think that's probably most of the people in this thread, then you're probably going to have a hard time appreciating that. The fact is is that when you first come to woodworking and you really want to do it, you almost have to depend on the opinion and guidance of people like Chris Schwarz to help educate you and get you started. I can think for myself, certainly, but it certainly is extremely helpful to have some guidance from a guy who 1) loves what he does, 2) does it well, 3) is pretty darn honest and isn't just trying to sell you a bunch of stuff you may not really need. On top of that, his recommendations are always rock solid. Think about how many crappy tools there are out there. Just the other day I was reading a thread here that some of you participated in regarding finding decent, affordable saw files. Wow, who knew it was such a problem? I certainly didn't because I've never sharpened a saw in my life -- but I'm sure I will be soon, and that thread was a great wealth of advice on finding good files to do the job. Likewise, Chris's advice, when I've taken it, has never disappointed me.

I was also at Handworks and met Chris there and he seemed to me incredibly genuine and obviously passionate about woodworking -- as was everybody at that event. That's one of the great things about the hobby. It's full of people who love it, and he's just another one of those people. And one of the interesting things about those people is that they love tools. (Do you recall Don Williams going on and on for 10 minutes about an early bench vise he was researching -- the dude totally geeked out). I wasn't there early enough to see the calipers, but I did see a picture of them and didn't get the impression they were intended to be something you would actually use daily - more like a collectible. For tool junkies, I can see the attraction. So saying that he espouses a minimalist tool set and then sells tools, thereby somehow flying in the face of said espousal seem rather misguided to me.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but rather provide a bit of a different perspective. I'm probably never in my life going to own 350 chisels or whatever, because honestly I'm just not that into it. But I did buy a full set of Narex bench and mortise chisels to get me started, and I certainly don't regret it. That said, of those two full sets I've only so far had need to use 4 of them :)



A couple of thoughts on Mr. Schwarz:

Tool makers must be generally p.o.'d at him since he first put forth this notion of deliberately limiting tool collection in his Anarchist's Tool Chest. Chris made a lot of tool makers what they are today via his former blog. Now he seems to reverse course by telling anyone who reads his current blogs to dispose of all but a certain selection of tools, even if he touted them to the same readers months or years before. That smacks of manipulation in my way of thinking. All of this is just his personal opinion, of course, but he shares that opinion enthusiastically with as many readers as he can coax out of the cost of a book.

Is CS a good guy and someone we owe much gratitude for beating the drum of hand tool use? Yes, certainly. Is he having his way with some of his fanboys? Yes, also. Those who have commented previously regarding just making up your own mind and not bowing to the moods or whims of others seem to be on the right track.

I attended the HandWorks tool show that was recently held in Amana, Iowa. CS was offering a little (tiny, in person) brass caliper for sale in limited quantities. It was funny to me to watch grown men rush to cue up for a chance to own one of these, even though it could not possible qualify for a rightful place in any real anarchist's tool chest. I thought it spoke volumes in contradiction to the "less is more" theme that Chris currently espouses. Fortunately there was much more to see and hear there, and I hope will be an annual event.

.

[Chris Hachet]

Now I just read the blog post and I certainly didn't get the impression that there was some sort of conspiracy or misdirection going on. It just sounded to me like a guy who loves tools talking about how he works and his opinions about said tools. Not unlike what a lot of other folks are doing in this thread right now.

What I love about Chris's advice is that he makes woodworking doable for newbs who really want to work wood but are concerned about spending thousands of dollars on tools they don't even know how to use yet. As a newb myself, I appreciate that kind of thinking. With each successive project I've found the need to add a tool or two to get the job done. But that was a discovery based on need, not salesmanship, and I discovered that on my own, not because it was touted to me. And in many way I have Chris's advice (through his blog and a DVD or two) to thank for that.

...I did buy a full set of Narex bench and mortise chisels to get me started, and I certainly don't regret it. That said, of those two full sets I've only so far had need to use 4 of them :)For someone like me who just wants to build nice furniture for his family and doesn't view woodworking as a do all or end all in life, a lot of his advice is very helpful. Being able to use a Stanly #5 Jack plane that I bought twenty years ago for $15 to joint the edges of boards rather than going out and spending a grand on a jointer really speeds the process along. And it's much nicer to listen to the radio while I work rather than figure out how I am going to buy and find a place for a $1200 Dust collector to go with the $1000 (corded-tailed) jointer. Now if I could come up with a grand a buy a nice infill jointer plane, my mind might change....

[Chris Griggs]

I think some of us are overreacting a bit. First of all, it's a blog post, not a manifesto. Second, it's a blog post by a guy who has laid hands on a lot of tools over the years and pretty much went from a heavily power tool oriented shop to a hand tools only approach over the course of the last decade which naturally entails cutting back -- and that's significant for someone like Schwarz who is quite obviously a tool junkie.

Now I just read the blog post and I certainly didn't get the impression that there was some sort of conspiracy or misdirection going on. It just sounded to me like a guy who loves tools talking about how he works and his opinions about said tools. Not unlike what a lot of other folks are doing in this thread right now.

What I love about Chris's advice is that he makes woodworking doable for newbs who really want to work wood but are concerned about spending thousands of dollars on tools they don't even know how to use yet. As a newb myself, I appreciate that kind of thinking. With each successive project I've found the need to add a tool or two to get the job done. But that was a discovery based on need, not salesmanship, and I discovered that on my own, not because it was touted to me. And in many way I have Chris's advice (through his blog and a DVD or two) to thank for that.

For those of you who aren't newbs here, and I think that's probably most of the people in this thread, then you're probably going to have a hard time appreciating that. The fact is is that when you first come to woodworking and you really want to do it, you almost have to depend on the opinion and guidance of people like Chris Schwarz to help educate you and get you started. I can think for myself, certainly, but it certainly is extremely helpful to have some guidance from a guy who 1) loves what he does, 2) does it well, 3) is pretty darn honest and isn't just trying to sell you a bunch of stuff you may not really need. On top of that, his recommendations are always rock solid. Think about how many crappy tools there are out there. Just the other day I was reading a thread here that some of you participated in regarding finding decent, affordable saw files. Wow, who knew it was such a problem? I certainly didn't because I've never sharpened a saw in my life -- but I'm sure I will be soon, and that thread was a great wealth of advice on finding good files to do the job. Likewise, Chris's advice, when I've taken it, has never disappointed me.

I was also at Handworks and met Chris there and he seemed to me incredibly genuine and obviously passionate about woodworking -- as was everybody at that event. That's one of the great things about the hobby. It's full of people who love it, and he's just another one of those people. And one of the interesting things about those people is that they love tools. (Do you recall Don Williams going on and on for 10 minutes about an early bench vise he was researching -- the dude totally geeked out). I wasn't there early enough to see the calipers, but I did see a picture of them and didn't get the impression they were intended to be something you would actually use daily - more like a collectible. For tool junkies, I can see the attraction. So saying that he espouses a minimalist tool set and then sells tools, thereby somehow flying in the face of said espousal seem rather misguided to me.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but rather provide a bit of a different perspective. I'm probably never in my life going to own 350 chisels or whatever, because honestly I'm just not that into it. But I did buy a full set of Narex bench and mortise chisels to get me started, and I certainly don't regret it. That said, of those two full sets I've only so far had need to use 4 of them :)

I completely agree with you (hopefully my "Jim Bode" conspiracy came across as obviously being tongue-in-cheek). I found his advice very valuable when I was first starting out. Sure there are going to folks who follow everything he says blindly without trying for themselves to see what works best for them, but I certainly have no issue taking the things I like and leaving behind what I don't. I think of CS as a professional/expert hobbyist and that's how I take the things he writes about. Its not the same as the way I would take something George says which I usually think of as "the right" way to do something, more along the lines of "given that I'm a hobbyist, on a budget, in a small shop, that's less equipped than I want, is there a way X recommendation from CS can benefit me". I don't really read his blog much anymore (he does mostly write for total beginners and one does tend to "outgrow" a lot of his writing as one forms their own preferences), and I'm not about to start selling off my chisels, but I still like CS. He's a hobbyist giving advice to other hobbyists, about what works and what doesn't, and whats a good value, especially when you are new to the hobby, and if one takes that for what it is its quite valuable. He gives, if nothing else, information pertaining to a good place to start. Yes, he makes a living at it, so what. That doesn't automatically mean its all garbage. Sure, there are some things he writes about that seem sorta pointless, he clearly also a bit of a researcher/experimenter at heart, and it seems to me that he just kinda writes about what his interest is at the time and gives his current views. I can think of many worse ways to make a living, and its not like I'm required to read his blog or buy his books.

Every few months someone will post a question about a somewhat out there suggestion of his and then it turns into a big long debate.

I'll just save everyone time and link to the thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?199178-Toothing-your-bench) where this was discussed last time (that one was a doozy). Now we can all just go to that thread find a post that best fits our feelings about CS and then just copy and paste it into this thread. :) Much more convenient this way.

[george wilson]

I caution all about selling your tools. In the future,if you find yourself wanting them back,you'll find yourself paying a lot more for them. I recall being able to buy nice chisels and carving tools for $2.50 each. Now,I see indifferent ones foe $30.00 or more each. What will they run in the future?

The way I got some of my carving tools was purely by luck. This guy from New Jersey was in my musical instrument masker's shop in Williamsburg. He mentioned that he had a bunch of his grand father's tools he'd like to get out of the way. He had no idea what make they were,or how many. I offered him $75.00,hoping they didn't turn out to be linoleum block chisels or something else worthless. When he got home,we talked on the phone. He couldn't see names on the tools. They were black. Then,he started wanting to keep certain tools without any reduction of the price. I was getting nervous as he kept finding things to keep. Finally they got here,and I was greatly relieved to see that they were nearly all Addis tools,and there were over 75 of them. They had terrible home made handles,which I replaced. Those old carving tools were sold without handles. I got them all cleaned up. Except for minor pitting,they were good,useful tools.

I didn't see that the names were hard to read. The guy just didn't have interest enough to look closely.

Another time in the 80's,I was at Kutztown flea market,with $500.00 on me. Right off the bat,I came across this large young man who had many dozen pattern maker's chisels and gouges,and very nice old Disston saws spread out on a big tarp. I asked the price. He said something like $24.00 each. Well,I regretted blowing all my money just at the start of the treasure hunt. I picked out over 24 carving tools and said how much? He screwed his face around for a while,and said $150.00!!!! Obviously he couldn't deal with numbers. I paid him off!

I'm glad I got many of my tools years ago. The tool collectors were in full swing,but prices hadn't gone through the roof yet.

[george wilson]

I went back to the link Chris provided above. If any of you will go there and only read my posts,I challenge you to come up with proof that I made personal attacks on Schwarz(sp?). Yet,a few guys accused me of doing just that. I think if I had,some of my posts would have been edited by the moderators,at least.

[Mel Fulks]

I sold a number of Addis tools to a vintage tool dealer about 20 years ago for 30$ each. I think he already had a buyer,he was certainly glad to get them.

[Chris Griggs]

I went back to the link Chris provided above. If any of you will go there and only read my posts,I challenge you to come up with proof that I made personal attacks on Schwarz(sp?). Yet,a few guys accused me of doing just that. I think if I had,some of my posts would have been edited by the moderators,at least.

Jeez. I probably shouldn't have linked to that. I just skimmed it and while I remembered that it got sorta intense, I forgot about that part of the thread. Actually though, while I do remember there were some seemingly personal attacks, or at least accusations of such, I agree yours really were not attacks. Personally, pretty much anytime I've seen you get accused of attacks or being harsh, I disagree. I think you give very matter of fact comments based on lots of experience and some folks mis-interpret it as being very harsh. Its difficulty to convey emotion in writing, and thus people often read good constructive criticism as yelling when its intended as constructive commentary. When I read forums and blogs I always try to imagine the person speaking very calmly, it helps keep writing which lacks tone and facial expression in perspective.

[Jim Foster]

I think Chris Schwarz's chisel monogamy goal is based on his needs. He travels with his tools all over; has a fairly small organized shop he is usually away from; tends to focus on similar projects for long periods of time. I think it makes sense for him not to house or tote tools he does not find himself using.

[george wilson]

I'm one of those "just in case" types,and an inveterate tool pig!! I have substantially moderated my tool buying in the past several years,because I'm not as active these days,and already have more than I need. Every year there is a tool and antiques show in Richmond,which I go to. I might buy 1 tool,sometimes none as the prices seem pretty high.

Chris,I didn't mean to insinuate you were accusing me of anything. Just re reading through the 6 pages,I saw that some were doing just that. The proof is that my posts were not edited,though.

[Jim Koepke]

Jason,

Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't indicate a location. You may live near another member who would welcome you to test drive tools you are thinking of purchasing.

jtk

[Jason Garland]

Thanks, Jim. I just signed up a few days ago and didn't realize I could tweak my profile, which I'll do shortly.

I'm in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, a long way from a good lumber yard apparently, as that's my biggest pain right now -- finding hardwoods at a reasonable price (or at all). If anyone knows of somewhere within reasonable driving distance, do let me know.



Jason,

Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't indicate a location. You may live near another member who would welcome you to test drive tools you are thinking of purchasing.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

I also think the emphasis on making shop gizmos is a misdirection. With only so many shop hours available each week, I want to make stuff to use outside the shop.

The purpose of shop gizmos is not to make them so much as it is to save time when they are used allowing one to be more productive with what few hours one can spend in their shop.

A bench hook takes very little time to make. It has saved me lots of time holding pieces while they are being sawn.

My saw horses/tables/benches have also saved my time and trouble plus they are at the right height to sit on at my bench.

Shooting boards have also saved time squaring up ends on pieces compared to marking and squaring with just a block plane.

A drilling guide for locating shelf pins in cabinets saved a lot of time over laying out and marking the panels.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Thanks, Jim. I just signed up a few days ago and didn't realize I could tweak my profile, which I'll do shortly.

I'm in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, a long way from a good lumber yard apparently, as that's my biggest pain right now -- finding hardwoods at a reasonable price (or at all). If anyone knows of somewhere within reasonable driving distance, do let me know.

Good luck with that if hardwoods don't grow locally. Getting *good* hardwoods (not narrow boards and with good grain orientation) for a decent price will probably be the most difficult thing for you in terms of woodworking.

Do a general search for "lumber" on craigslist every couple of days and maybe you can find someone liquidating stuff. that's the best way I've found so far to get really nice stuff inexpensively, but i'm in the middle of hardwood paradise.

[Jason Garland]

Well said, I think you've pinned him down pretty well. Certainly I did note some sarcasm in the posts here, etc. But I did notice on the actual blog post itself that there were some rather intense conversations about it, which struck me as rather funny. There seems to be some folks upset because he's changed his mind and his advice is different than what he was advising several years ago. Well... experience tends to do that to the best of us. He even notes this directly in the article, saying "My advice use to be.... but now it's this...."

For someone like myself, the issues was this: I'm about to drop a lot of money on tools I don't know how to use and I want to spend my money well AND be able to work wood as soon as possible. How can I do that? In the end, I settled on hand tools because quality hand tools are relatively cheap compared to quality power tools, require less hassle to get and set up (think weight), require less space, etc. I turned to blogs to get the advice I needed, and Schwarz was obviously up there (but certainly not the only person -- I love Peter Follansbee, Phillip Lowe, Roy Underhill, Logan's Cabinet Shoppe, and many others). Some of the best advice I got concerning saws was Schwarz's recommendation that you start off with a Stanley Fat Max for $12 at the local home center. Sure, not the best saw in the world, but for a beginner that thing cuts through wood like crazy! I've since moved on to nicer saws, but I still pull it out for cutting rough stock or take it with me to the lumber yard in case I need to cut something to fit into my small car.

I think what I appreciate about Chris is that he doesn't really seem to be motivated by money -- or if he is, then he's a terrible businessman. He could easily sign an athlete-style contract with someone like Lie-Nielsen and do nothing but tout their stuff on all his DVDs, etc. But he doesn't. He instead sends you to Home Depot for a Fat Max. On his recent Shaker side table DVD for Lie-Nielsen, you can watch him using a number of shop made tools or Veritas tools right there in the Lie-Nielsen shop! Obviously no touting going on there! (I recall watching a Rob Cosman video recently where he basically stopped every time he picked up a tool to tell you about how you could get this awesome tool for only $XX.XX at your local Woodcraft store.)

At any rate, it's an interesting conversation. Hopefully no one takes it TOO seriously. :)


I completely agree with you (hopefully my "Jim Bode" conspiracy came across as obviously being tongue-in-cheek). I found his advice very valuable when I was first starting out. Sure there are going to folks who follow everything he say blindly without trying for themselves to see what works best for them, but I certainly have no issue taking the things I like and leaving behind what I don't. I think of CS as a professional/expert hobbyist and that's how I take the things he writes about. Its not the same as the way I would take something George says which I usually think of as "the right" way to do something, more along the lines of "given that I'm a hobbiest, on a budget, in a small shop, that's less equipt than I want is there a way X recommendation from CS can benefit me". I don't really read his blog much anymore (he does mostly write for total beginners and one does tend to "outgrow" his a lot of his writing as one forms their own preferances), and I'm not about to start selling off my chisels, but I still like CS. He's a hobbyist giving advice to other hobbyist, about what works and what doesn't, and whats a good value, especially when you are knew to the hobby and if one takes that for what it is its quite valuable. He gives with no other information a good place to start. Yes, he makes a living at it, so what. That doesn't automatically mean its all garbage. Sure there are some things he writes about that seem sorta pointless, he clearly also a bit of a researcher/experimenter at heart, and it seems to me that he just kinda writes about what his interest is at the time and gives his current views. I can think of many worse ways to make a living, and its not like I'm required to read his blog or buy his books.

Every few months someone will post a question about a somewhat out there suggestion of his and then it turns into a big long debate.

I'll just save everyone time and link to the thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?199178-Toothing-your-bench) where this was discussed last time (that one was a doozy). Now we can all just go to that thread find a post that best fits our feelings about CS and then just copy and paste it into this thread. :) Much more convenient this way.

[dan sherman]

I went back to the link Chris provided above. If any of you will go there and only read my posts,I challenge you to come up with proof that I made personal attacks on Schwarz(sp?). Yet,a few guys accused me of doing just that. I think if I had,some of my posts would have been edited by the moderators,at least.


A few points:

1. Ending your first post with "And,no,this isn't about personalities. It's just a silly idea." is an attack. By saying the Idea is silly, you are indirectly saying the person who put it forth is silly as well. Did you mean it that way?

2. it wasn't Chris's Idea, he was writing about something someone else did and he was trying.

3. Just because the mods didn't edit your posts, doesn't mean your in the right, they might have had better things to do.

4. Patrick Edwards scrubs his bench top http://woodtreks.com/design-build-traditional-woodworking-workbench-tail-shoulder-leg-vises/1651/ http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/GalleryOW.htm

[David Barnett]

A few points:

1. Ending your first post with "And,no,this isn't about personalities. It's just a silly idea." is an attack. By saying the Idea is silly, you are indirectly saying the person who put it forth is silly as well. Did you mean it that way?


Dan, I don't one way or the other care what anyone thinks of Chris Schwarz. I happen to like the guy, respect him, think he's a talented writer even though I don't particularly follow his advice and idiosyncratic ways of doing things—it took a long time for me to develop my own quirks and I'm not apt to change now.

That said, your statement asserting:

"And, no, this isn't about personalities. It's just a silly idea." is an attack.

is fallacious. One can find another's idea silly without inferring or alleging that the person is silly, incompetent, without worth, trivial or stupid. I can, and often do, self-deprecatingly say "Now that was dumb," about my own actions—it happens a lot. I screw up all the time, but that doesn't make me an unredeemable screw-up. I can say "that was a silly notion" about otherwise profoundly educated and accomplished persons without in any way mapping such judgments on that person's worth or oeuvre.

And were I to say about your pronouncement on George's statement isn't about personalities—is just a silly idea, it isn't an attack on you and does not mean I think you're at core a silly person; just wrong, and that you may have reacted more emotionally than logically to George's opinion.

I'm fully capable of getting wee-weed over much less, and few who know me would find me silly, stupid or beyond redemption when I occasionally kneejerk and act silly or stupid.

I just don't think George meant that as a personal attack. From what I've read, George is opinionated, yes, but not mean. For the record and without malice, I, too, think toothing one's benchtop silly—nothing more, nothing less.

It's a shame such ill feelings from prior history got dredged up on an otherwise amusing thread. Although I joined in 2006, I've just recently begun posting and reading regularly and had hoped for less contentiousness.

[Chris Griggs]

Dan, I don't one way or the other care what anyone thinks of Chris Schwarz. I happen to like the guy, respect him, think he's a talented writer even though I don't particularly follow his advise and idiosyncratic ways of doing things—it took a long time for me to develop my own quirks and I'm not apt to change now.

That said, your statement asserting:

"And, no, this isn't about personalities. It's just a silly idea." is an attack.

is fallacious. One can find another's idea silly without inferring or alleging that the person is silly, incompetent, without worth, trivial or stupid. I can, and often do, self-deprecatingly say "Now that was dumb," about my own actions—it happens a lot. I screw up all the time, but that doesn't make me an unredeemably screw-up. I can say "that was a silly notion" about otherwise profoundly educated and accomplished without in any way mapping such judgments on that person's worth or oeuvre.

And were I to say about your pronouncement on George's statement isn't about personalities—it's just a silly idea, it isn't an attack on you and does not mean I think at core you're a silly person; just wrong, and that you may have reacted more emotionally than logically to George's opinion.

I'm fully capable of getting wee-weed over much less, and few who know me would find me silly, stupid or beyond redemption when I occasionally kneejerk and act silly or stupid.

I just don't think George meant that as a personal attack. From what I've read, George is opinionated, yes, but not mean. For the record and without malice, I, too, think toothing one's benchtop silly—nothing more, nothing less.

It's a shame such ill feelings from prior history got dredged up on an otherwise amusing thread. Although I joined in 2006, I've just recently begun posting and reading regularly and had hoped for less contentiousness.

Yes. This....

My bad for linking to it. It had the opposite effect as was intended. I thought it might be amusing to look back at. For the record Dave, i hope you continue to post regularly. I find your contributions both informative and amusing!

[David Barnett]

Yes. This....

My bad for linking to it. It had the opposite effect as was intended. I thought it might be amusing to look back at. For the record Dave, i hope you continue to post regularly. I find your contributions both informative and amusing!

Chris, I didn't think it was necessarily bad to link to that thread, just that in this instance it aroused defensiveness in persons of all stripes. It's that reaction that I find discomforting, and I'm just as guilty of such behavior as anyone. I rather enjoyed rereading some of that thread, by the way. I suppose when people's icons, they're heroes incur criticism, it's human nature for some to react as if they were vicariously attacked. Happens. I certainly don't mind the occasional polemic, though, as long as it stays somewhat on track as is tempered with wit and respectfulness.

And thanks for the kind words, Chris—so far so good. Writing takes the edge off my current challenges and limitations.

[Jim Koepke]

One can find another's idea silly without inferring or alleging that the person is silly

Isn't that what is meant by arguing the message and not the messenger?

Take two steps back and call again in the morning.

jtk

[george wilson]

Dan: David pretty much said it all. Yes,I am opinionated. I have been a professional wood and metal worker for a very long time,and I think I have a right to have opinions. I have been lucky to have access to a museum's books and other master craftsmen for just short of 40 years. Before that,I was a woodworker judged in 1970 to hired be as a Master Craftsman in Williamsburg. A lot of things people will say about things are their opinions. My opinions are largely formed from experience.

Dismiss me as an "arrogant old man" if you will. Your loss if you do not wish to heed my advice. That's not a brag,it's just the truth. I am not an article or book writer. I was too busy making things. I haven't photographed much of my work at all,and mostly bad pictures at that. I wish I had done more documentation of my work. Many have urged me to write a book,but I am just not inclined to be a writer or blogger. Maybe if I was,I'd have a big following. That seems to be what it often takes.

I don't know if you can see pictures of my work that I have posted here. I wish you could if you can't. You can Google George Wilson harpsichord if you wish to see a movie we made in 1974 of making a spinet and a violin in 6 parts. You can also Google George Wilson guitars and see a site where I ,among others,am featured with some pictures. I expect you will not want to do that though if you just prefer to not like me. It's o.k. either way.

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks, Jim. I just signed up a few days ago and didn't realize I could tweak my profile, which I'll do shortly.

I'm in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, a long way from a good lumber yard apparently, as that's my biggest pain right now -- finding hardwoods at a reasonable price (or at all). If anyone knows of somewhere within reasonable driving distance, do let me know. Makes me glad I live in Ohio. A fellow woodworker is selling me some leftover red oak and white oak at $1.25 per board foot for stuff 8 inches and wider, 8 foot and longer...few small knots, but I can work around that....and welcome to the Creek!

[Chris Hachet]

The purpose of shop gizmos is not to make them so much as it is to save time when they are used allowing one to be more productive with what few hours one can spend in their shop.

A bench hook takes very little time to make. It has saved me lots of time holding pieces while they are being sawn.

My saw horses/tables/benches have also saved my time and trouble plus they are at the right height to sit on at my bench.

Shooting boards have also saved time squaring up ends on pieces compared to marking and squaring with just a block plane.

A drilling guide for locating shelf pins in cabinets saved a lot of time over laying out and marking the panels.

jtk....and all of this stuff often saves time over having to set up and jig up power tools to do the same jobs.

[dan sherman]

That said, your statement asserting:

"And, no, this isn't about personalities. It's just a silly idea." is an attack.
is fallacious. One can find another's idea silly without inferring or alleging that the person is silly, incompetent, without worth, trivial or stupid.


Fair enough, I could be a little sensitive to this, because I have to spend way to much time dealing with a certain type of academic, and this is how they take swipes at each other. Very passive aggressive an indirect. Also probably because I don't care much for George's style.


With regards to chisels, I think Chris should have focused more on how people should figure out what chisels they need, than on saying you only need 1 or 2 or 3 or any other small number. Like someone else said Chris only needs one or two because he is prominently doing moderate sized case work right now.



Although I joined in 2006, I've just recently begun posting and reading regularly and had hoped for less contentiousness.
It's not that bad in general, but certain topics or people causes more than others. Sharpening, and import tools are two things that come to mind.

[Chris Hachet]

Dan: David pretty much said it all. Yes,I am opinionated. I have been a professional wood and metal worker for a very long time,and I think I have a right to have opinions. I have been lucky to have access to a museum's books and other master craftsmen for just short of 40 years. Before that,I was a woodworker judged in 1970 to hired be as a Master Craftsman in Williamsburg. A lot of things people will say about things are their opinions. My opinions are largely formed from experience.

Dismiss me as an "arrogant old man" if you will. Your loss if you do not wish to heed my advice. That's not a brag,it's just the truth. I am not an article or book writer. I was too busy making things. I haven't photographed much of my work at all,and mostly bad pictures at that. I wish I had done more documentation of my work. Many have urged me to write a book,but I am just not inclined to be a writer or blogger. Maybe if I was,I'd have a big following. That seems to be what it often takes.

I don't know if you can see pictures of my work that I have posted here. I wish you could if you can't. You can Google George Wilson harpsichord if you wish to see a movie we made in 1974 of making a spinet and a violin in 6 parts. You can also Google George Wilson guitars and see a site where I ,among others,am featured with some pictures. I expect you will not want to do that though if you just prefer to not like me. It's o.k. either way....you are so far ahead of me in talent it isn't even funny. Nice to have you on board at the creek, sir!

[george wilson]

Dan,you do not know me. Are you willing to make an effort to do so? I have offered you 2 ways to learn a bit about me unless your emotions don't permit it.

I want a smooth bench because I use soft spruce on guitars,violins,etc. It is very easily scratched. When I sweep the bench top and wipe it with my bare hand,I want to know there is not a little piece of abrasive in the surface of the bench,waiting for some vibration to shake it out of a toothed groove to scratch the top.

Hopefully this makes sense to you.

[Jim Koepke]

My opinions are largely formed from experience.

Dismiss me as an "arrogant old man" if you will. Your loss if you do not wish to heed my advice. That's not a brag,it's just the truth.

What is that old saying, "if it is the truth, it ain't bragging?"

George, you have every right to tell the truth. If others think it is bragging, then it is their loss.

jtk

[David Weaver]

It would be the biggest shame that has occurred on this hand tool board in the 6 or 7 years that I've been on here for individuals to complain about george's posts or try to get him caught up in an argument such that we would be deprived of the actual content value that he provides.

I have asked george for advice on tools and other such things offline *many* times and I can assure everyone that george is concerned in the utmost with people understanding that they can do good work with good design and they can do it with relatively the same effort as doing otherwise.

We have a way on these boards (not me, but the way boards work with complainers and people picking sides with external heroes) of driving off the people who actually have valuable professional opinions, and you won't appreciate it until you get to a point where you know your work needs a kick in the pants that only true professional work can provide.

Before anyone comes to this forum, picks favorites with writers or bloggers or whatever and chooses to argue with the professionals and report posts (or start nastiness that gets other people to report posts), please consider their value to the rest of us who are here a lot more and refrain from arguing. Arguing gets people in trouble, and 10 different people can come in and pick a fight with the *actual professionals* crap on the board and leave, and the moderators are left pointing the fingers at everyone who was involved in the spat. Do you get what I'm saying? If, for example, 5 schwarz fans come on and argue with george and report posts, a moderator from outside of HT gets the notifications and assumes george is responsible. How would they know otherwise unless they saw all of the contributions from the actual professionals? They don't. Think about it.

[Steve Voigt]

Good Lord, can we just go back to talking about chisel monogamy, or lack thereof? Thanks.

[george wilson]

Jim,it is true that many people get very attached to the writers of magazines and articles. I haven't met Schwartz,but I have met some other writers who are very well known and respected by their readers.

One came speak at a forum here some years ago,and was so arrogant that he got every craftsman in Williamsburg upset with him. I did not go to the forum,but heard about him. He came into my shop before I even knew he was in a forum,and did a pretty good job of aggravating me,too. For example,he told me that he had been using the same thickness planer blades for 20 years. No kidding! He told me that when he ground them,he would put a grinding wheel on his table saw,and push the blades past it using the miter gauge as a cross guide. Well,sorry,but you have to USE a thickness planer to wear the blades out. And,I would NEVER,EVER want grinding grit inside my table saw,where it would bet embedded in the worm gear,trunnions,etc.,so they'd lap each other all the time.

This author is one who writes an article about every single project he makes,impressing his audience.

About these things,and others,the guy was unbelievably self righteous.

Another author,who wrote books about making musical instruments(he's now dead),came in to the instrument shop. He said "You're not one of those guys who believes that stuff about tuning tops and backs of violins,are you?" Well,I certainly WAS,and was pretty shocked that I'd have to explain WHY to him. He wanted to use my shop to write his next book about doing repair work. We did hardly ever repair. We made new instruments that were ordered(years of back logs!!). I advised him that Martin Guitars would be a better source as they constantly do repairs. I have no idea if he ever wrote that book since he died.

This is not to be directed to Schwartz. I haven't met him. But if someone thinks well known authors can't be arrogant,they'd better meet some and have extended conversations with them.

[Halgeir Wold]

The Internet is sometimes a strange place, as in discussions like above you often don't know anything about the person you are discussing with. The Net is also probably the greatest source of misinformation these days, as it is so easy to boast one's opinion about this or that, based on what may or may not be solid and accurate information. I often find that in other fora I frequent, and sometimes also here, although this is mostly a forum of great information and advice.

Info, as from George, that is accurate, is too often dismissed as 'old geezers advice', because younger people sometimes have developed their own opinion on how to do things that are not the way it is best done. I passed 60 last winter, and having spent all my professional life in servicing and designing quite complicated and expesive electronic equipment, I have learned the hard way stuff that are never taught or written in text books. Sometimes when I have to correct yuonger collegues, it is not always correctly appreciated... ( although mostly it is.. ). In essence, no-one really likes to be proven wrong, but the ability to sift out real and accurate information seems to be a declining sport these days.

Passing on accurate information is never wrong, nor rude or condecending, but it is up to the recipient to interprete the info correctly.
When I read this forum, George's postings ( and a few others ) are the ones I looking for first when I log on here, unless I'm looking for answers to a specific problem.......
Keep up the good work George!

[george wilson]

I appreciate this outpouring of support,every one.

[dan sherman]

Dan,you do not know me. Are you willing to make an effort to do so? I have offered you 2 ways to learn a bit about me unless your emotions don't permit it.

relax a moment, I started writing my response to David almost 2 hours ago while I was at lunch and just hit submit a few minutes ago, and your response came in between those two times.



Dan: David pretty much said it all. Yes,I am opinionated. I have been a professional wood and metal worker for a very long time,and I think I have a right to have opinions. I have been lucky to have access to a museum's books and other master craftsmen for just short of 40 years. Before that,I was a woodworker judged in 1970 to hired be as a Master Craftsman in Williamsburg. A lot of things people will say about things are their opinions. My opinions are largely formed from experience.

Dismiss me as an "arrogant old man" if you will. Your loss if you do not wish to heed my advice. That's not a brag,it's just the truth. I am not an article or book writer. I was too busy making things. I haven't photographed much of my work at all,and mostly bad pictures at that. I wish I had done more documentation of my work. Many have urged me to write a book,but I am just not inclined to be a writer or blogger. Maybe if I was,I'd have a big following. That seems to be what it often takes.


I have no problem with opinions, I agree with a lot of your opinions in fact. What I take exception to from time to time, is how you present your opinions. Some times you do not quantify your opinions, or you dismiss someone else's opinion because it doesn't align with your experience. I'm not sure how to best word this, but I'm well aware of your credentials, but to me that doesn't make your opinions any more valid than someone else's. I take nothing on faith, this was pounded into me as a child and all the way through school and college.




I want a smooth bench because I use soft spruce on guitars,violins,etc. It is very easily scratched. When I sweep the bench top and wipe it with my bare hand,I want to know there is not a little piece of abrasive in the surface of the bench to scratch the top.

Hopefully this makes sense to you.

This is a good example of what I wish you did more of, it's an opinions with evidence supporting why your opinion is what it is.

[Paul McGaha]

It's good that you take the time to post here George. We all gain from it.

[george wilson]

So,my credentials don't make my opinions possibly more correct? That doesn't make much sense, The reason you go to a doctor,for example,is to get an educated opinion(and I'm NOT saying I'm a doctor). However,I am educated in wood and metal working.I try to not just make up opinions out of the clear,blue sky. I didn't know I had to spell it out like the spruce top. It seemed obvious to me(and I did mention grit getting in the toothed surfaces in post #25 in the link that Chris Griggs gave) that grit could be caught.

I recommend the use of the bare hand,if I must explain that,after brushing(I prefer vacuuming) surfaces,is it's the only way to get real sensory data on how clean a surface is. Machinists use it when scraping precision surfaces between applications of high spot blue. They need to be rid of every speck of scraped metal dust before applying a master precision straight edge to check surfaces. I taught that to Dynamic Engineering Co.,to aid them in making wind tunnel models.

[David Barnett]

Fair enough, I could be a little sensitive to this, because I have to spend way to much time dealing with a certain type of academic, and this is how they take swipes at each other. Very passive aggressive an indirect. Also probably because I don't care much for George's style.
Dan, I can fully appreciate and respect that. Passive-aggressive innuendo is rife in academia.


Also probably because I don't care much for George's style.

Candid and entirely valid, as well. I sure as heck know by now that I rub more than my cat the wrong way.


With regards to chisels, I think Chris should have focused more on how people should figure out what chisels they need, than on saying you only need 1 or 2 or 3 or any other small number. Like someone else said Chris only needs one or two because he is prominently doing moderate sized case work right now.

Good point. There are superbly skilled luthiers in Paracho, MX that can make a classical guitar with little more than the regional cuchillo. By comparison, I'd require a panoply of tools to do the same work.


It's not that bad in general, but certain topics or people causes more than others. Sharpening, and import tools are two things that come to mind.

Sharpening's always good for a rise, right. I don't care what someone chooses to use, but I enjoy talking about what I like and why. Assertions that there's only one right way to do anything can spark powder keg.

[David Weaver]

but to me that doesn't make your opinions any more valid than someone else's.

Woodworking and toolmaking aren't college. George's opinion is more valid than mine. It's more valid than mine because he has proven both in volume and in quality of work that he knows more. If your goal is to do something better, then the opinion of the folks who do it best has more credibility. It's universal. The college thing is a cute saying to get us to think and not just take things for granted, but it does not apply well with likelihood when it's easy to tell who is more likely to have the right answer.

More valid doesn't mean that george couldn't say something that's wrong while I said something that's right. I couldn't find such a case, though, when it comes to making tools or things out of wood.

[george wilson]

David,academic rivalry goes well beyond passive aggressiveness!! I went to many training classes,a requirement in the museum. Always ongoing education there. I went to a class where this (I can't use the word here!!!!) head of research was lecturing. He proceeded to make fun of everything that the head curator was going to say about a piece of furniture the next day. He called it ridiculous and ugly (it was probably worth over $200,000.00) To this guy,there was NOTHING important about history except social interactions. Objects just didn't count.

I said nothing,but really got steamed at his attitude. He must have seen the curator's notes for the next day.

IF this researcher had been REALLY EDUCATED,he would have had sense enough to know that the evolution of the style of objects was an integral part of the evolution of society throughout history. To me,he had a huge ego and a bad case of tunnel vision.He convinced himself early on that social matters were the only important thing. He never studied objects. His ego forced him into a narrower path as his career went along.

I haven't been spending as much time here since I am a moderator in a machinist's forum.

[dan sherman]

I didn't know I had to spell it out like the spruce top. It seemed obvious to me(and I did mention grit getting in the toothed surfaces in post #25 in the link that Chris Griggs gave) that grit could be caught.


in my opinion you should because it gives a proper frame of reference. In my shop for example I don't have to worry about the issue you face with grit, because I prominently work with woods at the other end of the Janka scale (Bubinga, Purpleheart, Osage, And my favorite Jatoba).

[george wilson]

Well,I guess your opinion didn't encompass all the possibilities.:)

Kidding aside,I'll bet there are more people here using soft woods than there are using hard woods because of the cost. But,that's just my opinion.

Last time I was in the Woodcraft Supply,I asked the owner why the woods cost more than the machines. He laughed and said it was true.

[dan sherman]

Kidding aside,I'll bet there are more people here using soft woods than there are using hard woods because of the cost. But,that's just my opinion.

Last time I was in the Woodcraft Supply,I asked the owner why the woods cost more than the machines. He laughed and said it was true.

I refuse to buy wood at Woodcraft or Rockler unless I absolutely have to, their prices are always way to high. If i want domestic I go to an actual mill by my parents in northern Indiana where i can get true rough sawn. I just wish I could get rough sawn exotics, but it always seems to be at least s2s.

[george wilson]

Fortunately,I am also a wood pig. I have about 1/2 of my basement full of wood,and several hundred bd. ft. in the shop. My journeyman Jon,likes to cut wood,and he is frequently given blown down trees. I gave him a poplar over 32" at the base. He saws it into gunstock blanks,and assorted lumber. I'd hate to have to pay what wood dealers want. At least guitars don't need much wood. Some of their hardwoods can be terribly expensive,though. Like Brazilian rosewood,ebony,etc.. I pigged that up too,years ago.

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, George, I've found that once I had most every tool you could reasonably need, I became a wood pig too. I especially love unique pieces or multiple boards from unique trees - like a maple that has curl and dark heart or ambrosia or feathering and on and on. In part, I became a wood pig because I like to try out new woods - to see what things like sassafras or sycamore and many other that one doesn't usually find at the lumber outlets are like. I just love wood.

[dan sherman]

Try Panga Panga Sean, it's like Wenge only with a lot tighter/smaller grain.

[george wilson]

Hare's a story: Wendell Castle was treating at Penland in about 1969. I taught there too for a few years. He was giving a slide lecture on his work, which mostly consisted of stacked up wood sculpted into roots that you were supposed to sit or recline on(OUCH!!!). He had made a 2 seater root that was made of Brazilian rosewood. It grew out of the ground.,dipped in the middle,and went back into the ground. It was about 5 feet long and about as tall as a chair seat. The root was over 8" in diameter. My point is,it had a LOT of Brazilian rosewood in it. Many board feet. Someone wanted to use it in the garden,so he was fiber glassing it to waterproof it. He PAINTED IT RED. One of the students had the NERVE (How DARE she ask!) to ask why he painted it red. He hautilly replied:"I don't have a LOVE affair with WOOD". I thought that was just disgraceful and a stupid waste of a valuable wood in the extreme. Sometimes he made them out of plywood and painted them. That was more reasonable,but just about everything he made used scads of wood. I've no idea what he's doing these days.

[george wilson]

My friend Bill Robertson,who makes very exceptional miniature furniture (at least 5 figures) uses Mopane ( I think that's right). It resembles miniature mahogany. He stores all his wood in sliding drawers he built under the stairs' treads in his shop. No storage problems for him!

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, always looking for more to get to know. Some of my favorite less common woods:

osage orange
apple
blue mahoe
lychee
apricot
holly
bloodwood
ornamental pear and cherry
vera

[Jim Matthews]

Being able to use a Stanly #5 Jack plane that I bought twenty years ago for $15 to joint the edges of boards rather than going out and spending a grand on a jointer really speeds the process along. And it's much nicer to listen to the radio while I work rather than figure out how I am going to buy and find a place for a $1200 Dust collector to go with the $1000 (corded-tailed) jointer.

Amen, Reverend.
That, for me, is the salient point.

I can have drawers full of usable hand tools and still be thousands (even tens of thousands) of dollars ahead on the cost to outfit my shop.

I amortize the cost of each piece of furniture, each cabinet I make. The cost of tooling and raw materials stacked against the cost of paying someone to make things for me.
Because I'm dreadfully slow, I'm breaking even at this point.

If I manage to retrofit both bathrooms, and my sons closets, I'll be money to the good.

I can't put a price on my satisfaction, and that's what drives a hobbyist, I suppose.
Pride of work, and all that...

[dan sherman]

Thanks, always looking for more to get to know. Some of my favorite less common woods:

osage orange


I have a 4" x 4" x 12" chunk of Osage at home that's going to become a smother at some point. :D

[Jim Matthews]

Your absence is noted, and you are missed.

I believe you're illustrating the essence of the problem in the publishing realm;
we're paying a great deal of attention to the writers, rather than the makers.

Having seen some photos of your work, and now owning something made by your hand
I can say that this forum is a better place, with you in it.

Jim
Westport, MA

[Jim Matthews]

The purpose of shop gizmos is not to make them so much as it is to save time when they are used allowing one to be more productive with what few hours one can spend in their shop.jtk

We're in agreement, there. Most of the things built in my shop are on your list.
What you won't find are elaborate cabinets, clamping jigs, router sleds and the like.

I would argue that beyond the items you've mentioned and a decent bandsaw - specialized gizmos are little more than garage sale fodder.


It's my assertion that the bulk of shop tips and tricks are geared toward making the most out of powertools which have real limitations in their use.

Migrating to hand tools means that I need only mark a line, and cut to it - no fence required.

Look at the number of articles in the woodworking mags over the past year - how many are "shop aides" that have multiple applications?
How many are made for one process, and will never be used again?

[Hilton Ralphs]

My friend Bill Robertson,who makes very exceptional miniature furniture (at least 5 figures) uses Mopane ( I think that's right).

The Mopane tree is indigenous to the area where I grew up In Zimbabwe. Nothing quite delicious as a fried mopane worm.

[David Barnett]

David, academic rivalry goes well beyond passive aggressiveness!! ... To this guy, there was NOTHING important about history except social interactions. Objects just didn't count.

I, too, have witnessed encounters more openly combative than subtle, George. Your example is typical of rivalries or turf wars manifesting in selective exclusion, "tunnel vision", as you say, which makes clear the biases and narrow domains of insecure fiefdoms.

I attended a real post-graduate donnybrook where defending one's doctoral dissertation moved beyond a vestigial formality to the real thing. Two advisors previously dismissed by the defending candidate showed up and waged a vicious attack on both candidate and his final reader-advisor, and they might have prevailed had not they turned on each other. Quite a show it was.

The candidate, a friend now famous is in his field, has been hounded by the carryover since. I've been involved in my share of post-academic and occupational competitiveness but it's been for the most part good natured and respectful. Even so, I was entirely ready to ditch it all for the quieter, saner milieu of the atelier. I've consulted a few times since but never jumped back into the fray.


If this researcher had been REALLY EDUCATED, he would have had sense enough to know that the evolution of the style of objects was an integral part of the evolution of society throughout history.

It's amazing how one can ignore essence, fraction their desired distillate and render meaningless by removing or ignoring context, like tweezing only a single DNA helix to examine just one half of an organism.


I haven't been spending as much time here since I am a moderator in a machinist's forum.

I've strolled over there now and then—haven't posted, though—as it is friendly and more aligned to what I do these days—machining for jewelry and objects d'art on Taigs and Prazis. No need (or room) for the big stuff since moving back to Florida. Most of my stuff's ancient replica work in high-karat golds, anyway; granulation, fused loop-in-loop, and so on—so fairly pre-machine age.

[george wilson]

Thank you Jim. Enjoying the plane?

David, I hear you!!! Yes,the site I moderate is friendly. There are 2 others that are a constant dog fight. I stopped going to 1 at all,except for a quick look once in a while. Not fond of the other either. I tried a bit of granulation while teaching at Penland.

[Frank Drew]

Wendell Castle ... I've no idea what he's doing these days.

George,

I don't know what he's doing now but he stopped doing that stacked stuff and, at least for a number of years, started doing extremely high-end furniture, piano cases, etc. Very luxe stuff, like a modern day incarnation of Ruhlmann's work. I think he had a bunch of very talented assistants doing most of the actual work.

I agree about the waste with the rosewood, but I've only seen pictures of his stacked pieces out of much more common woods.

[george wilson]

Since I read he;'s about 80,no doubt assistants are needed. With the prices of woods like any kind of rosewood these days,stacking those woods is a thing of the past.

[george wilson]

David,objects evolved as taste changed in society. Objects didn't evolve(except possibly fashions in attire) as rapidly as today. I know less about attire,but in researching flintlock pistols,I spent months researching minutia in them before making one, It looked like about every 15 years or so,details would change. Towards the end of the 18th.C.,pistols started looking more sleek and racier(Sort of the equivalent of racing stripes on today's cars.) I don't know if this last sentence makes much sense! Looking at the objects of the later 18th. C.,I get a sense of new optimism growing. Of course,this new optimism was found in the monied classes,who were the only ones who could afford fine traveling or dueling pistols.

In clothing,waist coats became shorted and rather sportier. The longer tails of gentleman's coats were shortened. Generally looking more refreshing(at least to my eyes),than the more formal,heavier looking attire of the mid century . I'm doing a bad job of expressing myself here,but I just need more time to think about it.

My point is: objects reflected social attitudes. They should not be omitted because everything changed together. Only a stubborn academic with tunnel vision would ignore that. Someone trying to increase his own power.

[Chris Hachet]

David,academic rivalry goes well beyond passive aggressiveness!! I went to many training classes,a requirement in the museum. Always ongoing education there. I went to a class where this (I can't use the word here!!!!) head of research was lecturing. He proceeded to make fun of everything that the head curator was going to say about a piece of furniture the next day. He called it ridiculous and ugly (it was probably worth over $200,000.00) To this guy,there was NOTHING important about history except social interactions. Objects just didn't count.

I said nothing,but really got steamed at his attitude. He must have seen the curator's notes for the next day.

IF this researcher had been REALLY EDUCATED,he would have had sense enough to know that the evolution of the style of objects was an integral part of the evolution of society throughout history. To me,he had a huge ego and a bad case of tunnel vision.He convinced himself early on that social matters were the only important thing. He never studied objects. His ego forced him into a narrower path as his career went along.

I haven't been spending as much time here since I am a moderator in a machinist's forum.I work on the Facilities crew for a small local private university. There are a lot of people in academia who have the opposite attitude and are really rather humble. It is a shame arrogant (can't use the word here) ruin it for the majority in certain places...and that is not a stab at any one here on this forum!

[Chris Hachet]

We're in agreement, there. Most of the things built in my shop are on your list.
What you won't find are elaborate cabinets, clamping jigs, router sleds and the like.

I would argue that beyond the items you've mentioned and a decent bandsaw - specialized gizmos are little more than garage sale fodder.


It's my assertion that the bulk of shop tips and tricks are geared toward making the most out of powertools which have real limitations in their use.

Migrating to hand tools means that I need only mark a line, and cut to it - no fence required.

Look at the number of articles in the woodworking mags over the past year - how many are "shop aides" that have multiple applications?
How many are made for one process, and will never be used again?This really sums up why I enjoy hand tool use more than power tool use. My family likes to cycle, and I have limited space in my garage as we have a lawn mower, and six bikes, amount other things. I prefer to cut to a line on a finished piece rather than cutting up expensive Baltic birch plywood to make one time use jigs! Besides, I don't like the feel of plywood....

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Certainly there are places where hand tools shine because of lack of jigs - trying to find a way to secure work to cut or drill a compound angle for something like a table leg, vs. just working to the line with a hand tool comes to mind, as does beveling the underside of a curved table-top with a jack plane vs. the somewhat-terrifying me (although I'm table-saw averse) jig that FWW featured last year. (http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/33189/video-clever-sled-for-curved-bevels-on-the-tablesaw)

I think a lot of it, however, is more an artifact of the method of work than the tools used - the willingness to work the pieces to each other rather than try and fit a production mold to make everything interchangeable. I think the former method almost requires handtools in many instances to sneak the final bit of perfection, but I don't think it precludes power tools, either.

[dan sherman]

I think a lot of it, however, is more an artifact of the method of work than the tools used - the willingness to work the pieces to each other rather than try and fit a production mold to make everything interchangeable. I think the former method almost requires handtools in many instances to sneak the final bit of perfection, but I don't think it precludes power tools, either.

I think the wood in question, as well as the type and quantity of work also plays a big role. My current projects (a pair of end tables) is made from Jatoba. the legs are heavily curved/sculpted and made from 8/4 stock, as well as having 4 mortises per leg. No way was I making 32 large mortises by hand in something as hard as Jatoba. The rough work was done with a spiral bit in the plunge router and chisels did clean-up if needed.

[Chris Hachet]

I think the wood in question, as well as the type and quantity of work also plays a big role. My current projects (a pair of end tables) is made from Jatoba. the legs are heavily curved/sculpted and made from 8/4 stock, as well as having 4 mortises per leg. No way was I making 32 large mortises by hand in something as hard as Jatoba. The rough work was done with a spiral bit in the plunge router and chisels did clean-up if needed.Which is exactly what I do...often use the drill press or the hollow chisel mortise machine, and then clean up and fit with Chisels.

[John Piwaron]

It's not a popular view, but that average human isn't very smart.

I've been saying that for years. :)

[Hilton Ralphs]

I've been saying that for years. :)

Not sure what you mean? :)

[Frederick Skelly]

George, I always read and consider your posts. I appreciate your hard earned expertise and your willingness to share it. Bet everyone else does too.

Fred

[Tony Wilkins]

George, I always read and consider your posts. I appreciate your hard earned expertise and your willingness to share it. Bet everyone else does too.

Fred
Ditto here

[John Piwaron]

Not sure what you mean? :)

About the average person just accepting what they're told. Not thinking it through for themselves.

[Jim Neeley]

When you consider that (by definition) half of the people are below-average intelligence :eek:, some of what we see makes a little more sense. :D

[David Barnett]

When you consider that (by definition) half of the people are below-average intelligence :eek:, some of what we see makes a little more sense. :D

Right, Jim—and the lo-fo (low information) populace is so easily manipulated.

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

—Desiderius Erasmus

[george wilson]

I would not say that most people are not smart. Many just like to be led. Most people just try to get through life with as little trouble as possible. They learn their jobs,many of which require good minds,and do a lot of stuff that I don't know how to do because I have no interest in their area.

When it comes to the finer arts,I do think that most people are asleep. I can show something like my lion's head violin neck to most people,and they just glaze over it. They just have not developed a frame of reference for that sort of thing. The same is true with music. Some of my best friends have absolutely no idea if music is being well played. Yet,they are extremely intelligent on some other directions.

I was at a dance many years ago where 2 bands were taking turns playing. The band that played really well was not liked by most of the young people there. They thought that the band was BAD. Why? because the other band jumped around a lot while playing badly! I was amazed that the crowd couldn't hear that the other band played a lot better!

[Matt McCormick]

That's it...... I'm jumping around while I'm woodworking!!!

[Charlie Stanford]

Often when Chris Schwarz mentions a fondness for a tool, everyone wants to get one and the prices on ebay seem to escalate.

In a recent writing on his Popular Woodworking blog he mentions getting rid of all his chisels but a few. (The Theory of Chisel Monogamy)

Could it follow that we will be seeing a multitude of chisels soon on ebay from all of his readers emulating his ways?

jtk

Vacuousness comes to mind. And right after that, lemmings. The two do make an entertaining combination, no?